The current battle system mainly calculate everything from Your Rank vs Mob Rank

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Actually no. I tanked Uraeus at Lv48 and Lv50 with the exact same gear. The difference was night and day. A much bigger difference than it should be. Also when I was fighting it at 48 we did another attempt with bronze gear... Same exact damage.

Edit: Is that the same Apple Pie from Beta on Wutai? I played Sagara Sousuke. lol

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Oh that is actually what i am trying to say, stat might not be broken, it just unbalance DLv formula.

Oh yeah. Thats my entire point. Nevermind. lol

The formula itself is not broken. 1 factor just seems to have a high enough coefficient or multiplier to make everything else minute thereby skewering your results.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

^ mouthbreathing.

And thats why you use the Lv1 critters as the control because if it works one way the opposite is most likely the case.

You have yet to disprove anything using proof yet you keep asking for proof.

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testing what a hyperbolic equation does at the ends of its variation is basically useless data, and tells you little to nothing about what it looks like in the middle.

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Originally Posted by Physic

testing what a hyperbolic equation does at the ends of its variation is basically useless data, and tells you little to nothing about what it looks like in the middle.

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Sorry buddy, no one cares what its like in the middle. End-game results is the only thing that matter when theorycrafting on these calculations.

But those results can be eyeballed just as easy.

Also another test with "Shadowsear" because shadowsear completely ignores Dlv and magic defense, so it is very easy to test, try it with basic INT and with 80-90 INT, it is a very clear increase from 400normal-500crit to 600normal-800crit to NMs.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Also another test with "Shadowsear" because shadowsear completely ignores Dlv and magic defense, so it is very easy to test, try it with basic INT and with 80-90 INT, it is a very clear increase from 400normal-500crit to 600normal-800crit to NMs.

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BAM. Tested and proven. Good game bro.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

It's on everyone's part, but when someone slams a document down on your desk and says "THIS DOESN'T WORK!" don't you think normally, to support their assessment, you're given proof as to why it doesn't? And what's wrong with it? Then told to correct it? Even yoshida says the complex calculations for these spells need adjusting, but it wasn't broken or a bug, which was in one of the few premiere site Q&As sometime in feb or march.

You can eyeball that there's a small benefit to using protect and shell vs not using them (theres no way you can take more damage using -dt than not, I know I don't and I'm currently leveling conjurer on a new character), whereas you need parse data (more accurate assessment) to really see if it does what it should. It was overpowered prior to the novemeber adjustment, now it's just not as effective as it should be.

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In an argument, both sides have to prove their point. Neither side can say "I know it is true because I say so." So until you give me a burden of proof that there is a small benefit from shell, I shan't believe it works.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

BAM. Tested and proven. Good game bro.

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You see a lot of that on the forums. People cast shell, take 50 less damage on ONE attack and go "it works" instead of figuring that it is just coincidence. It is "luck" when you take 50 less damage without shell. I'm tired of rank 20-40s telling me it reduces 2938093820938023 damage; when in fact, it doesn't reduce damage.

Someone even told me it reduces 10% of damage... I'll bring that quote if someone
doesn't believe people think this about shell/protect. Only thing that works to reduce magical damage is Emulate :/ It reduced damage from a goblin bomb (rank 79) from 2.5k to 1.4k on me. Cast shell... nothing reduced... Cast shell several times on several different rank 70+ monsters, nothing happens.

I don't know if you believe shell/protect works/doesn't work, but I'm tired of people saying "I have proof because I can type a wall of text on how I feel it works."

And before you say, "Where is your parse!?": I'll show you parse when I am allowed to use third-party tools in FFXIV. Otherwise, I'm not risking my account to show you something I already know to be true. Hit rank 50, use shell/protect and then tell me it works to reduce more than your mystical "10%".

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

BAM. Tested and proven. Good game bro.

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notice that ignores MDEF this is the equivalent of spirits within.

here is the obvious factor, what level are these NMs, do you really think they are drastically higher level than you guys at 50? what are you basing that on? because your damage sucks?
Going by the rules of other NMs in this game, and in FFXI nms are generally not that much more high level than you, they generally have way better stats.

Your entire theory is based on the premise that endgame things are higher level, and dlevel is ruining your stats, when in actuality it is probably the opposite. Dlevel is probably a very small factor in this equation. becuase to be perfectly honest, the things that reduce my damage to the damage you guys get on these NMs do so much damage to me in one hit (DUE TO DLEVEL) that its impossible to survive.

think about it, how high a level vulture do you have to attack for your damage to be that low? how hard does it hit you.

All magic does that...aero on brags does teh same thing. At basic INT and PIE, you get big resists and hit for 80. At 90 INT and PIE you start hitting for 200-300. At 174 INT and PIE...well it's pointless. You hit a wall at about 120 at most and the only way to get better, past half-assing your job because doing more than half-assing it is pointless...is to level up. Then holy crap suddenly your nukes hit for 600 instead of 200.

I dare any R50 conjurer to NOT spirit dart Uraeus for 33-35 damage. Dare you. Can you even do it? I know you can't do better, but can you do WORSE? I don't even know.

How MUCH can I strip and still do that? Well I can strip to a NQ jade crook. I can stop eating food. I can despec 50 INT and PIE points.
I can accidentally wear my crafting gear. Kid you not.

What do I have to do as a R50 conjurer to not hit Uraeus for 33-35 damage? Seriously. Guess what my criticals do to it. Holy crap 33-35 damage. Amazing. It's like NOTHING EVEN MATTERS BUT LEVEL

was just proving that stats arent broken and 'probably' are working as intended.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Also another test with "Shadowsear" because shadowsear completely ignores Dlv and magic defense, so it is very easy to test, try it with basic INT and with 80-90 INT, it is a very clear increase from 400normal-500crit to 600normal-800crit to NMs.

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once again, ignoring mdef is probably the biggest factor in that equation, in fact test ints effect with monsters that are the same level. (this takes dlevel completely out of the equation), then using that data you can start to get an idea what effect your mdef vs mattack has. on your damage

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Originally Posted by Physic

notice that ignores MDEF this is the equivalent of spirits within.

here is the obvious factor, what level are these NMs, do you really think they are drastically higher level than you guys at 50? what are you basing that on? because your damage sucks?
Going by the rules of other NMs in this game, and in FFXI nms are generally not that much more high level than you, they generally have way better stats.

Your entire theory is based on the premise that endgame things are higher level, and dlevel is ruining your stats, when in actuality it is probably the opposite. Dlevel is probably a very small factor in this equation. becuase to be perfectly honest, the things that reduce my damage to the damage you guys get on these NMs do so much damage to me in one hit (DUE TO DLEVEL) that its impossible to survive.

think about it, how high a level vulture do you have to attack for your damage to be that low? how hard does it hit you.

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This is like talking to a wall.

Get to 50 and figure it out. You keep asking for proof but dont provide any proof to disprove what many of us here are telling you FROM ACTUAL TESTS.

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Originally Posted by Physic

once again, ignoring mdef is probably the biggest factor in that equation, in fact test ints effect with monsters that are the same level. (this takes dlevel completely out of the equation), then using that data you can start to get an idea what effect your mdef vs mattack has. on your damage

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

was just proving that stats arent broken and 'probably' are working as intended.

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>_>
also, nobody is going to test those dlvl really. It is very easy to spot on NMs, bring 5 ppl that range varies between r45-50 and takes damage from one of the NM, you have your test that dlvl equations are just that imbalance.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

All magic does that...aero on brags does teh same thing. At basic INT and PIE, you get big resists and hit for 80. At 90 INT and PIE you start hitting for 200-300. At 174 INT and PIE...well it's pointless. You hit a wall at about 120 at most and the only way to get better, past half-assing your job because doing more than half-assing it is pointless...is to level up. Then holy crap suddenly your nukes hit for 600 instead of 200.

I dare any R50 conjurer to NOT spirit dart Uraeus for 33-35 damage. Dare you. Can you even do it? I know you can't do better, but can you do WORSE? I don't even know.

How MUCH can I strip and still do that? Well I can strip to a NQ jade crook. I can stop eating food. I can despec 50 INT and PIE points.
I can accidentally wear my crafting gear. Kid you not.

What do I have to do as a R50 conjurer to not hit Uraeus for 33-35 damage? Seriously. Guess what my criticals do to it. Holy crap 33-35 damage. Amazing. It's like NOTHING EVEN MATTERS BUT LEVEL

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Once again taking out dlevel would probably just leave you stuck at 33 damage forever, its most likely its not the dlevel effecting your lack of anything mattering, but rather the base defenses of the mob you are dealing with.

Since your stats arent breaking through his, your dlevel is the only factor. Im used to this, this is what it was like trying to do damage to tiamat on monk. nothing had any effect, except chi blast, and they reduced thats effectiveness by like 1/2 so people couldnt just use skills that ignore defense.
eating meat, adding attack, unless i boosted like 5+ times i would barely see an effect. Of course when i boosted like 12 times, wow its like a slightly strong normal monster. too bad 12 boosts meant i had 999 attack and there was no way to get that normally.

The NMs are not a test of dlevel, because NMs always have ridiculous stats. to test dlevel effects test your damage versus mobs of the same name, but different levels with the same equipment, i have so i know dlevel doesnt explain the phenomena you are talking about

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

>_>
also, nobody is going to test those dlvl really. It is very easy to spot on NMs, bring 5 ppl that range varies between r45-50 and takes damage from one of the NM, you have your test that dlvl equations are just that imbalance.

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once again, testing on NMs is a bad bet. they have altered stats, and i know its not about dlevel, because i can look at the exp gained, and the mob type and tell that its not even a high level monster.

You say that NMs aren't a test of DLVL but you use Tiamat as an example when you yourself believe that NMs are not that much higher than you.

You're clearly not aware that Tiamat is Lv95 and was relevant when the cap was 75. Thats a 20 level difference just in case your math is as bad as your logic.

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Originally Posted by Physic

once again, testing on NMs is a bad bet. they have altered stats, and i know its not about dlevel, because i can look at the exp gained, and the mob type and tell that its not even a high level monster.

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fine bring r15-r20 glad to a crab at cassipeia hollow.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

fine bring r15-r20 glad to a crab at cassipeia hollow.

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Dude I like how its the guy that isn't 50, not providing proof or testing his own hypothesis trying to sell US on his theory.

As I said before;

Theorycrafting damage formulas are done specifically for the purpose of performing well in End-Game. Testing on NMs and mobs that are at the floor are the most important monsters that can be tested on. No one cares about your damage at any other level but the cap.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Dude I like how its the guy that isn't 50, not providing proof or testing his own hypothesis trying to sell US on his theory.

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sounds normal, that is how this forum runs isnt it?

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

And thats why you use the Lv1 critters as the control because if it works one way the opposite is most likely the case.
You have yet to disprove anything using proof yet you keep asking for proof.

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Don't use Level 1 critters as a control.

If the variable you are testing is the difference in rank, then the control group MUST be the same rank as your character. Then you need to test creatures of the same type at different ranks, keeping everything else the same.


Also, burden of proof is on the person making the initial claim.

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Originally Posted by Lerris

Don't use Level 1 critters as a control.

If the variable you are testing is the difference in rank, then the control group MUST be the same rank as your character. Then you need to test creatures of the same type at different ranks, keeping everything else the same.


Also, burden of proof is on the person making the initial claim.

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Tell that to the same people that gave you your damage formulas and weapon skill modifiers in FFXI. Dozens of man hours were spent on those bunnies in Ronfaure.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

You say that NMs aren't a test of DLVL but you use Tiamat as an example when you yourself believe that NMs are not that much higher than you.

You're clearly not aware that Tiamat is Lv95 and was relevant when the cap was 75. Thats a 20 level difference just in case your math is as bad as your logic.

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and like everyone has said, in ffxi dlevel wasnt as large a factor, thats why i said at 999 attack he was like a strong regular monster.

My logic is perfectly viable, getting to 50 is irrelevant, unless you think the equations change at 50. If you are talking about the specific case of NMs then that probably indicates NMs are a specific case. I have fought things way over my level, i solo things 10 levels higher than me. I have fought leve quests with things 15 levels higher than me. i see the effect of level, and it does not account for doing the type of damage reduction you guys are talking about, because if it was a dlevel issue you would be getting hit for 2k when you are doing 20 damage a hit. i know this from actually fighting mobs that high.

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My logic is perfectly viable, getting to 50 is irrelevant, unless you think the equations change at 50.

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Cause you know... Games don't change the calculations at the cap. Thats totally not possible.

Sigh....

"People that think it is broken - Where is your proof/math?"
"People that think it works - Where is your proof/math?"

I haven't seen anyone post anything that provides proof. Cant really go asking for proof if you wont provide proof of otherwise.
The word of mouth from people that did it is enough proof. R1 weapon and R50 weapon vs NM = Same damage.

Me, I can vouch that it is broken, because I went and did it.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Me, I can vouch that it is broken, because I went and did it.

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BUT WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?! THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING!

Even Yoshida thinks the stats need readjusting and Matsui wants to redo things from the base level, so it's all going to change regardless.

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On the topic of monster attribute changes and possibly player attribute changes, can you go more into detail on this? A lot of players feel everything is still a bit out of whack when it comes to the current attributes like dex barely affecting Accuracy or Shell barely reducing an Imps Blizzard damage.

Our Lead Battle Director, Matsui-san, is currently undergoing--they're basically going to change the equations for how stuff is calculated, all of these attributes. As they balance each of the classes with the new balance system, they're going to go through and check each action. And then see how that needs to be adjusted, and reassign each attribute as they go along.

Since it's going to be such a huge undertaking, it's going to happen in steps--it's not all going to change in the next patch, but over the next few patches we hope to change it. But we want to reassess everything, so it's not like we're going to be looking at one broken thing, we're going to be changing pretty much everything.

One of the reasons that you have some of the things not affecting something at all--like Shell not working on a lot of spells--is because right now a lot of the calculations for that stuff is too complex. Because it's so complex, it's difficult to balance. They want to make it simpler, not just so the players know what's going on--having to have some super program going on in the background to understand the calculations--but also so when the devs do balancing, it's easier for them to balance.

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The fact shell went from 50% cut to showing minimal return is because of this reason, formulas are too complex for its good that you literally need parsers to find out what's going on.

Take the bug report about nether newt not having a proper description for example.

Is it something you must answer with "WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?! YOUTUBE VIDEO?! DATA PARSING?! 500 PAGE SPREADSHEET!?"
Or is it something you can go look at and say "Hey, this is really all ##########################'s. they better get that fixed!"

Better to go find out for yourself whether it is broken or not.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Even Yoshida thinks the stats need readjusting and Matsui wants to redo things from the base level, so it's all going to change regardless.



The fact shell went from 50% cut to showing minimal return is because of this reason, formulas are too complex for its good that you literally need parsers to find out what's going on.

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This

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Originally Posted by Reika

Take the bug report about nether newt not having a proper description for example.

Is it something you must answer with "WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?! YOUTUBE VIDEO?! DATA PARSING?! 500 PAGE SPREADSHEET!?"
Or is it something you can go look at and say "Hey, this is really all ##########################'s. they better get that fixed!"

Better to go find out for yourself whether it is broken or not.

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That's an obvious error, in terms of number crunching parsers are generally more accurate than eyeballing since a lot of times you're not always watching your numbers closely compared to watching the actual battle. Like you can't eyeball accuracy percentages.

Throw in the latency issues of the serverside UI and you definitely won't get accurate readings since logs miss data at times.

ok heres really numbers

surf eft level 42 pug level 58 eft
dlevel 16

damage with weathered hora heavy strike 18-20
damage with level 39 boarskin cesti hevey strike 50-54

level 42 pug, level 61 biast
damage with weathered hora heavy strike 14-16
damage with boarskin cesti 25-26

so yeah attack does matter, but it had no effect when you fought the nm..... hmmm COULD IT BE THE NM AND NOT THE DLEVEL OHHHH SNAP THATS CRAZY TALK

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Originally Posted by Elexia

That's an obvious error, in terms of number crunching parsers are generally more accurate than eyeballing since a lot of times you're not always watching your numbers closely compared to watching the actual battle. Like you can't eyeball accuracy percentages.

Throw in the latency issues of the serverside UI and you definitely won't get accurate readings since logs miss data at times.

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It is obvious. The issue with Rank vs Rank determining everything becomes obvious as well once you actually go observe it for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Cause you know... Games don't change the calculations at the cap. Thats totally not possible.

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lol if this is your premise, you problem with the equations have nothing to do with dlevel, and have something to do with this change at cap.

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Originally Posted by Physic

ok heres really numbers

surf eft level 42 pug level 58 eft
dlevel 16

damage with weathered hora heavy strike 18-20
damage with level 39 boarskin cesti hevey strike 50-54

level 42 pug, level 61 biast
damage with weathered hora heavy strike 14-16
damage with boarskin cesti 25-26

so yeah attack does matter, but it had no effect when you fought the nm..... hmmm COULD IT BE THE NM AND NOT THE DLEVEL OHHHH SNAP THATS CRAZY TALK

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Then there was the lancer in my party with the wethered spear. I was upset that she was doing close to equal damage as me >.> apparently that person was also testing it out too.
And I believe it is the closer you get to the targets rank, the less your weapon matters. which goes back to Rank vs Rank having too much of a role in the end judgment.

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Originally Posted by Physic

ok heres really numbers

surf eft level 42 pug level 58 eft
dlevel 16

damage with weathered hora heavy strike 18-20
damage with level 39 boarskin cesti hevey strike 50-54

level 42 pug, level 61 biast
damage with weathered hora heavy strike 14-16
damage with boarskin cesti 25-26

so yeah attack does matter, but it had no effect when you fought the nm..... hmmm COULD IT BE THE NM AND NOT THE DLEVEL OHHHH SNAP THATS CRAZY TALK

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Wow... you have got to be trolling. LOL if you posted this on BG you would be banned immediately.

That sad part is that you probably won't understand why this test itself is flawed.

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Originally Posted by Reika

It is obvious. The issue with Rank vs Rank determining everything becomes obvious as well once you actually go observe it for yourself.

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so how do you explain my numbers on mobs well over 10 levels higher than me, and my attack having a noticeable effect, to the tune of 50% and 35% more effective for using high level weapons versus not.

Once again the point is the NM has different stats, it is likely that its mdef and def is off the wall. or it has a straight damage reduction.
Attack is most noticeable when you are making a dent, not when you are far above, or far below. dlevel lowers your damage for high level mobs, no one has shown anything proving that these NMs are more high level than crap in the field. In fact, the fact that they do not do MORE Damage to you implies they are not extemely high level.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Wow... you have got to be trolling. LOL if you posted this on BG you would be banned immediately.

That sad part is that you probably won't understand why this test itself is flawed.

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I am not on BG, why is the test flawed, cause this isnt BG

Omfg this is too funny. You really don't have a clue do you? lol

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Originally Posted by Reika

Then there was the lancer in my party with the wethered spear. I was upset that she was doing close to equal damage as me >.> apparently that person was also testing it out too.
And I believe it is the closer you get to the targets rank, the less your weapon matters. which goes back to Rank vs Rank having too much of a role in the end judgment.

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so what your are saying is that dlevel actually makes you less effective for fighting things close to your level? and the reason people are mad is because when they are the same level as uraeus, their weapons wont matter?
actually reika, before i even test this, it probably comes down to weapons only giving attack, and attack most likely functions versus defense, so once your attack is high enough you wont see much difference because you are both overcoming their defense.
as far as i know weapons give no base damage increases like in FF

Well i can perform some tests on this is as well

edit: ok i performed some tests, and i get way more damage on boarskin even on monster that is level 38. something like 50% 110-120 versus 50s

to kuro, ok ill just ignore you now, because you aint saying anything of value.

People are just trolling now. If you can't blatantly see that dlvl dominates every stat in the game, you have no hope in any job requiring observation.

If you all have forgotten how ridiculously powerful levelling up made you during the grind, while your other stats and the mobs' stats remained the same, well...pay attention next time you level up.

One level is a bigger performance boost than respeccing your dex and str from 15 each to 80 each. Fact.

Watch. When the level cap is raised, level 55 players will kick the **** out of the R65 great buffalo, with the same gear. Fact. Why? Because they'll be hitting for 90 on that spirit dart, not 24.

Dlvl dominates every jobs' performance. Fact.

dlvel at the extremes will dominate perfomance, this is obvious. Some one 5 levels higher than you is going to be stronger than you, just from being 5 levels higher than you, we know this. But to say that your stats have no effect and are useless is incorrect. Also keep in mind things in this game are adjusted with dlevel so that the stats arent required to get insanely high. You arent going to change the fact that at 50 they designed whatever NMs so that your damage sucks. it has nothing to do with the dlevel. you damage sucks because they designed the NM so that you would need drastic reductions in its defenses to notice a damage increase. and skills that ignore defense are of course hax. much like chi blast and spirits within, this is nothing new. So basically get mad at the NM design that makes your stats seem useless, because what you are talking about is an NM issue, not a dlevel issue.

i cant speak on the effect of respecing strength, but i can tell you i can double my damage on monster 16 levels higher than me by increasing my attack.

The point really comes down to this, you need the equation, what matters is not how badly i can kick something 50 levels lower than mes ass. Until yall have an equation, you really dont know what it all means, or what is effecting what.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Tell that to the same people that gave you your damage formulas and weapon skill modifiers in FFXI. Dozens of man hours were spent on those bunnies in Ronfaure.

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But to test which variables? I'm not saying data from level 1 mobs isn't valuable or necessary, I'm saying they're a poor control group for testing the variable in question. A handful of fights doesn't give you a statistically significant dataset for level 1 mobs. Dozens of man-hours does. That's a datapoint, not a control group for dLevel. Testing against the rabbits makes sense when you're isolating your maximum damage output, but not for finding dLevel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Theorycrafting damage formulas are done specifically for the purpose of performing well in End-Game. Testing on NMs and mobs that are at the floor are the most important monsters that can be tested on. No one cares about your damage at any other level but the cap.

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This may be true, but to efficiently deduce the formulae, tests need to be conducted changing only one variable at a time. Since monster stats change from level to level, the only way to isolate dLevel is to test with characters of different levels against identical level mobs of the same type, equipping gear and assigning character stats to keep all other character variables the same ( as you can't change a mob's stats ).

If you recall the english enmity-testing exercise, he conducted a series of experiments with the intent to disprove the japanese claim that there were two enmity values, one static and one decaying. He ended up proving it. What was "obvious" through observation was found to be untrue through rigorous testing.