Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksenia

Why would you, Then you wouldn't have anything to complain about because lets be real. You don't want it to be harder, you want to brag about how you made it easy because you are all alpha crafter and stuff. I'm done with you now.

---

you people here on thread are such baby...

*cookies breathes*

butt hurt peoples: ohh no cookies is the worst evil elitistt player ever OwO

you people want hurt cookies every chance there is for you to have. stop it. you people need to grow up and stop bully one girl over something that is foolish. i think what problem is is that cookies trigger you all so you all want to witch hunt and be rude to her. hypocrites you all are here.

second. you are clown for telling person to nerf one self. only SQUARE ENIX can do. lol it also make me laugh. cookies was not bragging here. she just make statement that it too easy. you get trigger and say you done. grow up and stop be clown! you english people are most sensitive people on platform here. very weird people you are here

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

That's actually impossible. A max IQ 2000 control Great strides Excellent Brygots is almost 30000 quality with no Inno/Ingen and something like 70k with. The collectibles have a 40k bar. I've done a lot of manual crafting and know the output of Brygots very well.

Don't make things up to prove your point.

---

She is not making stuff up I have done sim runs with stats that low there is little margin for error. A measly 4 pts of cp could screw her over with control that low and I know this cause I got screwed by 8pts CP and my control is higher then hers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksenia

Why would you, Then you wouldn't have anything to complain about because lets be real. You don't want it to be harder, you want to brag about how you made it easy because you are all alpha crafter and stuff. I'm done with you now.

---

I.... wasn’t bragging, though? Instead of jumping to conclusions, you should look at the thread.....what is the point of this entire thread? I’ve just crafted for a long time, hardly anything is an issue for me. Whether it’s the new ability overhaul or Gil. Like I said, I’m looking for a challenge that isn’t an arbitrary rule made up by a forum poster that wants to jump on the “cookies is bad” band wagon.

I’m open for discussion. Not for a childish blurt out declaring I’m doing this for bragging rights....uh, no. If you can’t handle the heat, please kindly go to another thread. I believe if people are this upset by what I’ve said so far, that is an issue on their part and their personal inferiority complex issues. That has nothing to do with me, at all as a person. If I see more negativity, I ignore/block.

Makes life on the forums a “no biggie” thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

That's actually impossible. A max IQ 2000 control Great strides Excellent Brygots is almost 30000 quality with no Inno/Ingen and something like 70k with. The collectibles have a 40k bar. I've done a lot of manual crafting and know the output of Brygots very well.

Don't make things up to prove your point.

---

I have 2423 Control. 11 stacks of IQ with Inno and Ingen is giving me 16k quality on the lvl 80 Ishgard restoration recipes so good would be 1.5 times that ??? Excellent is topping out at 60k

It's not difficult and it's easily macroable with NQ materials though, yes.

Here's what I'm using :


/ac "Reflect" <wait.3>
/ac "Manipulation" <wait.2>
/ac "Ingenuity" <wait.2>
/ac "Innovation" <wait.2>
/ac "Delicate Synthesis" <wait.3>
/ac "Delicate Synthesis" <wait.3>
/ac "Delicate Synthesis" <wait.3>
/ac "Delicate Synthesis" <wait.3>
/ac "Ingenuity" <wait.2>
/ac "Waste Not" <wait.2>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/echo Macro #1 complete <se.1>


/ac "Innovation" <wait.2>
/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>
/ac "Preparatory Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>
/ac "Ingenuity" <wait.2>
/ac "Byregot's Blessing" <wait.3>
/ac "Basic Synthesis" <wait.3>
/echo Macro #2 complete <se.14>

I'm at 2448/2423/607 using HQ BB. I end with 33 CP spare.


edit : also there is plenty of slack in those numbers. 35000/40000 gets the full 58 scrips and 24000/40000 gets 43. The above macros finish with spare CP so you could close out with a couple of Careful Synthesis instead of the 1 Basic Synthesis, with Ingenuity up for both of them, allowing for lower Craftsmanship.

This is the ignorance I was talking about that borders on willfully obtuse. Don't mind disagreement but don't taint good logic with just putting words in someone's mouth. Where in that did I say players choose randomly?

I very clearly detailed where RNG is in the example and the player randomly choosing their own actions through pure RNG was not even implied.

I clearly explained that while a player has situational awareness to use for actions, they can at any point go against the grain for advantage or mix-up. There is the RNG that the opposing side deals with.

If you can't grasp this then forget it. I've read your other posts and this level of understanding matches up. Just wanted to make sure no one else fell for it.

^ Meant to quote Callinon. On mobile.

Honestly, I've found with the new Ishgard items that it really depends on if you get a poor proc on Byregot's or not. It definitely happens quite a bit. I've got several rotations that will get me 100% with NQ mats, but if I get a poor quality proc for Byregot's it ruins the whole thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryoutoshi

This is the ignorance I was talking about that borders on willfully obtuse. Don't mind disagreement but don't taint good logic with just putting words in someone's mouth. Where in that did I say players choose randomly?

I very clearly detailed where RNG is in the example and the player randomly choosing their own actions through pure RNG was not even implied.

I clearly explained that while a player has situational awareness to use for actions, they can at any point go against the grain for advantage or mix-up. There is the RNG that the opposing side deals with.

If you can't grasp this then forget it. I've read your other posts and this level of understanding matches up. Just wanted to make sure no one else fell for it.

---

Don’t bother. Some people just have a one track mind, no matter what you try to say to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

Honestly, I've found with the new Ishgard items that it really depends on if you get a poor proc on Byregot's or not. It definitely happens quite a bit. I've got several rotations that will get me 100% with NQ mats, but if I get a poor quality proc for Byregot's it ruins the whole thing.

---

That’s interesting. Still though, I was hoping for this to be harder even with max melds. I know the overhaul isn’t completely finished until 5.2, but this really makes me scared for 5.2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

Honestly, I've found with the new Ishgard items that it really depends on if you get a poor proc on Byregot's or not. It definitely happens quite a bit. I've got several rotations that will get me 100% with NQ mats, but if I get a poor quality proc for Byregot's it ruins the whole thing.

---

If anyone is unaware you can instantly stop any macro by running another macro. I keep one with just one line : /echo MACRO STOPPED . Pressing this instantly stops your macro if, for example, you proc a poor on BB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryoutoshi

I very clearly detailed where RNG is in the example and the player randomly choosing their own actions through pure RNG was not even implied.

---

Do you not understand what RNG means?

You used a bad example, and in your own post refute your argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mitsubashi

If anyone is unaware you can instantly stop any macro by running another macro. I keep one with just one line : /echo MACRO STOPPED . Pressing this instantly stops your macro if, for example, you proc a poor on BB.

---

Yeah, though its not even worth it that much. You only need 35k of the 40k possible for max scrips and I usually still hit above that even with a poor Byregot's. I modified my rotation a bit to add in a couple more prudent touches and I still end up with 100% with normal mats and about 25 cp left of 618. Without specialization, I'd still be good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilkAndChoco

you people here on thread are such baby...

*cookies breathes*

butt hurt peoples: ohh no cookies is the worst evil elitistt player ever OwO

you people want hurt cookies every chance there is for you to have. stop it. you people need to grow up and stop bully one girl over something that is foolish. i think what problem is is that cookies trigger you all so you all want to witch hunt and be rude to her. hypocrites you all are here.

second. you are clown for telling person to nerf one self. only SQUARE ENIX can do. lol it also make me laugh. cookies was not bragging here. she just make statement that it too easy. you get trigger and say you done. grow up and stop be clown! you english people are most sensitive people on platform here. very weird people you are here

---

We have been seeing this for 6 MONTHS!!!!
Challenge, they want crafting to give a challenge and they go out of their way to delete all challenge, Assume it's out of the box 'easy' when it isn't


For the record, Learn to read. I NEVER said she should nerf herself. But wave that pity flag. Play the victim. Do whatever it is you need to do to carry the belly ache forward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryoutoshi

This is the ignorance I was talking about that borders on willfully obtuse. Don't mind disagreement but don't taint good logic with just putting words in someone's mouth. Where in that did I say players choose randomly?

---

Right here:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryoutoshi

The main thing a player adds to a fighting game vs a bot is RNG.

---

I put no words in your mouth. I quoted you directly. Now I've done it twice.

I guess it's possible you don't know what RNG means so here you go:

Quote:

---

Random number generators
RNG.
RNG is a game term that is an acronym for "random number generator". Random number generators (or, more correctly, pseudorandom number generators) are algorithms used in computing when an outcome needs to be as random as possible.

---

If you used the wrong words here, that's on you. But you quite specifically said that players add a random factor to fighting games. And no.. player actions in fighting games are entirely deliberate.

Fighting games are actually just a horrible analogy here too. Crafting is a puzzle, not a battle. You can either solve the puzzle or you can't. In this game we also add stats to your character that define your capabilities as far as solving particular levels of this puzzle goes. But it's still just a puzzle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ksenia

We have been seeing this for 6 MONTHS!!!!
Challenge, they want crafting to give a challenge and they go out of their way to delete all challenge, Assume it's out of the box 'easy' when it isn't


For the record, Learn to read. I NEVER said she should nerf herself. But wave that pity flag. Play the victim. Do whatever it is you need to do to carry the belly ache forward.

---

Hi, Ksenia! How's the new server?

RNG does not equal difficulty. It's just a way to gate progress and give an illusion of difficulty. But gathering stuff and doing the same rotation praying it pops is not hard it's just annoying imo. Making crafting be more thoughtful and less easily macro'd and forgotten about I would be for though.

IMO, what they could do/could have done, is play with the Conditions a bit more. Instead of just Normal/Good/Excellent/Poor, they could instead make it, I don't know... make it condition of your mind while you craft...

Balanced: All actions are equal.
Perfectionist: +50% Quality, -50% Progress
Impatience: +50% Progress, -50% Quality
Shaking Hands: -30% success chance, +30% efficiency
Steady Hands: +30% success chance (finally a way to use Hasty Touch!)
Attentiveness: Action taken during this round does not cost durability.
Recklessness: Action taken during this round uses double durability but gives double the result.

And every round, the game picks these from random (you could put stat weights and other conditionals on some of them to prevent severe cheapness from happening). This would force you to choose your actions based on what state of mind your character is in. A macro would utterly fail with this sort of system unless the stars aligned just right, and each craft would be different and there would be no set rotation because you would have to react to what is going on, and plan for different possible scenarios.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

IMO, what they could do/could have done, is play with the Conditions a bit more. Instead of just Normal/Good/Excellent/Poor, they could instead make it, I don't know... make it condition of your mind while you craft...

Balanced: All actions are equal.
Perfectionist: +50% Quality, -50% Progress
Impatience: +50% Progress, -50% Quality
Shaking Hands: -30% success chance
Steady Hands: +30% success chance (finally a way to use Hasty Touch!)
Attentiveness: -50% durability loss (does not stack with Waste Not)
Recklessness: +50% durability loss

And every round, the game picks these from random (you could put stat weights and other conditionals on some of them to prevent severe cheapness from happening). This would force you to choose your actions based on what state of mind your character is in.

---

Sort of.. but it's really just adding more random factors.

I'm convinced that if the goal is to add difficulty to crafting, then some kind of wholesale redesign of the system is necessary. There just isn't any room for actual difficulty in the current system.

Now, that being said, I'm NOT convinced SE's goal is to add difficulty to crafting. I know there are people here who (vocally!) want it, but I'm not super sold on the idea that it's actually what SE wants to do.

About the only thing SE could do right now to at least discourage macro use is to have quality thresholds so unbelievably high that it'd just be actually impossible to reach it without fishing for condition procs. And I mean... I guess... but that'd make crafting gear upgrades feel pretty awful. I don't think there's a good solution to this.. certainly not a simple one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

Sort of.. but it's really just adding more random factors.

I'm convinced that if the goal is to add difficulty to crafting, then some kind of wholesale redesign of the system is necessary. There just isn't any room for actual difficulty in the current system.

Now, that being said, I'm NOT convinced SE's goal is to add difficulty to crafting. I know there are people here who (vocally!) want it, but I'm not super sold on the idea that it's actually what SE wants to do.

About the only thing SE could do right now to at least discourage macro use is to have quality thresholds so unbelievably high that it'd just be actually impossible to reach it without fishing for condition procs. And I mean... I guess... but that'd make crafting gear upgrades feel pretty awful. I don't think there's a good solution to this.. certainly not a simple one.

---

Not all RNG is bad.

Some RNG is good.

RNG is bad when the RNG dictates whether or not you win or lose (regardless of your inputs). But if you took the idea I presented and tailored it enough that with the right decision-making (along with some margin of error being allowed, less margin for endgame crafting), you should be able to succeed 90% of the time, then you'd end up with the good sort of RNG that does not dictate win/loss unless you get extremely unlucky.

The idea is to make it all based on decision-making based upon the current condition, with some planning, forethought, and contingencies if things go wrong. The skilled player will look ahead and know when it is safe to take a gamble, or when he should play it safe and not do so. The skilled player will know what actions to use under what conditions.

The unskilled player will make lots of mistakes, and end up with NQs and failed synths, which is how it should be.

They should simply allocate a different skill being unusable for each masterbook recipe. (leave 1-79 stuff as easy recipes with zero restrictions)

Not only will this remove globally usable macro's but it ensures a higher level of intimacy and knowledge of your skills (or just a macro for each and every situation).

"So you want to craft a shirt, well you have to go about it differently to the pants you just crafted, have fun"

It's literally the only challenging concept I can think of that they can add to the current state.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

fluff

---

You're just doing what you keep doing. Nitpicking wording to avoid the actual point being made.

I'm bored at work so let's see how specific someone has to be to prevent that.

It's good that you know what in-game RNG is. I had removed that part from my post where I explained how the fighting game analogy works with that because I figured this part was obvious. You see what happens when I give you the benefit of the doubt?

RNG is being used in the same loose way we all do when talking about it in games. In terms of fighting games, we are more talking about a literal "psuedo rng". Using the definition of psuedo: "not genuine; spurious or sham."

You are against someone. They have say 8 ways they can approach. You do not know what they will do. You, with whatever skill you may possess and understanding of their options, can perform actions that may cause the other player to perform an action for which you have a ready counter to reduce the options that can occur. Regardless, what they do is as far as you are concerned, is random.

You can nitpick that the mind itself is not random. But the definition of psuedorandom number generators you so helpfully placed here for all to see, says that it is an algorithm (a set of rules for solving a problem in a finite number of steps, as for finding the greatest common divisor.) Not random, but a reason based solution to simulate random. Similar to how a skilled player takes the mechanics and tools in a fighting game, and determines there actions to simulate a varied and, while not entirely unpredictable, unexpected but sequence of attacks and approaches to win.

Translate this to proc dancing in crafting. You've got enough cp for your finisher plus a little extra. A skilled crafter knows how to navigate their toolset to try and tease out extra chances for RNG to swing in their favor i.e, observe.

In regards to the overall mindset of tackling the issue: The 'psuedorandom number generator' in computing and the 'psuedo random nature of two opponents dealing with the numerous outcomes that can come from the player are a solid argument for the existence of skill in relation to crafting.

And when you examine the way both players reason through each situation, "Crafting is not a battle" as if resolving a player isn't just as much a puzzle as a battle is simply ignorance. Not stupidity. But ignorance: lack of knowledge or information.

^ I apologise for all the typos. Not paying to much attention between work and things. I'd edit it if I could.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

Not all RNG is bad.

Some RNG is good.

RNG is bad when the RNG dictates whether or not you win or lose (regardless of your inputs). But if you took the idea I presented and tailored it enough that with the right decision-making (along with some margin of error being allowed, less margin for endgame crafting), you should be able to succeed 90% of the time, then you'd end up with the good sort of RNG that does not dictate win/loss unless you get extremely unlucky.

The idea is to make it all based on decision-making based upon the current condition, with some planning, forethought, and contingencies if things go wrong. The skilled player will look ahead and know when it is safe to take a gamble, or when he should play it safe and not do so. The skilled player will know what actions to use under what conditions.

The unskilled player will make lots of mistakes, and end up with NQs and failed synths, which is how it should be.

---

Maybe. It'd need fleshing out and serious balancing to make sure the game can't simply screw you and present an impossible synth. That's my primary objection to just adding more random factors into the process. You should never be able to do everything right and fail anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JowyAtreides

They should simply allocate a different skill being unusable for each masterbook recipe. (leave 1-79 stuff as easy recipes with zero restrictions)

---

That's actually kind of interesting... except:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JowyAtreides

(or just a macro for each and every situation).

---

That is exactly what would happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryoutoshi

I still don't know what random means

---

Nothing in a fighting game is random (maybe the stage you're playing on). It's a terrible analog for crafting.

I think I know what you're trying to get at but you've really married yourself to the wrong analogy here.

The pants you're trying to stitch together aren't actively working against you, making decisions to try to thwart your plans, or planning their next move based on what they've seen so far. The pants are doing none of those things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

Maybe. It'd need fleshing out and serious balancing to make sure the game can't simply screw you and present an impossible synth. That's my primary objection to just adding more random factors into the process. You should never be able to do everything right and fail anyway.

---

I think we both agree on that, wholeheartedly.

It would take a lot of balancing, testing, and such, but I think if they were to succeed... it would be really nice. And fun, and engaging too.

Maybe they could use the DNC system in a way that will help HQ a difficult item via a buff for successfully sequencing based on need.

Example: Goldsmith Earring of Zodiark, requires 330,933 quality. If you sequence properly, you gain a super buff to quality on your next Touch ability within the next X turns. Or you can sequence so you gain a buff to your next Synthesis on items with steep Craftsmanship requirements. Etc.

Little quirks unique to individual items/item types that require mini-games on the initial successful craft. After you beat the challenge, you can macro as normal.

For some of you whining about my opinion on the matter, the same exact hardcore crafter from previous videos I’ve posted just made a video sharing his thoughts on Ishgard: https://youtu.be/qaoCejOCLbM

And uh, yeah, his thoughts aren’t much different from mine. Even though the hard stuff should be 5.2, this doesn’t really look good for the future. Just being honest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleanse

Maybe they could use the DNC system in a way that will help HQ a difficult item via a buff for successfully sequencing based on need.

Example: Goldsmith Earring of Zodiark, requires 330,933 quality. If you sequence properly, you gain a super buff to quality on your next Touch ability within the next X turns. Or you can sequence so you gain a buff to your next Synthesis on items with steep Craftsmanship requirements. Etc.

Little quirks unique to individual items/item types that require mini-games on the initial successful craft. After you beat the challenge, you can macro as normal.

---

Good idea, that would be cool. Doubt it’ll happen though.

Yoshi just posted on the matters crossworld effecting ishgard rest. and end game content for crafters. I am trying to get the link for the post as friend posted a screen shot of it..

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...498/image1.png

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...13#post5232513

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...13#post5232513

---

Just what I said.

Wait until Patch 5.2 and see what they do with Endgame Crafting and that they had no intention of "creating hard content until at least 5.2". I said that numerous times in this and other threads.

Seems like I was right.

Just wish they'd give some more info other than "more difficult recipes". They probably don't really know themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

Just wish they'd give some more info other than "more difficult recipes". They probably don't really know themselves.

---

or they don't want to accidentally reveal anything that would fuel more baseless and idle speculation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrWho2010

or they don't want to accidentally reveal anything that would fuel more baseless and idle speculation.

---

Like saying nothing stops that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrWho2010

or they don't want to accidentally reveal anything that would fuel more baseless and idle speculation.

---

The best way to do that is to explain what their plan is, and how they plan to accomplish it. Withholding information after giving a small tidbit is the absolute worst way to stop speculation.

you can't win in this situation. you reveal too early ppl are disappointed. you withhold information, ppl are disappointed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrWho2010

you can't win in this situation. you reveal too early ppl are disappointed. you withhold information, ppl are disappointed.

---

Except hard difficulty recipes have been wanted from competitive and/or serious crafters since 4.0. That’s 2+ years of no actual endgame content. So, in this situation, it’s actually better to say what’s going on. And I’m glad Yoshida basically confirmed that we will basically start seeing these difficult recipes Patch 5.2 and onwards.

He also indirectly confirmed that “difficult recipes” only apply to Ishgard Restoration only, so it’s probably very unlikely that these recipes apply to actual endgame crafting..only Ishgard. I’m still happy regardless. I’m like, super happy. My only concern is this:

The high difficulty recipe’s REWARDS. Will they be worth it? Or no? Cause, if the rewards aren’t at the very least, some super lewd bikini glam....no hardcore or competitive crafter will do it. I mean, I’m not going to compete on the leaderboards for some lame Title or shiny golden glamour Carpenter tool. Just being honest...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrWho2010

you can't win in this situation. you reveal too early ppl are disappointed. you withhold information, ppl are disappointed.

---

You realize what you're saying right?
You don't want them to reveal things because people may be disappointed.. well, how do you think people will feel about the system when it's dropped on them and they're disappointed? People aren't going to magically love it just because you didn't tell them anything for the last six months and only teased them on with a tagline (If they're disappointed by the concept and explanations, they're sure as heck gonna be disappointed in the release).

Rather than possibly being able to act on the disappointment of the gaming community, you instead lock everyone into having a possibly broken and/or just unenjoyable system dropped into their lap; But hey, at least they didn't disappoint us with their ideas before the release, that's something, right?

Seems like a few GMs got triggered over a glamour post me and a few others made....

Anyways, wanted to say that Materia Melding will likely become 100% guaranteed in the future. Just like how they did with desynthesis.

Hoping they just keep the current meld rates but permit burning extra materia to increase odds by however many materia are used (IE, a 5% chance can become 100% if you burn 20 materia for it).

To those that say RNG isn't fun

Check Poker games which I played by some time a lot for real money- it's all RNG but still famous people still are wining tournaments

The crafting should be fun, clearly SE lack any innovation and fresh thought