Melee DPS not allowed anywhere, Thx SE.

I agree with Florence, ranged dps...well I can't speak for SMN as I have no experience...but BRD and BLM you really can just bang your hand on the keyboard and put out OK damage. Why have DRG miss something and have their DPS drop like crazy or have a MNK run outta range to avoid a mechanic and possibly mess up a GL or positional.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

SE error was to make the ranged soo easy to play when you have a ton of stuff to keep track as melee for get the best dps of your class.

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People forget so quickly that Bard doesn't just have to dps and avoid AoE. We have to keep our eyes on mana as well, and if we were lucky we would have some way of telling when to play Army Paeon. Sure we don't proc like a monk or need positioning to max DD but remember we played your class to 15 to become a bard, and it was an experience. Ranged DD can be played just as poorly as a bad monk or bad lancer. But remember we needed to take lancer to 32 to get blood for blood. Bards do understand what melee are going through. And to be honest in an 8 man there is no reason I shouldn't be seeing a lancer, monk, black mage along with me in every fight. At least then I might get to pop TP song and rotate through my stupid song rotation, watch my mana and the healers mana, avoid AoE, do less DD and get one shotted because we also have low HP. :) Currently, if people are doing this they are sacrificing very important DPS limit breaks, lowering LB meter charging, and making the fight longer. This is why I only run with my FC now. I just can't stand the requirements of other players. ilvl 74 for Ifrit Hard, only ranged this or that. People are just unreasonable and that we both agree on.

Just seems like players , now gave up and Just sandbox the set ups now. Since players not hearing any words or anything from square. Most of the melee the delay to dodge stuff not worth the time anymore. Even a low damage rng better, The range jobs destroy and better to just to have a range attack to dodge attacks.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

Party finder partys prefer ranged ? , suprise!...no. but dont blame SE because of that, blame the players.

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SE shares part of the blame because their design choices precipitate how the playerbase behaves. One plays into the other.

Heck here is an idea SE add a defence song for me so any damage taken by melee dps is reduced by X at the cost of my dps. Now that is something I could get onboard with. Make it only apply to them (melee dps). More reason to take them in, mitigates their damage, gives bard another critical support decision to make, recharge mana or mitigate damage. Tough choice, could make or break the run. Make it negate the benefits of other songs if there is a 2 bard stack. There are several possible solutions to increase involvement of all classes.

Edit: Mind you this was what RoD was doing before the nerf.

False assumptions: Melee DPS are inferior in damage output than ranged/caster DPS due to mechanics of fight.
Correction: Melee DPS have higher dmg output POTENTIAL than Ranged/caster DPS

True Situation: Melee Dps aren't favored in fights due to their increased exposure to damage, resulting in more curing requirements/upkeep, adjusted battle strategies; generally more stress on both healers and melee dps (they dodge more)

Suggestion:
1. Increase resilience of Melee DPS in taking dmg from aoe attacks, and only aoe attacks.
2. All damage from mobs targeting a single target to remain the same (if Melee dps steal hate and are the target of an attack, allow them to continue to take huge damage)

Why?
To make melee dps less of a liability while also not pushing them into tank status. Solve the situation without making tanks obsolete, as was the case in XI through the introduction of extensive damage mitigation gear and abilities.

Result:
Melee DPS and Ranged/Casters are on even ground. Melee can take more hits and as a result die less, require less curing, while their dmg output potential remains the same. Casters are not effected. Balance achieved.

Fears/Concerns noting SE's previous way of Balancing Jobs:

1. SE introduce requirements in fights that FORCE Parties to take at least 1 melee DPS, thus reducing the communities ability to take control of their own strategies.

2.SE increase melee DPS Damage output even more, resulting in BLM, SMN and BRD becoming obsolete and doomed to ridicule (much like XI 2008sh-2012) further resulting in "Zerg zerg zerg - kill it before it kills us" strategies.

3.SE boost Melee DPS survivablity with 1 blanket stroke, resulting in WAR and PLD being obsolete (much like XI 2008sh-2014)

4. SE nerf Casters/ranged dps - which results in the game population ditching the caster jobs all together.


Challenges:
SE will have to put some more thought and effort into making content. Building fight dynamics will take more time. Introducing new jobs will require more study and analysis.

My opinion:
They should be doing that anyways. This is their Golden goose that makes them as much as 250-400 Million $USD a year in Revenue.

Square Enix - you should really be in a position today to reach out to the community, get 50-1000 NA and JP FFXI & FFXIV and MMO players, and brainstorm with them, test stuff together and critique yourselves.

Most players would do this for free. You can reward them in so many ways, you already know they're fans.
I don't know why you haven't already done this. Its not like it would be hard or even require any additional resources.

I am lost to all the holler in this thread. Melee DPS when done correctly trumps ranged DPS by leaps and bounds. So we're complaining about mechanics that are unfriendly to melee instead of just learning the fight? They (melee) should face increased danger because they can do much more damage. I don't see the flaw here.

Some people then suggested that Ranged DPS also needs mechanics in place to force them to dodge more also. A completely ridiculous statement as that would just serve to lower the ranged dps overall essentially hurting pretty much everyone.

Mechanics in this game're pretty lame anyway. 3 steps there, 3 steps back, wait, again.. learn it all over. There is no need for skill, etc. You nee to memorize boss like a rhyme, no fun. + The "no" melee lol....

Both my DRG and BLM are equally geared (with the DRG using an Allagan spear but lacks i90 neck/bracers) and the former is always more DPS outside of maybe one encounter (Garuda Ex is the only one that comes to mind since you potentially lose some DPS time due to moving out for WW).

Good melee destroys ranged when it comes to DPS. The OP is complaining about PFs filled with strangers that are wary of taking PUG melee because the large majority of them are just bad at the game and are unable to dodge a icecream truck going at 2mph if their life depended on it.

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Originally Posted by odie

. So weaken the BRD while moving.

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Yes, because clearly the answer is to nerf bards again.... *rolls eyes*

we have never said that melee DD can't beat ranged DD, but that it's easier to not use them and go full ranged...

Ranged = safe. Melee = extra damage/death for healers to worry about. Solution (IMHO) = form all melee party (just to spite the ranged), bring one less DD and one more healer, define your roles and hash out the details of who can/will do and stay consistent with your effort.

Biggest issue here is the "watch the video to learn" mentality of the community as a whole. People see the "easiest" strategy so they think its the only strategy. They see a party setup and try to emulate that party to achieve that success. Learn to work with what you have and make changes to your strategy rather than to the party composition. I hate to use movie lines but "Improvise, adapt, overcome". That's why people bitch about content so much. They keep doing the same thing ALL the time. Seize the opportunity to add new strategies to your knowledge pool.

Melee isn't that bad. Melee DPS has about 10%(DRG) and 20%(MNK) more damage than ranged in order to compensate for the disconnect and positional requirements that lower the DPS. MNK also has to deal with GL dropping off during mechanics like hellfire.

They also get the more useful Limit Break in most fights.

Maybe SE should do what blizzard did for WoW, which is make mechanics that only ranged has to deal with. On most bosses in WoW there's at least once mechanic that forces ranged DPS to deal with stuff while melee just stands there and punches the boss.

I play both ranged and melee classes (89brd,86drg) and looking from endgame perspective, the game is very well balanced, if played right, melee will do more dps than any range class in the game, period. Melee require more skill to play? Maybe, ranged classes have an edge over melee? of course not. Some people are just lazy and they think that standing in one spot shooting/casting waiting for red circle to pop at their feet is the most efficient way to do content, and they are just wrong.

problem is they got a a FPS shooter dodging with out the right, how put, Design to dodge for the melee. Unless you got high end CPU. High CPU might see it when person standing there ,but if on the mic there like dude or honey i am over here, and can see it if got 2 PC or one PC and ps3 playing and sometime might be jump lag. If on PS3 or avg CPU as a melee and even fiber speeds, you can not dodge fast enough unless got elite reflexes. If got headphones or surround sound sometimes you can hear the move and dodge before hand.

here a basic test to canda in monteal from WA state. http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3255421472 It not the speed it the design. This on a comcast connection with a outdated router, with out fiber. If straight stream it double the speed.

I just want a melee requiem so blms stop bragging about it.

Forgot something.

If you want to encourage a better mix of parties don't weaken or buff either individually. Give incentives like an extra LB box or faster LB build for melee jobs. Reward diversity by making it easier for more diverse groups to achieve the goal. Penalize stacked groups for LB damage...ie. if you have more than two of any job then 3rd only contributes 1/2 damage to LB 4th 1/4 etc.

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Originally Posted by Narcissus

*crying*

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100% being a bitch here. You already brought up two great options: do fights that melee can't live up to the DPS check for in a ranged class, or make your own party (people will join, as long as you forbid any further melee). Not really sure why you put that much time into the class anyway, to be honest. Every facet of the game was against melee the moment you hit 50. DRG was my first 50, and my first Relic (it's i83 now). Pretty quickly abandoned that ship after I saw the endgame here. Put your DRG on hold til Coil 2 (1 melee is always necessary in new content for the limit break), and spend some time on a ranged class/tank/healer. We have this lovely multi-class feature for a reason, put it to good use.

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Originally Posted by Mortikhan

Forgot something.

If you want to encourage a better mix of parties don't weaken or buff either individually. Give incentives like an extra LB box or faster LB build for melee jobs. Reward diversity by making it easier for more diverse groups to achieve the goal. Penalize stacked groups for LB damage...ie. if you have more than two of any job then 3rd only contributes 1/2 damage to LB 4th 1/4 etc.

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They already nerfed LB for stacking double jobs. This forces you to take 1 melee, or take a significant hit to your LB generation. Yes, Foe's Requiem on 3 casters more than makes up for that. But it's a step in the right direction.

People will always take the most direct, shortest path to a said destination or goal.
It is easier to deal with things by stacking Ranged.

It is far more efficient to have diversity. Melee DPS do outshine Ranged DPS. My Crystal Tower geared MNK does a little more damage on titan ex, ultima ex than an a I90 BIS BRD. But on other fights like Ifrit Extreme, Garuda Extreme the downtime spent dodging stuff and loosing Greased Lightning buff gives the same BRD the advantage to win. Do I think this is unfair? no, not at all. It is still fairly skewed towards my advantage as I'm a good 10 Ilvls below him.

The problem, I repeat, is not with Melee DPS damage output potential. It is with survivability. Melee DPS are "front-line" jobs. Casters/Ranged DPS are "back-line" jobs.

Melee DPS should be able to take more damage than they currently do. The game would be perfectly balanced if they would just increase melee dps defense or HP by 25%.

Seems the only thing that melees want is to nerf ranged. Your only solution to any problem u have is "oh nerf those brds and casters and maybe ppl will love me". I guess u want us all to quit so it can be a melee wonderland. How about coming up with solutions that don't penalize those who wish to range. I cannot help the lazy mentality of the community, but here is a tip, my friend who heals is always raging about a melee who choose to just stand in it. What is making ranged desirable to a healer is the promise of having to not heal so much on dps that they can focus on tank. It's only a promise mind u, ranged can step in it. So how about instead of hurting us ranged, in some instances when u have one or more melee u can get a certain buff like maybe even to the healer to regen mp. Or maybe give u melee a skill to increase mp regen? Idk just something that will not make Yoshi take it out on us that u melee feel unloved. If one child feels neglected is the answer to beat the other child?

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Originally Posted by Phen

I just want a melee requiem so blms stop bragging about it.

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You have one, its called disembowell and Dragon kick, does the same thing as requiem except you can use it when you dont have a bard.


I'm unsure of why people hate on melee dps so much. They are capable of more damage than blms, smns and brds. Period. This is fact.

Melee dps can top upwards of 340 in a good fight if they know what they are doing. a Good melee DPS will atleast hit 270+ on the worst of fights.

BLMS in a single target situation on the best of fights will top out at around 320 dps and on the worst of fights (titan ex) they can get around 250-260 DPS

I wouldnt count numbers from any fights outside of twintania, titan ex, ifrit ex, and garuda ex on these dps numbers.

In pugs I do see a lot of melee scoring well under 200 dps, the reason? they're really bad.

If you do give buffs to melees then the melees who do know what to do are going to be ridiculously OP

I actually think monks are in a pretty decent spot atm, especially compared to the miserable existence they had from ARR launch (they were seriously a garbage job not worth the effort to play). It's just that many encounters designs are extremely unfriendly to melee. But here are some things that might make them fit the encounter design a little better:

-- Change featherfoot back to how it was in 1.0. Let you automatically dodge one attack. Make the trait so that it shortens the cooldown if you successfully trigger an evade. This will allow us to have more control over our defenses instead of just praying to the RNG gods that we don't get fucked over by a wicked wheel. The featherfoot design from 1.0 was so much more elegant and satisfying.

-- Reduce the cooldown on perfect balance a bit so that keeping Greased Lightning up is not as big of a deal. I would like to be able to start a fight with perfect balance in good conscience, instead of thinking "well, I can basically only use it once per fight, so I should save it"

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If one child feels neglected is the answer to beat the other child?

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If you want balance then that has to be a part of it, lest you want to make every class a faceroll like bard is. I do agree that another class should get in on the MP regen gig eventually.:

Btw I don't hate all ranged. I think Black Mage should be top DPS along with monk, because come on, they are black mages. Even their questline mentions that they are supposed to be destruction incarnate.

Not sure if many people actually see what the problem is with melee in fights. It isn't that they can't do it, it is far from that. Melee can accomplish anything a ranged DPS can and ultimately in fights it is beneficial to at least have one to two melee in your party. That being said, the perspective of people isn't necessarily that melee are bad in the fights, it is simply that they are not appealing or convenient. Why bother with dealing with hardships of melee in Garuda EX when you can just stack ranged and completely take out the worry of dealing with Wicked Wheel, you can even take a healer out and put another DPS in.

What truly needs to be done is not increase/nerf jobs to justify the hardships, but the hardships itself needs to be balanced. If melee have obstacles to overcome, then ranged should have their own obstacles to endure. Funny thing is, I find Titan HM/EX to be the most balanced end game primal. Both melee and ranged have to deal with the same hardships for the most part and both have to have good dodging skills. In other fights, why does melee have to deal with the obstacles when ranged can sit back and occasionally watch out for something? I don't want them to make it easier on the melee, but I do want to see them make it equally hard on a ranged. I play both DRG and BRD and it is really night and day on the amount I have to deal with in a fight.

I don't agree with people when they say ranged is the only way to go, and having a melee in a group is pretty ideal for a optimal set up, but I do get why people would not want them in a party. A lot of people are willing to sacrifice optimal parties for the sake of convenience. This is the thinking that needs to change and it is the responsibility of both SE and the community to overcome this.

Think Vel hits it up pretty well, and I'd agree Titan is one of the better fights balance wise for taking melee and ranged both into the fight.. people will look for the least resistance, and that just happens to mean they won't take melee to Garuda much if at all, and it goes 50/50 for Ifrit (which amusingly I've cleared in 3+ BRD groups before..)

Just because people ask for ranged DPS only doesn't mean there's something wrong with melee dps.
It only means that they're ignorant.

There's no need to nerf or buff anything, people just need to learn and adapt to mechanics accordingly.

The problem is if you create stuff that ranged has to dodge or they die it will also apply to healers, so of course everything is gonna be melee range because sadly no fight can be beaten once your healers are down.

SoE should keep the OHK abilities to stuff people can "see" coming (red AoE markers, weight of land style markers, eruption markers, etc). Don't get me wrong here...had SOE not started the game off by teaching people to avoid the red stuff on the ground but by paying attention to boss abilities, I wouldn't be arguing for the above.


Edit : Maybe future bosses could use an aura or magical defense buff that would potentially one shot caster dps in the future. Similar to WW, it could come after the use of other abilities, but if the ranged aren't paying attention they've killed themselves (just like if athe melee don't pay attention, they get killed from WW). Casters in general don't have to worry about squat unless they see "red" under them. Exception being twintania's fireball and twister phase.

or you could not rely on other people to dictate how you play the game. join groups with your fc, or linkshells. dont have those? start your own, im sick of people using the df and party finder as an excuse for not getting groups. too many followers and not enough leaders in this community

Those are indeed ignorant groups. I've been Monk since launch. I've downed T5, all 3 Extremes.

Guess who's been top damage on every single fight, lol. That's not bragging, honestly, I'm just
saying that Melee are far from worthless on any content in this game. Mechanic/Dodging wise,
yes, it's lopsided. I can't argue that. But anyone who dismisses melee like that need to broaden
their horizons. =/

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Originally Posted by casker

....instead of just praying to the RNG gods that we don't get fucked over by a wicked wheel.

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Not directly aimed at you since multiple people have bought it up but is it really that difficult to wait till Wicked Wheel has been cast before pressing jump/shoulder tackle?

The unwritten rule of every tri-roll MMO ever is that the only classes/jobs invited to all content are tanks and white mages. Dems the rules.

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Originally Posted by Grembo

Not directly aimed at you since multiple people have bought it up but is it really that difficult to wait till Wicked Wheel has been cast before pressing jump/shoulder tackle?

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Difficult? No. More to the point is if the tank has Garuda or Surpana during the tornado phases in a place that we can dodge it. Sometimes those that play only ranged classes don't realize how large that AoE is. I'll tell you what, though.... Next Garuda EX fight you do, request your tanks to bring either Garuda or Surprana to the ranged group. Test for youself how aggravating it can be if either isn't placed in just the right spot. Then ask why you're punished with a OHK when there's no where to run (except tornado).

Bad tank positioning doesn't effect ranged dps in that fight at all. Hence why it's safer to just bring ranged. Also less overall dps downtime between switching adds as melee generally have to wait for Garuda to WW before crossing tornados or wait for the off tank to grab the remaining sister. Granted the above is minor, charging to the other sister too soon could result in a WW death from Garuda, a chunk of health lost from tornados is the melee is slow, or just losing overall damage done to the sister while she slowly trots over to the off tank.

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Originally Posted by KraggyKor

This is simply a direct result of SE designing the battle mechanics in V2 as basically FPS 'twitch' mechanics where fight difficulty is largely determined by the scale and frequency of AoEs; V1 was nothing like as crass.

It's truly abysmal how many key fights make melee DPS a liability while ranged can often stand around uninterrupted or even if they have to move of course Archers/Bards can DPS on the run; fights like Titan HM illustrate this so well.

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This is funny cause a lot of the titan HM runs I've seen the bard dies first, usually before the heart. I run it as a bard now and can't figure out why other bards die in that fight at all. I first ran it as a monk and did perfectly fine.

I'm not sure why people stray away from melee. My static group that does coil and extremes, have 1 dragoon and 1 monk and we do it fine all the time. Also on PF on Leviathan, I don't really see this issue. Hopefully people realize melee is fine for bosses in this game.

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Originally Posted by Farah

This is funny cause a lot of the titan HM runs I've seen the bard dies first, usually before the heart. I run it as a bard now and can't figure out why other bards die in that fight at all. I first ran it as a monk and did perfectly fine.

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Meany people witch are playing as range class, dont have the skill and the training for dodging the aoe atacks !

As a Monk i have to dodge in every single fight aoes, different kinds shapes and etc... ! How often do you think range classes need to dodge aoes !

I will give you an example.

In the HM (hard mode) and in the new Light Tower dn, you have bosses where you need to dodge alot and the aoes are really fast, almsot every single party im in range dps and healers are deing because they cant dodge the aoes, because they are not used to such a fight!

As for Garuda Ex, i simply dont understand where is the problem of the people for not wanting a melle in the party.

I personaly dont have any problems to dodge the aoe atack, the only atacks im getting hit are the once you cant do a thing about them!

Then again 90% of failing the Garuda EX is thx to the either tanks or healers! But yeah blame the melle class !

inb4 LFM for Leviathan ((No Melee)).
But yea seriously, don't blame SE. Blame your servers community instead.

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Originally Posted by Swishytail

Those are indeed ignorant groups. I've been Monk since launch. I've downed T5, all 3 Extremes.

Guess who's been top damage on every single fight, lol. That's not bragging, honestly, I'm just
saying that Melee are far from worthless on any content in this game. Mechanic/Dodging wise,
yes, it's lopsided. I can't argue that. But anyone who dismisses melee like that need to broaden
their horizons. =/

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Honestly I don't think the majority think that melee are worthless. They do realize their capability, but have realized that there are far less chances of problems by bringing ranged instead.

Seeing some pugs, Ranged is the safest bet. I noticed some melee just simple dont move. If melee want to play, show them what you can do instead of telling mommy. We have 1-2 melee in all our parties. their burst damage is just too good to pass up. Drg/Monk on twin gets 2nd nerulink by 3rd conflag easy.

Play a different class if you don't like the territory that comes with being a melee. I know plenty of people who absolutely love monk and dragoon.