Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Aarchie

With how the question in the QnA was reformulated, I now ponder if SE as a whole is aware of the situation but dont want to address or Yoshi P have the wrong idea about the complaints for the way the team communicates to him the issue.

Do we know if we still the lack of a main healer in the combat Dev team?

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The only dev team members I’ve heard of who played as healers were Foxclon (the global community producer who does the letters with Yoshi-P) but they only mentioned it once near the end of SB (as a WHM) and guest designer Yoko Taro, who stopped playing because he couldn’t solo Titan hard as a WHM.

That's probably still the biggest issue with healer design.
It's not something you can look at from a purely theoretical point of view and understand the reality. Especially not if you only main dps. It's the age old "expectation vs reality". You can't just look at the skills, read the tooltips and accurately gauge how healers will play and feel in reality without some first-hand experience.
If you ask a player about a role they have never ever touched (not even as a "I level it through roulettes" kind of thing) you will get answers that are wildly different from how it really is. They have their own idea and are influenced by what others said but that's it.
They lack the experience to refute or confirm any of the claims.
It's the same with what many people think about casters: they constantly have to stand still, they're turrets, you need to know the fight well to get your casts about because oh no, you have to stand still for 2s.
Reality is that it wasn't the case in ShB and is even less true with EW but people still think of turrets that are rooted to the ground when they think of casters. And I don't even mean BLM, I mean all casters.

There are a few things people that don't play healer usually don't get but they are fundamental for understanding the reality of healer gameplay once past the baby healer stage:
- healing is completely binary: it is either enough to live or not enough and you die. No inbetween. Surviving with 2 digits is the same as surviving with 4 digits. You live. Plain and simple
- useful healing has hard cap and any healing done beyond what was required wasn't useful, feely-heals that only serve to project a certain image are not onjectively useful
- incoming damage has a very low variance; you can't die suddenly from an aoe you previously survived with 10% HP given the same gear and mitigation
- damage is scripted and an aoe only happens when it was mapped to happen, there doesn't exist random surprise damage out of nowhere from a boss
- oGCDs are not for emergencies, there are supposed to be used liberally as they prevent emergencies from happening in the first place
- using dps neutral mitigation/ healing from tanks & dps is not a sign of a bad healer but a sign of a good dps and a good healer if they plan around it
- natural regen is a form of healing that can be utilized and letting people sit below full HP is not a sign of a bad healer
- healing faster doesn't give you any advantage unless a spread mechanic comes up shortly that makes it impossible to heal everyone efficiently
- "countering" each damage one by one with a heal cast is usually the least efficient way to heal because it doesn't factor in the initial HP pool nor any natural regen

That's not something everyone gets on day 1 after playing healer for a bit in a dungeon but designing healers without all that in mind leads to what we currently have.
Healers are designed as if extra healing is beneficial,natural regen, dps mitigation/ heal should be avoided, oGCDs are supporting actors for GCD heals, random damage could happen anytime even with everyone playing well and the initial HP bar isn't something to factor in and instead simply to be kept full at all times. Just in case, you know?
I think it's not even "healers should only HEAL" what many non-healers and the devs think of the role, it's more that they vastly underestimate all the options there are to keep someone from dying. Only from dying, not necessarily at full HP.
And it's fine that new healers don't utilize all those tools and options but veteran healers do and they also make up a big part of the healer playerbase and more importantly, of the consistent healer playerbase. They need to be kept in mind when designing healers. If they don't, they'll quit one by one and get replaced by people that play healer with the same enthusiasm as someone only leveling a class to 80 to get the Amaro mount.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Reality is that it wasn't the case in ShB and is even less true with EW but people still think of turrets that are rooted to the ground when they think of casters. And I don't even mean BLM, I mean all casters.

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What sucks is there are people who still think that BLM are immobile turrets despite getting TWO charges of Triple Cast, TWO charges of sharpcast to either hold onto thunder proc or or firestarter proc, Switfcast, Xenoglossy being instant, Paradox being instant on ice phase, and Scathe as an absolute last resort.

SMN is ridiculously mobile now

RDM always has been.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

- oGCDs are not for emergencies, there are supposed to be used liberally as they prevent emergencies from happening in the first place

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This is extremely similar to tanks and their defensive mitigation CD's. You don't want to be using them when sh!t hits the fan. You want to use them before that so it doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This pattern of releasing a few jobs in a state somewhere between non competitive and barely functional and then having to spend the next 6 months worth of patches simply fixing them is both predictable and a huge waste of their time..

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

However, Yoshi-P himself has stated many times that they will never be as smart as their players, which isn't a bad thing, it's just a fact. However many hundred of devs is nothing compared to the millions that play the game, and there is a good chance the player will find a way to play the job better than the devs ever intended. S

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That is LITERALLY the point of a Player Test Realm. To get the developers outside of their echo chamber that they're in. Get an outside perspective and find things they missed BEFORE it goes live so they don't have to spend resources fixing it after.

That excuse "They'll never be as smart as millions of players" has been used for years now. Either it's ignorance or apathy and neither should be acceptable this long into a game's lifecycle.

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Originally Posted by BrokentoothMarch

I envy most people in this thread. What a carefree life one must live to be able to fill the social void with some weird and schizophrenic parasocial relationship with a company that couldn't care less if you died tomorrow. To grant such importance to it that you'd spend hours defending what would be stated as objective design shortcomings in quite literally any other game.

The community is so casualized and viciously "positively" toxic that reasoning with it has become impossible. And now the dev team take advantage of that to show flippant remarks and what would be reviled arrogance, again, in any other scenario. This is why I don't play in DF anymore. This is why I'm struggling to find a reason to do anything except play BLU and pretend Yoshi didn't take a fat steaming one over one of my favorite classes in the series with a laughable excuse that this community took on the chin. Yes. FFXI, a game from two decades ago, simply had access to alien technology that allowed that job to be born and allowed other jobs to maintain an engagement and identity that didn't hinge off the holy role trinity that is so heavily enforced because Yoshi's imagination is limited to whatever WoW thought up.

Healers have been told to take a hike. The past year or so tanks have been realizing we've been suffering a similar homogenization. But it's okay because daddy Yoshi knows what he's doing and as long as a new DPS class is released every expansion, there is naught to complain about.

I don't know who you people are, but you aren't the community that was around when HW released. I don't know where they went, but I'm probably going to end up unsubbing someday soon and following suit if both the game and it's community will so willfully decay like this.

/Rant

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It honestly just sounds like you've burned yourself out. Nobody should ever get this upset over a video game and remember it's actually okay to take a break.

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Originally Posted by seraf

It honestly just sounds like you've burned yourself out. Nobody should ever get this upset over a video game and remember it's actually okay to take a break.

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Conversely, no one should be told that they shouldn't expect to have fun playing a video game unless they can reach what they consider the tippy-toppiest of difficulties, but here we are.

Comment: "I'm a casual player not interested in doing Ultimate, but I wish healing were more engaging even in typical, broadly accessible content."

Response Type 1: "You lack the clout to make this claim about non-Ultimate content. Go play Ultimate to be taken seriously (about non-Ultimate content)."

Response Type 2:"But healing is fun™ and if you tell me otherwise, you must be a jaded elitist. Go play Ultimate, elitist."

Damn, we didn't even need Yoshida for this.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

That is LITERALLY the point of a Player Test Realm. To get the developers outside of their echo chamber that they're in. Get an outside perspective and find things they missed BEFORE it goes live so they don't have to spend resources fixing it after.

That excuse "They'll never be as smart as millions of players" has been used for years now. Either it's ignorance or apathy and neither should be acceptable this long into a game's lifecycle.

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To be fair, it really shouldn't take a player test group to note that "Hmm, this skill only award roughly 60 potency per minute to even have on my bar, despite giving many more opportunities to lose more than that," (True Strike), or "This previously low-potency skill (Dragon Kick) that also gives massive effective potency to another also happens to be stronger than the far more rarely usable skill with no such bonus (True Strike), to the point that it might not be worth using any other skills except per (de)buff upkeep."

The Paradox rotation at least falls well short while not much reducing effort required. DK spam, on the other hand, is as much a mess as looking at two spells doing the same thing but one having a far higher MP cost despite being on an already far less MP-flush job.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

If SE had hundreds of devs (Or even a consistent testing team of that scale with experience and skill comparable to a prog raiding static) then I don't think they would be making the significant oversights and mistakes that are pretty much a given with each expansion release. This pattern of releasing a few jobs in a state somewhere between non competitive and barely functional and then having to spend the next 6 months worth of patches simply fixing them is both predictable and a huge waste of their time.

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Meanwhile, the continual irony is people will prop up how incredibly balanced all the jobs are despite them being anything but. Presently, we're seeing comically high DPS discrepancies that simply shouldn't exist this long into an expansion cycle. For specific highlights:

White Mage is worthless. And I don't say that to be hyperbolic. The job offers literally nothing its counterpart Healers don't perform better at. Since the release of Endwalker White Mage has: the lowest DPS output, the weakest MP economy, the least mobility, the weakest healing flexibility and is the least able to recover from dying. Simply put, White Mage does nothing. It's downright baffling and a little embarrassing it was left in this state come 6.08. Unfortunately, White Mage remains incredibly popular at a casual level. So it may be left to rot for several patches.

Another major balance issue is the Physical Range. Nevermind the whole range tax is nonsense, Machinist is so woefully inferior DPS wise, the job may as well not exist. The supposedly selfish DPS job can't keep up with Dancer of all jobs. A similar problem has happened with the Casters as Black Mage utterly dwarfs Red Mage and Summoner since its 6.08 buffs—to the tune of nearly 1,000 rDPS. It's insane just how much stronger Black Mage is. And before anyone mentions it being the selfish Caster. Dragoon, Reaper, Monk and even Ninja are all reasonably competitive with Samurai despite its selfish nature. Hence why right now the only role decently balanced are the Melee. Bit ironic considering how the role started.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Meanwhile, the continual irony is people will prop up how incredibly balanced all the jobs are despite them being anything but. Presently, we're seeing comically high DPS discrepancies that simply shouldn't exist this long into an expansion cycle. For specific highlights

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As a long haul White Mage complainer, the claim that XIV's jobs are so well balanced has always been a headscratcher. Most of the roles/subroles had rDPS within a few percentage of one another most of the time? Sure, they're usually alright at that if that's your only metric. But White Mage being a hundred or two rDPS behind the others is anything but the whole story there. It's worse in damage while also being worse everywhere else, so there's no tradeoff. Sure, rDPS rarely being too far apart is a nice bonus...except you also see Square designing jobs that are superior choices in every single conceivable way. Even if that superiority gap is smaller in some places than others, that's still piss poor balance in my view.

Here, have your pick of two classes in this RPG. One has stats that are all 10s, and has access to level 6 spells. The other has one 10, and the other stats range from 11 to 15. They get access up to level 9 spells. Choose wisely! They both have a 10 in that one stat so I'm sure it's a real hard decision.

And that's just balance within the role, not even touching the thread topic of engagement. The healer role is so terribly designed that engagement isn't even where the BS ends.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Meanwhile, the continual irony is people will prop up how incredibly balanced all the jobs are despite them being anything but. Presently, we're seeing comically high DPS discrepancies that simply shouldn't exist this long into an expansion cycle. For specific highlights:

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I expect one of the reasons is they "balance" it by making content easier in terms of enrage timers and healing required. When content is easy other than resolving mechanics, it matters less whether the individual classes you bring are bad and more whether your team can do mechs correctly. Thus creating an artificial illusion of "balance" where all classes are fine.

Very little content in the game has tight dps checks now. Normal has almost no dps checks or enrage. EX is extremely lenient. Even Savage is designed so it can be cleared with multiple deaths, 50% uptime healers and a few single digit parsing dps as long as half the group is competent. Ultimate is known for low dps checks and being mechanics focused.
Same for healing, everything in the game requires very little healing and the cases that do, GCD heals are so strong even a WHM can churn out a few 1000 potency Medica IIs and cover it. The GCD heal dps loss won't matter because enrage timers don't matter much.
There's also the 1 phys ranged, 1 caster, 1 melee restriction as well as the fact that buffs from the same class don't stack, to discourage players from trying to exclude the "bad" classes and stack the good ones. It's not that bad to bring a MCH because hey, you get your 1% party bonus. "Balanced" without the work of actually balancing.

In the very rare cases healing or dps isn't easy and it actually matters, balance goes out the window. The best example is WHM in p3s, where suddenly it statistically goes from being the most popular healer to one of the least popular. Why bring the barebones rubbish healer when there's actually a difficult healing mechanic that can make or break a clear, that AST laughs at. Or the "no PLD" groups for early tier prog where damage was more important.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Meanwhile, the continual irony is people will prop up how incredibly balanced all the jobs are despite them being anything but. Presently, we're seeing comically high DPS discrepancies that simply shouldn't exist this long into an expansion cycle. For specific highlights:

White Mage is worthless. And I don't say that to be hyperbolic. The job offers literally nothing its counterpart Healers don't perform better at. Since the release of Endwalker White Mage has: the lowest DPS output, the weakest MP economy, the least mobility, the weakest healing flexibility and is the least able to recover from dying. Simply put, White Mage does nothing. It's downright baffling and a little embarrassing it was left in this state come 6.08. Unfortunately, White Mage remains incredibly popular at a casual level. So it may be left to rot for several patches.

Another major balance issue is the Physical Range. Nevermind the whole range tax is nonsense, Machinist is so woefully inferior DPS wise, the job may as well not exist. The supposedly selfish DPS job can't keep up with Dancer of all jobs. A similar problem has happened with the Casters as Black Mage utterly dwarfs Red Mage and Summoner since its 6.08 buffs—to the tune of nearly 1,000 rDPS. It's insane just how much stronger Black Mage is. And before anyone mentions it being the selfish Caster. Dragoon, Reaper, Monk and even Ninja are all reasonably competitive with Samurai despite its selfish nature. Hence why right now the only role decently balanced are the Melee. Bit ironic considering how the role started.

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It may be intentional design that certain iconic jobs are just easier to play and optimization is less important to the devs. If a new player can come in and do okay as a WHM or SMN or RPR, then the popular "entry level jobs" are performing as intended.

Put another way, and using casters as I think a pretty clear example, what if the devs' idea of "balance" is having a job for every level of skill?

* SMN - beginners, casual
* RDM - intermediate, prog
* BLM - expert, current raid tier and Ultimate

You can even see a similar spectrum across Maiming vs. Striking (although I'm not sure where NIN was *intended* to fall in that spectrum).

Does that obviate a hope that jobs can still be balanced at all levels of play? Not at all. Does that still suck for people who mained WHM prior to this rebalancing? Absolutely. But I do think it is important to keep in mind that there may be other factors at play. The more jobs we have, the less important job balance actually becomes if there are other prevailing priorities like accessibility.

I also have no idea how WHM plays at lower levels and if it actually *is* more accessible than the other healers. But I have a strong hunch it probably is the most intuitive of the healing jobs, despite all its inefficiencies, because compared to the other healers the concept is quite direct and gimmick-free.

I have a really nice solution for healing ; reducing all healing potency or just put the cleric stance back, so you can panic heal in low level dungeon :D /s

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Put another way, and using casters as I think a pretty clear example, what if the devs' idea of "balance" is having a job for every level of skill?

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That falls flat when tanks and healers do not have that distinction.

WHM is only "easy" because it isn't a proactive healer (shield) and doesn't have anything else to juggle (cards).

SGE imo is an easier SCH because it doesn't have the pet ai to mess with.

SCH isn't exactly hard either.

And AST? I'm an AST main and have been since I got into HW and all through EW. There is nothing hard about it even when you factor in the cards.

Besides all that focusing directly on the healers' primary job, there is nothing HARD about how they heal either. Shield healing is rather straightforward and both SGE and SCH have easy to use regens. Is it harder for them to recover from a party mess up? Yes but not by much.

AST would be a harder healer to use if it had both Benefics remove and only had ED for its burst healing and hand to rely solely on regens. It doesn't.

And WHM...


Also, while RDM and BLM are intermediate to hard to master, their bar to entry is still easy. They have growth. SMN mains are asking for that growth as are we healers.

RDM and BLM should be the standard design of jobs across the board. They aren't hard to do their basic job: damage. But they have intricacies to make DOING DAMAGE interesting.

Now if only healers and tanks could get that.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

It may be intentional design that certain iconic jobs are just easier to play and optimization is less important to the devs. If a new player can come in and do okay as a WHM or SMN or RPR, then the popular "entry level jobs" are performing as intended.

Put another way, and using casters as I think a pretty clear example, what if the devs' idea of "balance" is having a job for every level of skill?

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I may be tempted to agree... if there were any signs of consistency with this mindset. There aren't.

Melee have been horrendously imbalanced at both Shadowbringers and Endwalker's launch. Ninja and Samurai were both woefully inferior despite both being the harder Melee to play, especially in early 5.0. Reaper, meanwhile, is among the easiest jobs in the entire game to simply pick up and play yet it stood as the strongest; so overpowered at 6.0 that it could die and still parse better than a Orange tier Machinist or Dancer.

Going to your Caster example. As ASkellington said, none of them are particularly challenging at a sub-optimal level. Black Mage has become far more inviting and easier to grasp than its older iterations. Even if that were the case, you simply can't balance jobs around difficulty because it will promote exclusion. Come the release of Dragonsong, the only thing keeping Red Mage and Summoner alive is Resurrection/Verraise. The damage difference between them and Black Mage is so massive, it'd be silly not prioritizing a Black Mage player over the other Casters—assuming a comparable enough skill level. Machinist doesn't have such luxury and basically needs Jesus come 6.1 or it will rot. The imbalance between it, Bard and Dancer is just too significant.

Bringing this back around to healers. White Mage doesn't even excel at being the easiest healer to play. Sage is comparably easy at a base level but has far better versatility. At this moment, White Mage absolutely nothing it excels at in any noteworthy way.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

That falls flat when tanks and healers do not have that distinction.

WHM is only "easy" because it isn't a proactive healer (shield) and doesn't have anything else to juggle (cards).

SGE imo is an easier SCH because it doesn't have the pet ai to mess with.

SCH isn't exactly hard either.

And AST? I'm an AST main and have been since I got into HW and all through EW. There is nothing hard about it even when you factor in the cards.

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Just because they aren't hard for you doesn't mean the average noob might have a more difficult time juggling cards/faeries/DPS than they might have with a more straightforward job like WHM. People who find *any* job easy in this game are probably not the target audience being designed for...for every one of you, there are five casuals who SE is trying to rope in with a very low accessibility threshold.

And just because the distinction is different across healers or tanks as opposed to casters or melee, does not obviate the possibility of an intent for *some* skill-based stratification of jobs. Again, I point toward the fact that WHM seems pretty clearly designed to be easier than any of the other healer jobs, and also happens to be an entry point for a lot of healers because of the iconicity of the job.

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Also, while RDM and BLM are intermediate to hard to master, their bar to entry is still easy. They have growth. SMN mains are asking for that growth as are we healers.

RDM and BLM should be the standard design of jobs across the board. They aren't hard to do their basic job: damage. But they have intricacies to make DOING DAMAGE interesting.

Now if only healers and tanks could get that.

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Again, just because they have a low barrier of entry *to you* does not mean that they aren't still more complicated than SMN. RDM and BLM place a lot of player agency on properly ordering spells to manage doublecast/AF-UI, as well as forcing them to figure out their burst windows manually. SMN--as far as I understand the rework for not having played it--is practically on autopilot rails, where the spell choices hardly matter and the burst windows are for the most part built-in to the burst spells.

SMN feels designed to introduce players to DPS, the same way WHM feels designed to introduce players to healing. We can argue whether WHM actually does a good job of this (and I agree it doesn't seem to be accomplishing it at the moment), but I think it is a factor that needs to be accounted for in discussion of why and in what manner WHM is struggling.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I may be tempted to agree... if there were any signs of consistency with this mindset. There aren't.

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I have to note that consistency doesn't necessarily obviate an intent...it just means the vision wasn't successfully realized. I still think RPR makes a pretty strong case for accessibility being at the forefront of job design.

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Going to your Caster example. As ASkellington said, none of them are particularly challenging at a sub-optimal level. Black Mage has become far more inviting and easier to grasp than its older iterations. Even if that were the case, you simply can't balance jobs around difficulty because it will promote exclusion. Come the release of Dragonsong, the only thing keeping Red Mage and Summoner alive is Resurrection/Verraise. The damage difference between them and Black Mage is so massive, it'd be silly not prioritizing a Black Mage player over the other Casters—assuming a comparable enough skill level. Machinist doesn't have such luxury and basically needs Jesus come 6.1 or it will rot. The imbalance between it, Bard and Dancer is just too significant.

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Again, this is assuming comparable skill level. Which I think I think may be a tad unfair to what XIV seems to be trying to do, make space for (very) casual players to enjoy the game as well. I don't even know where I fall on that and whether the disdain for bad players is warranted, but I do think it is unrealistic to pretend that XIV isn't catering to extremely casual players.

But, more to the point, I think this idea of "exclusion" is a bit misguided among the playerbase. When you compare to a WoW or GW2, job balance matters because players invest in a single job and have to entirely re-roll a character if the job they have is excluded by the meta (in theory, both games allow for speccing differently, but then we are talking players being shoehorned into a specific role they may not enjoy, so not much better). FFXIV, in theory, would not be "excluding" anyone from participating in higher tier content when they have the option to switch to any other job. The fact that XIV's balance is such that "any job can clear" is certainly quite nice for people who like a particular job fantasy and definitely helps its sub-base. But again, I pointed out that we have a *lot* of jobs to choose from--in theory, allocating a small handful of jobs to "baby's first" category would not destroy job balance and create exclusionism in a way that would totally ruin the game like it would other job-locked MMOs.

Yes, we would have some small job-specific cults that would be put out that their favorite job is no longer viable at higher levels. And we could argue how bad that may be for the game, but I don't think it's the death-knell people would paint it to be. There's a lot of nuance and interest-balancing. Like, having under-powered or easy mode jobs in a game can easily be spun as a "challenge mode" for more skilled players (oh wow, you cleared Dragonsong with WHM? Mad skills.). The idea of job balance in FFXIV is not as binary as it is in other MMOs because the job system is so flexible.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

The idea of job balance in FFXIV is not as binary as it is in other MMOs because the job system is so flexible.

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ROFL

As if FF14 doesn't have one of the strictest job system among MMOs because there's only one build, only one objective (damage, even during progression), only one relevant piece of content where balance matters (raids).

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Originally Posted by Skiros

ROFL

As if FF14 doesn't have one of the strictest job system among MMOs because there's only one build, only one objective (damage, even during progression), only one relevant piece of content where balance matters (raids).

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Your arguments are impressionistic and unhelpful as always, Skiros.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

But, more to the point, I think this idea of "exclusion" is a bit misguided among the playerbase. When you compare to a WoW or GW2, job balance matters because players invest in a single job and have to entirely re-roll a character if the job they have is excluded by the meta (in theory, both games allow for speccing differently, but then we are talking players being shoehorned into a specific role they may not enjoy, so not much better). FFXIV, in theory, would not be "excluding" anyone from participating in higher tier content when they have the option to switch to any other job. The fact that XIV's balance is such that "any job can clear" is certainly quite nice for people who like a particular job fantasy and definitely helps its sub-base. But again, I pointed out that we have a *lot* of jobs to choose from--in theory, allocating a small handful of jobs to "baby's first" category would not destroy job balance and create exclusionism in a way that would totally ruin the game like it would other job-locked MMOs.

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I have always refused to allow Square Enix to try this on me, and I'm not about to start.

"WHM being boring and weak and stupidly designed could actually be a good thing because then someday when you're not a window-licker you could either feel proud that you cleared content on a hamstrung underpowered crayon eater Fisher Price baby-tier job or graduate to a powerful, smoothly designed, non-clunky job that actually matters"

Or...or....ooooor.....maybe, WHM could actually be good at things and have an entertaining gameplay loop and not punish you for playing skillfully and perhaps in a drug-fueled pipe dream actually be competitive in its role, instead of being literally the only job in this game that people constantly, unironically rationalize its horrible insultingly easy design as a "good thing".

Better make Monk spend all of its time spamming 111111111111 because that's good design for newbies and it's healthy to have at least one job in a role arbitrarily suck because a skill ceiling is scary and they need a playpen where improvement is forbidden. Said nobody ever.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Better make Monk spend all of its time spamming 111111111111 because that's good design for newbies and it's healthy to have at least one job in a role arbitrarily suck because a skill ceiling is scary and they need a playpen where improvement is forbidden. Said nobody ever.

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People asked that about Summoner at some point, apparently, judging by the borefest that the class is at the current moment. Just spamming 1 and 2, not alternating, just changing which button you spam depending on what phase you're in with no thought given to anything.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

ROFL

As if FF14 doesn't have one of the strictest job system among MMOs because there's only one build, only one objective (damage, even during progression), only one relevant piece of content where balance matters (raids).

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It's not like we need multiple builds per job when one character can swap and play 20 jobs ,sure it could be more interesting, but not really when the gigabrains figure out what the meta is and everyone just builds that. Yes, you need damage to kill a boss?(though I do agree the end-game healing could be required more) And of course the balance is geared towards the raid? Is an MMO not supposed to balance for it's end-game content? What do you want, balance based off PotD?

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

People asked that about Summoner at some point, apparently, judging by the borefest that the class is at the current moment. Just spamming 1 and 2, not alternating, just changing which button you spam depending on what phase you're in with no thought given to anything.

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There is a guide to macro SMN to just one button if you really want the 1-1-1-1-1-1 dream.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

It's not like we need multiple builds per job when one character can swap and play 20 jobs ,sure it could be more interesting, but not really when the gigabrains figure out what the meta is and everyone just builds that. Yes, you need damage to kill a boss?(though I do agree the end-game healing could be required more) And of course the balance is geared towards the raid? Is an MMO not supposed to balance for it's end-game content? What do you want, balance based off PotD?

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I'm a former WHM main. There will always be a meta, that's not in question. Why is it that the idea of WHM ever, ever, ever, ever, ever coming within spitting distance of the meta without peals of laughter is so anathema to this game's design? I'm not mad about there being a meta, that would be tilting at windmills. To call the healer meta stagnant would be an understatement. WHM has sucked ass for literal years.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I have always refused to allow Square Enix to try this on me, and I'm not about to start.

"WHM being boring and weak and stupidly designed could actually be a good thing because then someday when you're not a window-licker you could either feel proud that you cleared content on a hamstrung underpowered crayon eater Fisher Price baby-tier job or graduate to a powerful, smoothly designed, non-clunky job that actually matters"

Or...or....ooooor.....maybe, WHM could actually be good at things and have an entertaining gameplay loop and not punish you for playing skillfully and perhaps in a drug-fueled pipe dream actually be competitive in its role, instead of being literally the only job in this game that people constantly, unironically rationalize its horrible insultingly easy design as a "good thing".

Better make Monk spend all of its time spamming 111111111111 because that's good design for newbies and it's healthy to have at least one job in a role arbitrarily suck because a skill ceiling is scary and they need a playpen where improvement is forbidden. Said nobody ever.

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Okay this actually made me laugh.

I can't really take a hardline position on this either way though, unfortunately. WHM is a very archetypal FF job, tending to be played by traditionalists and new players, and none of those things really facilitate a gimmicky playstyle. Maybe if it had leaned more into the earth/water conjuring we could have something interesting evolve like BLM's AF/UI without alienating too many WHM fans, although I would argue elementalist spells just don't resonate as well with the popular idea of WHMs as much as they do BLMs. In either case, I consider WHM, BLM, PLD to be "obligatory" jobs that really don't facilitate good/original design, and it's a minor miracle BLM ended up interesting at all.

So it doesn't surprise me that WHM sucks when it's easily the least conceptually deep job in FF canon and hasn't been a standalone job since FFV, needing to be propped up by more interesting job traits. And yeah that doesn't excuse XIV's job being inefficient and clunky...it could at least be streamlined like SMN. But also...I'm not sure what people were expecting? It hasn't been interesting to me in years, since we lost Stone/Aero and got some stupid glitter and flower spells?

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I'm a former WHM main. There will always be a meta, that's not in question. Why is it that the idea of WHM ever, ever, ever, ever, ever coming within spitting distance of the meta without peals of laughter is so anathema to this game's design? I'm not mad about there being a meta, that would be tilting at windmills. To call the healer meta stagnant would be an understatement. WHM has sucked ass for literal years.

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I don't disagree that WHM is the healer that needs the most care from the dev team at the moment, just was pointing out we don't need different job builds because we can just play a different job. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't WHM meta near the beginning of ShB because it's damage was so high? I know it's still one of the best healers for TEA, where it beats out two of the tanks in DPS. Plus all DRK mains love a WHM main lol. Again, not saying it's good now, or was fun to play then, just saying that even after the introduction of AST it still finds it's place.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Okay this actually made me laugh.

I can't really take a hardline position on this either way though, unfortunately. WHM is a very archetypal FF job, tending to be played by traditionalists and new players, and none of those things really facilitate a gimmicky playstyle. Maybe if it had leaned more into the earth/water conjuring we could have something interesting evolve like BLM's AF/UI without alienating too many WHM fans, although I would argue elementalist spells just don't resonate as well with the popular idea of WHMs as much as they do BLMs. In either case, I consider WHM, BLM, PLD to be "obligatory" jobs that really don't facilitate good/original design, and it's a minor miracle BLM ended up interesting at all.

So it doesn't surprise me that WHM sucks when it's easily the least conceptually deep job in FF canon. And yeah that doesn't excuse XIV's job being inefficient and clunky...it could at least be streamlined like SMN. But also...I'm not sure what people were expecting? It hasn't been interesting to me in years, since we lost Stone/Aero and got some stupid glitter and flower spells?

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I've aimed my cannons at this take in the healer subforum more than once too. "WHM is boring and stupid. That's okay though, the statute of limitations on an insulting job lobotomy is two years. After that it's 'how the job is supposed to be, what do you expect?'".

I'd love it if my favorite job didn't suck and have terrible uninspired design. BLM is spared this fate not by some miracle, but because YoshiP mains it. That's it. It gets more attention and isn't allowed to fall onto the trash heap because it gets special attention.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

I don't disagree that WHM is the healer that needs the most care from the dev team at the moment, just was pointing out we don't need different job builds because we can just play a different job. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't WHM meta near the beginning of ShB because it's damage was so high? I know it's still one of the best healers for TEA, where it beats out two of the tanks in DPS. Plus all DRK mains love a WHM main lol. Again, not saying it's good now, or was fun to play then, just saying that even after the introduction of AST it still finds it's place.

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You'd better believe for the ten seconds WHM was meta the other two healers screamed their bloody heads off because WHM is "simpler" and "easier" and it being meta is "unfair".

I think there's a whole host of problems with the healer role, and all of it needs a core redesign to be engaging. But I was a WHM main from ARR through the beginning of SHB, and as many +1s as I tend to get for railing against healer design in general, I usually get the cold shoulder for my other take; that WHM is the obligatory garbage can-tier job, and remains that way year after year and expansion after expansion, and scratch the surface of the "awwwwwww they could bring your job up to snuff *someday*" platitudes, and you can tell the rest of the role isn't all that broken up about it. Especially if it means balancing the role out means they can't be undisputed God-tier good-at-everything forevermeta anymore, heavens no. But we don't care about being meta, that's just crazy talk. Unless YOU become meta for a week at the start of the expansion, then it's armageddon.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

ROFL

As if FF14 doesn't have one of the strictest job system among MMOs because there's only one build, only one objective (damage, even during progression), only one relevant piece of content where balance matters (raids).

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In WoW I PvP'd hardcore for years throughout Vanilla and early BC as a healing/support focused hybrid Shaman build. Once the focus switched to Arena, Resto Shaman was lacking compared to Druid and my EU to NA latency was the final nail in the coffin. My character was basically dead outside of dwelling on past glories by the Orgrimmar gate.

With FFXIV's job system, at least I have the option of switching to a more viable class where my latency wouldn't make things so unforgiving. With WoW I basically had to toss aside years of HKs, gear, titles and reputation if I wanted to be active again.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I've aimed my cannons at this take in the healer subforum more than once too. "WHM is boring and stupid. That's okay though, the statute of limitations on an insulting job lobotomy is two years. After that it's 'how the job is supposed to be, what do you expect?'".

I'd love it if my favorite job didn't suck and have terrible uninspired design. BLM is spared this fate not by some miracle, but because YoshiP mains it. That's it. It gets more attention and isn't allowed to fall onto the trash heap because it gets special attention.

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Miracle, YoshiP ... potato, popoto; BLM won the lottery either way. You're not wrong, and maybe the solution would be to have an actual WHM main on the dev staff as opposed to just ... whatever nonsense WHM is at this point.

I don't think I'm wrong in viewing it as past a point of no return, though. Losing its conjuring roots really diluted the job identity. Now all the clothing is sanctimonious and frilly and the spells are kitschy. It really just feels like "the girly job" as designed by men. And at this point the "who cares, you look cute" philosophy is just too ingrained in the job's design.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't WHM meta near the beginning of ShB because it's damage was so high? I know it's still one of the best healers for TEA, where it beats out two of the tanks in DPS. Plus all DRK mains love a WHM main lol. Again, not saying it's good now, or was fun to play then, just saying that even after the introduction of AST it still finds it's place.

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It was more down to SCH mains pretty much table flipping in disgust at what SE did to their gameplay loop whilst ASTs were left with chronic hand cramp from doing sleeve draw openers for a few hours of prog.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

It was more down to SCH mains pretty much table flipping in disgust at what SE did to their gameplay loop whilst ASTs were left with chronic hand cramp from doing sleeve draw openers for a few hours of prog.

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But it was also their damage, I remember the rumor going around that a PLD Clemency-ing was less of a potency loss than a WHM casting a heal.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

But it was also their damage, I remember the rumor going around that a PLD Clemency-ing was less of a potency loss than a WHM casting a heal.

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You also know that WHM was the least mobile healer and relied on healing getting hard-carried by their co heal, right?
WHM dps was strong in very specific scenarios: the party mitigated well and used what free heals they had, no oopsie-whoopsies during the run, the party was willing to plan around their turret (no, not the BLM, they were more mobile than WHM... by a lot)... oh, and you should bring a co heal that is both able and willing to carry the healing.
That allowed WHM to spam Glare while being able to ignore Lilies unless absolutely necessary for movement & Assize weaving.
Basically: have 7 people cater to the clunky pile of trash that WHM was and still is and WHM is competetive...for a glorious week or two.

And for the record: WHM still relies on the co heal carrying the healing.
Look at any high performing WHM and you'll notice there's a huge gap in healing in addition to very good party mitigation. The highest dps numbers are only possible with good mitigation, co heal carry and a bit of gear and it's still dead last.
But it's okay because we need an accessible, easy baby healer so it can't ever perform adequately in both dps and healing. No, sir.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

I don't disagree that WHM is the healer that needs the most care from the dev team at the moment, just was pointing out we don't need different job builds because we can just play a different job. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't WHM meta near the beginning of ShB because it's damage was so high? I know it's still one of the best healers for TEA, where it beats out two of the tanks in DPS. Plus all DRK mains love a WHM main lol. Again, not saying it's good now, or was fun to play then, just saying that even after the introduction of AST it still finds it's place.

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This idea of "boring simple jobs are fine because you can go play another job if you don't like it" is nonsense.

First you can't even guarantee you'll like the other jobs. You may hate AST and its clunky cards, rng and useless fluff buttons like Astrodyne and enjoy WHM's aesthetic and core design. But because you have more than one braincell and want to push a button more than twice a minute, you're meant to go play AST for your pure heal.
You can't guarantee your complex job won't be ruined for accessibility either. Many SMN mains used to enjoy the complexity and reward of their class. They never asked for it to become the window licking job and had no choice in the matter. You can't just kick a veteran who's enjoyed a class for years off their job, hand it over to Timmy who never asked for it and say "it's for the good of the game!". It's really not.

Second, the idea that some classes have to be braindead and have no skill cap to be accessible is rubbish. Especially in a game where the content itself is already accessible. Not only that, we have a lot of dps which are extremely easy to pick up but have good apm and lots of depth to master. Why can't this apply to healers and tanks? "Easy to learn, hard to master" has been a thing in gaming for years when it comes to class design, but all of a sudden ff14 players pretend it doesn't exist.

Third, and even worse is the idea that not only should some classes be braindead and accessible, they should now suck too to be fair. This is rubbing salt in the wound. Let's say you love the aesthetic of a job, then Enix comes along and rips the engagement away to hand it over to Timmy, then to kick you while you're down they tell you your job must be bad too. All you can do is play the class you hate if you care about contributing to your team.

The simple fact is that it has nothing to do with catering to casuals. Players who argue for simplicity just want an easy mode. They want a class that can clear hard content even if they're not good at the game and don't want to learn. Essentially they want a light version of a cheat code.
It's human. Cheat codes have been around for years and countless people use them. This is why people will argue against depth, because they don't want that taken away. They want to Glare and Medica II their way to p4s clears. But it doesn't mean it's good for the game. Stop arguing for it as "beneficial".

No WHM is not "the best healer in TEA". There aren't even 200 TEA parses for each healer this expansion or a full top 50 speed run yet. It was only good early ShB because AST started out bad and SCH scales better outside of early prog. Raid buffs scale so WHM will always drop as expansions progress. Living Dead is getting a rework soon, so DRK mains won't even care either. WHM has no place.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

You also know that WHM was the least mobile healer and relied on healing getting hard-carried by their co heal, right?
WHM dps was strong in very specific scenarios: the party mitigated well and used what free heals they had, no oopsie-whoopsies during the run, the party was willing to plan around their turret (no, not the BLM, they were more mobile than WHM... by a lot)... oh, and you should bring a co heal that is both able and willing to carry the healing.
That allowed WHM to spam Glare while being able to ignore Lilies unless absolutely necessary for movement & Assize weaving.
Basically: have 7 people cater to the clunky pile of trash that WHM was and still is and WHM is competetive...for a glorious week or two.

And for the record: WHM still relies on the co heal carrying the healing.
Look at any high performing WHM and you'll notice there's a huge gap in healing in addition to very good party mitigation. The highest dps numbers are only possible with good mitigation, co heal carry and a bit of gear and it's still dead last.
But it's okay because we need an accessible, easy baby healer so it can't ever perform adequately in both dps and healing. No, sir.

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I wasn't looking at the number one parsing WHM.. I was looking at speed kills. So it's not like the co-healer was a grey-DPS, everyone on the highest speed kills was 99 percentile.. Fun fact, this is about the same reason why people bring DRK's, cause they do a lot of damage, it's not like people love living dead or DRK's lack of sustain..

"But it's okay because we need an accessible, easy baby healer so it can't ever perform adequately in both dps and healing. No, sir." and I didn't say this at all?

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

This idea of "boring simple jobs are fine because you can go play another job if you don't like it" is nonsense.

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You can not like it, but it's the direction of the game. They have a hard time keeping 20 jobs balanced, you really want to trust SE with 20 Jobs plus multiple builds per job? No thanks. And if you don't like any job in FF, then don't play FF? I don't know what to tell you. You can't force your FAVORITE job to always be how you want it to be. There is a weird job identity that people have where their main is THIER job and SE ruined THIER job. It's no ones job minus SE's to do as they please, you can fight it, but good luck once they pick a direction.(RIP HW Tanks)

SE has always made some jobs easier than others.. this isn't a new concept. WHM is DESIGNED to be the entry level healer, just as PLD was designed to be the entry level tank(probably WAR now).

And idk where you have been, but this game has been catering to casuals since SB. The entire scaled down difficulty of this expansion that is felt was entirely due to SE scaling down the difficulty due to the recent influx of new players. There isn't even a dungeon in EW that has more than a two mob pack pull.

WHM being the best in TEA is subjective, it's the highest DPSing healer by a looooong shot, and is the only healer that can reliable grab all 4 jag dolls for the AoE burn.

In the end you are twisting my words mate. I never said WHM is perfect now, and never said it was perfect then. Stating the facts that it WAS meta for a while due to it's damage is just that, stating facts. I have even said on multiple occasions that it's the healer in most need of work by the devs.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

I don't disagree that WHM is the healer that needs the most care from the dev team at the moment, just was pointing out we don't need different job builds because we can just play a different job. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't WHM meta near the beginning of ShB because it's damage was so high? I know it's still one of the best healers for TEA, where it beats out two of the tanks in DPS. Plus all DRK mains love a WHM main lol. Again, not saying it's good now, or was fun to play then, just saying that even after the introduction of AST it still finds it's place.

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This makes no sense at all. Here's a metaphor for you - it would be like telling a customer that wants a chocolate cake that the customer should just take the vanilla cake right next to it. if the customer really wants a chocolate cake, make a good chocolate cake, don't try to convince him/her that vanilla is just as good. what's even worse, don't try telling that customer to order the vanilla cake because some stranger likes vanilla. You (might just) get that cake right in your face,

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

This makes no sense at all. Here's a metaphor for you - it would be like telling a customer that wants a chocolate cake that the customer should just take the vanilla cake right next to it. if the customer really wants a chocolate cake, make a good chocolate cake, don't try to convince him/her that vanilla is just as good. what's even worse, don't try telling that customer to order the vanilla cake because some stranger likes vanilla. You (might just) get that cake right in your face,

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While I don't want to disregard people who may *only* want play as one class, that is definitely not a point of appeal for XIV. And at least as far as my experience goes, it is extremely rare to encounter that sort of player.

Moreover, this analogy seems a bit underserving since the job design in XIV changes. Just because I liked vanilla PLD through earlier leveling doesn't mean I didn't switch for chocolate DRK when it became available. Just because I liked strawberry RDM in ShB doesn't mean the EW version ticks my job fantasy boxes. Right now, I voluntarily abandoned DRK and RDM because I am waiting on the next expansion to fill in holes I see in their design (as far as my personal job fantasy tastes go). And I'm okay with that because there are other jobs that appeal more to me in this current iteration of the game.

Put another way, in reality what you are describing is someone going into a Baskin Robbins wanting chocolate ice cream. Then, when discovering that they are out of chocolate ice cream because it melted on the way over, they instead to throw a tantrum or leave. It's somehow the store's fault that they have a very narrow and unadventurous palette, whereas most normal people either already like other flavors of ice cream that are in stock, or otherwise are open to trying new flavors.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

No thanks. And if you don't like any job in FF, then don't play FF?

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I used to laugh at these sorts of responses, but now I just feel contempt and disgust.

Day by day I find it harder and harder to respect this playerbase.

I hope it becomes more and more insular and cultlike, and watch the decay as players wonder what went wrong.

99% of this playerbase's defense of the game boils down to "your preferences are wrong". But bit by bit, more and more players' preferences will start to become wrong. It's honestly pathetic that the playerbase doesn't even realize why the wider MMO audience see it as a fanatical ring and regularly mock its insane and obsessive desire to white knight every facet of the game.

I wonder if people ever realize why so many of the descriptions of FF14's community are also words used for religion? Why do people describe FF14 players as "evangelizing", for instance?

No matter, it's not like anyone can pull a zealot away from its fervor.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

In WoW I PvP'd hardcore for years throughout Vanilla and early BC as a healing/support focused hybrid Shaman build. Once the focus switched to Arena, Resto Shaman was lacking compared to Druid and my EU to NA latency was the final nail in the coffin. My character was basically dead outside of dwelling on past glories by the Orgrimmar gate.

With FFXIV's job system, at least I have the option of switching to a more viable class where my latency wouldn't make things so unforgiving. With WoW I basically had to toss aside years of HKs, gear, titles and reputation if I wanted to be active again.

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And uh are you having fun with xiv pvp?

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I used to laugh at these sorts of responses, but now I just feel contempt and disgust.

Day by day I find it harder and harder to respect this playerbase.

I hope it becomes more and more insular and cultlike, and watch the decay as players wonder what went wrong.

99% of this playerbase's defense of the game boils down to "your preferences are wrong". But bit by bit, more and more players' preferences will start to become wrong. It's honestly pathetic that the playerbase doesn't even realize why the wider MMO audience see it as a fanatical ring and regularly mock its insane and obsessive desire to white knight every facet of the game.

I wonder if people ever realize why so many of the descriptions of FF14's community are also words used for religion? Why do people describe FF14 players as "evangelizing", for instance?

No matter, it's not like anyone can pull a zealot away from its fervor.

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I've been called many a thing, but never a zealot lol. It's just called being realistic(something I know you aren't too keen on), but it is how it is. Take away the emotion, and sticking with the logic of a buisness looking to make profit. You cannot make everybody happy, no matter how hard you try, so you make the majority happy as it rakes in the most profit. Good for the wallet, bad for the hardcore players usually, but almost every company does it. I don't care about SE, they aren't paying me, I just know how drastic changes due to certain complaints have lead to changes I have not enjoyed, so I try to find changes within reason from the aspect of a business, so that everyone is a little happier.(Forums killed Frontline enjoyment. Change my mind)

I loved HW DRK. It was super fun and engaging, but when SB hit, I disliked it, disliked all the tanks playstyle and went DPS when I realised why they chose that direction and knew they werent going back despite the countless forum posts. ShB dropped, GNB was a tank I enjoyed, been with it ever since till they take that in a direction I dont like or something more fun comes around(Corsair pls). Some people have some wild takes on what they want out of the game that won't ever happen, so it's easier and more realistic to compromise with the direction the devs are taking. If the direction is completely off its tracks, you show your frustration on the forums and show with your wallet by not playing. It hasn't come to that for me so I still play, but if its come to that for others, and you've tried everything you could, protest where it hurts a business the most is all I can say.

This isn't to say I DON'T want change. I think every job in the game could use some change, some way more than others for sure. Just know that SE has no obligation to make YOUR job play the way YOU want it, and highly expects people to play other jobs they find more enjoyable, as that is a key benefit to being able to play all jobs on one character. However, I do agree that healers should be given more DPS options more equal to that of their tank counterparts, as that is the direction the game has gone, far away from its traditional ARR trinity roots.

...jesus that's some dramatic reaction.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I used to laugh at these sorts of responses, but now I just feel contempt and disgust.
Day by day I find it harder and harder to respect this playerbase.
I hope it becomes more and more insular and cultlike, and watch the decay as players wonder what went wrong.

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...jesus that's some dramatic reaction and a half.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

99% of this playerbase's defense of the game boils down to "your preferences are wrong". But bit by bit, more and more players' preferences will start to become wrong. It's honestly pathetic that the playerbase doesn't even realize why the wider MMO audience see it as a fanatical ring and regularly mock its insane and obsessive desire to white knight every facet of the game.

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The only one who is interpreting it as such is you. It doesn't boil down to "your preferences are wrong", it usually boils down to people giving the advice of "if you have absolutely nothing you like in this game, maybe don't stress yourself mentally and don't play it if you simply don't like it". As much as criticism towards the game and the playerbase is welcome, take a step back and think if whatever change you advocate for is actually perceived as good by a significant portion of players. Additionally, check if problems your have with the game actually align with a significant portion of other players.

Lastly, consider how realistic whatever thing irks you to actually be acknowledged by the developers. There is indeed "White-Knighting", but there is also seeing a wolf in everything and crying about it.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I wonder if people ever realize why so many of the descriptions of FF14's community are also words used for religion? Why do people describe FF14 players as "evangelizing", for instance?
No matter, it's not like anyone can pull a zealot away from its fervor.

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Look, if you want to talk mad sh** about the community, at least prove something for once and cite sources about what you just claimed.