Who raised this guy? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Hakmatic
Jk, wb.
How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm
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01-31-2016, 02:09 PMHulveinBlitz
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02-01-2016, 12:07 AMMiniTyra
Btw, Jack. Seeing as you have a Bachelors in Mathematics, "Dervy", tehehe, has a problem and he'd like your advice on how to reverse engineer it. It's in regards to the true function of WD/DET, and the linearity of Strength. He's found something rather interesting over the past few weeks.
You're welcome to contact him on reddit, youtube, his blog, w/e. -
02-01-2016, 12:22 AMJackFrossYeah, it honestly comes down to personal dps versus raid dps. In the post-progression landscape we're in, personal dps is all that really matters, imo, since the raid's dps should already be more than good enough to down the content. Using the stuff on cooldown, regardless of whether or not it modifies kill time, (generally) will result in a better parse than if you hold it to stack buffs later.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniTyra
It's the same reason Dragoons don't hold B4B for the Hand of Pain check anymore. We don't need that additional damage to clear it, now, so there's no real reason to do it. -
02-01-2016, 12:44 AMSleighYou must have a different definition of raid DPS than me. Raid DPS, or rather effective raid DPS (case in point, A3S's add phase where sacrificing some personal DPS = higher boss DPS) is still the most important thing, pre, mid, and post progression. You shouldn't care about personal DPS that hinders the raid, that should never be your goal unless you're just fflogs chasing.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackFross
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02-01-2016, 01:54 AMJackFrossI worded it poorly, but the essential thing is that pushing cooldowns around and having fewer overall casts of your buffs is a net loss in raid dps for the fight. If you can safely shift a cooldown to bolster your dps (and by extension the raid's dps) while still meeting every check in the fight, there's really no reason not to. If you're in a group where the hand of pain check is still difficult, and you staunchly refuse to shift your B4B to that spot so you can clear the check consistently, you're being a shit. On the flip side, if your raid dps *is* high enough that you consistently clear that dps check without you holding B4B for it, you shouldn't hold it. You're sacrificing raid (and personal) dps to pad a check that you already clear with ease.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
And the add phase B4B - If I get the same amount of casts of B4B and BL in the final phase as any other dragoon (including having B4B come off cooldown ~5-10s before the second hand spawns), why should I be holding my buffs and hindering my own performance on the fight overall? It doesn't change the outcome, doesn't make the fight any harder to clear, it just boosts overall raid dps by padding my own numbers higher.
Using Battle Litany at different times only boosts raid dps if you stack your buffs there, and my group has proven without a doubt that holding buffs to coordinate BL at a certain point gives a net DECREASE in raid dps compared to everyone just doing their thing. One raid night in A4S, we decided to try and boost our third leg dps by coordinating all cooldowns and potions to be used after the dolls are fed and everyone is in full dps up-time. We were consistently 7% to 10% slow on the leg. We reverted to our original strategy (where I open on the leg with BL+B4B+IR+BotD+Potion before the add spawns) and we killed the leg 7+ seconds fast on every attempt without changing anything else in the strat. Maybe it was us being shit? Maybe it was because we limited ourselves to 1 Trick Attack on the leg instead of our usual 2? I dunno. Really turned me off on the idea of sacrificing personal dps for raid dps when that happened. -
02-01-2016, 03:27 AMMiniTyra
I absolutely disagree.
There's a reason why a group have cleared A4S in i190. There's a reason why stacking raid buffs together is effective to push through mechanics and clear fights. There's a reason why every single successful progression group understands the important of stacking buffs/debuffs together. Every single speed clear group synchronises buffs together. It's an extremely effective.
Your group maybe timing your buffs incorrectly and using them in a manner that is completely ineffective, hence why you can't see the benefit of it.
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/RxH2kD...86&view=events
That's a 10min 03s A3S. Notice where the Dragoon is using Litany, blood for blood and his potion. Definitely not during the add phase. -
02-01-2016, 05:51 AMHakmatic
Well I see Jack used my a3 as example for using buffs during adds, and I can tell you right now it's not a raid dps gain. I try different things and popping buffs during adds was one of them. I always change what I do , I also haven't raided in a long time but I would advise not popping b4b during adds. Save it for your potion and other buffs after adds.
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02-02-2016, 03:44 AMJackFross
I wish I had the time or desire to look up those parses now so I could try and figure out why it is that our raid dps was so low when we tried to swap how we coordinate everything, since everything you've been saying definitely sounds correct. I mean, I can't argue that it's entirely possible this is a primary reason I can't seem to get my numbers up over 1250 on the fight, barring the silly excuse of using the 205 spear.
A3S is just a bad example of the thing I'm trying to get across. But yeah, it's the difference between needlessly padding and effective boosts, and I'm just doing it wrong, more or less. -
02-03-2016, 04:18 PMZeviand
There is literally no disadvantage in popping BFB during adds phase in a3s if you pop it at the beginning of adds phase. If you pop BFB as soon as it's up in the previous phases, it'll be up for the beginning of adds phase and will be back up at the start of final phase. So unless you need to hold BFB to get through hand of pain, then why not?
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02-03-2016, 09:47 PMMiniTyra
Yes there is. If you're popping BFB on the fly, your 3rd application happens right after Hand of Pain, not at the beginning of add phase.
Why wouldn't you use it after Hand of Pain and instead pop it during add phase? You can't change or increase the speed at which you get through the phase. No buffs will change the fact it's 8% of Living Liquids HP in 92s, flat. It has no change on the duration of the fight or the HP of living liquid.
Why not pop it after Hand of Pain, where the *1.3 from BFB is meaningful to the fight, where it actually impacts the HP of the boss and impact your clear time in a meaningful way?
Delaying your cooldown to use it, specifically for add phase, is a bigger waste, than using your CDs on the fly and popping BFB 1/2 through the Add Phase. -
02-04-2016, 04:06 AMiLyrica-sama
Thanks for reposting this awesome and informative guide!
So I had a question (not sure if this was asked already or not; I will delete this post if so), but how would we set up this rotation on a hotbar for those on PC playing with a controller (an XB1 controller specifically for myself)? Thanks in advance! -
02-04-2016, 05:00 AMraelaThat is 100% personal preference. There have been multiple posts on people's own set ups recently (check the thread listings for the DPS forum), but in the end, play around and see what makes sense to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by iLyrica-sama
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02-04-2016, 07:31 AMSunnyHiroseDRG isn't really tooled to win the A3 add phase under normal circumstances and with current gear levels... too much walking around trying to hit melting adds, and Disembowel / DoTs just not worth, so there goes a very, very big part of your DPS. I have trouble getting above 1200 for various reasons, but one is simply because we're not feeding me (we're usually more interested in just clearing; heck, I've had us hold Jagd dolls until the 3rd stack because it's easy and prevents Exhaust accidents, but this drops DPS so much).Quote:
Originally Posted by JackFross
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02-04-2016, 07:51 AMSleighIt's worth noting that having healers stop DPS entirely the last wave, and MCH/BRD barely attacking, can lead to the most boss DPS. BLM and all melee (including tanks) really get a lot out of being prepped for Pepsiman's return with their buffs and where they are in their rotation. BRD/MCH too to a lesser degree but they're extremely easy to have what they need prepped.Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyHirose
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02-04-2016, 08:20 AMJackFrossThere's several options listed here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-setup-for-DRGQuote:
Originally Posted by iLyrica-sama
If you wanna convert those longer listed setups to 360 controllers, follow this handy guide:
O = B
▲= Y
◘ = X
X = A
Major recommendations:
1. Get used to extended bars. Do not use them to keep some always-used skills like mounts and such. It's way more efficient and much faster to use the extended bars (RT>LT and LT>RT being two distinct bars) to hold your extra skills, rather than tapping RB to cycle. This is more just a general rule of thumb.
2. Try and keep the majority of your attacking skills in places you can hit while moving - particularly the ones with positional requirements. For me, that tends to be the face buttons (ABXY) and down on the d-pad.
3. Get used to extended bars. Seriously. I swear by them, and have yet to meet someone who uses R1/RB cycling for their main skills while maintaining high dps. It's clunky and awkward comparatively.
4. Don't be afraid to hide less-used skills on a hard-to-reach hotbar (via R1/RB cycling) such as Piercing Talon, Feint, Doom Spike, and Ring of Thorns.
5. Match skills across jobs! Keep your primary skills for each job in the same basic place. It makes it really easy to swap from one to another without needing to remember how things are set up. For example, where I have the Full Thrust combo is also where I have Fire 1-3-4 and Thunder 3 on Black Mage, and Syphon Strike combos for Dark Knight, and it's where I have Cure 1-2/Regen/Tetra and Physick/Adlo/Lustrate/Embrace on WHM and SCH. -
02-05-2016, 04:20 AMSennemaAgreed on all points, although I'm hesitant to use separate bars for Rt>lt, Lt>rt although I'm sure it would make life easier, I just tend to go RT first every time and haven't bothered to train myself to go LT first ever. I use R1 cycling but only use the right side of hotbar 2. That said, sometimes things don't go off (When B4B doesn't trigger on an opener, rage ensues). Maybe I'd have better success if I just took the time to train myself into a new habit... Must investigate.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackFross
I find R1 cycling seems to work ok for me as DRG, and even as DRK, but scholar it gives me problems (Although I should get rid of the pet hotbar maybe and move some skills) and also as I approach 50 BLM I'm quickly finding my hotbar is getting sloppy. -
02-05-2016, 07:58 AMJackFross
Yeah, I trained myself when it came out to use it, and I beat a lot of the issues by having my most common alt-bar skills (Heavy Thrust and Leg Sweep) in the same place on both sides (Y and down, respectively) so I can use them regardless which one I open up.
And I know this isn't the thread for it, so under a cut:
You really shouldn't use the Pet Hotbar on any pet classes. The only skills you need off it are their main skills; the place/obey/etc can be relegated somewhere hidden, while Embrace/Whispering/Covenant/Illum/Wind should be on your main bars (I use tricky stuff that swaps those skills depending on which pet I summon).
And BLM is the easiest - so many of your skills become useless as you level up that you end up with an extremely small array of buttons that you actually *need* on your bar. There's so few that I even put Freeze on for maximum fun. -
02-05-2016, 02:58 PMJackFrossI've been considering using this opener in A4S. As it stands normally, my last combo before Quarantine is a Full Thrust combo, which leaves the Bard with a pretty substantial dead time (approximately 16-17 seconds) of Disembowel if I get sucked up. I'm hoping Relia still stalks this thread to reply to this question, but anyone with knowledge of it would be helpful - would it be worth it? For context, this opener is technically better than the standard potion opener. I'd be trying to theorycraft a no-potion opener myself, since I like using my potion on leg 3 due to being a scrub, but yeah. An extra 5 gcds before that last Disembowel application would cut the time from 16-17 down to 3-4.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReliaWylder
Would it be worthwhile to make a change like this?
//EDIT: After fiddling a bit in excel, I came up with this:
http://ffxivrotations.com/2q9 - optimal H-IDC4-P-IDC4 with no Potion
http://ffxivrotations.com/2qa - optimal H-IDC4-P-TTT4 with no Potion
numbers say the former would be +4-ish pps over the latter, but I dunno if I totally trust the numbers. -
02-06-2016, 01:29 AMNominousQuote:
Originally Posted by MiniTyra
What's this new opener? Where is everything placed? Or is there a video, perhaps? It sounds like it's a bit more... forgiving when it comes to double weaving. -
02-06-2016, 04:20 AMJackFrossIt's not really new. It's the same as the one in the opening post, just with BotD and IR having their order swapped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nominous
http://ffxivrotations.com/2qy - This is what he uses in the video.
Through my own theorycrafting a bit after that was mentioned, I found that this is technically higher opening burst.
http://ffxivrotations.com/2qz
The difference is minor/negligible. Important to note is that, with a 2.4 gcd, your Internal Release will pick up the gsk after Vorpal if you do gsk>life in the normal rotation (that is, IR>BotD) but it won't pick it up if you do life>gsk. The reason for Dervy's change is likely to shift Life Surge that second or so sooner to make things smoother in the long run while still maintaining IR buff on the gsk, since gsk is a flexible cooldown. He's doing insane levels of optimization to pull off an ideal rotation for maximum dps. That shift has absolutely no impact on the dps of the opener, but it has effects down the road. -
02-06-2016, 05:28 AMDarwyn_Ulondarr
What are everyone's thoughts and theories about PvP stat weights? Putting aside ACC for the moment, I'd say pumping CRT and DET is a given for burst damage, but how much skillspeed (if any) would everyone take into a game?
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02-06-2016, 06:08 AMMiniTyraNo, it's not more forgiving at all. It's less forgiving as the timing of every single oCD is 95% more strict.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nominous
Yup. And I also slightly screwed up in that video (double weaved in the wrong order and clipped my GCD twice). I think I could push 1650+ if it weren't for those two GCD clips, something I've since fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackFross
As for the double CT opener, that's something myself and Relia have talked about extensively. As he's correctly mentioned, there's only a 700 damage difference between x2 CT and standard CT openers. You can use either; and some fights may actually favour double CT, over the standard GCD opener. One good example as you correctly mentioned is A4S, if you have a very fast (sub 1min) or slow (post-1:20) Leg 1 kill time.
You also switch around IR and BFB. Whilst that is slightly more Potency in the opener, it effectively pushes your BFB in a very tight spot where you're using it before PH. With higher levels of skillspeed which I now run, this will 100% definitely force me to clip my GCD, or end up delaying it by a further GCD, both of which are dramatic DPS losses. If you're running a 600SS set, then putting BFB where you've put it, Jack, is pretty solid, and was a complete oversight by myself.
As for me, personally, I'll stick to using it before ID, as I now rock 690+ SS on all of my gear sets. -
02-06-2016, 07:10 AMJackFrossYeah, I run 604 skill speed. The thing for me is that having B4B come back up just after Phlebotomize works out well for me, since the way my Jumps roll, my fourth Jump comes up just after B4B falls off if I use it before Phlebotomize, but just before it falls off if I use it after. In that particular instance, I actually get a gain from having it delayed that additional gcd. Granted, it's likely set up that way because my Jump timings are bad or something (1 after 1st 4th hit; 2 after 2nd Vorpal Thrust; 3 after 4th Heavy Thrust, 4 after 2nd B4B Chaos Thrust) which seems consistent at +3 gcds from the previous one, so I dunno. I did number crunching for it a page or two back. Please correct me if I'm doing something outright wrong here. Trading Phleb for a 4th hit + Jump turned out to be a net gain of B4B potency, in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniTyra
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02-06-2016, 08:18 AMMiniTyra
If you're using jumps as soon as they're off CD, delaying it by 1 GCD (in your case, after PH) will allow you to get that Jump buffed, yup.
The thing about running 670+ SS, is that you can use the BFB before the PH, which is more PPS than using it after the PH, and still get your Jump buffed by the BFB. Only downside is that your jump alignment is right after a CT (last 0.5s of BFB), so you need to use it here, which means you may get animation locked and unable to position yourself for your WT/FC. You can mitigate this by placing yourself right on the corner of the Rear/Flank... But it's still risky.
Yeah, my bro math off the top of my head says thats correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackFross
Still not as much potency as getting the buffed PH + Jump, however. It's one of the many few reasons why I love running 690 SS. -
02-06-2016, 12:50 PMJackFross
That makes sense. And I never have issues with using Jump after CT - the only issue is that exact moment of using it. Generally, I'll hit CT, position, Jump, 4th hit without any delays or potency loss. With that b4b, doing that causes me to miss b4b with the Jump. Doing it like you suggested could mean losing 90 potency on the next hit. Seems like a sorta weird risk-reward that I *feel* would be more worth it to just not lose the 90 potency. The b4b would only give ~99 bonus potency on the Jump, including all the buffs, whereas missing the positional loses you ~113 potency, a net loss of 13. It's probably worth it due to the failure being -13 and the success being +99, but yeah.
I might have to look into making a higher skill speed set to test it out and see how it works for me. That 1633 dps video had you running ~690 sks? -
02-06-2016, 11:34 PMNinjah2r
soo I did less dps yesterday on thordan than I did when I was i203 ish back in november lmao. I'm i209 now, got 899 dps lol. I do 1500 at the dummy so my rotation should be good enough, but how the fuck do I increase my dps in that fight?
I mean I've asked back then here, and trying to implement all those tips, and I'm also staying alive lmao.
The way I see it is I can max my dps if I'm not lb'ing (x2) getting towers, and just play greedy/risky...
Is fflogs link enough for you guys to see what's wrong (bufflist etc) or will a vid be better? -
02-07-2016, 12:31 AMJackFross
I think fflogs would be good enough. The duration of fight plays a part in your final dps, because the longer the fight goes, the higher you can get, but you should be entering final phase around 940-970 (or higher if you have NIN/AST/MCH) and going up from there. If you're starting *significantly* lower than that, your issues are probably in earlier phases. If your dps drops from where you enter to where you end, you're messing up in final phase execution. The only times in final phase that you should be off the boss for longer than half a gcd:
1. Towers + Dragon Rage
2. Lightning Storm, if you get picked for tether or dive
3. Fire & Ice - you always wanna run off for this -
02-07-2016, 02:20 AMNominous
Wait, so people are actually running SKS now? Was it proven to be better at some point or something?
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02-07-2016, 03:08 AMMiniTyra
No. I just prefer it because it "feels" better during raids and cooldown alignment, personally, is better.
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02-08-2016, 04:06 AMNinjah2r
holy hell that's a lot of info <3 tyvm!
My opener seems off because I comepletely skipp out phleb out of my rotation, so I can get another GK in. I asked that a few months earlier and from what I gathered at that time, I could just skip out plheb so I can fit another GK in at the start of the fight.
About prepopping, that's my own stupid fault, I should know better lol during the Ser A and Ser J phase. a jump under b4b and SSD as the gapcloser instead of DFD which I used instead.
Also, I noticed that I can get BL in during this phase, and can use b4b/ir/blood during meteors so I'll try that too next time I go in. I'll ofcourse get back to you and have a fflogs link ready so you can see how I did :D
so that's the key things I"ll try to improve on for thordan ex. -
02-08-2016, 04:07 AMNinjah2r
wanted to make 1 post but since se is against more than 1000 characters. here is 2/2
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what about a1s XD? http://www.fflogs.com/reports/6qBZ81...pe=damage-done
note: I'll try cleaving the first adds with GK/DFD and hope that they dont die where melee is standing lol. Also, I'll try to speedkill the adds just like in Thendiel's vid but never done that before, so I'll have to practice that.
I'm doing good on faust tho lmao.. -
02-08-2016, 05:30 AMJackFross
You can use BotD again at the end of phase 1 in Thordan and still have it back for the Knights. In this way, you get 4 gsk in the opening phase while maintaining the higher dps brought by using Phlebotomize. C: Dropping Phleb in single-target is actually an overall dps loss, even with the gain of +1 gsk.
I'm not a super good authority on A1S. I know the fight pretty well, but I do a lot of wonky things that aren't exactly optimal.
There is something to be said for holding DFD for the first add spawn, rather than using it in the opener (I always forget to...). You'll get 3 hits of DFD in phase 1, 1 hit in Phase 2, 1 hit in Phase 3. If you use it in the opener, you get 2 hits in Phase 1, 1 hit in Phase 2, 1 hit in Phase 3. It comes down to B4B overlap, and I'm not totally qualified to calculate that. The first DFD in p1 gets B4B (and crit buffs) while the second one gets to hit an Alarum and the Oppressor which would be ~4.35-4.4x DFD. Holding it for the first Alarums is ~4.14-4.25x, since they have a ~25-30% buff on damage done to them. So if you're using it on Alarum+Opp for the second shot, it's better to use it on cooldown. And if you only get 1/2 of the Alarums from the first DFD (since you have to wait for the SMN or SCH to pick them up first), you lose a significant amount of dps, since then you have exactly what the second DFD is in the first case, just without the additional B4B one at the start.
But uh, imo, there's two ways to handle Alarums.
In this kill, I handled them in way 1:
1. Pick up the add with ID the first time into Dis>CT on the Opp, before returning to finish the Alarum off.
--- Second one comes up just after FT, so pick it up with 4th>HT>ID>gsk>[Dis+CT on Opp]>back to Alarum to finish.
2. Grab the Alarum and murder it before the lasers come out with a series of quick hits incorporating off-gcd skills. Remember it has a ~1.3x bonus from damage on it, so saving a Jump or SSD from the opener to hit the Alarum isn't a significant loss of dps, since you'll still get the same amount in the ~90s phase.
Those are the only real tips I have re: A1S, since I myself am not doing it optimally, and I don't really have any answers on how to do it better. It's hard, because most good players have done 0-jump kills, now, and those aren't really super helpful in terms of how to effectively do the fight, since they're all bumped up by Astrologians and short kill times, so it's hard to reason out which one did it the best compared to which one just got the luckiest crits. -
02-08-2016, 09:09 AMHakmatic
Umm.. Go Broncos !!!!
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02-08-2016, 09:39 PMAsh_Smokespear
Just wanted to thank everyone again for all the interesting input on A3S the past few pages, didn't realise my question about BL and other cooldown timing would spawn this amount of back and forth :p we finally got our clear last night, better late than never! I did absolutely horrible, completely flubbing my rotation at various stages but dead is dead \o/
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02-08-2016, 11:39 PMCookieMonstaYo Hak, go check out the DRG AoE thread, you will chortle XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Hakmatic
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02-09-2016, 01:42 AMNinjah2r
@JackFross, alright thanks I'll try that again when I get back in ^_^
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02-10-2016, 03:04 AMJackFross
It is. I was just trying to help. Should have given up after their first dismissal of my comments, but I'm a dumb. ;-;
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02-11-2016, 04:19 AMNinjah2r
Can someone give me a tl;dr of the other thread XD?
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02-11-2016, 04:27 AMwhiskeybravoI can't even.. But here goes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjah2r
We need a thorough AOE section in the OP.
Think I'll work on a spreadsheet/graph kinda thing.. If others approve maybe Thendiel will hop on and update it. -
02-11-2016, 06:50 AMKrioni
So I had a quick observation in terms of raw potency calculation and when we should use GK for best optimization with blood for blood, etc.
My calculation of a rough estimate for a current rotation would be something like this:
1 [B4B, botd, GK, 16] 2 [19]
3 [GK, 12] 4 [15]
5 [18] 6 [GK, 11]
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 referring to the combos and the two "halves" of a sort to our rotation. Then, in brackets, I note whether BotD, GK, and/or B4B is triggered then. I did just some adding up of the raw potency (unbuffed) of the GCD's and the GK's during this period, assuming a fourth GK is thrown in before triggering BotD again, and got this:
(Continued in next post)