Light/full Party buff

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

why do people act as if current NM is going to be the only content and upcoming NMs going to be as easy as current NMs?

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/thread

/morechars

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Originally Posted by Frebaut

Why are you assuming their making the Dungeons to accommodate the buffs?

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I'm not. That was the argument that the other posters were making.

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Originally Posted by Frebaut

EDIT: The buff was to add incentive to party play, thats why the buff is so low at 4 and 8 man parties.

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I know why they added the party buffs. I'm just saying that from a design and gameplay perspective, it doesn't address any kind of problem, and it encourages poor behavior.

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Originally Posted by Aver

Noted and agreed, but at the same time, why remove it? Fix it.

As a person, I don't like having a feature added just to have it removed arbitrarily, be it for a game or console, software, hardware - the human mind just isn't wired to like that. So instead, one takes a system that seems a little rushed and easily exploitable and makes it worthwhile by adding two or three simple checks. Is the 4th/8th person in the same zone? Are they an acceptable level range with regards to the party? Are they DoW/DoM? If any of these are no, poof no buff. There, problem fixed.

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And if, somehow, party content requires a group to defend a crafter conducting repairs to an airship, should the party not get the bonus for having the requisite crafter with them?

I think the bonus is artificial and silly. I'm all for checks and balances on the application of the bonus, but would rather see it go away with the new combat system once party play actually means something other than massive leve-linking bonuses.

I'm not exactly sure how EXP/SP is distributed, but this is how I think it should work. There should be a range around a monster that you have to be in, in order to get EXP/SP. While in that range, your party members effect your EXP/SP per kill, and you effect theirs. Likewise, players have their own range from one to another. If you are in range to a player, you gain a small buff, scaling with the number of party members around you. That way people who AFK effect the EXP/SP of the party so that it can't be abused by those just wanting to get the buff. One person = No buff, Two people = 1.25%, Three = 2.75%, Four = 4.5% or something along those lines. Anything to actually promote players to play with eachother.

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Is there any particular reason why a 5% across the board boost somehow makes dungeon content balancing easier? No, there isn't. It's a 5% global boost. It's not specific to anything.

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hmmm I see your point now, yea I have no idea in this regard tbh.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

what is good gameplay? it's subjective.

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It's subjective yes, but that doesn't mean one can abandon all sense of logic in one's analysis of what it is to have good gameplay.

If someone honestly thinks that being rewarded for adding an AFK person to your party is an example of "good gameplay", then that person needs his head examined.

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Originally Posted by Mack

hmmm I see your point now, yea I have no idea in this regard tbh.

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

If someone honestly thinks that being rewarded for adding an AFK person to your party is an example of "good gameplay", then that person needs his head examined.

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So the mechanic can be exploited, oh noes!

Other than that you are whining about something that AFAIK, hasn't been proven to have any impact on whatever little content there is now.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Other than that you are whining about something that AFAIK, hasn't been proven to have any impact on whatever little content there is now.

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It's not whining, it's analysis. I've been careful to word my posts in a logically consistent and meaningful fashion, but it that still sounds like whining to you, then I don't know what to tell you.

Throughout the thread I have already shown it to have a detrimental impact on the area of player incentives. It is not good design to reward players for actions that would have otherwise be detrimental to themselves. Another example of this phenomenon occurring in-game would be getting benefit from failing your leves on purpose.

We know the point you're trying to make, but you're coming off as others have said. If you don't want to be perceived that way, try changing your attitude.

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Originally Posted by Asmeret

We know the point you're trying to make, but you're coming off as others have said. If you don't want to be perceived that way, try changing your attitude.

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I come off as whining and crying like a baby, in your opinion? Using proper grammar, sentence structure, and organized paragraphs is usually not a common tool of whiners. Addressing each counter-point with my own reasoning without resorting to name-calling is not a common tool of crybabies.

Care to find a particular quote of mine that embodies this bad attitude I seem to embrace?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I come off as whining and crying like a baby, in your opinion? Using proper grammar, sentence structure, and organized paragraphs is usually not a common tool of whiners. Addressing each counter-point with my own reasoning without resorting to name-calling is not a common tool of crybabies.

Care to find a particular quote of mine that embodies this bad attitude I seem to embrace?

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/10 Chars.

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Originally Posted by Asmeret

/10 Chars.

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That's your idea of a "bad attitude"?

lol

Well thought whining is still whining.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Well thought whining is still whining.

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OK dude, whatever you say.

I'm glad you think my arguments are "well thought-out", regardless.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

OK dude, whatever you say.

I'm glad you think my arguments are "well thought-out", regardless.

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As long as you admit you are whining.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

As long as you admit you are whining.

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Nope, you are equating any kind of negative criticism as "whining" and that is not a fair assessment.

Anyhow, the argument about the style of my presentation is irrelevant to the subject at hand. Both the OP and I have shown how there are flaws in the design of the light/full party buff system and that it could use some fixing. Compared to the other problems this game has, it really isn't that big a deal, but that does not negate the fact that the party buff is badly designed.

If anyone else has any points to make about how the party buff is actually an example of good design, then feel free to make them.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

If anyone else has any points to make about how the party buff is actually an example of good design, then feel free to make them.

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Whine whine whine.

You didn't show any real flaw. All you did is provide your very subjective view on it, ignoring the fact that we haven't got any new content since the party buff was introduced.

Until you have concrete flaw that it is hurting the game, you are whining. :)

Oh and AFKing doesn't count, nobody cares if people grind with an afker on autofollow, and the exploit can be reasonably fixed easily.

Please, QQ more.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Whine whine whine.

You didn't show any real flaw. All you did is provide your very subjective view on it, ignoring the fact that we haven't got any new content since the party buff was introduced.

Until you have concrete flaw that it is hurting the game, you are whining. :)

Oh and AFKing doesn't count, nobody cares if people grind with an afker on autofollow, and the exploit can be reasonably fixed easily.

Please, QQ more.

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While I don't agree with the way you say it, I do agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

You didn't show any real flaw. All you did is provide your very subjective view on it, ignoring the fact that we haven't got any new content since the party buff was introduced.

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So in your subjective opinion, getting rewarded with a 5% or 10% performance boost for adding useless players who do not contribute at all to battle is an example of good game design?

Please, tell me more.

Additionally, I have already gone over why any new content is irrelevant to the subject at hand.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

That's the point I'm trying to make.

If the dungeon content is too hard for just a 4-man party without the buff, why design it that way?

Design the dungeon content to be just right for a 4-man party without the buff from the start.

Is there any particular reason why a 5% across the board boost somehow makes dungeon content balancing easier? No, there isn't. It's a 5% global boost. It's not specific to anything.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

So in your subjective opinion, getting rewarded with a 5% or 10% performance boost for adding useless players who do not contribute at all to battle is an example of good game design?

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In my subjective opinion (and opinions always are) it's being exploited and needs to be fixed i.e. by making the bonus wear off after one minute unless at least 4 (or 8) players have performed an action.


And why design content around the buff? I guess to encourage party play, who cares? You are whining over a lolincrease of 5-10% acc, macc, hp and mp.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

In my subjective opinion (and opinions always are) it's being exploited and needs to be fixed i.e. by making the bonus wear off after one minute unless at least 4 (or 8) players have performed an action.

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So you agree that there is a problem here. Good. "Whining" would be unwarranted and misdirected complaining. Good to know that this criticism is neither unwarranted nor misdirected.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

And why design content around the buff? I guess to encourage party play, who cares? You are whining over a lolincrease of 5-10% acc, macc, hp and mp.

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If the object is to encourage party play, the devs can do that without also encouraging bad behavior.

A 10% boost to those stats is not minor. For a player with 160 accuracy and 2000 HP, a 10% boost is an additional 16 accuracy and 200 HP. That is like wearing an additional 4 Silver Rings and an additional set of Full Plate armor and Mythril Wristlets. That is the difference between killing Dodore quick enough for 2 additional respawns, and only killing Dodore fast enough for 1 respawn.

It is not a "lolincrease", and even if it were, that doesn't justify bad design.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

A 10% boost to those stats is not minor. For a player with 160 accuracy and 2000 HP, a 10% boost is an additional 16 accuracy and 200 HP. That is like wearing an additional 4 Silver Rings and an additional set of Full Plate armor and Mythril Wristlets. That is the difference between killing Dodore quick enough for 2 additional respawns, and only killing Dodore fast enough for 1 respawn.

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8 people party = hopefully challenging endgame NMs. And that's why your whining is out of place, we have still to experience the new content.

Keep QQing.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

None of the NM's now should be considered End Game.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

why do people act as if current NM is going to be the only content and upcoming NMs going to be as easy as current NMs?

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I suppose it was my fault when I made the thread. I never should have added the comment about NMs and im sorry, it wasnt what I was trying to get across.

I dont understand why they give a large boost in the buff from light to full party, thus rewarding you for filling out your party but dont have any restrictions on it, I think they need restrictions or change it so its just "party buff" and you get the full buff at 3 members. Its not gamebreaking, and not at top of changes I want but at the same time I thought it was odd they didnt have those at the start nor do I think it would be hard to change.

And to people saying its not a big boost I really dont understand. Theres no other buff or gear in the game that comes even close to 200 hp/mp and 10% accuracy, thats actually pretty significant. Like I said I was thinking more towards when things become difficult and if you have something available to you to give a higher chance at completing that nm at the end of a dungeon then why not? Its not like its hard to add a couple crafters in your ls to get that full party bonus.

Its something I can really see being abused if people are having any trouble.

I havn't done any light/heavy partying, however, I would say keep the buffs...they are eventually going to add harder NM's....of if they do away with buffs they should most likely balance everything out to coordinate with the amount of players in the light/heavy parties.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

8 people party = hopefully challenging endgame NMs.

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Which doesn't require the need for having a global party buff mechanic in place.

It's telling that you say "hopefully". You base your arguments on a hypothetical hope whereas I'm basing them on actual realities that we see now.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

You base your arguments on a hypothetical hope whereas I'm basing them on actual realities that we see now.

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I am basing my arguments on the announced future of the game. You are whining your QQs based on its current broken state, and everyone agrees it will die if not changed soon.