Yoshida-san: Please Give Us a BETTER System for Relics and Future 2.0 Challenges!

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Originally Posted by Dragon

Hardly.

Not everyone opposed to the current relic system is 'casual'.

On the other hand, I was being rhetorical anyways.

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This ^ I'm far from casual i'm just tired of playing Craps and constantly getting Snake eyes.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Shitty players shouldn't be able to access everything because they're on alot and good players shouldn't be barred from said content because they don't play enough. Time spent online shouldn't be a deciding factor, within reason, say 2~3hrs should be enough time to go in and do anything once. Though what we ended up with was a little obnoxious.

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Well you should've read my previous posts in this thread - I don't really like the current relic system and the current RNG system (which more than anything does support the casual base, since all you need is a bit of luck and you're done with it - no long-term effort whatsoever), and I'm not a casual player by far. (Though that doesn't mean I'm not going to participate in it; for the moment I'm just unsure whether I'll stick around beyond 2.0 and bothering with it would just be a huge waste of time should I decide to leave after 2.0.)

For the record, Dynamis was only 3hrs long and anyone that took more than 30 mins to get ready for it should've been booted as it only took a terrible linkshell longer than 30 mins to get ready for Dynamis.

My point though was that if casual players can get their cake, why can't hardcore players get their own cake? Casual players are getting everything they want, but somehow it's totally evil to just give a little something to the hardcore playerbase? (Which again, I'm not referring to the relic system currently in FFXIV, but something along the lines of Dynamis.)

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Originally Posted by Firon

This ^ I'm far from casual i'm just tired of playing Craps and constantly getting Snake eyes.

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Exactly.

I'm neither casual nor hardcore, but I am much closer to being hardcore than casual; I just am.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

2 of this statement is very contradictionary, one you suggest some content shouldnt be accessible to most players but doesnt lock them away, 3hour content does lock people away that doesnt have that playtime.

2-3hrs is long and you still need time to reform group and such, it will lock people that doesnt have playtime away.

Currently all content is casual friendly and should remain that way, sure currently RNG system does frustates people, they should probably tokenize alot of things, but again how do you keep some things prestige? when you tokenize everything, all become predictable on how long it takes to achieve? how do you maintain something to be a rare? Nobody has come up with solution to this.

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Perhaps I said that poorly. To restate it, hopefully more clearly though.

I don't think that content, regardless of time inside, should be restricted to players that have alot of time to play. It should never be a matter of how many hours a day you play. It should be based on whether you are skilled enough to gain access(pre-req quests) and to clear it. If 2~3hrs is more than you have everyday that you play so there's never a chance for you to do something that takes 2 hours I don't think your likely to be looking for these type of items anyway. Alot of spammable 15min content with entry reqs that can be completed by a naked level 50 is a little too accessible.

I think, being a player with less time during the week(usually 2~3 hrs) that wouldn't have time to form a PuG and go do something like this, I can say pretty fairly that I can still toss in a couple 3+ hour runs on my weekends, when you toss in that one of my days off is during the typical school/work week, I also all but lose the support of my LS until normal times so PuGs are what I have to do or solo farm/gather/craft for alot of my day. Only a couple people in my LS are online at off peak times on a regular basis. Still I'm not kept out based on time, I can enter if I can gain access(pre-req quests?), just not as often. I am however going to need alot more RL time to complete w/e the thing is due to getting less chances per day/week.

The rarity of an object based on luck just means that if the RNG strings a series of wins then alot of ppl have, if not then not many have. Skill being the determing factor means that if your good enough to clear the content you have, everyone can get it but some won't, or won't for a long time. Add to that a large number of items to collect from that content and between the difficulty and the time needed it will remain something that not many go after. Few people went after full relics/mythics in XI, the content was very clearable, but getting through it enough times and collecting enough of everything turned away many many people that didn't want to spend thier play time on that. Making those very rare in spite of everyone being able to get them if they put in the time.

Needing 100 of each primal totem(@100% totem/win/person ala Garuda) wouldn't be terrible. You've the choice of saving for that relic or getting the primal weapons off the top. If you have the tenacity to do each primal 100+ times with only the one reward after all of the fights great, many will not go 300 wins(between the 3 primals) because it will just take too long and the primal weapon is good enough for them.

Random is not the way to make a thing rare, it's a way to make a thing maybe rare, maybe not rare. The current system makes a thing frustrating as hell for one but not so bad for another, maybe. I really don't think anyone can say it is good.

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Originally Posted by Dragon

Well you should've read my previous posts in this thread - I don't really like the current relic system and the current RNG system (which more than anything does support the casual base, since all you need is a bit of luck and you're done with it - no long-term effort whatsoever), and I'm not a casual player by far. (Though that doesn't mean I'm not going to participate in it; for the moment I'm just unsure whether I'll stick around beyond 2.0 and bothering with it would just be a huge waste of time should I decide to leave after 2.0.)

For the record, Dynamis was only 3hrs long and anyone that took more than 30 mins to get ready for it should've been booted as it only took a terrible linkshell longer than 30 mins to get ready for Dynamis.

My point though was that if casual players can get their cake, why can't hardcore players get their own cake? Casual players are getting everything they want, but somehow it's totally evil to just give a little something to the hardcore playerbase? (Which again, I'm not referring to the relic system currently in FFXIV, but something along the lines of Dynamis.)

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You and I, and many many others have been saying the same thing, in different wrappers.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post725564

I didn't say Dyna was more than 3 hours, the 300 mins. was about something suggested prior to there about 180~300 min. content. I agree if someone isn't ready and otw in relatively close to the scheduled start time fuck em. That's the point of a schedule, be prompt you knew it was coming. Of course in this if your 8th is late your a bit fucked, not the best system, better now with 4~8 for all dungeons, but w/e. The idea of a shell that took an hour to get ready was again a matter of illustration, though from time to time shit happened that's what the hourglass mule was there for.

I also won't label myself as hardcore or casual, I don't believe time is the real decider in that, and when I was younger it wasn't the time you put in, it was how good you were and whether you were always trying to get better. If my time spent learning/researching and trying to always improve my skill isn't sufficient because I don't actually play 60+ hours a week then w/e, I read/post here and such while I'm on breaks at work and/or between classes when I've nothing more important going on, yet my playtime would be listed by many as casual. That's really a whole different discussion though.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

You and I, and many many others have been saying the same thing, in different wrappers.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post725564

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No problem, I know you're against it. It's just you came off like as if I supported it. ^.^

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I didn't say Dyna was more than 3 hours, the 300 mins. was about something suggested prior to there about 180~300 min. content.

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Oh I understand, but I know Shayla and you gotta take what she says with a grain of salt (she's also just a kid, too). All she wants is content and people to do that content with.

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Originally Posted by Nero

Thats naive to think people would do Stuff for free. ( Of course some do, but most dont ).

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I was in an LS that worked toward one at a time, we did not get payed for each run, we did get choice of all drops but currency.

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Run was 1.000.000 7 Years ago and if i would have sell Currency to get the Fee back i was in need to sell 200 ( since some were 5k ), which was a decent amount you could have gotten out of 1 run. So the whole run would have been a waste since i got nothing out of it.

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I remember 500k, but 7 years ago was before I started running dyna, or maybe I'm remember the cost of something else?

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I dont think you ever worked on a Relic, since that Math-Example is an naive assessment of the situation like mentioned above and said before. Total Cost if you buy all currency was 120.000.000, no matter if you could have sell some of the Currency to pay the Entry-Fee, or just bought Currency without sponsoring. In the end you would have to do more runs to get the Currency back you sold in the early Progress, to the the total amount you need. So you could have save the Time and not sell any of them.. but no matter how you turn it, it either has costs more time or more gil. And again.. it is really naive to think that everyone was able to have a Linkshell which will run Dynamis all the Time just for 1 guy. I knew Linkshells which did it once a week, once a month, 2 times a week but currency were free lot and so on... and so on.

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I said post cost ~100 currency a run, yes if you were free lotting everything then well I'm sorry it would have taken a long time and/or a ton of gil. Post abyssea and post dyna reforms, as I mentioned somewhere else, people solo all but the final stage NMs, and of course you can go once a day for free. It's that system that's in place now that I believe would be a far better choice, but even old brutal years long dyna, which believe it or not I did go to, we did give sponsor currency for the glass, and we did work on 1 persons at a time, we did not go with more than a single alliance either. The shell I was in before that did the whole even split of the glass cost, and split currency after the run so everyone got equal amounts then buy/sell/trade amongst yourselves. I never did dyna with a dyna shell that only went once a month. Even social shells that ran Dyna went at least on saturdays/sundays every week. Usually not to build relics so much as to go get clears and lot drops on armor and what have you. If some of my numbers are off, or you were getting 5k/currency, or w/e try to keep in mind that not every server was the same pricing, most of the currency I sold would go from 8k~15k a piece, calling that on avg. 10k and 50/run seemed about right to me, again I don't remember 1mil, I seem to remember 500k.
Should a player still possess an unused Timeless Hourglass, the Goblin NPCs will buy them back from you for a full refund of the purchase price (500,000 gil)(from http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Dynamis) So I know that I'm not losing my mind there.

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But here again back to the Topic

The Current Progress in FFXIV CAN obviously be done in 1 Week and not everyone got their Seals before the Patch. I mentioned examples where people started along with the Patch.

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I didn't say everyone did, we can keep arguing what work out to be the same point in the end or not. Dyna had measurable progression that rewarded actual time spent and skill. Rather than luck.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

I remember 500k, but 7 years ago was before I started running dyna, or maybe I'm remember the cost of something else?

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It may have changed around/after abyssea (August 2010), but until then it did cost a million gil to get into. :)

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I didn't say everyone did, we can keep arguing what work out to be the same point in the end or not. Dyna had measurable progression that rewarded actual time spent and skill. Rather than luck.

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Yup, exactly. Call me crazy, but I also usually had fun with Dynamis anyways.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

I didn't say everyone did, we can keep arguing what work out to be the same point in the end or not. Dyna had measurable progression that rewarded actual time spent and skill. Rather than luck.

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Of course we could.. the Maindifference between Dynamis and Hamlet is that you had tons of Mobs which could drop the Currency compared to Hamlet where you get 1 Chest. ( i guess i read that somewhere above ). Maybe thats why it looks way worse than Dyna was... but is it really? Dyna was twice a week.. Hamlet you can spam over and over again.

Personally i dont mind spaming Hamlet, spaming CC/AV, or breaking even more Class-Weapons, but thats just me.

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Should a player still possess an unused Timeless Hourglass, the Goblin NPCs will buy them back from you for a full refund of the purchase price (500,000 gil)(from http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Dynamis) So I know that I'm not losing my mind there.

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It was change not long ago, like the Dragon said. It was changed somewhere at Abyssea Release Date.. im not sure exactly about the Date tho.

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Originally Posted by Dragon

No problem, I know you're against it. It's just you came off like as if I supported it. ^.^



Oh I understand, but I know Shayla and you gotta take what she says with a grain of salt (she's also just a kid, too). All she wants is content and people to do that content with.

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I just want content that doesn't deter people by it's very nature(in this case RNG), what we have now leads me to begging/buying people to go with me. They should want to join these things just like even those that weren't building relics/mythics still wanted to go to dyna/nyzul.

I think that most of us really are after the same things. Sorry if I made it sound otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

This is how I'm feeling now after doing a few Hamlets and going 3/4 seals with a nice group and reading about the drop rate on THAT stage of the quest. That's probably the part that definitely needs to let you feel some progress. While it might cheapen the effort people have put in so far to make the drop rate 100% and just increase how much mythril you need, I personally would not have any issues with it as the current drop rate is apparently abysmal and I couldn't imagine trying to do it for a whole group of people.

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Hi Estellios,

But you see, that's just it: You got the Lucky Dice Roll and got 3 Seals in 4 Tries. Congrats (seriously) and I'm happy for you. :)

But it's just luck.

I posted my results last weekend (3 full days & losing sleep) going 0/25 on Primal Seals. ZERO.

There's a JP Player I've seen at every Hamlet Defense I go to and we ended up in the same PUG last Sunday. I asked them how their Seal collecting was going: 1 Primal Seal for about ~1.5 WEEKS worth of grinding (whenever it was in Stage 2).

I have a JP friend who runs their own JP LS to do content. As the LS Leader (he lets everyone keep their own drops), he got ZERO Seals last weekend running Hamlet Defense non-stop. And I know another JP friend who got all 9 Seals the week before already (spending far less time) and is doing AV/CC non-stop.

How is this fine or OK?

It's great for those that got the Lucky Dice Roll. For everyone else, sorry, it's *not* "OK" or "fine."

And hearing Sniper and others talk about AV/CC's Relic Item Drop Rate sounds even more depressing.

Ultimately, if Yoshida-san wants to rely on *some* Luck / RNG, that's his choice and I think it's ~Ok if used sparingly. But too many steps of this Relic Weapon Quest rely on the Random Number Generator (most of it).

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

I just want content that doesn't deter people by it's very nature(in this case RNG), what we have now leads me to begging/buying people to go with me. They should want to join these things just like even those that weren't building relics/mythics still wanted to go to dyna/nyzul.

I think that most of us really are after the same things. Sorry if I made it sound otherwise.

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Just my opinion, can't speak for everyone, but RNG is a bigger deterrence from a game than grinding all the time for tokens.

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Originally Posted by Nero

Of course we could.. the Maindifference between Dynamis and Hamlet is that you had tons of Mobs which could drop the Currency compared to Hamlet where you get 1 Chest. ( i guess i read that somewhere above ). Maybe thats why it looks way worse than Dyna was... but is it really? Dyna was twice a week.. Hamlet you can spam over and over again.

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So tons of mobs in a single ~3 hour span where you know you'll walk away with something(typically 150+ currency and some armor/weapons), or 3 hours to get 1 chance per instance to get 1 drop per group. Yeah Dyna was 1x every 3 days I don't want to see reentries that high, but the system as it is imo of course simply sucks and I would prefer Dyna ~07 to it.

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Personally i dont mind spaming Hamlet, spaming CC/AV, or breaking even more Class-Weapons, but thats just me.

It was change not long ago, like the Dragon said. It was changed somewhere at Abyssea Release Date.. im not sure exactly about the Date tho.

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It was a year and change ago, I quit shortly after, that it became free and a 24hour reentry, not to mention soloable for currency farming. I said that already, it was 500k for a fairly long time, at least a few years as I can't remember when it was 1mil and started playing in mid04, which is why they allowed the refund when it became free.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

I just want content that doesn't deter people by it's very nature(in this case RNG), what we have now leads me to begging/buying people to go with me. They should want to join these things just like even those that weren't building relics/mythics still wanted to go to dyna/nyzul.

I think that most of us really are after the same things. Sorry if I made it sound otherwise.

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I can agree to a point, as I just think more content in general would be nice, but I just don't like the hypocrisy going on, that "all content is equal, just some more than others." Ergo, people advocating for a particular content on the idea of having more choices/options, but won't support something because they may necessarily not be able to access it.

IMO, it'd be nice to have a bit of everything including long dungeons that take hours to complete, and hey for what it's worth, they could add a progress saver of sorts like Nyzul Isle had for those without the time to sit around all day.

People are still complaining about seal drop rate??

4 days, ~50-55 runs, got us about 34 seals.

67-68k points on about 80% of our runs.

Drop rate is fine.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

It was a year and change ago, I quit shortly after, that it became free and a 24hour reentry, not to mention soloable for currency farming. I said that already, it was 500k for a fairly long time, at least a few years as I can't remember when it was 1mil and started playing in mid04, which is why they allowed the refund when it became free.

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http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...52/detail.html

There you go.. it was 1 Mil until August of 2008. Just wanted to clarify that, since i also wasnt sure but was sure that it was 1 mil for a long Time.

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Originally Posted by Nero

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...52/detail.html

There you go.. it was 1 Mil until August of 2008. Just wanted to clarify that, since i also wasnt sure but was sure that it was 1 mil for a long Time.

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I thought it was 1 mill until Abyssea... wow, I can't believe I forgot. .-.

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Originally Posted by Nero

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...52/detail.html

There you go.. it was 1 Mil until August(Edit:April) of 2008. Just wanted to clarify that, since i also wasnt sure but was sure that it was 1 mil for a long Time.

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MMk it was 500k for 3 years before Abyssea, so everyone was right. I just overestimated by maybe a ~year, it was 500k for awhile long enough for me to have erased the memories of 1mil.

Wasn't the point still that it was attainable and in measurable amounts as opposed to a luck based system w/ what @most 8 chests in hamlet that drop items that can't be passed/traded/sold, a luck based synth, a luck based double meld, a luck based mat drop same 8 chests that drop but can't be passed traded or sold.

Yes dyna had RNG, it also placed 500(no I've never counted) mobs for you to attempt that RNG on and each could drop 0~3 singles and 0~1 100(likely fuck no but it did happen). So in the end you could pretty safely say that, assuming you were in a shell that did build weapons for each person in turn and sold only what was needed for lamps. You could say that each run you gained, 50/run @1mil/lamp, and 100/run @500k/lamp. So the math I put out there earlier, aside from my not remembering a 1mil point is right for the 2~3 years prior to dyna reforms. ~100/run x 100 runs with no currency bought. It's 50 weeks, < 1 year. I can also say I don't know anyone that did a straight farm for them until after the reform that made entry free and everyday for, if you knew how, ~300/day in lowman and even solo.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

MMk it was 500k for 3 years before Abyssea, so everyone was right. I just overestimated by maybe a ~year, it was 500k for awhile long enough for me to have erased the memories of 1mil.

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Nah, I was clearly wrong. ^.^;;

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Wasn't the point still that it was attainable and in measurable amounts as opposed to a luck based system w/ what @most 8 chests in hamlet that drop items that can't be passed/traded/sold, a luck based synth, a luck based double meld, a luck based mat drop same 8 chests that drop but can't be passed traded or sold.

Yes dyna had RNG, it also placed 500(no I've never counted) mobs for you to attempt that RNG on and each could drop 0~3 singles and 0~1 100(likely fuck no but it did happen). So in the end you could pretty safely say that, assuming you were in a shell that did build weapons for each person in turn and sold only what was needed for lamps. You could say that each run you gained, 50/run @1mil/lamp, and 100/run @500k/lamp. So the math I put out there earlier, aside from my not remembering a 1mil point is right for the 2~3 years prior to dyna reforms. ~100/run x 100 runs with no currency bought. It's 50 weeks, < 1 year. I can also say I don't know anyone that did a straight farm for them until after the reform that made entry free and everyday for, if you knew how, ~300/day in lowman and even solo.

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Yup, exactly!

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

I remember 500k,

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Used to be 1 mill.

Not like that mattered though there were only so many Dynamis shells on the server and you couldn't just get up and enter because the zones were allowed only one party at a time.

Randomly entering dynamis was a good way to get your group blacklisted on the entire server for screwing up larger shells dynamis scheduels. Hell you would be lucky to get enough currency to make a decent profit especially if you were getting the lower currency on your server. (Odin was all about byne bills being worthless) yet you could hardly buy them because people were hording their cash even if they would never get the relic they were holding on to it for dear life.

It's not as simple as you make it sounds, it's part of the reason only a litteral handfull of people ever had relic weapons (Obviously until they made it soloable in Abysea lol)

Then you did have to fight the RNG when you got to your attestations, wich in itself was hard enough to convince even your sponsored shell to do, attestations runs were much less profitable and much harder. You could always tells them to screw themselves and you would find another shell....and then the 100's of others waiting to sponsor a shell would take over for you and you would become one of those 100's waiting for a shell to sponsor again.

Relic Weapons weren't just currency, they had a ton of other things that limited the average player from getting them. It's a far from perfect system and needs to stop being used as a comparable system for FFXIV relics. While the current Relic system is a bit bunk in areas at least everyone gets a fair chance instead of having to be the lucky (and rediculously rich) guy sponsor a shell.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

MMk it was 500k for 3 years before Abyssea, so everyone was right. I just overestimated by maybe a ~year, it was 500k for awhile long enough for me to have erased the memories of 1mil.

Wasn't the point still that it was attainable and in measurable amounts as opposed to a luck based system w/ what @most 8 chests in hamlet that drop items that can't be passed/traded/sold, a luck based synth, a luck based double meld, a luck based mat drop same 8 chests that drop but can't be passed traded or sold.

Yes dyna had RNG, it also placed 500(no I've never counted) mobs for you to attempt that RNG on and each could drop 0~3 singles and 0~1 100(likely fuck no but it did happen). So in the end you could pretty safely say that, assuming you were in a shell that did build weapons for each person in turn and sold only what was needed for lamps. You could say that each run you gained, 50/run @1mil/lamp, and 100/run @500k/lamp. So the math I put out there earlier, aside from my not remembering a 1mil point is right for the 2~3 years prior to dyna reforms. ~100/run x 100 runs with no currency bought. It's 50 weeks, < 1 year. I can also say I don't know anyone that did a straight farm for them until after the reform that made entry free and everyday for, if you knew how, ~300/day in lowman and even solo.

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but essentialy, if you want to use dynamis as an example, you really do have to use the "back then" stats of it and not the "now" version of it because the now version of it is the way it is because everything there is so irrelevant

so 1mil per entry is still what we look at
and doing it every 3 days is still what we have to look at unfortunately if you even want to come close to comparing it

every aspect of it from that point of view makes it take alot longer in almost every single aspect to complete then the hamlet end of things does now, hell even every other aspect of it will still probly take tons longer in comparison to the whole process now.

the fact that people who are grinding it a ton are at such a late stage in the quest says alot since its only been a week, that alone says that that it really isnt that bad for people who truely work towards it.

even with rng, doing it more will eventualy yield you results, if rng was such a bad factor, those groups doing it together that were so determined to get it done asap would still be working at it because they whould be getting 0 drops cuz "rng is so bad" like some people claim

granted, rng IS bad on the low end of the scale for LOW POINT RUNS, but in higher point runs, with an orginized group, rng isnt a factor at all in the hamlet end of things.

and even with melding, yes you can get really bad luck, but that same bad luck can be had with a 90% chance to meld too, so again, it isnt the section people should worry about.

at that point its going to come down to the drop rate in av/cc, which only a few people are commenting on, the same people who went out of their way to make sure theyd get their asap.....once more people get there we will get more results on how good or bad the rates can be(for now all we know is they are bad form the 1 or 2 people on it who actualy post here)


but overall, up to that point, people are MAJORLY overreacting to this seriously

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Estellios,

But you see, that's just it: You got the Lucky Dice Roll and got 3 Seals in 4 Tries. Congrats (seriously) and I'm happy for you. :)

But it's just luck.

I posted my results last weekend (3 full days & losing sleep) going 0/25 on Primal Seals. ZERO.

There's a JP Player I've seen at every Hamlet Defense I go to and we ended up in the same PUG last Sunday. I asked them how their Seal collecting was going: 1 Primal Seal for about ~1.5 WEEKS worth of grinding (whenever it was in Stage 2).

I have a JP friend who runs their own JP LS to do content. As the LS Leader (he lets everyone keep their own drops), he got ZERO Seals last weekend running Hamlet Defense non-stop. And I know another JP friend who got all 9 Seals the week before already (spending far less time) and is doing AV/CC non-stop.

How is this fine or OK?

It's great for those that got the Lucky Dice Roll. For everyone else, sorry, it's *not* "OK" or "fine."

And hearing Sniper and others talk about AV/CC's Relic Item Drop Rate sounds even more depressing.

Ultimately, if Yoshida-san wants to rely on *some* Luck / RNG, that's his choice and I think it's ~Ok if used sparingly. But too many steps of this Relic Weapon Quest rely on the Random Number Generator (most of it).

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You guys must not be getting a high score or someone isn't saying they got a seal when they did, or your luck must be astronomically low. Almost all the people that have been posting in this thread doing seal farming have said how often the seals drop.

Maybe there is a glitch with the drop rates on your server, if it is that bad.

I'm not saying that I love having to rely on luck, hell I think they should make seals 100% drop if you get 60k+ since they practically are for most people. The drop rate is really not that bad currently, not enough that people are getting mad about, something is just really up with your group. Like I said, maybe it is a glitch and you should post about it so they can check it out.

The dungeon drop rate is more deserving of hatred, unless there is some hidden factor that makes it drop more often.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Used to be 1 mill.

Not like that mattered though there were only so many Dynamis shells on the server and you couldn't just get up and enter because the zones were allowed only one party at a time.

Randomly entering dynamis was a good way to get your group blacklisted on the entire server for screwing up larger shells dynamis scheduels. Hell you would be lucky to get enough currency to make a decent profit especially if you were getting the lower currency on your server. (Odin was all about byne bills being worthless) yet you could hardly buy them because people were hording their cash even if they would never get the relic they were holding on to it for dear life.

It's not as simple as you make it sounds, it's part of the reason only a litteral handfull of people ever had relic weapons (Obviously until they made it soloable in Abysea lol)

Then you did have to fight the RNG when you got to your attestations, wich in itself was hard enough to convince even your sponsored shell to do, attestations runs were much less profitable and much harder. You could always tells them to screw themselves and you would find another shell....and then the 100's of others waiting to sponsor a shell would take over for you and you would become one of those 100's waiting for a shell to sponsor again.

Relic Weapons weren't just currency, they had a ton of other things that limited the average player from getting them. It's a far from perfect system and needs to stop being used as a comparable system for FFXIV relics. While the current Relic system is a bit bunk in areas at least everyone gets a fair chance instead of having to be the lucky (and rediculously rich) guy sponsor a shell.

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I think in the process of using Dyna(as so many others have) things have been skewed horribly. Read the rest, we said it was 1mil for years then 500k for years then free and daily. To go into the mechanics of 1 64man group at a time, also changed, currency from server to server pricing changed. We know the point which is so easily being over looked is that, at no point did you fail to get anything when you went and did even halfway decent. If your stuck on what happened to you back in '05 I'm sorry it went poorly. I'm sorry you payed more than others or struggled to buy your currency do to horders. W/E get past that and come back around to the point.

'08~'11(Until empy90s) relic and mythic was still the best things going, and even now they aren't bad if you put in the time. The cost was 500k after it WAS 1mil but before abyssea, after abyssea some time it became free. I never went on a run that went well that walked w/ less than 150 currency total, usually closer to 200, sell the cost of the lamp, again sorry if you happened to be on a 2k/piece server, not really though because it means that your only paying 2k a piece toward your relic too.

Post free daily dyna 300+ runs for lowman was the norm, I'm not comparing that you'll notice. You may also notice that I'm not picking any ONE part of current questline, I'm talking about RNG garbage period being included in it as the difficulty marker and time determination.

FFS ppl let go of this nit picky shit and look at the over arching point. Unless you've found a way to consistently beat the RNG then please do tell.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

You guys must not be getting a high score or someone isn't saying they got a seal when they did, or your luck must be astronomically low. Almost all the people that have been posting in this thread doing seal farming have said how often the seals drop.

Maybe there is a glitch with the drop rates on your server, if it is that bad.

I'm not saying that I love having to rely on luck, hell I think they should make seals 100% drop if you get 60k+ since they practically are for most people. The drop rate is really not that bad currently, not enough that people are getting mad about, something is just really up with your group. Like I said, maybe it is a glitch and you should post about it so they can check it out.

The dungeon drop rate is more deserving of hatred, unless there is some hidden factor that makes it drop more often.

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Hi Estellios,

In the earlier post a few days ago, I posted all the specifics: 25 Runs (22 were 65,000+ Points, 3 were 50,000+ (due to some mixups in killing the key mobs)).

I know at least 8 separate people personally (different LSs, different servers) that went on streaks of over 50 Wins with Zero Drops on Ifrit (for themselves). Yet I helped 2 different people get their Ifrit's Axe on their *first* win.

It's probably just bad luck and the Random Number Generator at work. :( But that's what many on this thread are talking about.

I just wish they found more ways to incorporate more skill, effort and fairness vs. Random / Luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

but essentialy, if you want to use dynamis as an example, you really do have to use the "back then" stats of it and not the "now" version of it because the now version of it is the way it is because everything there is so irrelevant

so 1mil per entry is still what we look at
and doing it every 3 days is still what we have to look at unfortunately if you even want to come close to comparing it

every aspect of it from that point of view makes it take alot longer in almost every single aspect to complete then the hamlet end of things does now, hell even every other aspect of it will still probly take tons longer in comparison to the whole process now.

the fact that people who are grinding it a ton are at such a late stage in the quest says alot since its only been a week, that alone says that that it really isnt that bad for people who truely work towards it.

even with rng, doing it more will eventualy yield you results, if rng was such a bad factor, those groups doing it together that were so determined to get it done asap would still be working at it because they whould be getting 0 drops cuz "rng is so bad" like some people claim

granted, rng IS bad on the low end of the scale for LOW POINT RUNS, but in higher point runs, with an orginized group, rng isnt a factor at all in the hamlet end of things.

and even with melding, yes you can get really bad luck, but that same bad luck can be had with a 90% chance to meld too, so again, it isnt the section people should worry about.

at that point its going to come down to the drop rate in av/cc, which only a few people are commenting on, the same people who went out of their way to make sure theyd get their asap.....once more people get there we will get more results on how good or bad the rates can be(for now all we know is they are bad form the 1 or 2 people on it who actualy post here)


but overall, up to that point, people are MAJORLY overreacting to this seriously

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while i don't deny that people are making progress it doesn't change the fact that it's still pure luck. with zero fairness at all. yes you can double meld a weapon but if it takes 1 guy 1 attempt and another guy 10 its unfair. if it takes 1 guy 50 hamlets to get sealss and another guy 500 its unfair.

the system needs to done in a fair methodology where people can see a level of progress that is equal to everyone else. not a system where you can grind the crap out of it and have some guy come along and get his stuff in a fraction of your time.

seeing as everyone relates to xi relic system. the system as is would in xi essentially be the goblin guy telling one guy hey you need 10 100 pieces to upgrade your amano. then telling the next guy he needs 80 for the same upgrade. both can still progress but its far from fair.

no matter how much you sugar coat the current system its luck luck luck every step of the way. doesn't stop people making progress but i can guarantee that everyones put in a different amount of work and effort to get tot he same stage and it shouldnt be that way. every person on stage 5 should have done the exact same work and effort as every other person to get to stage 5 and the same for stage 10 etc

2 things people are asking for. progress and a fair system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Estellios

You guys must not be getting a high score or someone isn't saying they got a seal when they did, or your luck must be astronomically low. Almost all the people that have been posting in this thread doing seal farming have said how often the seals drop.

Maybe there is a glitch with the drop rates on your server, if it is that bad.

I'm not saying that I love having to rely on luck, hell I think they should make seals 100% drop if you get 60k+ since they practically are for most people. The drop rate is really not that bad currently, not enough that people are getting mad about, something is just really up with your group. Like I said, maybe it is a glitch and you should post about it so they can check it out.

The dungeon drop rate is more deserving of hatred, unless there is some hidden factor that makes it drop more often.

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I can attest that I have seen Kia out grinding the Hamlets...so she's def. putting in the time. And while I am not in their group, it is a solid group of players that should be getting 60K+ fairly consistantly. I don't know how they are handling drops of course, but I can say based on my experience so far, I have yet to actually have a seal actually drop into my inventory for the 3-5 hours i spend every night getting consistant 60K+ wins with my group. (Usually with a top 20 provisioner in the group to boot). So if people 'keep their drops' I'd still have yet to get one personally, even though I see a seal drop to someone in the party every 3 battles or so. So it IS possible to just get that screwed.

With luck, I'll get my first seal tonight (it's my turn in the drop rotation to get one). But the only reason I can say that is because the group I play with has decided, everyone gets 1 seal first, then everyone can have 2...etc. But this only works if you static and play with folks you trust.

...and this is the first step. Imagine how sucky the CC/AV drops are gonna be when you can't pass them to eachother.


Keep in mind it's the RNG system I hate, not the difficulty or grind. But it IS possible for people to have been grinding Hamlets during all their freetime, getting 60K+scores w/ a top provisioner and still have nothing to show for it. Just because you/your group got more lucky doesn't make it better for the folks who are on the low end of the scale.

@Dazian AMEN...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Estellios

You guys must not be getting a high score or someone isn't saying they got a seal when they did, or your luck must be astronomically low. Almost all the people that have been posting in this thread doing seal farming have said how often the seals drop.

Maybe there is a glitch with the drop rates on your server, if it is that bad.

I'm not saying that I love having to rely on luck, hell I think they should make seals 100% drop if you get 60k+ since they practically are for most people. The drop rate is really not that bad currently, not enough that people are getting mad about, something is just really up with your group. Like I said, maybe it is a glitch and you should post about it so they can check it out.

The dungeon drop rate is more deserving of hatred, unless there is some hidden factor that makes it drop more often.

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Hes pointing out his personal rate to justifies his view. The seals probably drop but just to other people and not him.

Seal Drop Rate is fine, and like above poster said, a lot of people use the "Keep it if it goes to your inventory" system. I'm personally part of a LS Alliance where we have give or take ~15 people whoever is on coming in and out of the hamlets. All runs are 60k. We went 8/11 the other night, which was awesome. We also went 1/8 @ Aleport, which was not so awesome. The problem with any kind of RNG Drop-rate is that there IS the chance you're gonna get jipped.


Let's be thankful it isnt the Primal loot system where they drop directly into your inventory. LOL


However, I think you should be able to buy the seals with Hamlet points. That way those getting 68k seals a run will complete it much faster

You guys are complaining about the wrong part of the quest. Seal drop rate is a billion times better then this Mythril.

One mythril drop out of 344 individual chests. This type of troll shit on their part is asinine. If you don't want us to progress deeper into the quest right now, don't put it in at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Madruk

One mythril drop out of 344 individual chests. This type of troll shit on their part is asinine. If you don't want us to progress deeper into the quest right now, don't put it in at all.

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Did you get more darklight in that period of time? *serious question lol*

I think 7 darklight drops now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Madruk

One mythril drop out of 344 individual chests. This type of troll shit on their part is asinine. If you don't want us to progress deeper into the quest right now, don't put it in at all.

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So in 43 runs only 1 person got a Mythril? You should probably refrain from saying 344 individual chests because then people are going to start saying it's a 1/344 drop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quatre

[...]

However, I think you should be able to buy the seals with Hamlet points. That way those getting 68k seals a run will complete it much faster

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There is a problem with the drop rate if you are getting 68,000 seals every run. I need to get into your parties! ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isaaru

So in 43 runs only 1 person got a Mythril? You should probably refrain from saying 344 individual chests because then people are going to start saying it's a 1/344 drop.

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I can't really control how stupid people can come to conclusions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Madruk

I can't really control how stupid people can come to conclusions.

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Well when you cluster 8 people's individual chests together, that's poor wording. Especially when referring to a drop rate. You can't control how stupid people come to conclusions, but you can help them not come to stupid conclusions.

Only it is 344 individual chests....

Everyone gets their own individual drop from it.

We all seem to have serious apprehensions about the system in place.
I've read and tried to understand most of the arguments and can sympathise.

However, I will still say the following:
The problem is the delivery mechanism of these exclusive rewards are restricted to content that can be completed in 15-30 minutes. Therefore the drop rate must be scaled down accordingly. The crux of the dilemma is that repeating 15-30 minute content over and over is not very pleasurable.

I think, perhaps, rather than indicating how many drops / run, or drops / chest, what might be more useful is how many drops / hr.

(Warning: Over simplified maths)
I.e.: If each run is 30 minutes, and you get one item every 10 runs, then that is a rate of 1/300 min (1 item per 5 hours). From which you can figure out:
I need 10 items, therefore I need 50 hours.

With this you have a common basis to compare with other content, including Dynamis.

Also, as has been emphasized by others including Thevedis, multiple times:

We are getting lots of stuff besides that ONE item that is presently being sought out.

If in the course of trying to get seals and mythril I get 50M worth of gear and lots of rare/ex, it is worth noting ^^;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiara

To: Yoshida-san and the FF14 Team

Seeing the requirements for just opening up the Quest for the Relic Weapons (not even earning the final Relic), I have one plea:

* Please STOP relying on the "Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate" to use as a Time Sink to keep the players busy. :(

We realize you have to keep the players busy while you work hard on 2.0. Many of us are *fine* with Long Term Goals and needs to draw out content.

But NOT through the current "Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate" style of rewards we've been suffering through from Ifrit Weapons to Darklight to Materia Melding and Primal Seals, and now with the rest of the steps of the prerequisites for the Relic Weapon Quest (and this isn't even the final step).

For those that don't know, thanks to Sniper and other veterans we've confirmed that the steps just to activate the Relic Weapon Quest are:



Yoshida-san, this is essentially just "Rolling the Dice / Gambling / Playing the Lottery." It emphasizes REPETITION and DUMB LUCK to stretch out content.

I realize you can't create brand-new, detailed Story-based Missions that are full of Unique Monsters that we'd have to take down (for example, Chains of Promathea's Story Missions (early days)) since you're focusing on 2.0.

But using Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rates to make things last longer *doesn't* make the content or rewards "difficult." It's simply the easiest, most mind-numbing way to stretch out content. :(

How about *rewarding* players for their *effort* and *skill* instead?

Here are some quick ideas using your CURRENT ASSETS (with minor work at best) that would make the Relic Weapon Prerequisites more fair and based on Player Effort and providing CHALLENGE:

• Prove Your Skill & Teamwork by: Defeating Aurum Vale & Cutter's Cry without dying (no deaths).

• Prove Your Tenacity and "Learn" to bond with your Weapon by: Defeating 500 Enemies (Equal Level or Higher, or whatever specific Mob) with your "Broken (early) Pre-Relic Weapon."

• Prove Your Valour by: Defeating Certain "New" Notorious Monsters (NMs):
  • Infected Great Buffalo: Re-use the SAME Buffalo NM Model, but buff it up.
  • Infected Uraeus: Re-use the SAME Uraeus NM Model, but buff it up.
  • Infected Mosshorn: Re-use the SAME Mosshorn NM Model, but buff it up.
  • Infected Dodore: Re-use the SAME Dodore NM Model, but buff it up.
  • "New" Guivre / Drake NM: Re-use the *awesome* looking Guivre / Drake monster (we already have in-game), but scale it up 20% and balance the damage on its moves.
    
    For those that have never ventured to the farthest reaches of Eorzea, you should walk around and see these awesome looking creatures we have in-game. :) The Doomvoid Guivre, for example, looks amazing and glows when it attacks, etc. SE can easily turn this into an "NM" with some tweaks, without having to make a brand-new Model.
    
    http://ffxiv.zam.com/Im/image/177621
    http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Fi...voidGuivre.png

• Defeat All *3* Beastmen Strongholds using your "Broken Pre-Relic Weapon" Without Dying.

• Overcome the "Secret / Reverse Path" of [Dzemael / Cutter's Cry / Aurum Vale]" and gain the [Enchanted Item] at the end to continue. This would be re-using our current Dungeons, but let's say after you clear it (going forward), a new "Gate" highlights and you open up a Side Path (or run the dungeon in Reverse) with BUFFED UP Mobs, new Objectives, etc. (using the same mobs as before), etc. (Obviously Boss placement would be at the "end" of the new path / reverse dungeon path.)

• Incapacitate All Body Parts from [Certain NM] and Defeat them: This would challenge players to work on destroying various Body Parts of an NM before defeating them, and it would emphasize, weaving in and out, avoiding attacks from various sides, overcoming the Adds perhaps, while breaking down a Boss.

I'm not saying these are the best ideas (at all), but they all are MUCH BETTER than rolling the dice and playing the Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate game that you have now.

Even the mundane task of "killing 500 Enemies" that I listed (with your broken Relic) is at least a *measurable* task that EVERYONE can gain the benefit from.

The key point is that it's much more palatable, encouraging, and desirable to know that you are making positive progress each time you effort, instead of just hoping and praying that you get the lucky DICE ROLL and you happened to get your drop for a Primal Seal (which you need 9 of from 3 separate Hamlets (that need to be in Stage 2, that need a 60,000+ Point Total, and that has a low drop rate), or a drop for your HQ Mats to craft one of the new hard Synths (Class Weapons), or you get the lucky roll for your Double Melding Materia on that Weapon to turn in.

And in addition to measurable progress (like a Point System, or # of Kills, or Ancient Currency (like Dynamis)), is the hope of something that also rewards more Skill and Effort instead of just pure dumb luck.

Yoshida-san, the new 2.0 Screenshots and Artwork and your new Interviews are all wonderful and encouraging, and it gives us hope.

But then at the same time, we get punched in the gut with YET ANOTHER "RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR / Dumb Luck / Gambling / Rolling The Dice" task with the Relic Weapon Upgrades.

Please reconsider the Quest Path for Relic Weapons, and especially for the *majority* of 2.0 End Game Content.

And note that we're *NOT* asking for everything to be "easy" or "given to us fast." Long Term Goals are OK (and I love them)! But we need to have Rewards Systems that actually reward Player Skill and Effort and provides Good Challenge, instead of just making us SPAM / Throw Ourselves at a certain task over and over and hoping for a Blind Luck Dice Roll. :(

There's NO skill in praying that you can Double Meld 2 Tier IV Materias onto your costly Class Only Weapon. It's just gambling and rolling the dice.

Same for hoping you get 9 Primal Seals dropped into your inventory, spamming the same Hamlet Defense over and over.

2.0 shows *so* much promise. Please don't ruin our expectations and demoralize us with any more of this Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate-style content.

Thank you!

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I agree with a lot of this, I just tried getting top three on my server for hamlet ranking so I can have normal drop rate for the relic seals, spent 1 week, every day gathering/farming mats for the hamlet points, saved up about 1 mil points in materials, traded in today, saved 300k points for last 5 min, (was aiming to get third place) and ended up getting fourth. With 1 mil points traded in... This is why SE's current relic quest is a horrible idea! Honestly this random luck/chance loot system is exactly why ff14 has about 300k people playing and not 10mil+ . SE if you wish to continue doing your loots distribution in such a random chance way, I strongly advise you not to keep saying that ff14 is designed for normal people who can only dedicate 3-5 hours to the game a day, Cause that's a LIE! Current game mechanics are designed for players who spend 15+ hours logged in a day, so from a business point of view, you need to change your system or this game will never attract more players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isaaru

So in 43 runs only 1 person got a Mythril? You should probably refrain from saying 344 individual chests because then people are going to start saying it's a 1/344 drop.

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which is the point i was bringing up earlier about some people mirepresenting the drop rates