"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Self centred is 1 person being prioritized over the other 3. Self is singular. So is the number 1

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Yes, and in their example, you are the one person being prioritized. You have no idea in almost all situations what the other people in your party want. You weren't elected to speak for them.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

I agree with that. As long as the person is ABLE to play at that level. Walk through a dungeon is a bad example, because that's willingly making people lose their time. On the other hand, pulling small pack can be a lack of skill, and that, you can't blame a player for that. Deal with it or votekick him, but don't come on the forum saying those people are a problem.

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Dungeons don't require any "special" skill level. But content later does. If you carry a person through everything because they "lack skill", later on they will expect the same from groups in harder content because that's how their entire journey went.
While not everyone will be interested in harder content, some people are. They join parties and waste everyone's time because they still have no idea what a stack marker is.
In the end they end up being kicked from groups and being avoided. That's not very great gaming experience.

Pulling one pack or two makes no difference in what buttons you press. But you save more resources using skills on 6 mobs instead of 3.
Also, I can come to forums to cry or talk about whatever "in game stuff" I want. That's what forums are for.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Dungeons don't require any "special" skill level. But content later does. If you carry a person through everything because they "lack skill", later on they will expect the same from groups in harder content because that's how their entire journey went.
While not everyone will be interested in harder content, some people are. They join parties and waste everyone's time because they still have no idea what a stack marker is.
In the end they end up being kicked from groups and being avoided. That's not very great gaming experience.

Pulling one pack or two makes no difference in what buttons you press. But you save more resources using skills on 6 mobs instead of 3.
Also, I can come to forums to cry or talk about whatever "in game stuff" I want. That's what forums are for.

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You just proved my point, that you guys just don't want to play with people that have less skills than you. "people that lack skills make me loose my time" is basically what you just said. Then don't use DF, because that's mostly what you will find. And you use extreme examples to not admit it.

Also, I wouldn't call letting a tank go at the rythm he feels right carry him. To me letting him take is time is the best way for him to learn. I feel we're not talking about the dps taking the aggro instead of the tanks here. That goes also for that "harder content". Harder content has several tanks and barely any trash (or trash that will aggro you automatically anyway). So talking about harder content doesn't matter here.

I would add that I rarely see someone ASK if a tank want to try to go faster. No people run, say nothing, and aggro.

Finally, it's not only a question of "pressing the buttons" but a matter of pressure of playing a class you're not used to. I'm the first one raging when I get one of those, but hey they do what they can. Part of playing a mmo is having to deal with people, and some of them are really bad. It's annoying but if you want people that can play, use the PF instead of the DF.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

You just proved my point, that you guys just don't want to play with people that have less skills than you. "people that lack skills make me loose my time" is basically what you just said. Then don't use DF, because that's mostly what you will find.

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Did you actually read what I said?
https://i.postimg.cc/BbVPBV67/e02e5f...me-419-238.png

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Did you actually read what I said?
https://i.postimg.cc/BbVPBV67/e02e5f...me-419-238.png

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How should I understand that if not "people that have less skill than me make me lose my time.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

While not everyone will be interested in harder content, some people are. They join parties and waste everyone's time because they still have no idea what a stack marker is.

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especially in the context of the thread. If we were talking about horrible players, sure, that could mean something else, but we're talking about letting a tank chose the rythm he is confortable with

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

How should I understand that if not "people that have less skill than me make me lose my time.

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It's not a good idea to twist someone's words when you clearly don't understand what the post is about.
I recommend reading again. Otherwise there's no point to continue this topic with you.

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

Yes, and in their example, you are the one person being prioritized. You have no idea in almost all situations what the other people in your party want. You weren't elected to speak for them.

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Considering I run with my spouse, I personally am never 1 person being prioritized. We are also tank / healer so this discussion is not an issue for me. But my opinion is, tanks need to keep pace with the party.


@CNitsah

Just because you don’t agree doesn’t make me wrong

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

lol. That's the worst argument I've heard in a long time. self-centered means that only your interest matter, and you don't care about the ones of others. The fact you're 3 people self-centered that can't understand that the 4th one may not be able to do better just make you 3 self-centered people.

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Being the one person in a run who doesn't want to play a certain way and expecting 3 others to conform is exactly what being self-centred is. In this example, the tank that wants to single pull while the other three members of the duty want double pulls. This is grade school stuff.

You can't have 3 people who all want the same thing be self-centred. That's called group interest. The one person who does not share the group's interest and expects conformity is self-centred.

Like, hello? Did you actually write that and think, "yes, that makes sense". Geez.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

You're suggesting that a single individual in the party (the tank) has more say in the pace of the run than 3 other people. That is incredibly flawed. If I'm in a run with a slow tank and the rest of the party wants to go fast, then it's not really up to the tank. 3 people want to go faster, so they will. Now if I'm in a party with a tank that wants to go slow and I indicate a desire to go faster and the rest of the party wants to go slow, then I'm outvoted and speak nothing of it further. The idea that I should resign my vote due exclusively to not being the tank at a given moment is asinine. If people want to use trusts or run with friends more than solo queing then that is their choice of how to interact with the majority vote concept.

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But what if the tank can't go faster? They might be undergeared or just inexperienced. The dps or healer may also not be up to par. They may *want* to go faster but the individual party makeup may just have limits. I think this is the main problem in groups today. It's not common to assess capability on a group by group basis, so people get locked into blanket mentalities of what should happen, when this can vary wildly in a randomly matched party.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

But what if the tank can't go faster? They might be undergeared or just inexperienced. The dps or healer may also not be up to par. They may *want* to go faster but the individual party makeup may just have limits. I think this is the main problem in groups today. It's not common to assess capability on a group by group basis, so people get locked into blanket mentalities of what's should happen, when this can vary wildly in a randomly matched party.

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If the tank is undergeared, then it's for the healer to decide if they can handle it. Even if a tank is not familiar with their mits, it is up to the healer to decide if they can handle the improper CD usuage.

The tank may be the one keeping aggro, but the healer is the one keeping them alive. So if they can handle a squishy, sprout tank double pulling, then double pull.

I've seen healers keep DPS alive through tank busters and double pulls. If they can do that, they can keep a green tank alive.

lol, people pretending that the tank isn't the pace setter. Sure, keep believing that your voice matters lol.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

lol, people pretending that the tank isn't the pace setter. Sure, keep believing that your voice matters lol.

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They aren’t. They are part of a team. Not the default leader.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

They aren’t. They are part of a team. Not the default leader.

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https://media.tenor.com/ITvWX_cPGWsA...ck-sparrow.gif

next time you're dutifully following behind your tank, I hope you remember this conversation.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

If the tank is undergeared, then it's for the healer to decide if they can handle it. Even if a tank is not familiar with their mits, it is up to the healer to decide if they can handle the improper CD usuage.

The tank may be the one keeping aggro, but the healer is the one keeping them alive. So if they can handle a squishy, sprout tank double pulling, then double pull.

I've seen healers keep DPS alive through tank busters and double pulls. If they can do that, they can keep a green tank alive.

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I've seen plenty of tanks especially in Mt Gulg that wiped our party multiple times because they really needed to dial back on the big pulls. Sometimes the tank and healer are on point and it's the dps who are lacking. The point is, every party needs to be assessed individually, instead of going in with preconceived notions. Then the party will be able to adjust as needed, which sometimes may be smaller pulls that die quickly instead of massive pulls that die slowly and cause undue stress.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

lol, people pretending that the tank isn't the pace setter. Sure, keep believing that your voice matters lol.

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Great community btw.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

I've seen healers keep DPS alive through tank busters and double pulls. If they can do that, they can keep a green tank alive.

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As a healer who has healed DPS through the above, this is 100% correct.

Trash pulls don't really need a tank if the DPS is decent, a healer can keep them alive. Hell, depending on the boss, a melee can tank just fine.

This conversation went fun places while I was away.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I've seen plenty of tanks especially in Mt Gulg that wiped our party multiple times because they really needed to dial back on the big pulls. Sometimes the tank and healer are on point and it's the dps who are lacking. The point is, every party needs to be assessed individually, instead of going in with preconceived notions. Then the party will be able to adjust as needed, which sometimes may be smaller pulls that die quickly instead of massive pulls that die slowly and cause undue stress.

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This makes me want to ask those who either support single pulling or believe that the tank is the singular pace setter a question. How much does a wipe bother you? Explicitly for dungeon mob packs. How much is it a problem in your opinion to wipe?

Emerging from my cobweb-coated casket to once again state that YPYT is the coward's mindset.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

Being the one person in a run who doesn't want to play a certain way and expecting 3 others to conform is exactly what being self-centred is. In this example, the tank that wants to single pull while the other three members of the duty want double pulls. This is grade school stuff.

You can't have 3 people who all want the same thing be self-centred. That's called group interest. The one person who does not share the group's interest and expects conformity is self-centred.

Like, hello? Did you actually write that and think, "yes, that makes sense". Geez.

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Once again, you present that as if it was a choice, but sometimes it's the best they can deal with. I'm for adapting to the level of the weakest link of a group. It makes sense to slower when the person seem to not be able to do more. Because most of the time, the weaker link of the group will not be able to step up to the lvl of the better one. You see the matter as a simple mathematic problem, we're 3, you're 1, so adapt. And if he can't, you may wipe. That's ok, but forcing your pace and complaining other can't keep up or won't let you force them is wanting both sides of the coin.

Also your whole argument is based on number makes it right. There are more casual on this game, so I guess overall, you guys play the wrong way, and should adapt to casuals. (it's ridiculous example, but it show how the argument is flawed)

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

Once again, you present that as if it was a choice, but sometimes it's the best they can deal with. I'm for adapting to the level of the weakest link of a group. It makes sense to slower when the person seem to not be able to do more. Because most of the time, the weaker link of the group will not be able to step up to the lvl of the better one. You see the matter as a simple mathematic problem, we're 3, you're 1, so adapt. And if he can't, you may wipe. That's ok, but forcing your pace and complaining other can't keep up or won't let you force them is wanting both sides of the coin.

Also your whole argument is based on number makes it right. There are more casual on this game, so I guess overall, you guys play the wrong way, and should adapt to casuals. (it's ridiculous example, but it show how the argument is flawed)

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Casual doesn't mean single pull exclusively nor does it mean unskilled. In my experience people tend to get better when presented with the opportunity to do so. Such as having more mobs to tank. Besides even if that singular tank doesn't think they are up to the task, the rest of the party usually is and can pick up the slack.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

https://media.tenor.com/ITvWX_cPGWsA...ck-sparrow.gif

next time you're dutifully following behind your tank, I hope you remember this conversation.

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I’ll remind myself when I’m tanking…? Or when my spouse tanks and I’m the whm…?

Tanks aren’t the leaders. Most people who play tank aren’t cut out to lead

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

As a healer who has healed DPS through the above, this is 100% correct.

Trash pulls don't really need a tank if the DPS is decent, a healer can keep them alive. Hell, depending on the boss, a melee can tank just fine.

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I mean, to even add to that, I have seen a RDM carry a party through E12N where the healers were non-stop dying 5 seconds after rezzing. The RDM kept healing and rezzing the tanks until completion. You really don't need a standard party when you have some players that excel. I understand that this was an above-average player, but it is still very much possible to carry an underperforming player.

So this whole argument of "what if the tank can't handle it" is silly. It's not about the underperforming. It's about everyone else being able to pick up the slack. Which is what this game is literally designed around. Yoshi-P even said so in reference to alliance raids.

I only play tank because of some cool drk glamour.
Im slow, I fall behind, you pull I will tank Im not a pussy but boy will it take a while to the point that it turns into “you pull you die, not because I didn’t try though” but look at the bright side, you die while I look edgy and cool :3.

i think my favourite part about this is when people defend doing it to save time... when the game makes it clear that the tank tanks, however the game doesn't make it clear that some of the community is dead-set on pulling when they aren't a tank.

if your excuse is "well it's faster i pull unless the tank cries about it" means it isn't faster because of that one little point you're conveniently omitting in your calculations: the tank isn't going to always agree with you. this is a game with thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of players with varying levels of interaction with the community. not every tank is going to know or play that way and so, yes, if you pull and they let you "tank" it, it's your fault. you started it, not them.

it is very rare i have had a dps/healer "pull" for me, if ever. as soon as my pull is done (and i pull EVERYTHING), i'm already sprinting to the next. they don't have -time- to pull for me. this is also why i like playing war on my main -- watching myself just... heal myself without any help from the healer itches the bit of my brain that goes "mmmmm bigg numburr..." hell (even though my fingers are thankful for the lack of carpal tunnel) i miss the old inner release from shb because with a short enough gcd and rapidly tapping fingers you could squeeze in an extra fell cleave or two for really big numbers.

so yeah, tl;dr: if you're not the tank and you pull, you do so while also acknowledging the risk that comes with it and that risk is having a tank who will -happily- watch you slowly slough through trash because you're now down a green DPS who's stuck spamming regens and shields because of you.

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Originally Posted by Denji

i think my favourite part about this is when people defend doing it to save time... when the game makes it clear that the tank tanks, however the game doesn't make it clear that some of the community is dead-set on pulling when they aren't a tank.

if your excuse is "well it's faster i pull unless the tank cries about it" means it isn't faster because of that one little point you're conveniently omitting in your calculations: the tank isn't going to always agree with you. this is a game with thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of players with varying levels of interaction with the community. not every tank is going to know or play that way and so, yes, if you pull and they let you "tank" it, it's your fault. you started it, not them.

it is very rare i have had a dps/healer "pull" for me, if ever. as soon as my pull is done (and i pull EVERYTHING), i'm already sprinting to the next. they don't have -time- to pull for me. this is also why i like playing war on my main -- watching myself just... heal myself without any help from the healer itches the bit of my brain that goes "mmmmm bigg numburr..." hell (even though my fingers are thankful for the lack of carpal tunnel) i miss the old inner release from shb because with a short enough gcd and rapidly tapping fingers you could squeeze in an extra fell cleave or two for really big numbers.

so yeah, tl;dr: if you're not the tank and you pull, you do so while also acknowledging the risk that comes with it and that risk is having a tank who will -happily- watch you slowly slough through trash because you're now down a green DPS who's stuck spamming regens and shields because of you.

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https://media.tenor.com/3NPRpmUEzCUA...the-tavern.gif

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Originally Posted by Denji

you're now down a green DPS who's stuck spamming regens and shields because of you.

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Easily rectified by the tank just aoeing the mobs like they should already be doing with the ones they pulled them self.

Problem solved

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

ive noticed that not alot of people actually say something in party chat. so if a tank says nothing you really just can't assume.

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sprout status, item level of gear. If no sprout status and ok gear (like one for tome stones) - you can clearly assume w2w pulls "until further notice"

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Originally Posted by Denji

i think my favourite part about this is when people defend doing it to save time... when the game makes it clear that the tank tanks, however the game doesn't make it clear that some of the community is dead-set on pulling when they aren't a tank.

if your excuse is "well it's faster i pull unless the tank cries about it" means it isn't faster because of that one little point you're conveniently omitting in your calculations: the tank isn't going to always agree with you. this is a game with thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of players with varying levels of interaction with the community. not every tank is going to know or play that way and so, yes, if you pull and they let you "tank" it, it's your fault. you started it, not them.

it is very rare i have had a dps/healer "pull" for me, if ever. as soon as my pull is done (and i pull EVERYTHING), i'm already sprinting to the next. they don't have -time- to pull for me. this is also why i like playing war on my main -- watching myself just... heal myself without any help from the healer itches the bit of my brain that goes "mmmmm bigg numburr..." hell (even though my fingers are thankful for the lack of carpal tunnel) i miss the old inner release from shb because with a short enough gcd and rapidly tapping fingers you could squeeze in an extra fell cleave or two for really big numbers.

so yeah, tl;dr: if you're not the tank and you pull, you do so while also acknowledging the risk that comes with it and that risk is having a tank who will -happily- watch you slowly slough through trash because you're now down a green DPS who's stuck spamming regens and shields because of you.

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If they just watch people get hit they are trash tanks. Why cant they just aoe once and aggro the mobs? Takes a second. Answer: because they are childish and petty people who think they are the big kahuna. A party is a party. People need to do the role or leave. No one cares about someone’s ego in dutyfinder. They want to kill stuff,get to the end and leave.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

This conversation went fun places while I was away.



This makes me want to ask those who either support single pulling or believe that the tank is the singular pace setter a question. How much does a wipe bother you? Explicitly for dungeon mob packs. How much is it a problem in your opinion to wipe?

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Well you quoted me but I'm not either of those things. It's less about supporting single pulling and more advocating for understanding what the capabilities are in the group and making adjustments as needed so the party can get through smoothly and without drama.

I don't care if we wipe. Pick myself up and try again. Help out where I can with mech explanation if it's desired. It's the others who lose their minds when one wipe happens that make it miserable for everyone else.

So I'm mostly concerned with the comfort level of the party and I don't have ego about stepping up and having to carry things if necessary to get the party through the instance. That's kind of what I feel like I'm there for as the vet.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

oh the ones who get the strikes are bans are part of a group dedicated to early pulling to ruin it for trains. they got their methods in finding the marks. even some S ranks got hit early as well.

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Lol people always try to say this. Its been said many times by gm etc The hunt mobs are open world and for everyone. No one has rights to them or priority. If people want to kill them they can without a worry in the world. Only weird people try to gatekeep them. So no,No one is getting banned/warned/suspended for killing them.

I hate that people try to fearmonger people into not doing it just so the mobs can sit there for hours till someone makes a train. They respawn. Its not the end of the world if people dont get a whole 40 tomes.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

If a DPS or healer pulls in front of you as a tank, refusing to grab aggro and watching them die (or not; sometimes the healer or DPS can survive easily) is just petty. It's basically a temper tantrum. It's an "I gotta teach them a lesson" sorta attitude that is frankly kinda cringe.

That's just my opinion! Tanks shouldn't do this!

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Well considering the Tank is the boss of the group and dictates the momentum. Respect on how they want to pull stop being impatient.

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Originally Posted by Nyxs

If they just watch people get hit they are trash tanks. Why cant they just aoe once and aggro the mobs? Takes a second. Answer: because they are childish and petty people who think they are the big kahuna. A party is a party. People need to do the role or leave. No one cares about someone’s ego in dutyfinder. They want to kill stuff,get to the end and leave.

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Well the tank is the leader of the party, they are the ones who set the tone for the group not dps nor healer. If you are impatient because you got somewhere to be then don't be in a dungeon if you want to be impatient

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Originally Posted by Velvet_Lunarfang

Well considering the Tank is the boss of the group and dictates the momentum. Respect on how they want to pull stop being impatient.

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Nah. No-one is the boss. It's collaborative. Besides, other players can and will dictate the momentum.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

Nah. No-one is the boss. It's collaborative. Besides, other players can and will dictate the momentum.

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A lot of Main Character Syndrome goes on in the alledged brains of YPYT'ers (extremely rancid decayed corpse of a bait thread but dang if people still put their egos on the line in a video game)

The only thing I hate as a tank is when I'm pulling and I do a wall to wall but I realize very quickly the healer can't handle this and I have to spend over my normal amount of CDs to survive, being that could be new to the game still, newer to the class or just struggling. I just know roughly how many CD I should use vs how many are getting used so I as tank might decide to slow down the pace to prevent wiping. However that doesn't fit some dps's plan on how fast we should run the dungeon so they decide to pull extra and instead we end up in a wipe because our healer couldn't keep up. I noticed this and tried to adjust but impatient DPS don't care and we end up taking longer in the dungeon because of their stupidity. So how about you just trust your tank in the end most tanks have a good feel on what they can do and handle and if a pull doesn't feel right they might slow the pace down a bit for positive reasons.

Coming from someone who has been tanking in MMO's for roughly 10 years now, you pull you tank is complete toxic dogwater.

If your ego is so horrifically fragile that you stop doing your literal role when someone pulls mobs for you instead of expending 2 GCD's max to get aggro off said party member, and you tremble at thought of having more than 3 trash mobs on you at a time anytime further than midway through Heavensward (some leniency for new GNB's if you choose that as your first tank), you probably shouldn't be tanking.

You want to claim to be the "leader" of the group? Start by not being petty when someone dares to have more mobs in the pack.

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Originally Posted by Velvet_Lunarfang

Well considering the Tank is the boss of the group and dictates the momentum. Respect on how they want to pull stop being impatient.

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If a tank refuses to pick up extra mobs because someone else pulled them, they are no leader. They are petty, egotistical and immature. These are not qualities of a leader

I'm that person who pulls whole dungeon, doing one pack of the time is boring.

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

The only thing I hate as a tank is when I'm pulling and I do a wall to wall but I realize very quickly the healer can't handle this and I have to spend over my normal amount of CDs to survive, being that could be new to the game still, newer to the class or just struggling. I just know roughly how many CD I should use vs how many are getting used so I as tank might decide to slow down the pace to prevent wiping. However that doesn't fit some dps's plan on how fast we should run the dungeon so they decide to pull extra and instead we end up in a wipe because our healer couldn't keep up. I noticed this and tried to adjust but impatient DPS don't care and we end up taking longer in the dungeon because of their stupidity. So how about you just trust your tank in the end most tanks have a good feel on what they can do and handle and if a pull doesn't feel right they might slow the pace down a bit for positive reasons.

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You could open your mouth and let everyone know you are slowing down and why, so everyone is on the same page. Though I subscribe to the idea of keeping up the pace. I know it seems harsh, but they have to learn sometime and the best way is to actually do it. We may wipe here and there but they will get experience doing it and hopefully they will start to pick things up.

Some people have thus wrong notion that we w2w/double pull because we are in a rush. The main reason to w2w is it is easier on our cooldowns and resources. As well as it is just wsy more fun.

Tank pulls, if everyone other do it, i let them die. If its accidently, i do take aggro from it.

Deal with it or tank by yourself, thats my 2 pennies for this