[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delily

Citation given: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...33#post2505233

Akiza basically want the summoner from FFXI supplanted into this game. The references to black mages was that if there was a significant damage difference between the 2 of them, people wouldn't be playing smn. As the population for smn is on par with BLM (according to the latest data), people are happy and including them. By all accounts, the data indicates people are playing the class. So why divert resources to reimplement them as such which would also require significant rebalancing? What's the expected ROI?

---

Thanks for providing the source. I totally forgot to read that census so it will be an actual good read.

The argument is not to rebalance the class at all. It is simply to make an aesthetic change to give summoner a more summoner feel. While I agree that it would take ressources away from the developers, I think a change like this one isn't overly the top since it doesn't require any balancing of numbers whatsoever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delily

Snip.

---

Delily, I don't think you're understanding. You still have Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan Egi as pets. The only change is instead of a casting animation of Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Miasma, Shadow Flare is replaced with a summon doing a 2.5 second attack.

In a perfect world it would be lesser primal egi doing our standard DoT spells, pet are primal egi, and limit break is elder primal egi.

@Dwill while having egi attack something for 18 seconds sounds cool it would become a issue. 4 DoT means 4 egis on one thing. A full pt with 3 SMN means 12 Egis on one thing. Would become overwhelming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

Delily, I don't think you're getting this. You still have Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan Egi as pets. The only change is instead of a casting animation of Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Miasma, Shadow Flare is replaced with a summon doing a 2.5 second attack.

In a perfect world it would be lesser primal egi doing our standard DoT spells, pet are primal egi, and limit break is elder primal egi

---

The way I got it is that duration and damage are unchanged, it would just be a graphical one and a rename of the DoTs. They could even introduce via a mini-quest à la Green Fire in WoW as in do a mini-quest line and your spell animation and name changes but power and and duration remains unchanged.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dwill

The way I got it is that duration and damage are unchanged, it would just be a graphical one and a rename of the DoTs. They could even introduce via a mini-quest à la Green Fire in WoW as in do a mini-quest line and your spell animation and name changes but power and and duration remains unchanged.

---

Right. Take Shadow Flare for example. Diabolos Egi comes out and does a move like this within the 3 second cast time window and places the shadow flare effect on the floor that last for 30 seconds with potency of 25 and slow effect.

I don't know if I agree with a rework per se, but I would like a couple more egi to play around with after level cap increase...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

Right. Take Shadow Flare for example. Diabolos Egi comes out and does a move like this within the 3 second cast time window and places the shadow flare effect on the floor that last for 30 seconds with potency of 25 and slow effect.

---

Pretty much. A graphical change like this could add a lot of flavor to the job without touching its balance or gameplay. And for the overwhelming amount of egi, this could be change by reducing their size drastically. Like be the size of a minion or even a little less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delily

With reference to my previous post, I am going to have to ask you to continue your development on Heavensward and bg fixes. Redesigning every single class and rebalancing the game like this is definitely out of scope. If you can make a real argument, please come back to my office.

---

During expansions mmorpg's change how classes work take WoW Warlock where its was originally a DoT Caster with a Pet but when they added Demonology it became Pet Based Class while still retaining it's DoTs. Most Pet Pet Classes have a huge level of interaction between the Master and Pet and tier level pets as well.

SE didn't intend for every Summoner to have Grauda as their go to pet by default even in open world I still see mostly Garuda Egi's. SE should have a quest that unlocks more powerful version of the Egis with Hard Mode Primal abilities which look like the Primals at 30% scale

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akiza

SE didn't intend for every Summoner to have Grauda as their go to pet by default even in open world I still see mostly Garuda Egi's. SE should have a quest that unlocks more powerful version of the Egis with Hard Mode Primal abilities which look like the Primals at 30% scale

---

You have absolutely zero idea what SE intended. Please stop lying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

You have absolutely zero idea what SE intended. Please stop lying.

---

Why did SE give the Summoner three Egis with more on the way if they only intended for the Summoner to only use Garuda. If that was the case SE should just rename the Summoner Garuda Master and give us the Garuda EX Primal as a Pet and call it a day.
Anyways it doesn't matter because from looking at the patch notes Ninja with it's elemental DoTs will replace the Summoner in most Raid Parties.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akiza

Why did SE give the Summoner three Egis with more on the way if they only intended for the Summoner to only use Garuda. If that was the case SE should just rename the Summoner Garuda Master and give us the Garuda EX Primal as a Pet and call it a day.
Anyways it doesn't matter because from looking at the patch notes Ninja with it's elemental DoTs will replace the Summoner in most Raid Parties.

---

Again, you have not even the slightest idea of what SE intended.　If you're going to continue to perpetuate this lie, don't expect devs to even consider anything you say (not that they would anyway given your track record).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

Again, you have not even the slightest idea of what SE intended.　If you're going to continue to perpetuate this lie, don't expect devs to even consider anything you say (not that they would anyway given your track record).

---

I still doubt that SE intended Summoners to use Garuda as their default Pet they can build the entire Summoner class around Garuda and rename it a Garuda Master and call it a day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akiza

During expansions mmorpg's change how classes work take WoW Warlock where its was originally a DoT Caster with a Pet but when they added Demonology it became Pet Based Class while still retaining it's DoTs. Most Pet Pet Classes have a huge level of interaction between the Master and Pet and tier level pets as well.

---

Did you ever play WoW? At all? Warlocks have always had 3 specs, and while each spec has been refined, all three have pretty much has the same. I'd also like to know which pets classes you've played, because for the most part, the summoner operates the same as every other pet caster class I've played.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delily

Did you ever play WoW? At all? Warlocks have always had 3 specs, and while each spec has been refined, all three have pretty much has the same. I'd also like to know which pets classes you've played, because for the most part, the summoner operates the same as every other pet caster class I've played.

---

Your point? Those games aren't this one. The devs have even stated themselves that SMN using Garuda only is not intended, and that they were working on some re-balance to Ifrit to make it just as viable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaonis

Your point? Those games aren't this one. The devs have even stated themselves that SMN using Garuda only is not intended, and that they were working on some re-balance to Ifrit to make it just as viable.

---

I had a response similar to your's (about buffing ifrit) but the forum preventing me from posting it. My comments about WoW were to point out that Akiza is wrong about warlocks. Demonology never turned you into a pet focused class, all it did was make you tougher and improve some base skills.

I actually love that it's a DoT class and it's why I decided to start playing it again. But with that said, the summoner pets desperately need to be re-worked. I really wanted to play a summoner when the game was in beta, and then I saw how the summons looked and almost immediately changed my mind. Now I'm only playing it for the DoTs, carbuncle (I'll miss him at 30 :(), and the books we use for weapons.

Hopefully one day the summons will look like actual summons instead of tiny elementals... ^^ Maybe even as a level 60 perk? I can always dream, can't I?

Summoner's pets definitely need to be re balanced if they are going to add Leviathan, Rumah and Shiva Egis otherwise Garuda Egi will dominate them. The Egis should have Hard Mode Primal abilities and look like the Primals at Highlander Hyur Scale.

Add a Primal Panel. Have Summon 1(Single Target) 2(Tank) 3(AOE).

You get to pick the look of your primal ala the Companion UI to change their Armor.

So you want you summon 1 to be Shivah change it in the appearance options.

This way they can add all the egis they want and people can decide what looks they want and all they have to do is balance 3 the roles.

They can even add a skill load out. Here are 10 tank skills pick 4 ect. Now you can tune your pet to you and your play style.

Give a UI option for the owner of the EGI to scale their size up for them on their screen only.

Now you can choose your primal abilities for the fight. The look you like. Tactically swap roles for fight mechanics. And not bother any one else with your giant primal.

WIN WIN WIN WIN for every one

Sell Primal Skins in the Store Muahahahahahahaha! (evil laugh)

Now go complain that DRK doesn't "feel" like FF11 DRK and let this thread die already.

Y'all have seen the necro thread that got resurrected after a year that complains Dragoons don't "feel" like LoLDragoons cause they don't have a pet or breath spells and jumps are lame and don't make a DRG right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akiza

Summoner's pets definitely need to be re balanced if they are going to add Leviathan, Rumah and Shiva Egis otherwise Garuda Egi will dominate them.

---

I agree with this portion of the post.　The rest is nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Einheri

A

Y'all have seen the necro thread that got resurrected after a year that complains Dragoons don't "feel" like LoLDragoons cause they don't have a pet or breath spells and jumps are lame and don't make a DRG right?

---

The guy who made the thread needed to be thrown into the looney bin though.　Especially since it was OP who revived it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

I agree with this portion of the post.　The rest is nonsense.



The guy who made the thread needed to be thrown into the looney bin though.　Especially since it was OP who revived it.

---

Actually the rest of the post is to make the Egi look like in actual summon with more primal abilities. The Egis already have NM Primal abilities already so adding Hard Mode Primal abilities and making them resemble the Primals at Hyur Highlander scale in 3.0 is entirely probable since the form and abilities of the Egi is linked to the Summoner Job stone.

I didn't say I misunderstood. I said it's nonsense.

Akiza... Just give it up. Summoner wasn't even good in XI. So what if their summons were of a larger scale? The game play allowed it. Your concepts and ideas have always been incredibly overpowered and illogical, and mostly for your own personal gains, whilst ignoring the entire in game lore behind summoners...

You guys are all still here?
The movies over...
Go home!

Yes

I would like a more classic summoner one with a real pet similar to the primal shape instead of the floating little element thing we have now. A pet that does strong bursts of damage nada job that's primary job is to use our pet. Not this DoT class, a real summoner.

Though SE won't do it, they've made nothing but bad decisions recently, proving their "butchering classic FF jobs" wasn't a one time thing that ends with smn, with the addition if dark knight

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IveraIvalice

Yes

I would like a more classic summoner one with a real pet similar to the primal shape instead of the floating little element thing we have now. A pet that does strong bursts of damage nada job that's primary job is to use our pet. Not this DoT class, a real summoner.

Though SE won't do it, they've made nothing but bad decisions recently, proving their "butchering classic FF jobs" wasn't a one time thing that ends with smn, with the addition if dark knight

---

Yes, because a Dark Knight using Dark Magic while wielding a two-handed sword is totally a butchering of the class.

By the way, which is the real summoner ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dwill

• The White Mage with AoE Nukes ?
• The White Mage with a one trick pony for summons ?
• The Black Mage with high MP cost AoE Nukes that were nearly never used ?
• The one that took them forever to cast for "Meh" damage ?
• The jack of all trade, master of none ?
• The ones where every body could summon them based on nothing but the player's choice ?
  
• The one where the near entire pool of summons is close to useless ?
• The one where you had nearly no control over and you lose everyone but the one who summons it ?

Go on, take your pick.

---

It's pretty funny to read what the wannabe Final Fantasy scholars are bringing for arguments though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dwill

Yes, because a Dark Knight using Dark Magic while wielding a two-handed sword is totally a butchering of the class.

---

Do you honestly think that drk will have hp sacrificing abilities to buff them as a tank class? Sure it's speculation but I highly doubt it, that wouldn't even make sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dwill

By the way, which is the real summoner ?

---

Play a FF game. I'll give you a hint, it's not a DoT job

@Dwill

They aren't Final Fantasy Scholars. They are FF11 players. If the class is not what it was in 11 its a bastardization and goes against everything.

The 007 hint dropped for the next class already has threads going saying SE is destroying the gun class every one wanted cause its may or may not be a dps. These people will never be happy and for every class there will be posts and posts about how its different and wrong.

Summoner isn't a summoner because it summons but doesn't summon like it does in 11.

DRK isn't a DRK because it doesn't DRK like 11. We can not give enough examples of FF universe lore and history to prove to them otherwise.

If the ff14 Summoner had five 60 sec cool downs, NO PET, that did damage but the spell effect was a primal instead of a fire ball for example would this thread not exist?

I feel guilty perpetuating this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IveraIvalice

Do you honestly think that drk will have hp sacrificing abilities to buff them as a tank class? Sure it's speculation but I highly doubt it, that wouldn't even make sense.

---

Myself, I think Dark Knight will have HP sacrifices which will replenish MP/TP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IveraIvalice

Play a FF game. I'll give you a hint, it's not a DoT job

---

Every job has DOTS even Ninja. Summoner and Scholar have more of them, so they can focus on doing other things (like controlling their pets) well while still dealing damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Einheri

@Dwill

They aren't Final Fantasy Scholars. They are FF11 players. If the class is not what it was in 11 its a bastardization and goes against everything.

The 007 hint dropped for the next class already has threads going saying SE is destroying the gun class every one wanted cause its may or may not be a dps. These people will never be happy and for every class there will be posts and posts about how its different and wrong.

Summoner isn't a summoner because it summons but doesn't summon like it does in 11.

DRK isn't a DRK because it doesn't DRK like 11. We can not give enough examples of FF universe lore and history to prove to them otherwise.
If the ff14 Summoner had five 60 sec cool downs, NO PET, that did damage but the spell was a primal instead of a fire ball for example would this thread not exist?

I feel guilty perpetuating this thread.

---

Don't know where ffxi came in but your whole theory is that everyone and their grandma wants ffxi here. And if I said "no" then the whole argument becomes invalid.

Not wanting a purely DoT smn does not mean "give me ffxi summoner or I hate everything"

I can't think of a single summoner in any FF game that is like it is here.
I'm honestly not here to argue, I said what I wanted too, SE will do nothing about it and we will all move on

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IveraIvalice

I can't think of a single summoner in any FF game that is like it is here.

---

While that might be the case, the issue is ultimately that while this is a FF numbered title it is also an MMO. Single Player game aspects are hard pressed to translate directly to an MMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IveraIvalice

Yes

I would like a more classic summoner one with a real pet similar to the primal shape instead of the floating little element thing we have now. A pet that does strong bursts of damage nada job that's primary job is to use our pet. Not this DoT class, a real summoner.

Though SE won't do it, they've made nothing but bad decisions recently, proving their "butchering classic FF jobs" wasn't a one time thing that ends with smn, with the addition if dark knight

---

FALSE

...The dark knight has no base class

do you realize if this phrase means what we think it means... that the entire armoury system will eventually become one big beautiful classless world?

That only the jobs will remain, that all the abilities will revolve around the creative concepts of the jobs.

This is HUGE, this is the type of thing that will steer gameplay in the right direction! We may not be living the dream yet but I love where this is heading!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Einheri

@Dwill

They are FF11 players. If the class is not what it was in 11 its a bastardization and goes against everything.

Summoner isn't a summoner because it summons but doesn't summon like it does in 11.

If the ff14 Summoner had five 60 sec cool downs, NO PET, that did damage but the spell effect was a primal instead of a fire ball for example would this thread not exist?

---

I contributed to this thread because I wanted to give feedback on how the Egis' design doesn't even compare to Carbuncle's, in terms of purpose that is, carbuncle is cute by nature, while the egis are cute because they're freaks of nature, or at least primal nature. as well as that the pet mechanics could use some serious improvement in the fun factor, because it doesn't contribute much at all to the gameplay. BTW I never played ff11 and never compared the egis to any other ff game.

I'm still in love the idea of primals and summoners at heart :)

SE is getting rid of classes in 3.0 anyways so will simply have jobs. The Summoner having a Hyur Highlander scaled Egi that resembled the Primals is not wanting a Final Fantasy XI Summoner its wanting a respectable pet.
Since the Egis already have Normal Mode Primal abilities giving the Egis Hard Mode Primal abilities is entirely within reason

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IveraIvalice

Do you honestly think that drk will have hp sacrificing abilities to buff them as a tank class? Sure it's speculation but I highly doubt it, that wouldn't even make sense.


Play a FF game. I'll give you a hint, it's not a DoT job

---

If you read any part of the thread there have been responses to your point, both snarky and not. summons have traditionally been glorified blm spells with longer cast times, even becoming over shadowed by those endgame black Mage spells. Summoner is not a job on its own in final fantasy, it has always been paired with something else. Dwill's point is that, summons are never the only or even the main part of any summoner

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner having a Hyur Highlander scaled Egi that resembled the Primals is not wanting a Final Fantasy XI Summoner

---

Except that's exactly what is it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IveraIvalice

Play a FF game. I'll give you a hint, it's not a DoT job

---

I'll let you guess what the majority of Final Fantasy games are. I'll give you a hint, there are not MMOs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Estevo

FALSE

...The dark knight has no base class

do you realize if this phrase means what we think it means... that the entire armoury system will eventually become one big beautiful classless world?
!

---

Or it's a 2nd job for MRD/PLD

I really enjoyed playing SMN/WHM in FFXI and i was looking forward to even cooler summons in IV and seeing First EGI was simply put a shock how awefull they are. The class itself is fine mechanically but its soul sucking and boring spamming dots while playing SMN in FFXI for all its flaws was EPIC. +1 Egi need a complete overall . I was so upset at seeing first egi in game i quit and only came back now when they announced Dark Knight will probably change to another class once i unlocked SMN.

What im interested in whether the devs honestly think the summons are fine as is?

Quote:

---

The class itself is fine mechanically but its soul sucking and boring spamming dots

---

Welcome to MMO pet classes 101, where when powerful enough all you need to do is sic yer pet on stuff and toss a heal here or there mindlessly outside of raiding. No really, if it's boring then why play it?

Also honestly, can we please drop this nonsense about how an MMO class is not like/should be like the other types in SINGLE PLAYER based games, outside the exception of FFXI, which... well tl;dr FFXI.
Summy isn't going to get any real massive overhaul at all. Maybe new egi skins but same/recreated/scrambled moves later down the road, but nothing else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

Except that's exactly what is it is.

---

Wanting a better aesthetic for summons isn't wanting 11. Its wanting a better aesthetic for summons. They are quite hideous compared to their primal brothers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Senliten

Summy isn't going to get any real massive overhaul at all. Maybe new egi skins but same/recreated/scrambled moves later down the road, but nothing else.

---

You nor I have any idea what they have planned for the job to make absolute statements like that. MMOs are constantly evolving. Who knows what this game, or more specifically SMN, will be like 5 years from now.