An open discsusion on the consequences of death

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Originally Posted by Visch

Look, I'm sorry you couldn't get into a good LS with you 75PUP/37DNC but some people want a feeling of actual accomplishment when they play the game. In my experience, anyone who even used the term "cookie cutter" was just looking for an excuse why their gear wasn't as good as other people. Something needs to be done to the death system to create any kind of feeling of urgency when playing at all. And it's pretty much confirmed it's going to happen so I don't understand why you're arguing about it.

Being able to solo to max level and kill these "NMs" (I wouldn't even compare them to ones in XI) is seriously a joke. I'm all for a "faster paced game" than XI but honestly XIV as it stands now is just way too easy in general. This is just one little part to making the game better.

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Way to assume things. First off I did level multiple jobs including the popular ones in FFXI because I enjoyed trying different aspects of the game which was the point I was trying to make, "trying new things". The way it's set up now people are experimenting, which is a good thing. I've no idea why you brought up gear because I was talking about jobs.

As for creating a "feeling of urgency" it can be done other ways. Like using skills at the right time to weaken the monsters or any other form of strategy that requires you to be on top of your game. Why does someone need a death penalty to get a sense of urgency?

Again the only thing it leads to is a time sink and cookie cutter ways of doing things. No one will want to try new things for fear of losing something.

Also what is with people wanting the penalty to gear upon death? This is another thing I don't get. Most of the community wanted cuts to gear damage which Square listened to. Now people are asking for gear to get damaged upon death? wut?

Party Member: Leader, What is our plan for this battle?

Party Leader: The plan is!..... Don't die. ^^

wow, this thread already have 53 pages, do you expect dev people to read all this long?

I think they will just look at the idea with many "like" ?

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Originally Posted by Alise

wow, this thread already have 53 pages, do you expect dev people to read all this long?

I think they will just look at the idea with many "like" ?

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I hope not because one could have gone through the whole thread and clicked the like button on any post that agreed with their point of view versus others who just posted but ignored the like button.

we don't actually die... its just a KO :(

I am against SP loss of any form - at least not at this moment in time. It isn't easy to gain back the SP you have lost if you are in surplus. And depending on how deep into surplus you are, it could take quite a few hours to gain all that you have lost. I am not interested.

The way the KO system works right now, with the death sickness, is fine. When end game rolls around, true end game, we will find these types of discussions to be moot and worthless.

XIV already has a stricter death penalty than most games out there currently because every death you get a penalty rather than 10 deaths later. Only killing mobs out in the world isn't ever going to give you that sense of urgency you are looking for.

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Originally Posted by PandaTaru

How can you feel accomplished for losing more time when you lost X amount of SP/EXP trying to kill this or that (h)NM?

Adding a Time Sink doesn't add anything to the "feeling of urgency". It just make you waste more time to get back a lost SP/EXP buffer.

I do agree the current NM (are they really?) aren't this challenging at all; however, instead of asking to add stupid time sinks, why not start asking for more challenging mobs? With a rage timer these fights would add the feeling of urgency you miss.

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They already have a rage timer...? Lol.

But, Yeah I agree that losing sp would be pretty much a time sink but in XI it made people have to exp on a job they already max out and served as a testing ground for many things. Now it's like you get a 50 job and you're done with it (although I'm sure later on there will be some kind of merit system).

If you look at the dev posts it seemed like it will just be gear damage you will have to worry about, not sp loss. I mean, it even says that it's to stop people from zombie attacking things. Because right now, say you're fighting dodore and someone dies it's like "oh well haha" they return and just come back, no worries at all. In XI if you died there was no way you're gunna homepoint unless you have no other option.

Put bluntly, yeah XI's system wasn't perfect, but you never really notice how changing one thing effects the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by CupDeNoodles

Way to assume things. First off I did level multiple jobs including the popular ones in FFXI because I enjoyed trying different aspects of the game which was the point I was trying to make, "trying new things". The way it's set up now people are experimenting, which is a good thing. I've no idea why you brought up gear because I was talking about jobs.

As for creating a "feeling of urgency" it can be done other ways. Like using skills at the right time to weaken the monsters or any other form of strategy that requires you to be on top of your game. Why does someone need a death penalty to get a sense of urgency?

Again the only thing it leads to is a time sink and cookie cutter ways of doing things. No one will want to try new things for fear of losing something.

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Because when you die now it doesn't mean anything. You can run right back and it's fine because your freaking homepoint is always 20 feet away from you. It's seriously a joke.

How does having to use any skill tactically create any seriousness of the situation when if you mess up you can just have a redo 3 minutes later?

Also, having exp loss in XI never stopped anyone from trying new things. I don't know where you're getting that from. It just made you see a lot quick that what you were doing isn't going to work lol. If you're going to do something that gets you killed why would it be good in the first place? Obviously if you're dying than you're doing something wrong here.

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Originally Posted by Visch

I mean, it even says that it's to stop people from zombie attacking things. Because right now, say you're fighting dodore and someone dies it's like "oh well haha" they return and just come back, no worries at all.

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Hate me all you want for using WoW as an example but world bosses had mechanics built in that didn't let you do that, it has nothing to do with the general death penalty system.

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Any player slain by Azuregos gets the "Mark of Frost". Azuregos periodically sends out an AOE pulse that freezes anyone with this mark into an ice cube. The mark cannot be removed in most cases; players with this are essentally out of the fight for 15 minutes. This debuff was introduced to prevent players from Corpse Running during the encounter.

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Don't penalise everyone because there was nothing stopping corpse zerging NM's.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Also, having exp loss in XI never stopped anyone from trying new things. I don't know where you're getting that from. It just made you see a lot quick that what you were doing isn't going to work lol. If you're going to do something that gets you killed why would it be good in the first place? Obviously if you're dying than you're doing something wrong here.

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How many people do you see trying something they have a good chance at failing but could still win if they know they are going get a harsh penalty for even trying without it being a sure kill? Have you ever tried deviating from farm status and pushing the limits of what you can do?

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Originally Posted by Visch

They already have a rage timer...? Lol.

But, Yeah I agree that losing sp would be pretty much a time sink but in XI it made people have to exp on a job they already max out and served as a testing ground for many things. Now it's like you get a 50 job and you're done with it (although I'm sure later on there will be some kind of merit system).

If you look at the dev posts it seemed like it will just be gear damage you will have to worry about, not sp loss. I mean, it even says that it's to stop people from zombie attacking things. Because right now, say you're fighting dodore and someone dies it's like "oh well haha" they return and just come back, no worries at all. In XI if you died there was no way you're gunna homepoint unless you have no other option.

Put bluntly, yeah XI's system wasn't perfect, but you never really notice how changing one thing effects the rest of the game.

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I meant the rage timer added to a challenging fight would give the "sense" you're looking for.


I just loved (and even loled loudly irl) at your argument about ranking up over and over the same job just for the purpose of getting a SP/EXP buffer. That time you lost getting the buffer you lost "experimenting" is time you lost ranking up another job to be more efficient and versatile in the HNM ls your in, or time you lost enjoying more other aspects of the game. Or even more time lost to experiment more stuff--
Sorry, take no offense I'm just speaking my mind right here, this argument is a complete fail. Nobody I knew in XI enjoyed getting buffer back. Even the most hardcore, really.

Merit is another thing and a good one as you can rank up your favorite job to "pimp it up"/make it stronger.

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[...]
say you're fighting dodore and someone dies it's like "oh well haha" they return and just come back
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The only reason people don't mind repsawning/returning, rather than are happy to die, is because of there is no severe penalty like there was in XI. And, that, would be time saved for a healer to focus on the main party if NM fights were to be more challenging. A lot can happen while you're casting a simple raise in a hard fight. Dodore is a 3~4 people fight without even using zombie attack method.



One of the things that come to my mind when I read what some people write when they ask for SP/EXP penalty upon death is nothing more than e-peen to later brag "look at these noobs, I don't care if I die and lose SP/EXP but they do. hahahhahaha"
(that's not for you Visch, just speaking in general of a feeling I got reading posts in this thread.)

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Originally Posted by Visch

Also, having exp loss in XI never stopped anyone from trying new things. I don't know where you're getting that from. It just made you see a lot quick that what you were doing isn't going to work lol. If you're going to do something that gets you killed why would it be good in the first place? Obviously if you're dying than you're doing something wrong here.

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What server(s) did you play on? You must have had the best server(s) in XI. I myself have only played seriously on 2 and both had plenty of scared paranoid players that only wanted the cookie cutter. There were so many times I had to level jobs I hated just to get a shot at something. Also being set back because some douche tank or healer thought it was cool to warp mid fight.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

I myself have only played seriously on 2 and both had plenty of scared paranoid players that only wanted the cookie cutter. There were so many times I had to level jobs I hated just to get a shot at something. Also being set back because some douche tank or healer thought it was cool to warp mid fight.

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True. Also harsh death penalties discourage socializationand grouping with people you don't know. It's doubtlss that people die a LOT because of action/lack of action by other people from which they have no fault. Without a harsh death penalty nothing stands in the way of grouping with someone i never met before. On the other hand with a harsh death penalty people would be much more wary before giving others a chance.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

What server(s) did you play on? You must have had the best server(s) in XI. I myself have only played seriously on 2 and both had plenty of scared paranoid players that only wanted the cookie cutter. There were so many times I had to level jobs I hated just to get a shot at something. Also being set back because some douche tank or healer thought it was cool to warp mid fight.

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This has absolutely nothing to do with FFXI having an exp loss, and rather with FFXI events being inconvenient to try.

Examples: Why take a <insert "weak" job here> to CoP when it took an hour just to get to the battlefield? Why try the battle with a suboptimal setup when you took two weeks to farm the Omega pop set? Why take random people you don't know and risk failure when you can only do <insert event here> 1-2 times per week? Why not bring the best you can, when you only have one try at the NM? etc.

I am actually opposed to losing exp when dying (as shown by my posts in this thread), however, don't be delusional, what you're describing would and will happen in FFXIV (or any online game) as long as events aren't easy to access or retry. There were always far more important things to lose than EXP (such as the key to the event or time).

Penalty upon death was usually the least important thing (from my experience) when it came to why things were done or not done.

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Originally Posted by solracht

This has absolutely nothing to do with FFXI having an exp loss, and rather with FFXI events being inconvenient to try.

Examples: Why take a <insert "weak" job here> to CoP when it took an hour just to get to the battlefield? Why try the battle with a suboptimal setup when you took two weeks to farm the Omega pop set? Why take random people you don't know and risk failure when you can only do <insert event here> 1-2 times per week? Why not bring the best you can, when you only have one try at the NM? etc.

I am actually opposed to losing exp when dying (as shown by my posts in this thread), however, don't be delusional, what you're describing would and will happen in FFXIV (or any online game) as long as events aren't easy to access or retry. There were always far more important things to lose than EXP (such as the key to the event or time).

Penalty upon death was usually the least important thing (from my experience) when it came to why things were done or not done.

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What you're stating does play into XI design flaw overall. A game that promoted party play and interactions yet adding features to go against branching out to that potentially good stranger. People that stayed just accepted xp loss because of their love of the game but that didn't stop the rage. I have met people that excelled in their "weak" job but still weren't given a chance in the end. Result? New players didn't even bother with the "weak" job so they wouldn't be an outcast.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

What you're stating does play into XI design flaw overall. A game that promoted party play and interactions yet adding features to go against branching out to that potentially good stranger. People that stayed just accepted xp loss because of their love of the game but that didn't stop the rage. I have met people that excelled in their "weak" job but still weren't given a chance in the end. Result? New players didn't even bother with the "weak" job so they wouldn't be an outcast.

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Took me a year and a half to get drk to 75, took me 2 months to get paladin to 75. Because people didn't want to help my drk with anything but seemed to jump to get a pld something he needed.

I genuinely sighed when I first learned there was no death penalty in FFXIV. As inconvenient as losing exp and even de-lvling was (in XI), it sure added tremendously to the excitement of many an adventure!

Would I like to experience those thrills again in XIV? Indeed I would!

If I was given the power right now to design the death penalty for XIV, would I replicate the rules from XI? No.

Personally, Id like to see a middle ground reached. But I dont believe its even the HC gamer in me that wishes for a "punishment", rather I see the game as it is now broken. There was something special about the res spell in XI, but not in XIV - for obvious reasons. Basically Id make it that dying would result in a small % of SP loss (with diminished returns for deaths while under res sickness). No de-lvling (that really, really, really annoyed me). And ofc, give res spells tiers, R1 to restore 50% of the penalty and top rank to dramatically reduce the penalty.

This would add risk/excitement to general adventuring, without being overkill, while avoiding being imbalanced. How nice for a high level passing by to stop and give a top tier res to fallen PC :) and since there is no de-lvling it means that at end content a top rank res would get you quickly back in the action, but if it had a high CD/MP cost, a healer would have to decide whether to use it (for that vital tank/healer/top or tactically best DD), or go 1 tier below top and have a somewhat noticeable gear damage impact. Also it means for brief periods of time during the lvling process, you could be cheeky and get off lightly if things go bad ^^

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Originally Posted by Abriael

True. Also harsh death penalties discourage socializationand grouping with people you don't know. It's doubtlss that people die a LOT because of action/lack of action by other people from which they have no fault. Without a harsh death penalty nothing stands in the way of grouping with someone i never met before. On the other hand with a harsh death penalty people would be much more wary before giving others a chance.

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I completely agree with this. After many a bad group in FF11 I got sick of grouping with people I did not know. In FFXIV I group with tons of people and am willing to test out new people I have never played with because if I die I dust myself off and try again. I am having a blast overall. But if SP/XP loss is implemented I doubt I will be doing much with Pick up groups anymore

The game does not need SP/XP loss. Yoshi's proposed system is better than what we have but not harsh enough to discourage grouping with new people.

I would go for something more along the lines of...

Impaired: A player becomes impaired when dying/being knocked out once. An impaired player receives a temporary penalty to statistics and cool-down timer of skills, this penalty persists for 3 minutes. (As is works now)
Weakened: A player becomes weakened when dying/being knocked while under the effects of Impairment. An impaired player receives a temporary penalty to statistics and cool-down timer of skills, this penalty is double the penalty a player receives while Impaired, this penalty lasts 4 minutes.
Crippled: A player becomes crippled when dying/being knocked while under the effects of Weakened. A crippled player receives a temporary penalty that makes it impossible to attack as well as use battle based spells or skills, this penalty lasts 5 minutes

Note the timers do not stack, they just get 1 minute longer each death in succession.

I actually like Yoshida's ideas on the death penalty. The only problem I see is this:

Conjurer: can I join your party?
Party Leader: sure! great, now we have a mage to raise us if we die, let's go!
Conjurer: but what about if I die? I'm squishier than you y'know ;_;
Party Leader: don't worry, we'll be careful
Later . . . archer pulls hate, tank can't keep hate, etc . . . conjurer dies
(it can be hard to avoid AOE attacks when the melees and the archers are playing mob ping-pong, particularly if you are trying to actually, y'know, cast)

With the new focus on smaller party sizes (especially the 4-person ones) I don't think it will always be practical to have 2 mages to raise each other in case of death. So if this idea is implemented, as a mage I'm sure gonna be pickier about who I party with unless there's another mage or two in the party. :p

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Originally Posted by Fleur

With the new focus on smaller party sizes (especially the 4-person ones) I don't think it will always be practical to have 2 mages to raise each other in case of death. So if this idea is implemented, as a mage I'm sure gonna be pickier about who I party with unless there's another mage or two in the party. :p

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This, I will be much pickier and might never gives retards second chance anymore because i dont like wasting my exp and time.

well its a bit early to be vowing to be "That guy" but whatever floats your boat.

edit: This is probably why wanna lean towards leniency.

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Originally Posted by Visch

T
Because when you die now it doesn't mean anything. You can run right back and it's fine because your freaking homepoint is always 20 feet away from you. It's seriously a joke.

How does having to use any skill tactically create any seriousness of the situation when if you mess up you can just have a redo 3 minutes later?

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You can balance this sort of thing with the encounter itself instead of the entire system, if its a boss monster in a dungeon just put a lock on the door that locks when you engage it or have the monster cause a debuff that gives it extra attack power against someone it just killed .



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ok here's one thing that a lot of people seem to be missing

A harsher death penalty is not going to make the monsters harder. They're still going to be pushovers until something is done to actually make them more difficult


double edit: I mean yeah we need consequences to death but good god guys, some people can punch that buffalo right in its mouth by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

A harsher death penalty is not going to make the monsters harder. They're still going to be pushovers until something is done to actually make them more difficult

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True, but today as an example. I did some leves where, frankly, I just didn't pay attention (granted they were screw around leves with friends just for something to do) and we ended up wiping four or five times. I didn't pay attention because, frankly, it didn't matter, so I just didn't care. This is something I never would have done in 11. In 11, when I wanted to screw around, it was going out and one-shotting rarabs in the name of vengeance. It wasn't against R30 leve mobs as a R12.

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Originally Posted by Fleur

I actually like Yoshida's ideas on the death penalty. The only problem I see is this:

Conjurer: can I join your party?
Party Leader: sure! great, now we have a mage to raise us if we die, let's go!
Conjurer: but what about if I die? I'm squishier than you y'know ;_;
Party Leader: don't worry, we'll be careful
Later . . . archer pulls hate, tank can't keep hate, etc . . . conjurer dies
(it can be hard to avoid AOE attacks when the melees and the archers are playing mob ping-pong, particularly if you are trying to actually, y'know, cast)

With the new focus on smaller party sizes (especially the 4-person ones) I don't think it will always be practical to have 2 mages to raise each other in case of death. So if this idea is implemented, as a mage I'm sure gonna be pickier about who I party with unless there's another mage or two in the party. :p

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Yoshida's ideas also includes tiered resurrection spells, which means that resurrection will be available at much lower levels than now. Pretty much anyone with a decent level on conjurer or thaumaturge will be able to ressurrect the mage, even if they're not playing mage themselves.
You can be sure that I will always have whatever resurrection I can get in bar, whatever class I might be playing. I actually enjoy resurrecting people and did it a lot in other games that gave me a chance to, even if I normally play tank characters.

Ah, the joys of the armory system that some can't seem to understand :D

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Originally Posted by origamikitsune

True, but today as an example. I did some leves where, frankly, I just didn't pay attention (granted they were screw around leves with friends just for something to do) and we ended up wiping four or five times. I didn't pay attention because, frankly, it didn't matter, so I just didn't care. This is something I never would have done in 11. In 11, when I wanted to screw around, it was going out and one-shotting rarabs in the name of vengeance. It wasn't against R30 leve mobs as a R12.

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If you don't care about wiping multiple times and making your whole group waste time because of you, the problem isn't in the lack of experience based death penalty. Sorry to burst a bubble.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

A harsher death penalty is not going to make the monsters harder.

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Some are so stuck in their antiquated systems that date back to DIKUmuds (and that almost every developer did away with because they're completely unnecessary and damaging) and delusions of hardcoreness that really can't seem to get this, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Yoshida's ideas also includes tiered resurrection spells, which means that resurrection will be available at much lower levels than now. Pretty much anyone with a decent level on conjurer or thaumaturge will be able to ressurrect the mage, even if they're not playing mage themselves.
You can be sure that I will always have whatever resurrection I can get in bar, whatever class I might be playing. I actually enjoy resurrecting people and did it a lot in other games that gave me a chance to, even if I normally play tank characters.

Ah, the joys of the armory system that some can't seem to understand :D

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I don't even see the reason to even have Raise in the current system. Anyone can just change a weapon or equip/unequip the skill to raise someone. Why waste a slot.

I'm assuming that it's something to be used only during a battle...or it's more or less a pointless skill. "I'm dead" change skill, raise, change back.

If any developer is thinking of bringing these spells in, they are either thinking of revamping the armoury system, or they're just making the same mistakes as their predecessor.

There's no reason to have a medic if anyone can make you feel as good as new in two-shakes of a strawberry shake.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

I don't even see the reason to even have Raise in the current system. Anyone can just change a weapon or equip/unequip the skill to raise someone. Why waste a slot.

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When you change a skill you have to wait for the cooldown. Resurrection doesn't exactly have a short one. That's why.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Some are so stuck in their antiquated systems that date back to DIKUmuds (and that almost every developer did away with because they're completely unnecessary and damaging) and delusions of hardcoreness that really can't seem to get this, isn't it?

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And some people who are stubborn in their opinion are completely unwilling to even try and see the other side's point of view. The other side is willing to find a middle ground to deal with, while you aren't even willing to budge one inch from your position that a death penalty is unnecessary.

So who is really more delusional here?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

And some people who are stubborn in their opinion are completely unwilling to even try and see the other side's point of view. The other side is willing to find a middle ground to deal with, while you aren't even willing to budge one inch from your position that a death penalty is unnecessary.

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The middle ground already exists. It's called "yoshida's proposals".
He already stated that they aren't planning any xp/sp related death penalty. The vast majority of the people that posted here (and in the other million threads opened by the nostalgics that just can't give up) already stated they don't want to even hear about that. The same goes for the japanese forums. The vast majority of game developers of the latest MMORPGs agree on that, and did away with it as well. This should easily give you a clear signal of the fact that experience based death penalty is an antiquated, roundabout and simply meaningless mechanic.

Someone already suggested how you can auto-impose a harsh death penalty to yourself in a quite creative way without trying to impose it on everyone else. Punch to the crotch, and everyone wins.

Trying to see your point of view doesn't mean agreeing with it, or thinking that it makes even the slightest sense.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

The middle ground already exists. It's called "yoshida's proposals".
He already stated that they aren't planning any xp/sp related death penalty. The vast majority of the people that posted here (and in the other million threads opened by the nostalgics that just can't give up) already stated they don't want to even hear about that. The same goes for the japanese forums. The vast majority of game developers of the latest MMORPGs agree on that, and did away with it as well. This should easily give you a clear signal of the fact that experience based death penalty is an antiquated, roundabout and simply meaningless mechanic.

Someone already suggested how you can auto-impose a harsh death penalty to yourself in a quite creative way without trying to impose it on everyone else. Punch to the crotch, and everyone wins.

Trying to see your point of view doesn't mean agreeing with it, or thinking that it makes even the slightest sense.

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Yes, Yoshi's proposal is a middle ground... but it's not the only solution, and it's far from the only idea. And a lot of Casuals don't even want to accept his proposal.

So why is his middle ground acceptable to talk about, but another option isn't? Why is it that some Casuals will accept his idea and not even give other ideas the time of day?

You have yet to prove a "vast majority" are against an SP/Anima penalty. Just taking a quick estimate from this thread alone, it'd say it's split about 50/50. A few people making a lot of posts =/= majority.

You made the claim that Japanese forums are the same. Link me a forum where you think the majority is against a SP/Anima death penalty. Because I haven't found one.

And your last two statements just go further to proving that you aren't willing to budge on your stance... you are crafting a straw man and you know it. People are not looking for individual flagellation. They recognize the need for a deterrent for dying FOR EVERYONE (Yoshi even recognizes this).

1. The "vast majority" does not read or post on this or any other forums, they play the game.

2. Hardcores are the minority everywhere now compared to the size of the player base.

I don't feel there needs to be any death penalty on every single death you have. I'm also not stuck on ideas of old where getting your corpse looted clean was the norm or gear being destroyed/dropping from dying. This is after playing and enjoying Lineage 2 for years where deleveling was part of the game.

There's plenty of other ways to make dying during a NM battle cause problems that won't screw up everywhere else that were already posted in this thread. You claim everyone isn't meeting you halfway but then discard other ideas that don't involve the general penalty for dying on things that matter.

How much fun do you think I was having as a main DoL that I couldn't do my leves because I was getting killed by an NM that was sitting on the nodes?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Yes, Yoshi's proposal is a middle ground... but it's not the only solution, and it's far from the only idea. And a lot of Casuals don't even want to accept his proposal.

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It's the idea that will be implemented. Maybe it's time to give it up instead of just continuing to grind on the nostalgia for a concept that almost every developer scrapped, with reason.

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So why is his middle ground acceptable to talk about, but another option isn't? Why is it that some Casuals will accept his idea and not even give other ideas the time of day?

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Because his idea is not an unreasonable timesink with absolutely zero positive effects. XP/SP death penalty is. Not only it doesn't add anything to the fun factor of the game (which is what counts), but actually detracts from it, triggering frustration in people that don't have tons of time to pour into the game and can take timesink in stride for the sake of defining themselvs "hardore"

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You have yet to prove a "vast majority" are against an SP/Anima penalty. Just taking a quick estimate from this thread alone, it'd say it's split about 50/50. A few people making a lot of posts =/= majority.

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You must be reading very selectively. The people making "a lot of posts" are mostly people continuously arguing in favor of XP/SP death penalty that just seem not to be able to let go.

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You made the claim that Japanese forums are the same. Link me a forum where you think the majority is against a SP/Anima death penalty. Because I haven't found one.

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I linked it. Maybe you just ignored it. Besides, if you're so good at reading japanese I can't fathom how you managed to miss it since it's in the dev tracker AND in the most logical place to look for (battle systems forums), with the most logical title "about death penalty". Maybe you just looked into the general discussion forum, assuming that the Japanese are like us and just dump everything in the general discussion forum ignoring the specific ones we've been given?

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And your last two statements just go further to proving that you aren't willing to budge on your stance... you are crafting a straw man and you know it. People are not looking for individual flagellation. They recognize the need for a deterrent for dying FOR EVERYONE (Yoshi even recognizes this).

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So people should be willing to budge because you say so? Sorry. Doesn't work like that.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

2. Hardcores are the minority everywhere now compared to the size of the player base.

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Undeniable truth, and this game has been explicitly publicized as casual-friendly.

Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but what if death will automatically reduce your gear to a 0% damaged state and that when damaged, gear will actually greatly hinder your fighting abilities.

For example if your weapon is damaged, your actions effectively do 0 damage. With damaged armour and accessories, they would actually hinder your stats, stamina or HP/MP like say, reduce your hp/mp to 1 if all your body piece is damaged or make you move as if under the effect of gravity if your shoes or pants are damaged for example. Of course, you may say "People would just take off their weapons, armour and accessories!" in which case, it could just be made so that damaged weapons, armour and accessories can't be removed until it is repaired to good condition.

Some reasons I think this would be a good solution are:

-It would provide a good reason to fear death as it effectively disables you as an adventurer/party member until you can get to a repair NPC that would charge exorbitant prices or find a crafter to repair for you. (Of course, in this case, it would be nice if it was changed so crafters can repair gear that someone is currently wearing)

-It would provide good reason to keep your gear in tip-top shape at all times and will likely bolster the usage of repair wards.

-It would provide good reason to wait for the Raise benefits as described by Yoshi-P instead of simply choosing to return to homepoint.

-It suggests a more realistic cause and effect of being beaten to death as well as consequences of using damaged gear. (ie. Broken weapon doing 0 damage is like trying to slice through tough hide with a dull blade. Damaged armour no longer protects you, damaged pants hinders movement.)

-It gives the abilities like Ashkin Eluder much more purpose to all classes, especially DoL and DoH classes.

I wanna try to give a simple suggestion.
I don't like harsh penatlies for death or exp loss, but this is my idea of game, and I think everyone should find what they search. What do you think about a different server(s) with exp loss/time sink/whatever you want, and others without? The player knows, the player choose where to go, everyone is happy. Am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Yes, Yoshi's proposal is a middle ground... but it's not the only solution, and it's far from the only idea. And a lot of Casuals don't even want to accept his proposal.

So why is his middle ground acceptable to talk about, but another option isn't? Why is it that some Casuals will accept his idea and not even give other ideas the time of day?

You have yet to prove a "vast majority" are against an SP/Anima penalty. Just taking a quick estimate from this thread alone, it'd say it's split about 50/50. A few people making a lot of posts =/= majority.

You made the claim that Japanese forums are the same. Link me a forum where you think the majority is against a SP/Anima death penalty. Because I haven't found one.

And your last two statements just go further to proving that you aren't willing to budge on your stance... you are crafting a straw man and you know it. People are not looking for individual flagellation. They recognize the need for a deterrent for dying FOR EVERYONE (Yoshi even recognizes this).

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Everyone has to keep in mind that what "casual" means to you means something completely different to me and other individuals. I find Yoshi-san and his team idea on how to approach death in the game reasonable and fair. I am a very casual gamer and I approve of it. If there are ideas that are comparable to what he has on the table that doesn't kill my game time, I am all for it. Reading through out all the posts here I have yet to see something comparable in my opinion.

In my previous post, SP loss should stay out of the picture. If SP loss is a must down the road, the surplus system must be well balanced or gotten rid of altogether. With surplus in place, forget it. No one should be advocating a SP death loss system in the meantime. No... one.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

It's the idea that will be implemented. Maybe it's time to give it up instead of just continuing to grind on the nostalgia for a concept that almost every developer scrapped, with reason.

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No, it's the idea he's thinking of implementing. There's a big difference.

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Because his idea is not an unreasonable timesink with absolutely zero positive effects. XP/SP death penalty is. Not only it doesn't add anything to the fun factor of the game (which is what counts), but actually detracts from it, triggering frustration in people that don't have tons of time to pour into the game and can take timesink in stride for the sake of defining themselvs "hardore"

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HA! Now you've lost all credibility. "Not an unreasonable timesink with with absolutely zero positive effects"? What else do you call armor damage that will cost you gil or materials? His idea is just another timesink as well. It isn't "positive" reinforcement either. And the problem with his idea is that Gil is so worthless at the moment, it will not discourage death at all (which is the point for a death penalty). You don't have an argument here.

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You must be reading very selectively. The people making "a lot of posts" are mostly people continuously arguing in favor of XP/SP death penalty that just seem not to be able to let go.

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Again, now you're spouting nonsense. I could say the exact same thing about the people continuously arguing against SP penalty. Like I said, it's a pretty split issue. It's about 50/50 on the issue.

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I linked it. Maybe you just ignored it. Besides, if you're so good at reading japanese I can't fathom how you managed to miss it since it's in the dev tracker AND in the most logical place to look for (battle systems forums), with the most logical title "about death penalty". Maybe you just looked into the general discussion forum, assuming that the Japanese are like us and just dump everything in the general discussion forum ignoring the specific ones we've been given?

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Yeah, I found it... no thanks to you. I don't know where you linked it. And guess what? It's pretty split over there as well. The "majority" isn't against it... there are just as many in favor of SP penalty as against it. Quit making assumptions based on your own wants.

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So people should be willing to budge because you say so? Sorry. Doesn't work like that.

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No, people should be willing to discuss and compromise because it's what you do when you can't agree on something. I bet you were one of those kids that always had to get his way and cried when he couldn't, or cried when he had to share his toys. Nobody taught you the value of sharing and compromise.

whoa chill out guys.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

personal attacks and insults

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You need to chill mate. It's quite obvious by the aggressiveness of your posts that you cannot let go of this outdated and surpassed mechanic. Funny thing is that you talk about "compromising".
If your idea of compromising is attacking your counterpart on the personal level, I'll be glad to opt out.

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No, it's the idea he's thinking of implementing. There's a big difference.

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If you think he's going to go back to a penalty that will introduce any more frustration in a game that already is full of timesink and frustrating aspects for many players, when most other game developers have done away with that mechanic, i see a big delusion here.
Yoshida aims to keep his players and bring back others, not to alienate more.

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HA! Now you've lost all credibility. "Not an unreasonable timesink with with absolutely zero positive effects"? What else do you call armor damage that will cost you gil or materials? His idea is just another timesink as well. It isn't "positive" reinforcement either. And the problem with his idea is that Gil is so worthless at the moment, it will not discourage death at all (which is the point for a death penalty). You don't have an argument here.

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Luckily, it's not for you to decide who is credible or who has an argument. You seem to have missed the word "reasonable". The fact that gil is very easy to get is exactly what makes the penalty reasonable, as it doesn't hamper the player excessively and doesn't cause frustrations in the ones that don't have as much time to pour in a game as you do.

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Again, now you're spouting nonsense. I could say the exact same thing about the people continuously arguing against SP penalty. Like I said, it's a pretty split issue. It's about 50/50 on the issue.

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Not really, it's not. You must have a quite selective reading (not really surprising, as you didn't even notice when I posted the Japanese thread after you asked and couldn't find it yourself). There are very few people arguing for an sp-related penalty, exactly like here.

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Yeah, I found it... no thanks to you. I don't know where you linked it. And guess what? It's pretty split over there as well. The "majority" isn't against it... there are just as many in favor of SP penalty as against it. Quit making assumptions based on your own wants.

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I don't need to make assumptions. I just need to read. And I linked it where you asked.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ll=1#post62871
Looks like your reading is quite selective-

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No, people should be willing to discuss and compromise because it's what you do when you can't agree on something. I bet you were one of those kids that always had to get his way and cried when he couldn't, or cried when he had to share his toys. Nobody taught you the value of sharing and compromise.

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You seem to forget something. It's not *for us* to decide what is to be implemented (as much as you seem to think that talking loudly and aggressively will get your opinions considered more). So it's not for us to find compromises and mediations. We're here to express our opinion, and then the team will consider and filter it, implementing what's good for their vision of the game, and discarding what's bad. It's quite evident from Yoshida's post that they've already discarded what's bad: SP/XP based death penalty.

I just want to say that I really like the idea of the anima penalty. Gives us a good incentive to not die, without hampering character progress.

I think this is another PvP vs PvE,Jump vs No jump, etc etc etc , thread.
Like i said in the other thread the only viable options for the dev team is,
Make a Poll.
Do whatever they think is right.

People have their tastes in games as diverse as colors.Discussing How should ffxiv should be is hard , everyone will want what they like even if it means to F*** over others choices.

game needs a freaking direction.

Remove ability to leech SP while dead. When you die, you can still get SP and EXP if player nearby kill the mob. This will be enough to add to penalty.

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Originally Posted by Synthesis

Remove ability to leech SP while dead. When you die, you can still get SP and EXP if player nearby kill the mob. This will be enough to add to penalty.

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Not really fair. Most of the times if you die you're not "leeching", as most of the times, if you die in a group, it's not really your fault (which is another of the reasons why death penalty should not be harsh).