Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

It's frightening when he has a point.

Like, how did this thread make me have faith in FireMage?

What are you guys doing??

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Midareyukki, for the love of Hydaelyn, dont acknowledge or respect FireMage for his troll posts.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

It's frightening when he has a point.

Like, how did this thread make me have faith in FireMage?

What are you guys doing??

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Thing is, I always have a point. Funnily enough it's almost always the same point

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Thing is, I always have a point. Funnily enough it's almost always the same point

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But but but you say it in a mean way therefore ur wrong!!! :( :( :(

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Midareyukki, for the love of Hydaelyn, dont acknowledge or respect FireMage for his troll posts.

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I'm trying not to!! But goddamn, people make it hard as hell when the bare minimum effort of thought, "just don't be dead weight and waste the time of 3-7 other people", is being contested!

No one's asking you to be pixel bloody perfect. Quite a fair bit of people are invested in at least making sure their gameplay meets a minimum to allow the content to go smoothly rather than leeching off the effort of other people. If they don't want to raid, obviously they won't learn how to minmax and do amazingly, but at least follow a general gist rotation to make sure things go by smoothly.

And yet most in this thread speak and act as though this is too much to ask and that we should embrace and coddle Ice Mages or people who don't AoE in dungeons... or the same weirdoes who spam Veraero for some odd reason. Like, what the hell!

I get being new, and people should be understanding with new people. But holy hell, sometimes this thread made me feel like some people actually think spamming Scathe is fine and that others saying "That's not a good thing and it's actively wasting our time" is toxic.

At this point, yeah. When the answers you're getting are ridiculous and absurd, when the most absurdist poster actually presents something tame, you feel inclined to agree. And that feels dirty.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I'm trying not to!! But goddamn, people make it hard as hell when the bare minimum effort of thought, "just don't be dead weight and waste the time of 3-7 other people", is being contested!

No one's asking you to be pixel bloody perfect. Quite a fair bit of people are invested in at least making sure their gameplay meets a minimum to allow the content to go smoothly rather than leeching off the effort of other people. If they don't want to raid, obviously they won't learn how to minmax and do amazingly, but at least follow a general gist rotation to make sure things go by smoothly.

And yet most in this thread speak and act as though this is too much to ask and that we should embrace and coddle Ice Mages or people who don't AoE in dungeons... or the same weirdoes who spam Veraero for some odd reason. Like, what the hell!

I get being new, and people should be understanding with new people. But holy hell, sometimes this thread made me feel like some people actually think spamming Scathe is fine and that others saying "That's not a good thing and it's actively wasting our time" is toxic.

At this point, yeah. When the answers you're getting are ridiculous and absurd, when the most absurdist poster actually presents something tame, you feel inclined to agree. And that feels dirty.

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To be fair, we have not established what exactly it means to be a dead weight or a leech, as it's all subjective. While I don't care if a tank stops at a trash pack for a second or two to ensure they AoE all of it, someone else is ready to vote kick them out for being a leech and not playing as optimally as they should, for instance.

So what exactly are we talking about when we talk about being a dead weight or a leech?

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

To be fair, we have not established what exactly it means to be a dead weight or a leech, as it's all subjective. While I don't care if a tank stops at a trash pack for a second or two to ensure they AoE all of it, someone else is ready to vote kick them out for being a leech and not playing as optimally as they should, for instance.

So what exactly are we talking about when we talk about being a dead weight or a leech?

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When one's performance falls so far below what an SSS test for the given content would indicate was needed that everyone else would need some 5 ilvl greater than what would normally be required, just to carry their ass?

When one's choosing to double the time it takes everyone else to get their daily out of the way over, essentially, RP preferences (feigning that the content isn't trivial as it is) when they could not only survive but also make the run faster off of four buttons (3 defensives and their first AoE action) than by playing perfectly optimally against a single pack at a time.

Etc., etc.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

So what exactly are we talking about when we talk about being a dead weight or a leech?

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Speaking for myself? It's as I said. People who actively are detriments to the "bare minimum" flow of a party through ridiculous means and lack of effort.

Because, again, no one is expecting people to be pixel perfect in casual content, and that's not what parsing should be used for. And if anyone does use it outside its purpose, they can go kiss a GM's arse in Mordion Gaol.

I'd say the bare minimum to be met is knowing your rotation to an acceptable level to both clear the content and learn how to adjust.

With acceptable variations based on the sort of content. Because some content will still give you people that are inexperienced (dungeons*), but others require an agreed-upon level of entry (raids). It's simplistic, but for a short gist explanation, that's the line.

*New players should be accomodated to those levels, obviously. Because often misuse of skills and underperformance often happens because people don't know how to play the game. And if allowed to, it falls on mentors and other players willing to put in the time to reach out a hand and help them improve.
And in casual content at least I find a dead weight to be someone who actively misuses their whole kit, a la Ice Mages or Scathe Spammers.
But there is such a thing as a limit imo. Otherwise we'll still keep finding people excusing things like lack of AoE in Dead Ends. No one is expecting you to be pixel perfect, but also not full-on braindead after a while. I can understand a lv 50 healer still spamming heals because they're afraid that one slap too hard will kill the tank or the party. But definitely inexcusable at Smileton, like... come on. Unless the party is that terrible and standing on every glowy orange circle in the gravel, you shouldn't be that worried.

Guys I think we've at least moved past the idea of parsing tools in regular dungeons and trials. Let's not cause this thread to get more warped than it already is.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Guys I think we've at least moved past the idea of parsing tools in regular dungeons and trials. Let's not cause this thread to get more warped than it already is.

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Understood ; - ; my apologies. Brain fries when you end up agreeing with a glorified red mage.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

To be fair, we have not established what exactly it means to be a dead weight or a leech, as it's all subjective. While I don't care if a tank stops at a trash pack for a second or two to ensure they AoE all of it, someone else is ready to vote kick them out for being a leech and not playing as optimally as they should, for instance.

So what exactly are we talking about when we talk about being a dead weight or a leech?

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Being worse than a Duty Support NPC for one

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Originally Posted by Saranade

This is so toxic and horrible that you think this is the standard measurement - you should and probably will be dismissed hopefully at some point. Good luck with your third party tools and attitude.

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Don't feed the very well known troll. He feeds on feeling his supposed great superiority to others. Would hate to watch his bubble burst, and never see him again...oh, wait...

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Being worse than a Duty Support NPC for one

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This is my bar.

If you're worse than the NPC's the devs purposefully made do a bad job of DPS (no aoe) then you are below par.

Have we seen the toxicity in WoW's forums? Yeah, no thank you. I'm loving the spirit of this game, and devs already stated there won't be mods due to what we are currently seeing in WoW. Thankfully the Devs have foresight on this. The only mod I'd be fine with is a RP Mod so you know who's all role players and what not.

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Originally Posted by Kira619

Have we seen the toxicity in WoW's forums? Yeah, no thank you. I'm loving the spirit of this game, and devs already stated there won't be mods due to what we are currently seeing in WoW. Thankfully the Devs have foresight on this.

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All but their Ultimate-equivalent crowd are far less numbers-obsessed than we are already (and have been since early Heavensward), and their forums are no more toxic than ours.

Nor does that toxicity specifically come from the average player, too, having convenient real-time, in-game access to throughput information (which is the only difference between using a parser and just uploading a battle-log).

Note that communities will point at (perceived) imbalances, and regularly discriminate against particular class/job/spec/build choices (just, far less informatively, so that things are led more by memes, hype, and conflated anecdotes), even without parsers. They just tend to know less what they're talking about, and half the discussion turns into finger-pointing in the process of even gathering the basic facts that would otherwise be agreed upon.

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Originally Posted by Joven

Just wanted to say there is already a method of determining how you're doing compared to others in your class. It's called the Enmity Meter right beside your name. You're ranked A - however many people there are with a bar showing if your enmity is increasing or decreasing. If your number is above those in the same class then congrats, you're good.

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Enmity gauge is a very vague metric and helps very little. Besides, who in their sane mind would bring a dupe job in EX and higher outside custom runs just to check how well they're doing?

At its very best scenario, enmity only tells whether you're dealing marginally higher or lower personal dps vs other DPS and that's it. It could be you're higher by 1000... or 500... or 80 even and the bar will still tell you you're higher. That's not very helpful at all. What if you're a DRG dealing 5,000dps and you're comparing yourself to another 4,930dps DRG? Is that 'good'? (spoilers: that's an average healer's dps)

On healers, tanks, and any job that contributes more via party buffs, they're even more obscured.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Enmity gauge is a very vague metric and helps very little. Besides, who in their sane mind would bring a dupe job in EX and higher outside custom runs just to check how well they're doing?

At its very best scenario, enmity only tells whether you're dealing marginally higher or lower personal dps vs other DPS and that's it. It could be you're higher by 1000... or 500... or 80 even and the bar will still tell you you're higher. That's not very helpful at all. What if you're a DRG dealing 7200dps and you're comparing yourself to another 7130dps DRG? Is that 'good'? On healers, tanks, and any job that contributes more via party buffs, they're even more obscured.

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And with so short an enmity bar and such huge tank enmity modifiers, the difference between a good player and a mediocre one of equal ilvl... is a couple pixels.

Hard Disagree, you only need to venture into anything inclusive related (such as their DnD removal of race thread) to see how bad it is on their forum. FFXIV has won the game awards for best community, WoW wasn't even listed in the nominations. In gaming alone, I felt more welcomed in my brief time leveling this character than my entire experience playing WoW. I still remember when I hit level 30, half of the players in the bar celebrated and did fireworks. These were players I've never played before in my life. Just a couple of days ago, I was just chilling in Ul'Dah and a random player just gave me a minion for free. Just out of the blue. That's when I realized "Oh, so this is what people were talking about."

I've played WoW for years, and not once have random players celebrated an achievement I've done or gave me anything for free. The most would be a random wow player using an item to transform me into something, and that's on a RP server, which is the most chill.

So yeah, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree on FFXIV being anywhere near as bad as WoW. When this place starts coming up with a plethora of threads making fun of inclusive ideas such as pronouns, race, and more, than we can have a discussion. Though I don't believe that will be happening since the Mods, from what I hear, are usually on their A game.

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Originally Posted by Kira619

FFXIV has won the game awards for best community

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Yes, an irony that hasn't gone unnoticed here or among other communities at large.

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So yeah, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree on FFXIV being anywhere near as bad as WoW. When this place starts coming up with a plethora of threads making fun of inclusive ideas such as pronouns, race, and more, than we can have a discussion. Though I don't believe that will be happening since the Mods, from what I hear, are usually on their A game.

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This has got to be grade A satire, right?

Have you really not seen any of the dozen+ Titanragingfistbro/Ativan/Etc., troll threads here, specifically on those subjects? They're a near perfect analog to the shit-stirring trans posts on WoW (where such posts are lead by a troll seemingly in support of such and such cause, but style that "advocacy" in such a purposely belligerent and hyperbolic manner as to just be inviting dog-piles against them and those they "support").

Our mods, meanwhile, are inexistant outside of taking down occasional 200+ page megathreads if they start getting too constructive and/or coordinated in their criticisms?

We're no worse than most, but neither is this place some unique paradise. It's just better at keeping tensions quiet (to fester) and hyping the heck out of what would otherwise be considered normal niceties.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yes, an irony that hasn't gone unnoticed here or among other communities at large.



This has got to be grade A satire, right?

Have you really not seen any of the dozen+ Titanragingfistbro/Ativan/Etc., troll threads here, specifically on those subjects?

Our mods, meanwhile, are inexistant outside of taking down occasional 200+ page megathreads if they start getting too constructive and/or coordinated in their criticisms.

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Oh, the forums isn't really where the difference is. By definition, the forums are full of people who are there to complain.

The difference is in actual behavior in-game, and, frankly, the people who claim that WoW isn't toxic? They would fit right in there, and don't notice the toxicity from there...because they're part of it, and a main part of the source of it. Of course it's not toxic to them. They LIKE that kind of atmosphere, and they enjoy it. To them, that's how they want it all the time. They want to point out other people that they can be superior to. That's heaven to them. They just want to make that the norm in FFXIV.

The only saving grace here is that FFXIV won't allow it past a point. I think the devs main stance against damage meters and the like is that they know that if they were built in, they'd have to spend a lot more time (and money) enforcing the rules against mostly the people who clamored the most for the said damage meters and other similar things.

That way lies madness. No, let's not go there.

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Originally Posted by Kira619

Hard Disagree, you only need to venture into anything inclusive related (such as their DnD removal of race thread) to see how bad it is on their forum. FFXIV has won the game awards for best community, WoW wasn't even listed in the nominations. In gaming alone, I felt more welcomed in my brief time leveling this character than my entire experience playing WoW. I still remember when I hit level 30, half of the players in the bar celebrated and did fireworks. These were players I've never played before in my life. Just a couple of days ago, I was just chilling in Ul'Dah and a random player just gave me a minion for free. Just out of the blue. That's when I realized "Oh, so this is what people were talking about."

I've played WoW for years, and not once have random players celebrated an achievement I've done or gave me anything for free. The most would be a random wow player using an item to transform me into something, and that's on a RP server, which is the most chill.

So yeah, we're definitely going to have to agree to disagree on FFXIV being anywhere near as bad as WoW. When this place starts coming up with a plethora of threads making fun of inclusive ideas such as pronouns, race, and more, than we can have a discussion. Though I don't believe that will be happening since the Mods, from what I hear, are usually on their A game.

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Bro... lol. Is your level 34 summoner your highest level job? If so, maybe step back and realize you are not experienced enough with 14's community to have a completely educated opinion, otherwise you're going to be in for an unpleasant surprise.

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

Oh, the forums isn't really where the difference is. By definition, the forums are full of people who are there to complain.

The difference is in actual behavior in-game, and, frankly, the people who claim that WoW isn't toxic? They would fit right in there, and don't notice the toxicity from there...because they're part of it, and a main part of the source of it. Of course it's not toxic to them. They LIKE that kind of atmosphere, and they enjoy it. To them, that's how they want it all the time. They want to point out other people that they can be superior to. That's heaven to them. They just want to make that the norm in FFXIV.

The only saving grace here is that FFXIV won't allow it past a point. I think the devs main stance against damage meters and the like is that they know that if they were built in, they'd have to spend a lot more time (and money) enforcing the rules against mostly the people who clamored the most for the said damage meters and other similar things.

That way lies madness. No, let's not go there.

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Who in the world is claiming WoW doesn't have a toxic community? Both WoW and 14 have toxic communities, just different types of toxic.

Again, if we limit in game parsers to ONLY content with enrages (extreme, savage, ultimate), the people that are so worried about this will not be affected whatsoever. Do you realize how small the raiding community in 14 actually is? A tiny minority of players, and the ultimate crowd is even smaller than that. An in game parser for this content only is not going to have any negative affect on dungeon runners whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yes, an irony that hasn't gone unnoticed here or among other communities at large.

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Oh that's not surprising at all. No community will ever say their community is outright bad. Because too many people tie their identities to the gaming communities they associate with. FFXIV has constantly had a reputation of having a pleasant community. You combine that with the fact that no other MMO cracked even the nomination and it's not surprising that other communities are getting the "my poop smell like roses" moment lol.

I've always put it this way. Did you think folks in the south who endorsed slavery saw themselves as villains? Did you think folks who did not want integration saw themselves as bad? So why in the world should we expect folks who are toxic today to self reflect.
History is constantly repeating itself and has shown that only when generations pass that people reflect and be like "Yoo, that group was messed up."

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This has got to be grade A satire, right?

Have you really not seen any of the dozen+ Titanragingfistbro/Ativan/Etc., troll threads here, specifically on those subjects?

Our mods, meanwhile, are inexistant outside of taking down occasional 200+ page megathreads if they start getting too constructive and/or coordinated in their criticisms.

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Honestly it's not, I've just never seen those threads. Though right now, I can go to the WoW main general discussion thread and see 4 threads in the last 24 hours dealing with this. So even if it does happen here, it's definitely not as frequent.

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Originally Posted by Kira619

Oh that's not surprising at all. No community will ever say their community is outright bad. Because too many people tie their identities to the gaming communities they associate with. FFXIV has constantly had a reputation of having a pleasant community. You combine that with the fact that no other MMO cracked even the nomination and it's not surprising that other communities are getting the "my poop smell like roses" moment lol.

I've always put it this way. Did you think folks in the south who endorsed slavery saw themselves as villains? Did you think folks who did not want integration saw themselves as bad? So why in the world should we expect folks who are toxic today to self reflect.
History is constantly repeating itself and has shown that only when generations pass that people reflect and be like "Yoo, that group was messed up."

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I think you're missing Shurrikhan's point. 14's community is known for its toxic positivity and passive aggressiveness.

Generally, the random person you're going to run into in WoW or 14 is going to be anywhere from pleasant to completely neutral, but whereas when you run into an unpleasant person in WoW you're more likely to run into someone who doesn't care about TOS rules against harassment and is more likely to react aggressively. In 14, the TOS is so strict and punishing that the unpleasant people adopt a more passive aggressive stance where they can still be toxic, just in such a way that they can't easily be hit by the TOS book of judgement. And then you have people that will mad whenever someone tries to offer advice, you have enablers for leeches ("let them play how they want!", "let's just get this done guys :)", etc). You have idiotic drama outside of duties with things like stalkers who can't easily be reported because TECHNICALLY they're not breaking any rules, but boy howdy do they constantly make the person they're stalking uncomfortable and upset. At one point the hunt community was EXTREMELY toxic, from people thinking they're entitled to A and S rank marks to groups of mark spawners and train conductors enacting blacklists against people who didn't follow along with the clique, I don't know how it is now but in ShB it was embarrassing how awful that community was.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Bro... lol. Is your level 34 summoner your highest level job? If so, maybe step back and realize you are not experienced enough with 14's community to have a completely educated opinion, otherwise you're going to be in for an unpleasant surprise.

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Or people can just have different experiences? I have a few FFXIV characters, all played at different times. I've also played WoW for years, all the way back in classic. I've never said I was the spokesperson for the FFXIV community, but even if my 34 summoner was my only character, that doesn't invalidate the experience I had/have playing either game. Hence why I said I hard disagree, versus "you're wrong." It's perfectly fine to disagree with me, it's not fine to try and invalidate me.

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Originally Posted by Kira619

Or people can just have different experiences? I have a few FFXIV characters, all played at different times. I've also played WoW for years, all the way back in classic. I've never said I was the spokesperson for the FFXIV community, but even if my 34 summoner was my only character, that doesn't invalidate the experience I had/have playing either game. Hence why I said I hard disagree, versus "you're wrong." It's perfectly fine to disagree with me, it's not fine to try and invalidate me.

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Please do not twist my words around, thanks. I never said your experience didn't matter, I said if you're only level 34 then you've not had enough exposure to the game to have a COMPLETELY educated opinion. This isn't invalidating you. It's saying you literally have not been exposed to the game long enough to know as much about it as you could.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Again, if we limit in game parsers to ONLY content with enrages (extreme, savage, ultimate), the people that are so worried about this will not be affected whatsoever. Do you realize how small the raiding community in 14 actually is? A tiny minority of players, and the ultimate crowd is even smaller than that. An in game parser for this content only is not going to have any negative affect on dungeon runners whatsoever.

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So how do you think you could limit an in-game parser to only that (as you acknowledged) tiny community? Also, the devs are not in the habit of giving anything special (past the savage/ultimate content itself) to a segment that small, anyway, so why would they want to start parsers there?

I think the devs leave it this way on purpose. Those who really want a parser, can have one, but they can't misuse it against other people, w/o getting banned, and if it becomes a problem, they can just cut off the source of the data to the parser, however that works, and leave it that way. A built-in one would cause a lot more trouble if it was disabled or removed. As you say, the community that really wants it...is tiny, so why would the devs want to spend time and effort on it more than they already do?

I don't think they really are interested in boosting said community any more than absolutely necessary. I'm not attacking said community, just noting that while they do add new savage/ultimate content as they go, it's only 'enough' at one time to give that tiny community something to do, and seemingly no more than that. YMMV, of course.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

I think you're missing Shurrikhan's point. 14's community is known for its toxic positivity and passive aggressiveness.

Generally, the random person you're going to run into in WoW or 14 is going to be anywhere from pleasant to completely neutral, but whereas when you run into an unpleasant person in WoW you're more likely to run into someone who doesn't care about TOS rules against harassment and is more likely to react aggressively. In 14, the TOS is so strict and punishing that the unpleasant people adopt a more passive aggressive stance where they can still be toxic, just in such a way that they can't easily be hit by the TOS book of judgement. And then you have people that will mad whenever someone tries to offer advice, you have enablers for leeches ("let them play how they want!", "let's just get this done guys :)", etc). You have idiotic drama outside of duties with things like stalkers who can't easily be reported because TECHNICALLY they're not breaking any rules, but boy howdy do they constantly make the person they're stalking uncomfortable and upset. At one point the hunt community was EXTREMELY toxic, from people thinking they're entitled to A and S rank marks to groups of mark spawners and train conductors enacting blacklists against people who didn't follow along with the clique, I don't know how it is now but in ShB it was embarrassing how awful that community was.

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Oh I understood Shurrikhan's point. To clarify, never had I said 14's community was perfect by any means. (The stalking aspect is by far the worst.), but I also figured much of the complaints towards 14 would come from a mindset more suited with WoW. So, it's not surprising that the mindsets that closer aligns with WoW would find 14 to have toxic positivity.


Edit: So very strange, I can't seem to reply anymore cause I reached my maximum posts for the day? So I'll just respond tomorrow.

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So how do you think you could limit an in-game parser to only that (as you acknowledged) tiny community? Also, the devs are not in the habit of giving anything special (past the savage/ultimate content itself) to a segment that small, anyway, so why would they want to start parsers there?

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It's a hypothetical, like this entire thread. We're arguing in hypotheticals. And the "want" is because that is content that has hard enrages that if you don't meet the DPS check, you fail.

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I think the devs leave it this way on purpose. Those who really want a parser, can have one, but they can't misuse it against other people, w/o getting banned, and if it becomes a problem, they can just cut off the source of the data to the parser, however that works, and leave it that way. A built-in one would cause a lot more trouble if it was disabled or removed. As you say, the community that really wants it...is tiny, so why would the devs want to spend time and effort on it more than they already do?

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Agreed with this. I've said already I personally don't care if they're added since ACT does exist. My whole issue in this thread is most of the arguments AGAINST an in-game parsing tool have been in such bad faith. The best argument actually stated in this thread against parsing is still "YoshiP said he doesn't want them in game and we have a don't ask don't tell policy about ACT". Just sucks for console players.

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I don't think they really are interested in boosting said community any more than absolutely necessary. I'm not attacking said community, just noting that while they do add new savage/ultimate content as they go, it's only 'enough' at one time to give that tiny community something to do, and seemingly no more than that. YMMV, of course.

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On the flip side of that same coin, what harm does it do if for only that content? I can't imagine an in game parsing tool taking up a significant amount of dev time, the info is already there in the combat log. And again, it's helpful because of the enrages of that content.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

I'll consider it. Not to seem like I'm pity seeking, but the last month has been really brutal for me and I don't know that I have it in me to listen to an hour and a half of *that*. Plus I already have a hard time listening to long videos of someone just talking.

Damn post limit, I kept hitting it all day yesterday...

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Its your call of course :) Maybe bookmark it and come back?

Take care.

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Originally Posted by Kira619

Oh I understood Shurrikhan's point. To clarify, never had I said 14's community was perfect by any means. (The stalking aspect is by far the worst.), but I also figured much of the complaints towards 14 would come from a mindset more suited with WoW. So, it's not surprising that the mindsets that closer aligns with WoW would find 14 to have toxic positivity.

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Fair enough. But it's not really fair to say "mindsets that closer align with WoW" when there are plenty of 14 players who have never touched WoW and are aware of the toxic undercurrent of 14.

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

Oh, the forums isn't really where the difference is. By definition, the forums are full of people who are there to complain.

The difference is in actual behavior in-game, and, frankly, the people who claim that WoW isn't toxic? They would fit right in there, and don't notice the toxicity from there...because they're part of it, and a main part of the source of it. Of course it's not toxic to them. They LIKE that kind of atmosphere, and they enjoy it. To them, that's how they want it all the time. They want to point out other people that they can be superior to. That's heaven to them. They just want to make that the norm in FFXIV.

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Ngl, that seems like projective xenophobia, and a conclusion hardly tenable if one had played significant amounts of that game.

Your argument here relies on intentionally conflating a term. You fully admit that (a long-time, pragmatic viewpoint on what constitutes) "toxicity" in WOW would be different from toxicity here. Yet you apply the less fitting / stricter definition only in one direction, to the effect of "XIV good; other bad."

Toxicity there, for instance, might include abusing legalities, such as leveraging the letter of the law to corrupt its spirit (to bait, despite and through obvious social breech of social contract yourself, others into making a minor but punishable breech of ToA). It might involve entitlement, such as by wasting everyone else's time in expecting them to carry one through their gross lack of preparation well outside expectable deviation from norms on the mere basis that they chose to use a random matchmaker (and thereby, somehow, specifically to be grouped with that specific person rather than just anyone within reasonable estimates), or --on the opposite extreme-- wasting everyone's time by holding them to an unreasonably standard before making any significant step forward. It might involve harassment as determined through malicious intent, regardless of whether it be spoken, written, emoted, or even just through repeated and conspicuous presence not otherwise reasonably warrantable.

On the other hand, it won't likely include things like giving advice, even if it's sternly worded (since most would reasonably expect you to have equipped more than just your basic single-target combo... by level 40, let alone 90), or to dodge AoEs that were clearly telegraphed more two seconds prior to their actuation. It might not include giving complete tacit powers over to the tank even in content too trivial for that to have any significant advantage on the mere basis that doing otherwise might invoke either communication (since only silence can risk no toxicity, I guess?) or a faux pas.

Would WoW's community then be toxic by WoW's standards (or, the most commonly shared stances upon them)? Some parts of it, probably... which the vast majority of that community wouldn't then be happy with. (They tend not to be happy, either, with systems that give rise to that -- see that community's rough consensus against the most notable consequences of failure being dumped on just 1 in 5 players in any given M+ run due to how keystones work.)

But, so would XIV's community. Probably more so. Granted, that wouldn't then be a comparison wholly fair to XIV, either. You'd need to find some understanding of "toxicity" shared between both ends and compare from that, not tossing frameworks from a "police state's" approach onto a comparatively "anarchical" one in full and with no further context.

If you're to contrast communities on the basis of a shared term of unshared meaning, wouldn't it make more sense to do so only on the basis of the meanings therein that are shared across each community involved in that comparison? Frankly, anything less seems intended, from the start, to generate only skewed results -- rather disingenuous, to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Nor does that toxicity specifically come from the average player, too, having convenient real-time, in-game access to throughput information (which is the only difference between using a parser and just uploading a battle-log).

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I'd disagree.

Top tier mythic raiders are pretty laid back within their own circles. They don't usually interact with community at large. Is rare to see them pugging with the masses. The toxicity is most prevalent with the sweaty neckbeards that try to emulate them. And having in game DPS meters would enable and encourage these try-hards to have their in game hissy fits.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Fair enough. But it's not really fair to say "mindsets that closer align with WoW" when there are plenty of 14 players who have never touched WoW and are aware of the toxic undercurrent of 14.

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*raises hand* ^^

Never touched WoW, definitely saw some crap from our community in and outside the game.

Let's not kid ourselves. The community can get pretty bleak. It's not just crappy comments. There are some royal creeps out there, some people actively grief in content, and there's quite a lot of toxicity from people who should be more responsible. It's why we even call them Burger King Crowns.

Sure. We might not even reach the heels of WoW, nor do we want to.

But I already mentioned before. We very likely won't, you know why? Because people are this against that sort of thing, the ToS is really restrictive and because the rest of the game is so fluffy and doesn't push you on being a hardcore raider that this would have A LOT of scrutiny.
Again, I'm all up for cautionary tales, but at some point we need to understand the context we're in. People say "This is how WoW started", but did WoW had a community like ours to begin with? A dev team like ours to begin with?

Besides, we can always put restrictions in place to further protect people who might feel vulnerable to that sort of thing. Either keep the results personal to them and ask them if they want to make things public. That way, people can reveal their results to those with the know-how to analyze them and figure out what to do and where to improve.

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Originally Posted by Effendi

I'd disagree.

Top tier mythic raiders are pretty laid back within their own circles. They don't usually interact with community at large. Is rare to see them pugging with the masses. The toxicity is most prevalent with the sweaty neckbeards that try to emulate them. And having in game DPS meters would enable and encourage these try-hards to have their in game hissy fits.

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This is pretty true in experiences I have seen. Most toxicity comes from midcore players who think they are a lot better than they actually are.

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Originally Posted by Effendi

I'd disagree.

Top tier mythic raiders are pretty laid back within their own circles. They don't usually interact with community at large. Is rare to see them pugging with the masses. The toxicity is most prevalent with the sweaty neckbeards that try to emulate them. And having in game DPS meters would enable and encourage these try-hards to have their in game hissy fits.

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Exactly. Most actual mythic raiders are good people to be around. They know they're playing a different game, more or less. It's what I call the 'wanna-be' players who cause most of the trouble, except that WoW is not at all effective at blunting those tendencies, and when people who get tired of their crap leave, it just concentrates it even more. I think that's basically what has happened.

As far as the perceived 'FFXIV toxicity', I've run into more toxic people in one thread on FFXIV's forums than I have in two years of FFXIV in-game. Slant that however you like, as I know some of you will do it anyway. Toxic people exist in FFXIV, I'll not deny, but the sheer quantitative difference is absolutely huge in comparison.

Some of you have attributed other motives to me, or tried to twist what I have said, but, really, you can cut down what I want to a very simple concept: I don't want FFXIV's 'normal' interaction with other players to ever turn into anything like what I saw in WoW in the last 3-4 years I played. Anything that I think could contribute to a slippery slope toward that kind of BS coming to FFXIV, I will be against. And, yes, in-game damage meters was a huge piece of where it started, many years ago, and since ACT exists, I see zero upside of having one actually built into the game.

You can of course, advocate what you like. I just don't have to agree with you, or you agree with me.

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Originally Posted by Effendi

I'd disagree.

Top tier mythic raiders are pretty laid back within their own circles. They don't usually interact with community at large. Is rare to see them pugging with the masses. The toxicity is most prevalent with the sweaty neckbeards that try to emulate them. And having in game DPS meters would enable and encourage these try-hards to have their in game hissy fits.

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The kind of judgments made among that level are based on far more detail, typically with greater sample size (or, until that breadth of samples are available, based on sims crafted for a given fight profile). Being able to see a number in real time, rather than only being able to plug it into fflogs or an equivalent site later, is not that. That wall you fear for was long since breached, independently of real-time, in-game information, which is the only difference formed from a in-game parser. Making summative analyses of one's logs outside the game already falls safely within the ToA.

That said, I'm not saying I want a direct parser to be featured as the norm. They're problematic, too, if only for fixation on the merely a portion of relevant details and being too skewed by things both outside of player control and easily compensated for (like gear) to act as a decent metric of relative performance.

I'd certainly agree that there's a lot of room to make sure people have the information (and awareness of what parts of the picture they lack) to, in replacing uninformed finger-pointing or rapid disbands for fear of being called out for parsing if one makes an informed decision, with the goal that the conversations that would follow an unambiguous laying of facts (all have the same list of numbers) would be as productive and conflict-free as possible (as per when each also has the same understanding of said shared numbers).

There's a lot of polish to be done, imo, before a parser would be worth adding now, given how long it's already been delayed anyways; it's just not for fear of making anything worse, since all that could go wrong essentially already has, just through different forms (ban threats, overdefensiveness, finger-pointing, feeling gag ordered into rapid disbandment, etc).

It's more a matter of these critiques being ill-aimed. The problems being mentioned are both already here and separate from real-time, in-game throughput information (as per damage meters / parsers, as compared to just logs). Which in turn keeps us from looking at how we could mitigate the conflicts the status quo already rakes us through or otherwise productively examining our existing points of conflict and how not only new features but also what exists prior to or without them specifically interact with those points.

The hissy fits already exist and are regularly seen in game, all the worst for the fact that if, say, a normally "undertuned" job notes that they're objectively doing just fine, they just gave those who believed (uninformedly) otherwise or (knew this but) are spiteful about their own failings, they'd have just handed the local, friendly witchhunter an axe for their neck.

It's sad that people don't understand what toxicity actually is and that meters would allow to see who actually is toxic

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

This is pretty true in experiences I have seen. Most toxicity comes from midcore players who think they are a lot better than they actually are.

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Id agree with this. Nicely put.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

It's sad that people don't understand what toxicity actually is and that meters would allow to see who actually is toxic

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I tend to find that some people are..shall we say..predisposed...to that mindset from the beginning?

Something for you to consider, no?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I tend to find that some people are..shall we say..predisposed...to that mindset from the beginning?

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Not doubting it, but how do you mean, more specifically? Or, since it's a predisposition, is there a place that previously disposed it more specific than just "elsewhere (certainly not from us!)" or the like?

There was a term bandied about on WoW for a bit to describe the interactions that Mythic+'s keystone system (not the timers, nor the difficulty, but just the way that only one player gets punished in that noticeable fashion [key downgrade] for the party as a whole failing) -- player-unfriendly-ing design.

Here, the biggest conflicts we seem to come across, though, are dually at the most casual group content levels (disparity between people playing the content as it is [trivial], and people playing it as they imagine/want it to be [decently threatening]) and at levels of entry towards the other side of that learning curve/cliff [Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate], especially when one hasn't had the sum of luck and/or will to figure out what they can optimize or even that they can. Might there be improvements that could be made to or around either of those areas that would reduce player frustrations and, perhaps thereby, the likelihood of "toxic" encounters?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I tend to find that some people are..shall we say..predisposed...to that mindset from the beginning?

Something for you to consider, no?

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Nothing you say is worth anything on this topic, remember? What I stated was a fact. Not pulling your weight in a cooperative setting is objectively being toxic

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Not doubting it, but how do you mean, more specifically? Or, since it's a predisposition, is there a place that previously disposed it more specific than just "elsewhere (certainly not from us!)" or the like?

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There are people who...lets just say...are more than willing when the situation arises, to disregard the better angels of their nature and allow the more...adversarial facets of their personality free rein. They have that nature concealed or restrained, but when circumstances permit, or they are in an environment that enables that part of their personality, they feel free to..indulge.

Many years ago, a book called Lord of the Flies illustrated that behaviour. Given free rein or "tacit permission" to exhibit shall we say..less than civil attitudes, will gladly do so, especially when confronted with that behaviour, have a convenient excuse.

The mentality "They are a bad so its fine for me to scream abuse at them, swear at them, kick them, they need to git gud or GET OUT, they are BENEATH ME" comes to mind.

Gong back to WOW, I am reminded of two instances where a "raid leader" used dps charts to continually harass a player to the point they came in one day and bragged how they drove the player out of the game completely. They were PROUD that they "got rid of the dead weight", "weed out the bads".

What gets lost in the back and forth here is one immutable fact: that there is another human being at the other end of that keyboard.

I will also ask this: would those who make those kind of comments ever DARE do so to the other persons face? The answer is a flat no, as that highlights the other side to this kind of predisposition: those who do are also snivelling cowards..as is obvious: walking up to someone in public and screaming abuse at them has often severe consequences.

Do it in a workplace or other social setting? Hope you like handcuffs.

One of my own rules is simple: if you wouldnt have the guts to say it to their faces, in person, then dont say it.