Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Conversely I think it's strange that Convalescence is a GLD ability. Think about it, WAR/MRD are the ones that are supposed to require more healing, but the "mitigation tank" (GLD/PLD) is the one that gets the best version of the bonus heals ability?

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lol

check this out

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Enhanced Convalesence
Improves the HP recovery increase granted by Convalesence to 30%.

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Enhanced Foresight
Shortens Foresight recast time to 90 seconds.

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warrior get a gimped version of convalesence
while paladin's foresight function exact the same as warrior's just with a longer CD.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

I'm sorry, you seem to be ignoring something incredibly important here.

Bravura
Strength +27
Vitality +30
Parry +33
Skill Speed +23

Curtana:
Strength +19
Vitality +21
Parry +16
Accuracy +23

I should have been more clear. Yes, our DPS is close, with war winning just a little. However, our damage per swing is worlds ahead of pld - Coupled with our already huge base STR, our gear STR, and our crit rate, it's no contest.

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I didn't forget anything, you have: While WARs only get a weapon and nothing in the offhand slot, PLDs get a weapon + shield. You will find the missing stats on their shield.

http://xivdb.com/?item/2306/Holy-Shield

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

I would read through this thread, but I'm a bit low on time. One question I have to ask is, as a WAR would the DL rings of Maiming be better off than Fending? Instead on focusing on crit, wouldn't a build of 20 STR/10 Vit, which str+skillspeed gear be more beneficial?

I want to try this out personally, since I feel that we have decent amounts of HP regardless, so being able to hit more often would stack out wrath stacks up so much more, no?

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I believe you're onto something.

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Originally Posted by hola

lol

check this out



warrior get a gimped version of convalesence
while paladin's foresight function exact the same as warrior's just with a longer CD.

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Um, Convalesence + wrath + MANTRA. HElllooooo...

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Originally Posted by Tronic

I didn't forget anything, you have: While WARs only get a weapon and nothing in the offhand slot, PLDs get a weapon + shield. You will find the missing stats on their shield.

http://xivdb.com/?item/2306/Holy-Shield

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Which still puts the str woefully behind warrior.

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derp herp derp cookiecutter loving players hiveminding and not even parsing parry and str

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have fun being bad at the game, "Buff warrior!!" saber rattlers. you're obviously not going to figure out what YoshiP and his devs are saying this way. Thanks for reminding me why I kept my mouth shut on this forum for three years.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Sadly, if foresight was made a decent skill it would just instantly make PLD even better. It would enable them to basically have a very long rotation of defensive cooldowns if used in succession (90-130 seconds), or to indefinitely use a big cooldown every time a boss used a big skill such as mountain buster.

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Well thats what traits are for. They could cut the CD from 120 to 60, or 40, or 30 instead of 90 for instance if they wanted to and only WAR would get that benefit.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Conversely I think it's strange that Convalescence is a GLD ability. Think about it, WAR/MRD are the ones that are supposed to require more healing, but the "mitigation tank" (GLD/PLD) is the one that gets the best version of the bonus heals ability?

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I was thinking this too but then on the same note PUG has Mantra which WAR can take. Between Convalescence and Mantra WAR isn't left out of the dust on this.
Yoshi did say you gotta sub-class the WAR didn't he?

As a dedicated WAR (short on RL time); I prize skill speed over critical any and every day. Yes Critical generates more enmity; more absorbs; more POP; but it's a rate-sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't. However you reduce the time you take to land a hit that will automatically increase overall dmg over time; speed up vital rotations.

My current Skill Speed with Eft steak HQ is 2.39; saves almost a second off 5 Wrath build. Hoping one day to get that baby down to a 2.2!!!

Image: 17.6 5 Wrath build.

"Warrior class is for those that want to show off" - Yoshi P.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/95010-WARRIOR-Tips-Tricks

Not sure I understand the players here. Developer states that there is nothing wrong with War.. Yet people come to the forums claiming its irrelevant in all end game.

Have you considered that the issue is you and not the game?

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Originally Posted by Lhun

have fun being bad at the game, "Buff warrior!!" saber rattlers. you're obviously not going to figure out what YoshiP and his devs are saying this way. Thanks for reminding me why I kept my mouth shut on this forum for three years.

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says the warrior in af with Barbarian's Bardiche and lv 28 ring

you dont even have a single piece of AK gear
you have only 4200 HP

and ya, your lv28 ring is a HQ, ill give your credit on that.

I am sorry but Lhun and the rest of you guys thinking Warriors are fine are ignorant.
Sorry, math does not lie.
only thing a WArrior has to his name is enmity generation.
Nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Raiz_Cineris

Not sure I understand the players here. Developer states that there is nothing wrong with War.. Yet people come to the forums claiming its irrelevant in all end game. Have you considered that the issue is you and not the game?

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You will feel the issue once you hit 50 and go Titan.

Do you think a Healer feels if Warrior use Bloodbath (wich heals us about 40-100 PER HIT) or StormsPath (wich heals us 100-150 all 9sec) or our mighty Inner Beast (we Need 18sec to stack 5 Wrath, and it heals us 800-2000 depends how much other Abilities we want to spend for it and a "big" heal ist only all 2min possible).
Fact is, the Healer will feel a shit about our selfheal.
But the Healer will feel the dmg reduce from Paladin, (besides 20% dmg reduce from Tank stance) 20%/40%/100% dmg reduce, 60% more Shieldblock Chance (Block = 20-24% dmg reduce)

Titan hugs the Tank with 1000-2500 Normalo hits, and sometimes 4500.

Warrior Need tons of tons more Heals then a Paladin, thats why alot Warrior are upset here, because it cant be, that the Class Warrior itself is just for Addtanking in this Game. Besides also Paladin can Tank Adds, and they are easier to heal.




Trust me, trust us, the Issue is the game more exactly the Balance between Warrior and Paladin Tank.

No, but a Healer does care about 25% more HP and 15% more healing received.
25% more HP= can take 25% more damage. Meaning your healer has more time to heal you.
15% more healing is similar to 20% more mitigation since it takes less heals to top you off.

The issue, however, is that Gladiator has the following.
More effective HP; due to having more mitigation than 25% more HP and 15% more healing offers a Warrior.
More effective cooldowns.
More utility.
Roughly the same damage.
Slightly less enmity generation but who cares, when you have agro, you have agro and more does nothing.

So...either Gladiators are overpowered, or Warriors are underpowered.
Take your pick.

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Originally Posted by hola

says the warrior in af with Barbarian's Bardiche and lv 28 ring

you dont even have a single piece of AK gear
you have only 4200 HP

and ya, your lv28 ring is a HQ, ill give your credit on that.

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I forgot to update my gearslot save. So sue me, and again, I hit 50 on this character yesterday. My stats are woefully derped because I've been CRUNCHING NUMBERS ALL WEEK and re-speccing. And it's a Barbarian's Bardiche +1, tyvm, I haven't had time to go do HMPrimals because I've been arguing with you lot all week. It has a parry rate of 25, which is more than an NQ Rampager, and I can't find an HQ one right now for a reasonable price. I also haven't had time to level crafting and make one myself.

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

You will feel the issue once you hit 50 and go Titan.

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You're ignoring parry and the fact that war receives more health from cure itself.

Have you parsed the exact total damage received over the course of a fight with a warrior with a high parry rate and str over 362? Have you considered that the potency of a heal is massively increased on a War vs a pld, that I almost suspect the mitigation would nearly exactly equal the increased heal totals to a war?

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Um, Convalesence + wrath + MANTRA. HElllooooo...

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mantra is 5% so... yea

Anyhow

Um, Enhanced Convalesence + holy shield + ability to block is BETTER. HElllooooo...

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Originally Posted by Leiron

No, but a Healer does care about 25% more HP and 15% more healing received.
25% more HP= can take 25% more damage. Meaning your healer has more time to heal you.
15% more healing is similar to 20% more mitigation since it takes less heals to top you off.

The issue, however, is that Gladiator has the following.
More effective HP; due to having more mitigation than 25% more HP and 15% more healing offers a Warrior.
More effective cooldowns.
More utility.
Roughly the same damage.
Slightly less enmity generation but who cares, when you have agro, you have agro and more does nothing.

So...either Gladiators are overpowered, or Warriors are underpowered.
Take your pick.

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15% is from Wrath alone. We also get Convalescence and mantra.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

mantra is 5% so... yea

Anyhow

Um, Enhanced Convalesence + holy shield + ability to block is BETTER. HElllooooo...

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I guess that parry+# stat on all our gear does nothing. ... ........

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Originally Posted by Lhun

have fun being bad at the game, "Buff warrior!!" saber rattlers. you're obviously not going to figure out what YoshiP and his devs are saying this way. Thanks for reminding me why I kept my mouth shut on this forum for three years.

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Where is your quote coming from? Who is the quoted?

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Originally Posted by Leiron

I am sorry but Lhun and the rest of you guys thinking Warriors are fine are ignorant.
Sorry, math does not lie.
only thing a WArrior has to his name is enmity generation.
Nothing more.

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Math doesn't lie, but it doesn't mean it can't be wrong. The math is only as good as the person crunching the numbers and this thread has seen its fair share of mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

You're ignoring parry and the fact that war receives more health from cure itself.
Have you parsed the exact total damage received over the course of a fight with a warrior with a high parry rate and str over 362? Have you considered that the potency of a heal is massively increased on a War vs a pld, that I almost suspect the mitigation would nearly exactly equal the increased heal totals to a war?

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even if you doubles the dmg from Warrior, Bloodbatz will heal us 80-200 per hit (most of the time 80-120) and Stormspath heals us for 200-300 all 9 sec.

Thats way to low. turn it how you want, Warriors selfheal is just a joke to conter incoming dmg compared to the dmg reduce wich Paladin have.

And i tested it, atm i got 20 Vit 10 str, some days ago i tested it with 30str, the dmg wasnt a big deal, some Points more, and also the Selfheal increased some Points. still way to low.

and aslong Selfheal will be about "%dmg done" it will always suck, it should be "%max HP", cuz, from Frsh 50 to now, my HP increased from 5xxx to 6800. but my dmg did NOT increased that much.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

I guess that parry+# stat on all our gear does nothing. ... ........

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You realize PLD can parry too, right? Block vs. Parry isn't an either or thing, WAR get parry, PLD get block + parry. They could gear for parry if they felt like it.

Either way, lets just say you ignore the additional baseline mitigation afforded by block. Enhanced Convalescence + Shield Oath (sorry, not Holy Shield) blows Convalescence + wrath + mantra out of the water. It's over 50% more effective and you don't even have to bother with wrath stacks or slotting and using 2 cross class abilities.

This is also ignoring rage of halone which makes Convalescence even MORE effective against STR based enemies.

Has anyone tried stacking skill speed, aka using the Rings of Maiming instead of fending? I admit, my maths is not the best, which is why I'd like to see if others have tried it and have managed it and if it works well.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

15% is from Wrath alone. We also get Convalescence and mantra.

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Shield oath is equivalent to 15% healing from Wrath by itself, and it has 100% maintenance time.
Paladins get a 30% convalescence compared to your 20%
Mantra is the only fair argument but again, overhealing is wasted healing.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

You're ignoring parry and the fact that war receives more health from cure itself.

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Parry is universal and on Gladiator gear.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

damage stuff

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The damage from a Marauder is about equivalent to that of a Paladin in equal gear/stats.
Furthermore, Paladin gets parry as well.
To add onto this, yes, you are correct.


15% from wrath = 20% from shield oath.
The thing is, you have to give up wrath to do Inner Beast, and Warriors do not have block, and do not have the same amount of emergency cooldowns.
Mitigation is NEVER wasted.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Has anyone tried stacking skill speed, aka using the Rings of Maiming instead of fending? I admit, my maths is not the best, which is why I'd like to see if others have tried it and have managed it and if it works well.

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go look up HiirNoivl's post history, he's done a lot of experimenting with skill speed and SCH ability to boost skill speed. Skill speed was his last "y'all doin it wrong, you should be doing XYZ" series of posts. Now he's moved onto +crit, presumably because skill speed still wasn't the magic bullet we've been looking for.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Shield oath is equivalent to 15% healing from Wrath by itself, and it has 100% maintenance time.

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Actually it's not. Shield Oath is equal to 25% extra healing. So, Shield oath is equivalent to full Wrath stacks and another bonus 10% on top of that.

What's even better is how it stacks with something like Convalescence. It's a multiplicative effect, so it's not just 30% bonus heals, it's something like 62% more effective healing received compared to not using convalescence or shield oath. Neat, huh?

Oh, and yea, also that 100% maintenance time thing

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Math doesn't lie, but it doesn't mean it can't be wrong. The math is only as good as the person crunching the numbers and this thread has seen its fair share of mistakes.

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It has, but they have been minor andnot changed the fact that Warriors are quite a bit behind right now.
The issue is just that, the healers in this game CANNOT top off a tank instantly.
If this were a game where Healer's were very powerful, Warriors would be just as good a tank as a Paladin, but they really aren't unfortunately.


@giantbane: Where are you getting the idea that its equivalent to 25% extra healing? Oh wait I see what you mean, since it takes 25% longer for you to die.
The thing is I would not quite say that it is a fair assessment.
Keep in mind, Warrior has both 25% HP buff and the 15% healing buff.
So in reality, the eHP of a Warrior is around 45% or so.

Warriors and Paladins would be perfectly balanced if this was the ONLY area in which they differed, and if Bosses were not fights of attrition.
I don't know, it genuinely feels like SE planned around a different context for Warriors than Paladin.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

It has, but they have been minor andnot changed the fact that Warriors are quite a bit behind right now.
The issue is just that, the healers in this game CANNOT top off a tank instantly.
If this were a game where Healer's were very powerful, Warriors would be just as good a tank as a Paladin, but they really aren't unfortunately.

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Very true, I should have been a bit more clear.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

@giantbane: Where are you getting the idea that its equivalent to 25% extra healing? Oh wait I see what you mean, since it takes 25% longer for you to die.
The thing is I would not quite say that it is a fair assessment.
Keep in mind, Warrior has both 25% HP buff and the 15% healing buff.
So in reality, the eHP of a Warrior is around 45% or so.

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no

A war takes 1000 hit, a pld will take a 800 hit instead.
A war now needs to be healed for 1000, while the pld only needs to be healed for 800.
A war needs more than 1000 hp to take that hit, while a pld only needs more than 800 hp to take that hit.

Notice how in all circumstances, the damage taken by the war, the healing required and the hp needed to take that hit are all 25% higher for the WAR than the PLD. That's how that works. A WAR needs 25% more HP and requires 25% more healing than a PLD baseline (without taking into account anything else).

Defiance provides that 25% more HP, but only provides 15% more healing received (when wrath is maxed). It appears the design is for the WAR to close that gap with the ability to self heal while tanking. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to do a very good job closing that gap when you're in the top tier content (and it's debatable at lower tiers when considering equal gear).

And then you have everything else.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Keep in mind, Warrior has both 25% HP buff and the 15% healing buff.
So in reality, the eHP of a Warrior is around 45% or so.

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No, you're doing the math wrong there. On top of that, you're conflating eHP with required external healing.

DR equates to 25% +hp and 25% +healing because the hit points are affected by 20% less damage and healing is acting upon 80% less damage (1/.8 = 1.25).

eHP is only affected by the max hp, since we're talking about *effective* hit points, as in, how many hp you effectively have. +Healing is the equivalent of total mitigation, which references how much external healing you require. As such, WAR and PLD have exactly the same eHP: 20% DR and 25% +hp do the exact same thing. As to end mitigation, PLD is better off because it still has that 20% DR, which is a 25% advantage, whereas WAR has 7-15% +healing (7% if you use IB on CD; 15% if you only use IB with Infuriate), which means that PLD requires 8.7-16.8% less healing.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

gotta save characters.

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Um, no, you misunderstood what I was saying.
Let us say you both have 1k base HP.
You pop defiance for 25% more health.
Paladin pops shield oath.
Now you have incoming damage of 500. Warrior takes all of it, Gladiator takes 400.
They would die in the same amount of time.
Now factor in healing.
You have an incoming heal of 300, Warrior gets 15% more, so they get 345, the Paladin gets only 300.

Note this however, Warrior gets 45 more health back, but takes 100 more damage.
In a war of attrition, mitigation becomes far more important because the healer's cannot keep up with you.

Defiance is a good ability, but it works under a different context.
Defiance assumes that the incoming heals can top you off.
Shield oath assumes that they can't, and can only slow death.

@Kitru: Thank you for the correction. Yeah I was thinking something else at the time.
I genuinely think that if they want to fix Warrior, it needs to have a block mechanic of its own, and perhaps changing Defiance so that stacks are permanent and convey some form of mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Um, no, you misunderstood what I was saying.

etc, etc, etc,

Defiance assumes that the incoming heals can top you off.
Shield oath assumes that they can't, and can only slow death.

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Shield oath doesn't assume anything. In ALL circumstances it is at bare minimum AS effective as Defiance in the amount of damage you take before dying (no heals). Shield Oath is MORE effective than Defiance in that you require less total healing to get back to full hp after you get injured (with heals).

There is no circumstance, no context, no situation that Defiance is better than Shield oath at anything. None.

I don't know how to say it more plainly than that.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

I forgot to update my gearslot save. So sue me, and again, I hit 50 on this character yesterday. My stats are woefully derped because I've been CRUNCHING NUMBERS ALL WEEK and re-speccing. And it's a Barbarian's Bardiche +1, tyvm, I haven't had time to go do HMPrimals because I've been arguing with you lot all week. It has a parry rate of 25, which is more than an NQ Rampager, and I can't find an HQ one right now for a reasonable price. I also haven't had time to level crafting and make one myself.

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firstly
your character's picture in your profile dont lie.

secondly
barbarian's bardiche+1 is almost the same price as the normal version, as its only purpose is to do relic quest.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

I forgot to update my gearslot save. So sue me, and again, I hit 50 on this character yesterday. My stats are woefully derped because I've been CRUNCHING NUMBERS ALL WEEK and re-speccing. And it's a Barbarian's Bardiche +1, tyvm, I haven't had time to go do HMPrimals because I've been arguing with you lot all week. It has a parry rate of 25, which is more than an NQ Rampager, and I can't find an HQ one right now for a reasonable price. I also haven't had time to level crafting and make one myself.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

have fun being bad at the game, "Buff warrior!!" saber rattlers. you're obviously not going to figure out what YoshiP and his devs are saying this way. Thanks for reminding me why I kept my mouth shut on this forum for three years.

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EDIT: I've promised someone not to be mean anymore. But I'll leave the quotes as it is.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

You're ignoring parry and the fact that war receives more health from cure itself.

Have you parsed the exact total damage received over the course of a fight with a warrior with a high parry rate and str over 362? Have you considered that the potency of a heal is massively increased on a War vs a pld, that I almost suspect the mitigation would nearly exactly equal the increased heal totals to a war?

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Are you suggesting theorycrafters, who have been arguing warrior vs paladin for weeks, haven't actually tested any data?

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Um, Convalesence + wrath + MANTRA. HElllooooo...

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LOL, so what you're saying is WAR has to level MNK to 42 and waste a cross-class skill slot to be still worse than PLD without any cross-class skills?

Sounds balanced to me!

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Yes, PLD will always be better at straight up taking a hit. This was how they were designed, it's what makes them a PLD. That does not mean that they are the "best" tank for all situations.

If you define being the "better" tank as being able to straight up mitigate the most damage, then you need to role a PLD, because WAR was not designed that way.

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Yes that is how everyone defines "better" tank. If both can hold aggro then the one that takes less damage is the better tank clearly. Nobody will ever take a warrior when a paladin is available, so good luck finding a raid if you didn't roll the tank class that isn't broken.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Has anyone tried stacking skill speed, aka using the Rings of Maiming instead of fending? I admit, my maths is not the best, which is why I'd like to see if others have tried it and have managed it and if it works well.

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If you pour heart and soul into skill speed, you might be able to shave 0.12 seconds off the GCD or something, at the cost of much more effective stats. It's currently a dead stat except maybe for monks.

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Originally Posted by Thyrllan

Are you suggesting theorycrafters, who have been arguing warrior vs paladin for weeks, haven't actually tested any data?

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I wish they would just find the answer. It's been weeks already! :-P

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Which still puts the str woefully behind warrior.

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You do realize that the summation of the sword's and shield's STR equal that of the axe, and that both PLDs and WARs use the same Darklight and Allaghan armor, right? You're so way off base I don't know if you're being serious or if this is a joke.

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

If you pour heart and soul into skill speed, you might be able to shave 0.12 seconds off the GCD or something, at the cost of much more effective stats. It's currently a dead stat except maybe for monks.

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With enough skill speed you can ensure that your 2nd butcher's block will always benefit from the Storm's Eye debuff.

Without it, in my experience, often the buff will fade before the 2nd burcher's block hits, which is a slight loss of enmity. You should also be able to shave off .1 second from the GCD which is more than enough to do this by simply using Bravura, the Warrior helmet, and the right combination of ilvl 90 jewelry. You may not be able to get to hit cap with this setup, though. I don't remember.

It's not like there are many options for WAR anyway though.