Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

Welp, looks like the premades and pluggins from Aether/Primal/Crystal have finally come to roost on Dynamis Frontlines. It's pretty much free and easy kills because the majority of the people here have literally never done PVP before and aren't using the same "advantages" as the rest, so one would literally be better off "nudging" in the spawn because any attempt to participate is futile at this point if you didn't get put on the immortal team.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Welp, looks like the premades and pluggins from Aether/Primal/Crystal have finally come to roost on Dynamis Frontlines. It's pretty much free and easy kills because the majority of the people here have literally never done PVP before and aren't using the same "advantages" as the rest, so one would literally be better off "nudging" in the spawn because any attempt to participate is futile at this point if you didn't get put on the immortal team.

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The beginning of the cynical Dynamis invasion was announced on Discord just before early release of DT. Apparently premade win-rates there exceed even those we normally see on the more populated NA servers. The matches on Aether have been far more interesting as a result. Sorry you've been subjected to the curbstompers. The whole premade meta is a tedious, one-dimensional playstyle, but it won't persist forever. I'm confident the menace will be removed in 7.1.

Keep in mind that PvP is being designed by the same people Who released various failed iterations of shatter, routinely took over 6 months to make basic changes to frontlines, and generally don't listen to feedback, or thoroughly test changes prior to implementation. I don't think 7.1 will be the salvation to PvP that is frequently expected.

With their track record, I expect them to triple down on Crystaline Conflict and ignore the other two modes until it's absolutely necessary. I don't think they even are aware of premades being an issue, and they're probably oblivious to anything that happens both outside the scope of Crystaline Conflict, and off of the JP data centers.

They need to shut down Frontline if they're not going to do anything about the rampant cheating, bots, and wintrading. This is just pathetic the way SE shits all over it's paying customers.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Keep in mind that PvP is being designed by the same people Who released various failed iterations of shatter, routinely took over 6 months to make basic changes to frontlines, and generally don't listen to feedback, or thoroughly test changes prior to implementation. I don't think 7.1 will be the salvation to PvP that is frequently expected.

With their track record, I expect them to triple down on Crystaline Conflict and ignore the other two modes until it's absolutely necessary. I don't think they even are aware of premades being an issue, and they're probably oblivious to anything that happens both outside the scope of Crystaline Conflict, and off of the JP data centers.

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You give good reasons to be pessimistic. My limited optimism stems from the fact that there's been a trend to eliminate the abuses committed by parties, along with the fact that flipping a switch for the queue parameters is a light lift. Unfortunately other problems require more work.

The major problem I have with them is that PvP requires continous updates. If we look to 6.1 we got a major content dump, and they had a lot of potential "light switch" fixes open to them. They chose not to flip the majority of switches until months, sometimes even years later in the expansion.

7.1 will need to show, not tell. They either implement major changes that rejuvinates PvP, and keep up with minor QoL fixes, (And not just for 5v5 modes), or they let it fester for another 2 years until 8.1. PvP has a lot of potential, I hate to see how much of it they throw away.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

The major problem I have with them is that PvP requires continous updates. If we look to 6.1 we got a major content dump, and they had a lot of potential "light switch" fixes open to them. They chose not to flip the majority of switches until months, sometimes even years later in the expansion.

7.1 will need to show, not tell. They either implement major changes that rejuvinates PvP, and keep up with minor QoL fixes, (And not just for 5v5 modes), or they let it fester for another 2 years until 8.1. PvP has a lot of potential, I hate to see how much of it they throw away.

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Agreed, any meta will get stale if it's solvable. It's doubly unfortunate the current iteration of FL is a one-trick pony.

https://i.imgur.com/4d4GdRV.png

Ended up in a run tonight where people decided to throw the game. The highs are high in the this mode but things like this really make it a crapshoot as to whether or not you're going to have a good time or not.

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Originally Posted by OjiiM

https://i.imgur.com/4d4GdRV.png

Ended up in a run tonight where people decided to throw the game. The highs are high in the this mode but things like this really make it a crapshoot as to whether or not you're going to have a good time or not.

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Always difficult to tell whether the appearance of throwing is simply incompetence. But it does illustrate the problems with mixing people of vastly different skill levels and goals.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The beginning of the cynical Dynamis invasion was announced on Discord just before early release of DT. Apparently premade win-rates there exceed even those we normally see on the more populated NA servers. The matches on Aether have been far more interesting as a result. Sorry you've been subjected to the curbstompers. The whole premade meta is a tedious, one-dimensional playstyle, but it won't persist forever. I'm confident the menace will be removed in 7.1.

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It's gotten to a point where even if I somehow win in Frontlines, I just assume it's because my team had the higher number of premades and plugin users, and in general I now doubt every single win or kill I've ever gotten over the last year and a half because I can't tell which ones I earned legitimately, and which ones were "rigged" for me by others, my own achievements and victories feel tainted because I can't even say they were *mine* and not just handed to me.

I had a similar score in Onsal today, playing on Maelstrom. Flames had a DRK premade, Adders was just a random team. The entire match Adders was constantly hounding us, and attacking us for literally no reason - We didn't throw the game. The other teams threw it for us by forcing us into spending the first 5 minutes of the match brawling on our spawn point. We weren't able to capture anything until the premade finally decided to kill adders.

This is just a massive reason why 1v1v1 on large scale combat is sometimes a Very bad idea. The other two teams dictate whether or not you can win, and they can sabotage you as they please. The real throwing isn't going to come from people on your team, its from the other two teams deciding to single you out sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

It's gotten to a point where even if I somehow win in Frontlines, I just assume it's because my team had the higher number of premades and plugin users, and in general I now doubt every single win or kill I've ever gotten over the last year and a half because I can't tell which ones I earned legitimately, and which ones were "rigged" for me by others, my own achievements and victories feel tainted because I can't even say they were *mine* and not just handed to me.

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100% agree. It's massively demotivational.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

This is just a massive reason why 1v1v1 on large scale combat is sometimes a Very bad idea. The other two teams dictate whether or not you can win, and they can sabotage you as they please. The real throwing isn't going to come from people on your team, its from the other two teams deciding to single you out sometimes.

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I enjoy the 3-way format, but would definitely like to see team size reduced. It also seems SQEX is living in a pre-Discord fantasy world and fail to appreciate how cross-team voice can completely destroy the integrity of the mode. This has even been a problem on JP servers where, by folklore at least, people are supposedly playing for competition rather than wins.

The only way to fix frontlines is to reduce the player count to 8 players per team as of right now you can't balance these matches with 72 players in it.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

It's gotten to a point where even if I somehow win in Frontlines, I just assume it's because my team had the higher number of premades and plugin users, and in general I now doubt every single win or kill I've ever gotten over the last year and a half because I can't tell which ones I earned legitimately, and which ones were "rigged" for me by others, my own achievements and victories feel tainted because I can't even say they were *mine* and not just handed to me.

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I speak on the side of people that daily play frontline as a premade: One of the biggest misconceptions about premades is that it's even needed at all to win a game. The cooperation and teamwork of a team, as well as rng, own this game mode. If i solo queued into a game and decided to command, and I had people who want to move as a team and attack as a team, then it'd virtually be no difference. I won't deny the 4-man comp of drk/ast/drg/etc. metas are abused, but team work can actually make the dream work *sometimes.* A group of 4 people can come in and do a lot of damage and knockouts, yes, but they won't always win the game. To say that the presence of a premade in your team is rigged towards your success is ridiculous. My premade can go and do 1 million damage on a team and still lose because the rest of our team could be hitting the team in 3rd place, the nodes are in our spawn and both teams are on us, or even something like our premade itself isn't even doing so well.

To even mention plugin use to win games is even more ridiculous. I don't know anyone personally who uses plugins or cheats or whatever you think they use but if you can show me who is using and what they use, I'd definitely like to know them and report them. I do want to point out too that the in-game macro function is a tool that helps A LOT!!! LIKE A LOT A LOT!!!!
Did you know that if you make a macro that goes:
/wmarkb <bind3>
It'll place a waymarker directly on the the person that is marked with the bind 3 marker. It works really well considering that it still places the marker as long as that person is in render distance. So if you have a pesky dark knight commander on the enemy team you can put a bind 3 marker on them and if they're close, the map will tell you where they are. I know I use it.

First and foremost, I want to start off by saying that I read through a good portion of the complaints, and some of them are somewhat valid complaints. It is definitely a problem with the community abusing power and queue. As a premade player myself, I only play with my friends, I do not do large scale syncs it is what undoubtedly ruined aether. As for 4-man premades, a lot of the criticism that is being shared isn't even 50% of the matches I play with my premade. The vast majority of the games we play is our team running it down most of the game and losing us 400-900 points. When we do have great matches, it's when people listen to calls, the premade is mainly for support of the commander. A lot of premades, I would say around 70-80% does not have a commander, just a dark knight and pad group. I do think however the unwillingness of the community to push teamwork concepts is the biggest issue. Additionally, we had 8v8v8 with full-party premades, we also had non-aoe meta where every job could do enough damage to get picks. All of this was removed to make PvP more casual, what you are currently experiencing is the Developers choice of making the game too easy. Where there is competition, you will always find people abusing the best strats and comps regardless of what game. Also, I have not seen any cheaters aside from a player that used to play on primal, premades throwing is common because of the fragile egos, and the unwillingness to take viable criticism, bming and griefing KO'd bodies happens often as well. As far as plugins, I do not currently know any frontline plugins that is being used by premades or players that gives a significant advantage. I do know of a lot of macros that are quality of life. I feel like anyone cheating would be easy to detect especially by the everyday players.

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Originally Posted by Xael_Jehuty

I speak on the side of people that daily play frontline as a premade: One of the biggest misconceptions about premades is that it's even needed at all to win a game. The cooperation and teamwork of a team, as well as rng, own this game mode. If i solo queued into a game and decided to command, and I had people who want to move as a team and attack as a team, then it'd virtually be no difference. I won't deny the 4-man comp of drk/ast/drg/etc. metas are abused, but team work can actually make the dream work *sometimes.* A group of 4 people can come in and do a lot of damage and knockouts, yes, but they won't always win the game. To say that the presence of a premade in your team is rigged towards your success is ridiculous. My premade can go and do 1 million damage on a team and still lose because the rest of our team could be hitting the team in 3rd place, the nodes are in our spawn and both teams are on us, or even something like our premade itself isn't even doing so well.

To even mention plugin use to win games is even more ridiculous. I don't know anyone personally who uses plugins or cheats or whatever you think they use but if you can show me who is using and what they use, I'd definitely like to know them and report them. I do want to point out too that the in-game macro function is a tool that helps A LOT!!! LIKE A LOT A LOT!!!!
Did you know that if you make a macro that goes:
/wmarkb <bind3>
It'll place a waymarker directly on the the person that is marked with the bind 3 marker. It works really well considering that it still places the marker as long as that person is in render distance. So if you have a pesky dark knight commander on the enemy team you can put a bind 3 marker on them and if they're close, the map will tell you where they are. I know I use it.

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The number of conditional statements in the first part of your post illustrate why it is disingenuous. See also: premade win-rates. We need to live in the real world, friend.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

The only way to fix frontlines is to reduce the player count to 8 players per team as of right now you can't balance these matches with 72 players in it.

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Removing 8v8v8 Frontline is the worst thing that has ever happened to PVP.

Let me add, since the Aether premades invaded Dynamis, matches on Aether have simply been more competitive and enjoyable. People have actually hung out in chat afterwards discussing a great comeback. Sometimes even key strategic events are discussed!!! And this to me is the fundamental problem with well-organized premades. They invariably create dull matches where most players simply want them to be over as quickly as possible.

I understand, although disagree with, the observation that "the point of the game is to win, thus using the tools available is what people *should* be doing." The devs have created yet another situation where Discord cliques can gain a massive advantage simply using the rules of the game. The question is whether this is desirable, particularly in a "fun, casual" mode?

To me, the answer is an unambiguous "no," although I am agnostic on whether this is addressed through banning premades, queue separation, or a matchmaking algorithm so that premades can test their wits against other FL geniuses, and the rest of us can be left in peace to actually enjoy ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The number of conditional statements in the first part of your post illustrate why it is disingenuous. See also: premade win-rates. We need to live in the real world, friend.

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Of course premades happen to win more often. When you have a team already working together you're more likely to win the team based gamemode. Regardless, they are not THE deciding factor of a victory. Every win from a premade isn't an absolute blow out of a game. Although it happens, we can't say that every game a premade has played isn't hard fought or close in score.

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Originally Posted by Xael_Jehuty

Of course premades happen to win more often. When you have a team already working together you're more likely to win the team based gamemode. Regardless, they are not THE deciding factor of a victory. Every win from a premade isn't an absolute blow out of a game. Although it happens, we can't say that every game a premade has played isn't hard fought or close in score.

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100% agree. The funny thing there is, given the win-rates you guys report, can you imagine how much higher they would be without RNG (both spawn and team composition)? I'm actually worried SQEX - who are aware of the problem - will attempt to solve it through greater RNG. Nobody wants that, right?

I've played in plenty of games when the premade doesn't win, or the match is simply close despite a premade presence. I'll admit I get a certain satisfaction when I see one of the notorious premades get beat, but the dominant experience is still one of tedium produced by the DRK+ premade playstyle. I'm not blaming you and yours for that, simply lobbying SQEX to fix the mess they created. I'd like to live in a FF14 in which "Frontlines is sh1t" was no longer the dominant view of the mode.

Side point: I have no direct evidence that people are using plugins to gain an advantage. That said, you and I both know people who use banned parsing mods. I don't worry about them since they offer no competitive edge. But given the monomania to get a damn ugly coat, I don't think it's an unreasonable extrapolation to assume there are some players using plugins that do produce a competitive advantage. People have presented evidence for such on YT, but my ignorance of how such things work mean I can't comment on the reliability of that information.

https://i.imgur.com/xJ3yOSO.png

Someone tell me again with a straight face that "premades don't make a difference". Someone tell me again that "cheating doesn't exist".

I have not in my entire time of playing Frontlines seen a match end *this* quickly or the scores so astronomically lopsided. And the worst part is I'M TRAPPED HERE BECAUSE OF THE BLOODY DYNAMIS LOCKDOWN. Dear friggin' god... all of us pretty much just stood and waited in the spawn while red finished destroying our big ice for their ill-gotten win because there was literally no point in trying anymore. Two minutes of mass-nudging around to avoid a kick, while blue futility tried to fight them anyway (and at which point red won on kills and didn't need the big ice after all).

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

https://i.imgur.com/xJ3yOSO.png

Someone tell me again with a straight face that "premades don't make a difference". Someone tell me again that "cheating doesn't exist".

I have not in my entire time of playing Frontlines seen a match end *this* quickly or the scores so astronomically lopsided. And the worst part is I'M TRAPPED HERE BECAUSE OF THE BLOODY DYNAMIS LOCKDOWN. Dear friggin' god... all of us pretty much just stood and waited in the spawn while red finished destroying our big ice for their ill-gotten win because there was literally no point in trying anymore. Two minutes of mass-nudging around to avoid a kick, while blue futility tried to fight them anyway (and at which point red won on kills and didn't need the big ice after all).

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Scores more lopsided than that have been reported in this thread, but yeah it sucks. Particularly since you're stuck where most of the premades are currently farming. Unfortunately, Shatter is by far the most predictable map in terms of spawns, to the point it feels scripted when a premade is taking advantage of the fact. Tedious, unimaginative, and worst of all IMO, imposed by a small group of people who think they know better than everyone else. But it's a playstyle that contains within it the seeds of its own destruction.

Tick tock.

FL should be 1v1 teams and you shouldn't get exp or any rewards if you lose. That will encourage people to either learn how to PVP of they're just wasting their time. Premades aren't the issue, the issue is the clueless people they feast off of. This would make it very clear to people that you had better show up to play or just f off. Not every game mode is for everyone or needs to be accessible to everyone. The rest of the game is cooperative and not very difficult, if people aren't good with punishing poor performance they can go do literally anything else.

If you're going to allow premades (which I'm ok with) then encourage them as much as possible. The people everyone love to complain about will likely quickly lose interest once they see they're facing stiff competition every match. Which is what PVP should entail.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Scores more lopsided than that have been reported in this thread, but yeah it sucks. Particularly since you're stuck where most of the premades are currently farming. Unfortunately, Shatter is by far the most predictable map in terms of spawns, to the point it feels scripted when a premade is taking advantage of the fact. Tedious, unimaginative, and worst of all IMO, imposed by a small group of people who think they know better than everyone else. But it's a playstyle that contains within it the seeds of its own destruction.

Tick tock.

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At this point I'm tired of trying just to lose, and even if (not when, *if*) I win, there's no satisfaction in that either because I know with 100% certainty that it was due to RNG giving me the most people in a premade and/or using plugins. Effort and skill are a myth, and sportsmanship and competition were left for dead in a ditch years ago apparently. I'm done giving a damn, I'm just going to show up for the XP and series progress and wait for the outcome to be decided for me.

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Originally Posted by DallsBeep

FL should be 1v1 teams and you shouldn't get exp or any rewards if you lose. That will encourage people to either learn how to PVP of they're just wasting their time. Premades aren't the issue, the issue is the clueless people they feast off of. This would make it very clear to people that you had better show up to play or just f off. Not every game mode is for everyone or needs to be accessible to everyone. The rest of the game is cooperative and not very difficult, if people aren't good with punishing poor performance they can go do literally anything else.

If you're going to allow premades (which I'm ok with) then encourage them as much as possible. The people everyone love to complain about will likely quickly lose interest once they see they're facing stiff competition every match. Which is what PVP should entail.

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What a terrible take, nobody would play this if it was 1v1. Get lucky and you'll stomp the other team. Frontline is alive only because people can just tag and get easy xp while not caring much because it's 1v1v1. Yes games are at an all time low right now and people have never been so, so bad because literally everyone is leveling up. But it'd much, much worse with 1v1, especially when suddenly you'll be more inclined to hold people accountable. In a 1v1v1 you can always use the third team to your advantage, in the worst case scenario.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

https://i.imgur.com/xJ3yOSO.png

Someone tell me again with a straight face that "premades don't make a difference". Someone tell me again that "cheating doesn't exist".

I have not in my entire time of playing Frontlines seen a match end *this* quickly or the scores so astronomically lopsided. And the worst part is I'M TRAPPED HERE BECAUSE OF THE BLOODY DYNAMIS LOCKDOWN. Dear friggin' god... all of us pretty much just stood and waited in the spawn while red finished destroying our big ice for their ill-gotten win because there was literally no point in trying anymore. Two minutes of mass-nudging around to avoid a kick, while blue futility tried to fight them anyway (and at which point red won on kills and didn't need the big ice after all).

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Premades make a difference, especially right now when people are so bad, but it's 1000% more an issue of this absolute atrocity of a map.

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Originally Posted by DallsBeep

FL should be 1v1 teams and you shouldn't get exp or any rewards if you lose. That will encourage people to either learn how to PVP of they're just wasting their time. Premades aren't the issue, the issue is the clueless people they feast off of. This would make it very clear to people that you had better show up to play or just f off. Not every game mode is for everyone or needs to be accessible to everyone. The rest of the game is cooperative and not very difficult, if people aren't good with punishing poor performance they can go do literally anything else.

If you're going to allow premades (which I'm ok with) then encourage them as much as possible. The people everyone love to complain about will likely quickly lose interest once they see they're facing stiff competition every match. Which is what PVP should entail.

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In 1v1 BH would snowball far quicker than it does now, further exaggerating any a priori skill difference between the two teams. And if it remained 24-person teams, you'd still get the inept registering for it because their contribution would be irrelevant and they'd win 50% of the time anyway. If the winning team only gets rewards and XP, I think most rouletters irrespective of how weak/disinterested they are would still queue in.

I completely agree PvP should be about stiff competition, but with such large teams with no matchmaking algorithm I don't believe your model would discourage players "just here for the XP" from playing. The people being driven out currently are those who like PvP and attempt to be good at it, but dislike playing with or against premades who diminish their agency. I do agree that the last thing most premades want is stiff competition; the majority are simply reward farmers, padders and curbstompers, as a cursory glance at their Discord servers reveals.

I actually regard this as a social media problem as much as a FL one. The bubble communities where the premades form are largely disconnected from the broader and much larger FL community. Moreover, definitionally, they can never play against themselves. Consequently they have very little idea of how disliked they are, other than the pushback they receive from players on their own team who find their presence boring, and who didn't queue in to be ordered around by an aggressive commander.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Premades make a difference, especially right now when people are so bad, but it's 1000% more an issue of this absolute atrocity of a map.

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this is definitely the case, it also doesn't help that most of the roulette-only pvp players just sit around licking ice with 0 peripheral vision of the oh-so-skilled DRK trains coming to press their skillful 3 button aoe bonanzas.

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Originally Posted by saucyshortcake

this is definitely the case, it also doesn't help that most of the roulette-only pvp players just sit around licking ice with 0 peripheral vision of the oh-so-skilled DRK trains coming to press their skillful 3 button aoe bonanzas.

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Yeah it's no coincidence that the only people I have heard saying they like this version of Shatter are premade commanders. The map lay-out plays into their hands through predictable spawns, then they know where a herd of weak players will be standing paying no attention to incoming threats.

I would be so interested to see what happens if you switch the objectives on Onsal and Seal. Scrap Shatter and have a 4-day rotation with each using their original objectives, then swapping.

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Originally Posted by Teno

What a terrible take, nobody would play this if it was 1v1.

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lol What? The number of teams involved in the match does not figure into whether people play or not. Most people just play for the exp and the PVP community wants it treated like an actual PVP mode when it isn't it's just an exp farm. And I'm telling you one method you could do to treat it like a PVP mode. If you're going to keep rewarding mediocrity in this mode to such an extent..loads of mediocre players will continue to participate. Until you address that problem then there's no point in wanting this mode to be competitive because it never will be.

I think what you meant to say but for some reason didn't, is that nobody is going to queue up if their exp isn't assured. There are already people who run premades all night over getting some lame achievements how much more so will people run premades all night if it's over exp. What it accomplishes is leveling the playing field which solves literally every issue people have with his mode. You can either continue to cater to the PVE'er who's levelling up his 11th class and has no idea what he's doing or cater to PVP'ers. Pick one.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The people being driven out currently are those who like PvP and attempt to be good at it, but dislike playing with or against premades who diminish their agency.

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Yeah you're right about that. In my case, if I'm playing FL it's just because I want to level some class, which isn't often I'm pretty retired from PVE and only run CC now. And you agreed earlier in your post that if these premades were actually facing players prepared for them then they wouldn't care for it and would lose interest. So it seems clear to me, you either don't allow or disincentivize premades or you do the same with their fodder, one side of the food chain has to go or it'll just continue being a parasitic relationship. I think that's pretty gross to have as a game mode but that's essentially what we have.

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Originally Posted by DallsBeep

Yeah you're right about that. In my case, if I'm playing FL it's just because I want to level some class, which isn't often I'm pretty retired from PVE and only run CC now. And you agreed earlier in your post that if these premades were actually facing players prepared for them then they wouldn't care for it and would lose interest. So it seems clear to me, you either don't allow or disincentivize premades or you do the same with their fodder, one side of the food chain has to go or it'll just continue being a parasitic relationship. I think that's pretty gross to have as a game mode but that's essentially what we have.

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It's why I've come round to the idea of a matchmaking algorithm, but I think then the queues only pop if you reduce team size. But yeah, I agree with you. Having apex predators feeding on herbivores isn't PvP.

Ugh, no, if there were zero rewards for losing, the mode would likely die overnight or become a walled off clubhouse with only a few dozen members, because the main reason most people queue now is because there's a consolation prize at least for being stomped by premades and cheaters. Likewise, said premades and cheaters would either hate to be put up against their own "kind" and end up queue-dodging/throwing, or they would love it because it would make it super easy to coordinate win-trading when it's only ever the same 70+ players showing up each time on each data center. At that point it wouldn't be catering to PVE or PVP players, but rather just giving up and officially handing these self-ordained rulers exclusive rights to an entire mode.

I know I certainly wouldn't bother to queue anymore, as winning would still be reliant on RNG I can't control, but now losing would be even more grueling and frustrating, and that's assuming the rulers "allowed" me to participate at all because again, it would be way too easy to coordinate with their own and "push out" anyone they don't like or doesn't fall in line with their methods, and suddenly 1v1v1 has become 1v71.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Ugh, no, if there were zero rewards for losing, the mode would likely die overnight or become a walled off clubhouse with only a few dozen members, because the main reason most people queue now is because there's a consolation prize at least for being stomped by premades and cheaters. Likewise, said premades and cheaters would either hate to be put up against their own "kind" and end up queue-dodging/throwing, or they would love it because it would make it super easy to coordinate win-trading when it's only ever the same 70+ players showing up each time on each data center. At that point it wouldn't be catering to PVE or PVP players, but rather just giving up and officially handing these self-ordained rulers exclusive rights to an entire mode.

I know I certainly wouldn't bother to queue anymore, as winning would still be reliant on RNG I can't control, but now losing would be even more grueling and frustrating, and that's assuming the rulers "allowed" me to participate at all because again, it would be way too easy to coordinate with their own and "push out" anyone they don't like or doesn't fall in line with their methods, and suddenly 1v1v1 has become 1v71.

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So a PVP mode needs people who can't and/or aren't interested in PVP to survive? If the population of PVPers is so small and irrelevant that a few small parties can completely dominate the matchmaking without anyone to oppose them, then they deserve the benefits of being dominant. I for one think it's just dumb anyways to separate PVP from PVE entirely and going as far as making the abilities and gameplay completely detached and still rewarding players with PVE experience when they weren't doing anything even remotely related to their PVE class. There are plenty of ways in this game to max out a class, it isn't particularly difficult or time consuming, it's something you can just do entirely by accident. So we really NEED FL and CC to give PVE experience? Nah I don't think so, I don't even think it's even logical. Make PVP rewards separate and remove the PVE element entirely. If a "small group of people" still dominate particular game modes, then they win. Get some PVPers to oppose them then. It's far better than asking a bunch of people who don't even care about PVP to substantiate the mode's existence by essentially bribing them to keep it relevant.

If you NEED turbo casuals in the mode and insist that we must keep aforementioned bribe in play, then just accept that people who know what they're doing are going to continually exploit and crush them due to their naivety. I really don't know what you were expecting to happen when mixing those elements lol

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Originally Posted by DallsBeep

So a PVP mode needs people who can't and/or aren't interested in PVP to survive? If the population of PVPers is so small and irrelevant that a few small parties can completely dominate the matchmaking without anyone to oppose them, then they deserve the benefits of being dominant.

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You seem to be under the mistaken belief that the ones dominating (or dictating rather, they make the rules for the mode and not Square-Enix) do so based on talent or skill when that's highly debatable for an untold amount of them, or that the key to making PVP "better" is to evolve it from toxic to downright radioactive.

All you're asking for is a different but equally awful clown fiesta where the premade and plugin use would remain rampant if not escalate because those groups don't want competition, they want to be spoon-fed, as evident by how they conduct themselves right now, including the part where they specifically came to Dynamis for quicker leveling (something you think they're not interested in using the mode for) because they're guaranteed to win against a data center full of people who are just now stepping into PVP for the first time to level as well (doubly so for the 4 new servers) because the queues before were so bad, most never bothered with it at all until Dawntrail (or in my case, I data center traveled when it was still allowed). Ironically, removing XP for the loser (which I assume includes 3rd *and* 2nd place) would see the newer folks clearing out and writing off the entire mode, and the exclusive club just win-trading with each other for the 1st place rewards until they hit 100 on everything (and then stay to max out their series rewards if they haven't already).

So the PVE folks don't even show up anymore, and the PVP folks don't even seriously fight (or fight at all). At that junction the mode might as well be removed entirely because it failed to provide any sort of meaningful content for anyone, and it's not even an outlandish idea either because they've patched out PVP modes before. At best, they leave it but abandon it entirely like they did Rival Wings, while likely removing maps and the roulette bonus from it, if not nerf rewards completely, to discourage exploitation. With little to gain and nobody to decimate, I doubt the queue for it would ever pop again outside of mogtomes events, assuming they bothered to include it much like how Crystaline Conflict is made to sit those out.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that the ones dominating (or dictating rather, they make the rules for the mode and not Square-Enix) do so based on talent or skill

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I don't think so buddy, I've made it abundantly clear how I believe they're doing it, they're fed an endless supply of transient casual players to abuse. That's 100% how they're doing it lmao The rest of your post is just pure what-if's and conjecture. Yes I'm completely sure removing PVE exp from a PVP game mode is going to render it insanely crazy toxic, that's quite a leap there. You PVP to PVP, if you're just there for the rewards and you're not going to l2p and contribute, it's no different than showing up to a high tier raid and expecting to roll when you weren't geared for it and didn't understand the mechs and spent the whole fight dead. That's something you have to pay other players to do for you in an MMO. Why all of a sudden in PVP we have this mentality that we have to just toss out rewards to people who don't actually engage with the content in a way that you know, merits the reward? PVE'ers are just as toxic and non-inclusive when it comes to something as petty as a normal dungeon run. They complain over lots of things that costs them mere seconds. So, no, I'm not being unduly harsh to small woodland creatures or anything.

What is it you're asking for exactly? Except for obviously the removal of an obstacle that's standing between you and FL wins. Irrespective of how "cheap" or "unskilled" it might be, that's literally all I can attribute to your posts in essence. "I want to win"..well..so do the people who queue together in pre-mades, what makes your desire for W's in PVP more important than theirs?

idk to me frontline is that one funny free xp roulette and I don't see them touching it soon. Zerg train vs Zerg train mode rarely feel balanced in pvp.

How about give people a reason to learn instead of stripping rewards entirely from the losing teams? The only thing you'll accomplish with that sort of system is the system collasping on itself. You get rid of those that are bad. Them someone within the remaining group must now become a baddie. Games start to get sweaty, and constant sweaty games aren't fun forcing more to back away until the mode is dead entirely. Very horrible idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DallsBeep

So a PVP mode needs people who can't and/or aren't interested in PVP to survive? If the population of PVPers is so small and irrelevant that a few small parties can completely dominate the matchmaking without anyone to oppose them, then they deserve the benefits of being dominant. I for one think it's just dumb anyways to separate PVP from PVE entirely and going as far as making the abilities and gameplay completely detached and still rewarding players with PVE experience when they weren't doing anything even remotely related to their PVE class. There are plenty of ways in this game to max out a class, it isn't particularly difficult or time consuming, it's something you can just do entirely by accident. So we really NEED FL and CC to give PVE experience? Nah I don't think so, I don't even think it's even logical. Make PVP rewards separate and remove the PVE element entirely. If a "small group of people" still dominate particular game modes, then they win. Get some PVPers to oppose them then. It's far better than asking a bunch of people who don't even care about PVP to substantiate the mode's existence by essentially bribing them to keep it relevant.

If you NEED turbo casuals in the mode and insist that we must keep aforementioned bribe in play, then just accept that people who know what they're doing are going to continually exploit and crush them due to their naivety. I really don't know what you were expecting to happen when mixing those elements lol

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its hard to care about a mode when the developpers of the game don't give a f about