Is Rage of Halone Overpowered in GLA/PLD's Kit?

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Originally Posted by Leiron

I've no idea how you gained the idea that it is more TP pool efficient, but it isn't.
You will bottom out more quickly including Fracture in your rotation, than you would without it.

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TP pool efficient? Which means what?

Nothing.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

TP pool efficient? Which means what?

Nothing.

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That is a most wonderful comeback.
Resources are finite, and Tanks have no way of replenishing outside of using abilities that cost no TP or not attacking.
There are fights such as Titan that are very long and can strain the TP pool
For these fights they matter.

You can try and be dismissive all you want but resource is a cause of concern simply due to the nature in which resources work for tanks in this game.

No. Go away.

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Originally Posted by Araye

No. Go away.

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Okay... *sniffles*

*hits you with a Butcher block on the way out*

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Originally Posted by Leiron

That is a most wonderful comeback.
Resources are finite, and Tanks have no way of replenishing outside of using abilities that cost no TP or not attacking.
There are fights such as Titan that are very long and can strain the TP pool
For these fights they matter.

You can try and be dismissive all you want but resource is a cause of concern simply due to the nature in which resources work for tanks in this game.

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No, it is completely irrelevant. You don't stop auto attacking. You just said that. If the ability is more efficient, then it doesn't matter when your "TP pool" runs out. It is completely 100%, totally irrelevant. If the ability does more damage and is efficient, it will have build an insurmountable lead by the time you bottom out on TP. The "TP pool" means nothing. Period.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

HS>SS>BB>HS>SS>BB>HS>MAIM>STORM'S EDGE.

For the sake of keeping it short, BB just means the BB combo chain.

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Ah, it's shorthand for the whole chain. Got it, that makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

That is a most wonderful comeback.
Resources are finite, and Tanks have no way of replenishing outside of using abilities that cost no TP or not attacking.
There are fights such as Titan that are very long and can strain the TP pool
For these fights they matter.

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Which is what stopping to cast flash, or stoneskin, help alleviate.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

I think we are missing the OP's point. RoH is "overpowered" because of the complete package. It is the highest DPS combo for Paladins, best threat combo, and brings extra utility. It really isn't so much that it is overpowered, so much as it is the more simple design of the game in terms of rotations and ability usage.

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OMG thank you for actually understanding my point. Although I believe my thread got taken over by some people arguing about WAR vs PLD or something like that.

It's not that Rage of Halone is significantly overpowered or over budget, but that Butcher's Block is significantly underpowered/underbudget.

As the end of a 3 skill chain combo it has no real secondary effect other than the class mechanic (wrath) and the very minor potency increase (20 difference from Rage). If you look at pretty much any other job, their "end of combo" skills all have some significant bonus. (with the exception of maybe Full Thrust).

Honestly Butcher's Block should have some secondary effect.

As a side note, if Butcher's Block reduced STR by 10% and Rage of Halone did nothing, the 2 jobs would be much closer to being balanced in terms of durability.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

As a side note, if Butcher's Block reduced STR by 10% and Rage of Halone did nothing, the 2 jobs would be much closer to being balanced in terms of durability.

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It'd also be closer to what a final fantasy warrior is, rather than the current twilight vam- warrior.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

It's not that Rage of Halone is significantly overpowered or over budget, but that Butcher's Block is significantly underpowered/underbudget.

As the end of a 3 skill chain combo it has no real secondary effect other than the class mechanic (wrath) and the very minor potency increase (20 difference from Rage). If you look at pretty much any other job, their "end of combo" skills all have some significant bonus. (with the exception of maybe Full Thrust).

Honestly Butcher's Block should have some secondary effect.

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It's not that Butcher's Block is strange because it doesn't have a secondary benefit beyond marginally increased damage; it's that only PLD really has a "primary" combo where the t3 bonus for that attack is anything except for increased damage (though it should be mentioned that RoH actually gets both substantially increased damage as well as a secondary benefit). Snap Punch is just 180 compared to the 130-150 that you get out of the Opo-opo and Raptor form attacks. Greased Lightning isn't unique to it, so that benefit has more in common with Wrath generation than the secondary effect of RoH. Full Thrust for DRG is the same way: straight up big damage with no secondary benefit.

Really, there's much stronger evidence that Rage of Halone is the outlier, as opposed to Butcher's Block. Though it's important to keep in mind what I said at the start of the thread: in order to mix up the PLD rotation with an "inferior" enmity attack that applies a debuff, you've gotta buff RoH's damage by a *crapload* to preserve the enmity/damage balance (and doing so would actually push up PLD damage by ~31 potency per GCD).

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As a side note, if Butcher's Block reduced STR by 10% and Rage of Halone did nothing, the 2 jobs would be much closer to being balanced in terms of durability.

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The only durability balance that it would really address it accounting for the Shield v. No Shield discrepancy. 10% STR isn't *nearly* large enough to make up for the straight up inferiority of Wrath and the WAR CD suite so you'd still have a *long* way to go even if you did swap it around.

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Originally Posted by dark494

Which is what stopping to cast flash, or stoneskin, help alleviate.

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Warrior's do not get stoneskin, and their MP pool is extremely limited so you really cant cast Flash as often as a Paladin can.
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Some of the differences between tthe classes is odd.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Warrior's do not get stoneskin, and their MP pool is extremely limited so you really cant cast Flash as often as a Paladin can.
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Some of the differences between tthe classes is odd.

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They do get Inner Beast though. They also have more than enough MP to cast Flash during each downtime after a Berserk.

Aside from super 10+ minute long fights and AoE situations, Warriors shouldn't have any resource problems.

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

They do get Inner Beast though. They also have more than enough MP to cast Flash during each downtime after a Berserk.

Aside from super 10+ minute long fights and AoE situations, Warriors shouldn't have any resource problems.

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You've never played a Warrior have you?

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Originally Posted by Paikis

You've never played a Warrior have you?

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The fact that you have to ask that tells me you haven't.

RoH is a bit OP.

To compensate, Butcher's Block should get a 40 Potency DOT that recovers 100% of damage dealt for 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

RoH is a bit OP.

To compensate, Butcher's Block should get a 40 Potency DOT that recovers 100% of damage dealt for 10 seconds.

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Be that as it may, the thread was intended to discuss the power of RoH within the confines of the PAL's kit..not a PAL vs WAR haha

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Warrior's do not get stoneskin, and their MP pool is extremely limited so you really cant cast Flash as often as a Paladin can.
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Some of the differences between tthe classes is odd.

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Oh I'm sorry, did I misread the thread title? I thought we were talking about gld/pld kits.

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Originally Posted by dark494

Oh I'm sorry, did I misread the thread title? I thought we were talking about gld/pld kits.

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You didn't misread. Many just insist on distorting the OP's very valid point by brining in irrelevant things.

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Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn

When it's worth it to use RoH without the combo bonus?

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Before the last update i found it very useful to use it twice on big mobs before going into my combo because of how slow and weak the first hit of the combo is. Most dps will go all out the moment shield lob touches a mob, so it does have some non-combo use.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

You didn't misread. Many just insist on distorting the OP's very valid point by brining in irrelevant things.

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</sarcasm>

Add enmity increase in all PLD abilities! That alone would fix our boring combo rotation. If I try to cast shield swipe during trash pulls I run the risk of dropping agro to dps. I don't understand why they made it so difficult to maintain agro. I would love a little more freedom/breathing room to cast other abilities on trash pulls. Boss fights are usually not as bad because dps has to focus elsewhere while I keep agro on the boss. I am sure it will change when I hit 50 and gear up, but I still freak out when the BM bursts the target and I constantly play agro meter game with them.

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Originally Posted by KittenJitsu

Add enmity increase in all PLD abilities! That alone would fix our boring combo rotation. If I try to cast shield swipe during trash pulls I run the risk of dropping agro to dps. I don't understand why they made it so difficult to maintain agro. I would love a little more freedom/breathing room to cast other abilities on trash pulls. Boss fights are usually not as bad because dps has to focus elsewhere while I keep agro on the boss. I am sure it will change when I hit 50 and gear up, but I still freak out when the BM bursts the target and I constantly play agro meter game with them.

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Shield swipe isn't a problem though. It does lots of damage, pacifies, and doesn't interrupt the combo rotation ( fast blade > savage blade > shield swipe > RoH is valid ).

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Originally Posted by dark494

Shield swipe isn't a problem though. It does lots of damage, pacifies, and doesn't interrupt the combo rotation ( fast blade > savage blade > shield swipe > RoH is valid ).

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Sorry you misunderstand me. I wasn't trying to discredit our main combo. I simply want more options to hold threat than our one combo FB > SB > RoH. Yes shield swipe could be used before RoH but I risk losing agro in trash pulls or initial boss pulls. Rather than telling my dps to hold out 5 seconds, I would like to mindless zerg trash pulls and smash face with my shield and still maintain agro.

All I ask is add a little bit more enmity boost to our core class abilities. Maybe not as strong as SB or RoH, but a little more so I can start off with a SW or Shield Bash. It would help tremendously with adds when I can't cast my combo fast enough.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

RoH itself is "mostly" fine, though I would like to redistribute some of the hate from RoH if possible.
Right now, our hate combo is 150 for Fast Blade, 600 for Savage Blade, and 1300 for RoH, for a total of 2050. Of that, Fast Blade is ~7%, Savage Blade is ~ 29%, and RoH is ~63%.
This is very back loaded, and makes aggro very spiky at the start of a fight.
I have detailed this in another post, but basically I would like to give Fast Blade a 3x threat mod, and lower RoH's threat mod to 4, down from 5.
This would make the combo: 150*3 + 200*3 + 260*4 = 2090, but now it is 22% - 29% - 49%, making it less spiky, yet still demands the use of RoH in a combo for maximum hate generation.

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I like this suggestion. Allows us to use other abilities since we MUST complete the combo to obtain most hate generation. A little ridiculous imo

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Originally Posted by dark494

Shield swipe isn't a problem though. It does lots of damage, pacifies, and doesn't interrupt the combo rotation ( fast blade > savage blade > shield swipe > RoH is valid ).

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Is it? I've been using it and I find it VERY useful. The pacification is not to be underlooked IMO. However, if you look at the "Paladin Tanking Compendium" thread or whatever..the author pretty much discredits any weapon skill that doesn't RoH combo (besides the opening shield lob).

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Originally Posted by Jubez187

Is it? I've been using it and I find it VERY useful. The pacification is not to be underlooked IMO. However, if you look at the "Paladin Tanking Compendium" thread or whatever..the author pretty much discredits any weapon skill that doesn't RoH combo (besides the opening shield lob).

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I've stopped using Shield Swipe mainly because it's not an effective enmity generator (not high enmity modifier) and, because it's proc based, you can't reliably use it to throw Pacification on a target when it would be most useful. Its got great damage for its cost (it provides 6.67 more potency per GCD than the Halone combo so it's not a massive increase in DPS), but it's a little too limited in its actual usefulness. I've contemplated putting it back on my bar to start tossing it in when I've gotten the infinite threat cushion of infinity 2-3 minutes into the fight, but, honestly, I don't really see much of point, especially since most bosses are outright immune to it (and all it stops are the physical special attacks, which are nowhere *near* the same proportion of incoming damage that they are for players).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I've stopped using Shield Swipe mainly because it's not an effective enmity generator (not high enmity modifier)

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I wish they had Shield Oath give Shield Bash/Swipe/Toss all a enmity modifier/more of a enmity modifier. The 2 stances are pretty boring IMO.

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Originally Posted by Jubez187

I wish they had Shield Oath give Shield Bash/Swipe/Toss all a enmity modifier/more of a enmity modifier. The 2 stances are pretty boring IMO.

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I think it would be interesting if they had Shield and Sword Oath change the secondary effects of given abilities, with Sword Oath getting offensive/OT benefits and Shield Oath giving defensive/MT benefits. Examples would include having Sword Oath cause Flash to deal damage (with no bonus enmity) and Shield Oath increasing the static enmity further, Halone getting a DoT with Sword Oath and the 10% STR debuff in Shield Oath, and Circle of Scorn getting the DoT while in Sword Oath but instead providing a retributive damage buff to the tank while in Shield Oath (20 potency per attack for 10 seconds, which, if you were actually being attacked, would provide slightly more damage, assuming you actually maintain threat the entire time).

Of course, I get the feeling that the simplicity of the one-of-multiple stances is intentional. The various Fist abilities that PGL/MNK gets and the PLD Oaths are all simple passive benefits. The only really "complicated" stance is Defiance, and that's only because it defines the entire playstyle of WAR: the stance itself is simple (increase hp, reduce damage, and generate Wrath stacks with attacks); it's the interaction with the other WAR abilities that makes it complicated. On top of that, the only "stance dancing" that ever really goes on is healers dancing in and out of Cleric Stance for short periods (I tend to drop into Cleric Stance just long enough to apply and reapply DoTs if I have to heal regularly or spend most of my time in Cleric Stance to DPS and just drop out just long enough to refresh HoTs/shields or throw out an AoE heal) and I'm still not really sure whether *that* is intentional: Cleric Stance was obviously intended to be a "soloing" stance (completely gib heals to give you straight up DPS capability) so I'd have to wonder if they figured that players would use it to boost damage during a couple open GCDs before turning it back off (mostly because it's a free stance that's off-GCD, unlike the PLD stances and Defiance).

I like your changes to Sword and Shield Oath Kitru. It would allow us to solo better and tank safely when right now we fight tooth and nail with dps to hold agro.

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Originally Posted by dark494

Oh I'm sorry, did I misread the thread title? I thought we were talking about gld/pld kits.

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The discussion at with Cromac was in regards to a different discussion which was about Warriors.
So you didn't misread the title, but you certainly will be sticking your foot in your mouth for making comments while ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

The discussion at with Cromac was in regards to a different discussion which was about Warriors.

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Again, sarcasm, learn to read it. Also, that's what we call derailing a thread off-topic, but thanks for demonstrating what sticking your foot in your mouth actually looks like.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

The discussion at with Cromac was in regards to a different discussion which was about Warriors.
So you didn't misread the title, but you certainly will be sticking your foot in your mouth for making comments while ignorant.

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Originally Posted by dark494

Again, sarcasm, learn to read it. Also, that's what we call derailing a thread off-topic, but thanks for demonstrating what sticking your foot in your mouth actually looks like.

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You both look like idiots.

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Originally Posted by KittenJitsu

You both look like idiots.

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There is irony.

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Originally Posted by dark494

Again, sarcasm, learn to read it.

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Do you even know what sarcasm is?

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Originally Posted by dark494

Also, that's what we call derailing a thread off-topic, but thanks for demonstrating what sticking your foot in your mouth actually looks like.

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That has to be the worst attempt at back pedaling I have read to date.
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

I do not believe you're considering how effective Sword Oath's effect is.

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Sword Oath only effects PLD auto attack. If it boosted Abilities power too it would be overpowered. I have both WAR and PLD, and I've done some testing with PLD Sword Oath vs Shield. PLD in Sword Oath barely beats My WAR in Defiance. War still out DPS PLD Sword Oath due too the several mechanics stacked against PLD. 1. WAR has higher potency attacks. 2. Maim & Storm Eye which have no cool down. 3. Berserk 4. Internal Release 5. Vengeance. 6. Longer DoT. 7. Higher Weapon Auto Attack Damage ( WAR 51.52, PLD 35.57 with Relic)

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Sword Oath only effects PLD auto attack. If it boosted Abilities power too it would be overpowered. I have both WAR and PLD, and I've done some testing with PLD Sword Oath vs Shield. PLD in Sword Oath barely beats My WAR in Defiance. War still out DPS PLD Sword Oath due too the several mechanics stacked against PLD. 1. WAR has higher potency attacks. 2. Maim & Storm Eye which have no cool down. 3. Berserk 4. Internal Release 5. Vengeance. 6. Longer DoT. 7. Higher Weapon Auto Attack Damage ( WAR 51.52, PLD 35.57 with Relic)

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If you're running off a parser, you should note that xiv app doesn't pick up Sword Oath damage.

You do realize you are suggesting that a Warrior with a 25% damage debuff is outperforming a Paladin in sword oath yes?
Just...wow...
Seriously...just...wow.
You have to be doing something REALLY wrong, to be outperforming PLD in sword oath while you have defiance up.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

You do realize you are suggesting that a Warrior with a 25% damage debuff is outperforming a Paladin in sword oath yes?
Just...wow...
Seriously...just...wow.
You have to be doing something REALLY wrong, to be outperforming PLD in sword oath while you have defiance up.

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1. Don't believe, go test it yourself.
2. You do realize Maim+Storm Eye Negates The -25% Damage right ? Also These impact all attacks and not just auto-attack. Not to mention War's can use unchained pushing DPS even more.

3. You forget Defiance Boostes Crits. Now add Internal Release to that and you have +30% Crits while its up.

and Lastly to Respond to your quote

How hard is it to Mess up PLDs 123 Combo?....please. If you havent played WAR please dont speak on topics you know nothing about. I've hit over 700 crits with my war(WARs crit more often btw). I have yet to see a Crit that hits harder than 600 with my PLD. I hit 500+ crits in defiance on the regular with WAR, when I see those kind of numbers on my PLD its a surprise because Spirit Within is my best move and a good crit with that is severly impacted by timing and luck when tanking. Below is a video of WAR's DPS Potential


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxMxLb3qki0

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

1. Don't believe, go test it yourself.

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With what, the parser that doesn't register sword oath?

10 character

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

1. Don't believe, go test it yourself.

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I did, you're wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

2. You do realize Maim+Storm Eye Negates The -25% Damage right ? Also These impact all attacks and not just auto-attack. Not to mention War's can use unchained pushing DPS even more.

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Not it doesn't.

100 damage reduced by 25%.
You deal 75.
Maim increases damage by 20%.
You now deal 89.
Factor in Storm's Eye which is 11% for Slashing damage, assuming that the resistance is a flat 11% and that it is multiplicative.
You're dealing 98, and in reality, the slash resistance accounts to more of a 5%, but we'll assume 11% damage increase (which it isn't)
It is not nullified.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

3. You forget Defiance Boostes Crits. Now add Internal Release to that and you have +30% Crits while its up.

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The 10% increase crit rate is what nullifies it, not Maim/Storm's eye.
Even then, you're talking 10% increase where as a Paladin crits 10% less.
All the while, they have sword oath/fracture/spirits within/Circle of Scorn.
Furthermore, they also have Flight or Flight which is a 30% damage increase which is better than Berserk as there is no down time or penalty.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

How hard is it to Mess up PLDs 123 Combo?....please. If you havent played WAR please

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My Warrior is currently in t4. No luck with drops.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

dont speak on topics you know nothing about. I've hit over 700 crits with my war(WARs crit more often btw).

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My most recent crit with Rage of Halone is around 658.
GG
Furthermore, I have math on my side.
You have anecdotal evidence.

Even without Sword Oath, a Paladin will out DPS a Warrior in Defiance, to even suggest otherwise is being horribly ignorant.