Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW

"You're still ignoring the fact that every numerical entry into the FF universe has been vastly different from its predecessors. They've all had some carry over (races,chocobos, themes, etc) but, combat, progression, etc has all been completely different.

And you havent addressed the fact FFXI 2.0 would actually negatively impact the success of FFXIV (given the peak subscriptions of each). "

Apparently you have not played many of the FF series, most of them are quite alike with little changes, most of them for the better or to give you a new "feel" to the game. FFXI took a turn based system and made it flow, it was still nearly like the others in the menu operation even through battle. I completely agree with some of the above posters, FFXIV has chosen to be a WoW follower and not follow FFXI.

And yes FFXI was difficult, sometimes overly, but that's what was great about it. It gave you something to strive for, and had tons of content to keep you busy even if you could not obtain or do the "harder" content.

3rd- to say that it would actually negatively impact subscriptions? Most people keep all accounts active or move from one to another, so they really don't lose anyone, and on top of that FFXI is not far from death, meaning they will lose those people forever if they don't.

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Originally Posted by Gideon

You're still ignoring the fact that every numerical entry into the FF universe has been vastly different from its predecessors. They've all had some carry over (races,chocobos, themes, etc) but, combat, progression, etc has all been completely different.

And you havent addressed the fact FFXI 2.0 would actually negatively impact the success of FFXIV (given the peak subscriptions of each).

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Your wrong most of the older FF series had very slight differences in the combat mostly in ways that impacted the way you advance and layed out/ applyed your skills and abilities that aside the battle systems were always turn based and had very close similarities.

The only FF games that started to become really different are FF12 and FF13 taking on a more automated battle that the majority disliked due to becoming accustomed to their fav style of combat within the series.
Yet even those two titles FF12 and FF13 remained in some way turn based with close resemblances to the previous titles, as a matter of fact FF12 was very alike to FFXI in its open world combat, NM’s and with characters able to progress in all weapon choices while remaining in some form turn based.

The Final Fantasy series until recent have always kept to the series, FF14 the original was still a slower paced strategy system which resembled the gaming style of the previous games.
If it doesn’t play like Final Fantasy I’m sorry but that is no longer a complete Final Fantasy experience.

Play FFXI if you want that experience...

This was necro'd a while ago and it's still going? Anyway, it's not like WoW.. WoW is a thousand times smoother.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

Play FFXI if you want that experience...

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Go play WoW if you want that experience.....

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Originally Posted by Vandark

Go play WoW if you want that experience.....

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I play FFXIV for a 'similar' experience to WoW.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

I play FFXIV for a 'similar' experience to WoW.

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Congrats on converting our series, now we want some back.

Having played EQ1 for years and FFXI for years, I’m scratching my head regarding what major innovations FFXI brought to the genre. The only thing that I can think of is the Auction House, which saved players significant amounts of time that would have otherwise been spent farming the old fashioned way.

In fact, many of the arguments used here to complain about how 14 is too “casual friendly” work perfectly when viewing the AH in historical context. I can just see the complaints now…”Real MMO players farm their gear, or buy their gear from another person in the bazaar! The interaction fostered a sense of in game COMMUNITY. The AH just makes the process too easy, and fosters laziness in the player base.”

In many ways, FFXI was a sub-standard mmo; the technological limits of the PS2 handicapped the game severely, and the game had an almost comedic lack of monster variety. I honestly believe that the FF brand name is the only reason the game succeeded. Yoshi has gone on record saying that many of 1.0’s failures stem from Square’s belief that the FF Brand was so strong that they just assumed that people would play the game, regardless of its intrinsic quality.

The simple truth is that WoW was revolutionary, and many of its innovations have become standard in the genre for a reason. Just because there are certain features that the games share, doesn’t mean that one is a “copy” of the other. It’s just evolution.

I’m reminded of something Dave Chappelle said on Inside the Actor’s Studio: “They say that the mark of greatness is that everything that came before you is obsolete, and everything that comes after you bares your mark.”

Make anything easier than what came before it = becomes standard. Revolutionary even.

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Originally Posted by Vandark

Go play WoW if you want that experience.....

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Many of us like this experience. Please stop trying to change the game we love into something we don't want.

Vandark thanks for fighting the good fight but they are right. They are the majority and even though they are killing the gaming industry and making everything into an iPhone quality game it won't change a thing. Less thought, less effort, and less challenge. The industry doesn't want to put out anything that isn't a guaranteed blockbuster so they milk sequels like halo and assassins creed. Reusing ideas that have worked in the past to the point that its boring. The glory days of gaming are over. Money talks and for some reason the majority want this type of game, people who don't just have to deal with it. It's why I still own a ps2.

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Originally Posted by Vandark

If it doesn’t play like Final Fantasy I’m sorry but that is no longer a complete Final Fantasy experience.

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The only reason you're saying that this doesn't play like a FF is because it doesn't use the same system that FFXI had.

The game sure feels like playing a FF to me. Getting to use abilities a lot more often than in FFXI just makes the game more fun to me, not less FF.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

The only reason you're saying that this doesn't play like a FF is because it doesn't use the same system that FFXI had.

The game sure feels like playing a FF to me. Getting to use abilities a lot more often than in FFXI just makes the game more fun to me, not less FF.

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lol more abilities than FFXI, perhaps on melle classes but the magic classes in ARR are a flat out joke. Also in the old FF14 you could use way more skills than now, so no I'm not impressed.
I find strategizing alot more appealing than spam so I'm afrade your wrong, there are many reasons why I don't think ARR plays at all like an Final Fantasy game.

If the world didn't look like Final Fantasy it would be the same as all those other wow rip offs there is no difference to me.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Many of us like this experience. Please stop trying to change the game we love into something we don't want.

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Don't be a hipocrit, the game has already changed from something I love and I am not asking the game be changed simply that they bring back some old content not as a replacement for current content but as an alternative way of progressing in the game.

FFXI had a large range of options for end game progression it wasn't the same direction for everyone, it would make the world more interesting too because not everyone would be running around with the exact same end game equipment.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Many of us like this experience. Please stop trying to change the game we love into something we don't want.

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Thanks for changing what we loved in 1.23 that was great.

Guys and gals if you want FF11 so much go play 11 its still going strong. FF11 was my 1st MMO. I started playing a little after COP came out and i played up until FF14 1.0 was released. Once i saw 1.0 was garbage i played other titles like rift, Swtor, Dcuo, and a few others. Once I started playing these modern MMO's ie. "rift" I came to really understand how terrible 11 was. I never played a game so grindy. You couldn't even pug the good content best EG content they had puggable was Nyzul investigation. Players had to join a LS just to get anything done. Which led to many LS becoming elitest. The relic/empyr/mythic qst that were almost impossible to complete w/o an army and the average player "Never "saw. Then you had the elitist who created loot councils whom made players slob their epeens just for some gear. Don't forget the horrible community Jp players and americans hated one another. Don't forget selling gil was lucrative to everyone not just for rmt. Ls would sell gold or buy gold to fund relics ect the game was a joke. Abyssea came out with more mega grind and i quit. I'd like to see certain aspects like campaign battle and Ksnm ect.. seal instances but if they adopt all that other super grind crap then i'm gone.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

Many of us like this experience. Please stop trying to change the game we love into something we don't want.

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Yeah that's like saying I love housing prices please stop trying to change the game we love into something we don't want.

Anyone can give their opinions on how they want things changed, ultimately it's on the devs to decide. So that line just sounds corny.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

Guys and gals if you want FF11 so much go play 11 its still going strong. .

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But that's not what we want. We wanted something new that followed in 11's footsteps yet improved on its flaws. That is usually what sequels do. Or at least attempt to do

No one is asking for a carbon copy of Final Fantasy 11. Not to mention Final Fantasy 11 has changed dramatically over the years and barely resembles the game it was anyway. So the go play Final Fantasy 11 rebuttal is useless and doesn't understand what this debate is all about.

What we wanted was an alternative to WoW that improved on the foundation laid by Final Fantasy 11. And that is usually the entire point of a sequel. So I don't think that was an unreasonable thing to expect.

What we did not want was yet another WoW wannabe. There is enough of those already. The market is saturated with WoW imitators.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Yeah that's like saying I love housing prices please stop trying to change the game we love into something we don't want.

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That's not really what it was.

The problem is that lately and under the excuse of "we want to see the game get better" the forum is filled with "oh you like this WoW clone? you like babby's first MMO? the game is too hard for you? You can't dodge? Poor baby can't dodge." Basically anyone who thinks the game is fine as it is (while still thinking it needs to improve) is antagonized.

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Originally Posted by Mega_Man_U

Basically anyone who thinks the game is fine as it is (while still thinking it needs to improve) is antagonized.

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It goes both ways dude. "You don't like it go play "X" game!" "You think titan is too hard? You suck get better skillz" I actually find the players that like the game as is being more rude than the ones that want to see certain things implemented.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Yeah that's like saying I love housing prices please stop trying to change the game we love into something we don't want.

Anyone can give their opinions on how they want things changed, ultimately it's on the devs to decide. So that line just sounds corny.

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Indeed. It is for the devs to decide. They've decided and designed ff14 to be what it is yet a small group of people keep crying and begging for it to be something else.

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Originally Posted by Dale

But that's not what we want. We wanted something new that followed in 11's footsteps yet improved on its flaws. That is usually what sequels do. Or at least attempt to do

No one is asking for a carbon copy of Final Fantasy 11. Not to mention Final Fantasy 11 has changed dramatically over the years and barely resembles the game it was anyway. So the go play Final Fantasy 11 rebuttal is useless and doesn't understand what this debate is all about.

What we wanted was an alternative to WoW that improved on the foundation laid by Final Fantasy 11. And that is usually the entire point of a sequel. So I don't think that was an unreasonable thing to expect.

What we did not want was yet another WoW wannabe. There is enough of those already. The market is already saturated with WoW imitators.

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I said it before and I'll say it again. There's a reason FF11 changed from what it was to what it currently is. Also as much as you don't like it this "sequel" did follow in 11's footsteps, improved on it's flaws, etc. It followed "current" Ff11's footsteps and the direction it was headed while improving on it. You said it yourself FF11 isn't what it used to be and it's not going back. They're also not going to go back and make an 'old school' mmo design in the modern era. Elderscrolls is doing that and is being blasted for it everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

Indeed. It is for the devs to decide. They've decided and designed ff14 to be what it is yet a small group of people keep crying and begging for it to be something else.

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I don't see anyone crying and begging in this thread.

Expressing opinions is not the same as crying and begging.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I don't see anyone crying and begging in this thread.

Expressing opinions is not the same as crying and begging.

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You weren't paying attention earlier in the thread have you? You missed all the posts where people are downright insulting those who are happy with what the game currently is? Or downright asking the devs and pleading with them to add FF11 features and change it's current model?

You're right expressing opinions isn't crying but saying over and over "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT" is. If your kid say "I really want this toy I've been good and I think I should have it." you wouldn't call that crying would you? Of course not. However, if you told him no and he goes "But I really want it I think I should have it" and he was told no again and it was followed up with "But I should have it it's unfair that I don't!" it's going to start to look a lot like whining at this point.

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Originally Posted by Dale

.But that's not what we want. We wanted something new that followed in 11's footsteps yet improved on its flaws. That is usually what sequels do. Or at least attempt to do

No one is asking for a carbon copy of Final Fantasy 11. Not to mention Final Fantasy 11 has changed dramatically over the years and barely resembles the game it was anyway. So the go play Final Fantasy 11 rebuttal is useless and doesn't understand what this debate is all about.

What we wanted was an alternative to WoW that improved on the foundation laid by Final Fantasy 11. And that is usually the entire point of a sequel. So I don't think that was an unreasonable thing to expect.

What we did not want was yet another WoW wannabe. There is enough of those already. The market is saturated with WoW imitators

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FF14 is not a sequel to 11 in any way shape or form if that what your looking for your probably going to have to wait for them to make one. yoshi even said they want to use some elements from 11 but it is in no way a sequel.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

They're also not going to go back and make an 'old school' mmo design in the modern era..

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No you are either misrepresenting or not understanding what I said.

Yes, Final Fantasy 11 has changed over the years. But it never sought to become an imitation of WoW like Final Fantasy 14 has. So you can't compare them in that sense.

Many of the changes in Final Fantasy 11 have been good in my opinion. Some of them not so good (such as being able to afk in Abyssea and get to max level in a day). But Final Fantasy 11 never tried to morph into WoW the way 14 has done.

And WoW is an old game. So this argument of yours that copying an old game is somehow giving us something new makes no sense to me. If anything, Final Fantasy 14 is bringing us old MMO design. And I'll never understand why you and others think coping WoW is somehow giving us something new and up to date in terms of MMO design.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

You're right expressing opinions isn't crying but saying over and over "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT" is.

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Can you show me this post where someone in this thread was crying "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT" over and over? Because I haven't seen it.

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Originally Posted by Dale

And WoW is an oldIf anything, Final Fantasy 14 is bringing us old MMO design. And I'll never understand why you and others think coping WoW is somehow giving us something new and up to date in terms of MMO design.

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WoW's design has become more refined over the years and there's a reason this design is being "Imitated" by everyone. It's the design that works it's the "modern mmorpg." Unless you can come up with a better system? Because so far no one else has. Again, there's a reason FF11 changed. There's a reason leveling was so quick in abyssea. That was the point of my post before. MMO gamers want a casual friendly game where the leveling process is smooth and quick so they can get right into the end game content. "WoW's" game design as you put it is geared towards exactly that. I used to play Everquest back in the day and FF11. If I had to go back to it's leveling style I wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Can you show me this post where someone in this thread was crying "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT" over and over? Because I haven't seen it.

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Far too many to account for. Check all the posters who have made 10-15 posts in here re-stating their opinion and arguing against FF14's current design. Re-stating your opinion over and over when you're told no is the very definition of whining.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

FF14 is not a sequel to 11 in any way shape or form if that what your looking for your probably going to have to wait for them to make one. yoshi even said they want to use some elements from 11 but it is in no way a sequel.

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I'm aware of that. It was a sequel to World of Warcraft. That is why many of us are disappointed with the game. We were hoping for a new and improved version of Final Fantasy 11. But instead we got WoW with better graphics.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

WoW's design has become more refined over the years and there's a reason this design is being "Imitated" by everyone. It's the design that works it's the "modern mmorpg."

Far too many to account for. Check all the posters who have made 10-15 posts in here re-stating their opinion and arguing against FF14's current design. Re-stating your opinion over and over when you're told no is the very definition of whining.

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If there are so many you could show me at least one. And re-stating your opinion is not the same as whining if it's done in a reasonable manner.

And I don't share your belief that WoW somehow has the perfect design all other games should copy else they can't be considered modern (which is essentially what your argument boils down to). Frankly I find that game boring, and don't understand what the big deal is with it.

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Originally Posted by Dale

No you are either misrepresenting or not understanding what I said.

Yes, Final Fantasy 11 has changed over the years. But it never sought to become an imitation of WoW like Final Fantasy 14 has. So you can't compare them in that sense.

Many of the changes in Final Fantasy 11 have been good in my opinion. Some of them not so good (such as being able to afk in Abyssea and get to max level in a day). But Final Fantasy 11 never tried to morph into WoW the way 14 has done.

And WoW is an old game. So this argument of yours that copying an old game is somehow giving us something new makes no sense to me. If anything, Final Fantasy 14 is bringing us old MMO design. And I'll never understand why you and others think coping WoW is somehow giving us something new and up to date in terms of MMO design.

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FF14 is nothing like wow. Thats like saying just because wow was 1st to use the trinity and has token/raid system that every other game that comes out is a wow clone lol. Modern MMO designers all take from one another when designing MMO's. Most all modern MMO's use the same foundation(A story line,trinity, crafting, instanced dungeons and endgame with a token system) I doubt this will change going forward because thats what modern mmo players like as a whole. According to your way of thinking all MMo that come after wow are and will be clones based on a basic blue print that most mmo's use.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

Indeed. It is for the devs to decide. They've decided and designed ff14 to be what it is yet a small group of people keep crying and begging for it to be something else.

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I don't see it as crying anymore than anything else on the forums such as housing price, CT looting, etc. If you don't like it simply ignore it since it's just a small group anyways.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

FF14 is nothing like wow..

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Yes it is...

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Originally Posted by Dale

Yes it is...

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No U no U no U...seriously. Bro If your going to call FF14 a wow clone then call every new/modern mmo released a wow clone.

This thread should be locked now, same people arguing amongst themselves

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Originally Posted by Dale

I'm aware of that. It was a sequel to World of Warcraft. That is why many of us are disappointed with the game. We were hoping for a new and improved version of Final Fantasy 11. But instead we got WoW with better graphics.

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Alright examples coming up.

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Originally Posted by Dale

But that's not what we want. We wanted something new that followed in 11's footsteps yet improved on its flaws. That is usually what sequels do. Or at least attempt to do What we did not want was yet another WoW wannabe.

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Originally Posted by Dale

And I would have preferred something more unique and Final Fantasy 11-oriented (but improved upon) rather another WoW clone.

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Originally Posted by Dale

14 would have been very wise to follow in its footsteps and improve upon it, rather abandoning it completely and trying to clone WoW. So I agree with the OP.

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"We wanted we wanted we wanted." No different than I want anyway. Look, back to the kid example. If you didn't get the kid the toy he/she wanted and they kept saying "But I wanted." "I should have had because I wanted. But I really wanted.." you wouldn't see it as whining?

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Originally Posted by Doo

I don't see it as crying anymore than anything else on the forums such as housing price, CT looting, etc. If you don't like it simply ignore it since it's just a small group anyways.

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And those are even if it's valid or not to cry over. I'm guilty over it to over the housing prices. Though, I feel my whining was warranted but it WAS whining. See? I admitted I myself have done it.

All I want is an MMO with high speed combat like Blade and Soul, combined with Dragons Dogma to offer monster climbing and dodging at the cost of stamina, while offering a robust crafting and gathering system... With Final Fantasy lore and races like Lala. All the while offering plenty of content for both sides of the game like large scale fates that involve taking out colossal monsters by climbing and striking at weak points while they try to swing you off, huge PvP faction wars on behalf of grand and free companies in similar fashions to what Fantasy Earth Zero offered (RIP ;_; ), card and pub game minigames to bet and earn coin, fishing, cook off and gathering challenges to test skill...
And to top it all off, set to a similar theme of FFXII.

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Originally Posted by Whiz

No U no U no U...seriously. Bro If your going to call FF14 a wow clone then call every new/modern mmo released a wow clone.

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If you can't recognize that this game has basically copied and pasted WoW then I don't know what else to tell you. And that is why I kept my previous remarks so brief. Because I see no point in debating something so painfully obvious. It's basically WoW with a face lift.

And like I told that other poster, I don't understand why you think copying an old game is giving us something new and modern. But you are entitled to your opinion, even if it makes no sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Reslin

Alright examples coming up.
"We wanted we wanted we wanted." No different than I want anyway. Look, back to the kid example. If you didn't get the kid the toy he/she wanted and they kept saying "But I wanted." "I should have had because I wanted. But I really wanted.." you wouldn't see it as whining?

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I read your examples and no where in any of my postings did I see myself crying "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT" like you claimed...

All of my posts looked perfectly reasonable to me... and if you think those are examples of whining and begging then I think it's safe to say you have never been around people who actually do whine about something.

And when I am speaking with many different people about the same subject of course you are going to find repetitive posts. That isn't whining.

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Originally Posted by Dale

And like I told that other poster, I don't understand why you think copying an old game is giving us something new and modern. But you are entitled to your opinion, even if it makes no sense to me.

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Here's an analogy I have over this debate. WoW was the first car and it made cars very popular. Older mmo design such as EQ and FF11 was a carriage driven by horses. No matter how much you improve on FF11 or Everquest's design it will still be a horse carriage which barely anyone rides anymore but there are a few people out there who still ride horses and horse carriages. Those are the people who still play those kind of games. Right now most people are driving cars and looking for updated car models.

This also means that EvE is air transportation. ;)

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Originally Posted by Dale

In theory yes, if they were to make Final Fantasy 14 more like 11 it would likely take even more subscriptions from the game than it already is. But as I said, it's already taking subscriptions from the game now. So the damage to 11 is being done regardless, and we are just debating to what degree.

But like I said in an earlier post, I would have preferred Final Fantasy 14 to be designed as a true sequel to predecessor. A game that would ultimately replace Final Fantasy 11 entirely and give players who want an alternative to WoW somewhere else to go that isn't over a decade old. And to touch on your earlier comments - that would also be the best way to ensure that they are not competing with themselves for subscriptions.

But that didn't happen and instead SE opted to copy WoW. And that is what has players like me disgruntled. Because we were hoping for an alternative to WoW that at least resembled 11 in terms of design and structure.

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Fair enough, I think we have worked out what each of us meant. Thats all I wanted. I agree, damage has been done but it was inevitable. I think something you are not really aware of is that each numbered installment of the Final Fantasy franchise plays differently. That is a fundamental feature of the franchise along with each installment being in its own unique world. The only way you would have gotten what you are asking for in a similar experience to FFXI that was built on its strengths and ironed out weaknesses would be if there was a FFXI-2. Its the only time that a FF game has used the same world and built upon its preceding systems.

It does not sound like you are a big FF fan and more of an MMO fan, so i understand why you may have these expectations. In my opinion, as a fan of the FF franchise, this is a great installment in the series and live up to all the expectation I have for such a game, moreso than FFXI did. I played both and I much prefer ARR to FFXI from a FF fan perspective. I dont have much MMO background but I see so many people talking about all their expertise and expectation on the MMO genre but they all see to forget the the second half of the acronym; RPG. I really like that there is a much heavier focus on the RPG elements, story, classic jobs, classic experiences (the nods to older FF games), and the less competitive atmosphere this game has.

There were things I did like about FFXI and I have no problems seeing some things make an appearance in this FF, but overall, i'm glad its not a sequel to FFXI in how it plays. If it was then I doubt it would have gained much more of a following than their first MMO did, and that would have been sad.