So Second Coil has been destroyed

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Originally Posted by Izsha

The rational people in the middle will note their grievances but eventually get over it.

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I was over it being in T5 before 2.2 was even out and just echo mentioned. My only issue at this point is how dead will all the Turns be post expansion unless SE enforces it being recycled into a requirement for something new. We have already seen this with the relic line of quests... I'd like to see a better approach or incentive for recycled content especially content extremely aged. Expansions always bring in new players and returning players.

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Originally Posted by polyhedral

Awwww, the run sellers will have to lower their prices now, maybe even lose a lot of business in the process.

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Bingo! That is why they come out with so much hate. The OP is a self-professed clear seller. SE knows that making the game more accessible and more inclusive is the right thing. If they don't want these nerfs, all the people need to do is be more willing to teach newer players how to clear them. Join those learning parties and help them clear, so to SE it looks like people are clearing at a reasonable pace. If that is maintained SE will not make the adjustments.

I cleared T7 a month ago and then my static fell apart. I'm with a new static now, but they just want to work on T9. I got more experience in T9 than I do in T8 which is kind of funny. But when I tried to help people with T7, I spent more time waiting on the PF, and sometimes never even get going. And since I main a SMN, so I almost always get stuck with kite duty. These adjustments hopefully will make T7 more widely available for everyone and I would be able to help in more ways than just kite duty.

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Originally Posted by MrLeonheart

It's called Wildstar, and it's terrible.

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Actually this is false with people stop playing due to end game, wildstar had even bigger issues outside of raiding that people stopped playing, the optimisation, other stuff to do, the playstyle might not of been peoples cup of tea, even in wow, the amount of people that leave cos they cant clear normal mode is very minimal, most people stop playing is due to they find something else they prefer or just retire cos theyve been playing mmos for 10-15 years.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Bingo! That is why they come out with so much hate. The OP is a self-professed clear seller. SE knows that making the game more accessible and more inclusive is the right thing. If they don't want these nerfs, all the people need to do is be more willing to teach newer players how to clear them. Join those learning parties and help them clear, so to SE it looks like people are clearing at a reasonable pace. If that is maintained SE will not make the adjustments.

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Oh god, it's you.
Everything you just said is silly. There are SO many people that teach newer players how to do these fights. Everyone on these forums likes to rant and rave about how no one ever does any learning parties but they actually are doing them on the servers. I promise you, they are. I can't join every single one of them. The veterans of these fights shouldn't have to join them all either just to help them through.

SE will not care and they will make adjustments regardless of everything you just said.

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Originally Posted by Rocco

The problem I see with FFXIV and other MMO's is that their end game is basically raiding and or instance dungeons, and when that's it we get a lot arguing because one group wants it hard and the other wants it easier. What FFXIV needs is other types of progression, not just running dungeons or raids, but other ways to progress. I can't tell you what that is, but I'm not the one getting paid to come up with it.

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If people had more than one raid to look forward to every 7 months you'd probably see less complaints from raiders about nerfs, alternatively if people who didn't raid had more content to do other than sitting around being sad about not being able to raid because it's too hard/exclusionary playerbase as a result of it being too hard you'd see less complaints from them too. Regardless of whether you raid or not, Coil is basically what is looked forward to in terms of "This is what I have left to do" by most players I feel which is why it's problematic. The "peak" so to speak of content in this game is too narrow, it's reached too soon by people who dedicate to raiding but it's not big enough to accommodate both them and the people who "look-up" towards that content.

The obvious solution would be to just add more content for both groups, but I'm afraid that come expansion it'll just be a continuation rather than an expansion of past content trends.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

If people had more than one raid to look forward to every 7 months you'd probably see less complaints from raiders about nerfs, alternatively if people who didn't raid had more content to do other than sitting around being sad about not being able to raid because it's too hard/exclusionary playerbase as a result of it being too hard you'd see less complaints from them too. Regardless of whether you raid or not, Coil is basically what is looked forward to in terms of "This is what I have left to do" by most players I feel which is why it's problematic. The "peak" so to speak of content in this game is too narrow, it's reached too soon by people who dedicate to raiding but it's not big enough to accommodate both them and the people who "look-up" towards that content.

The obvious solution would be to just add more content for both groups, but I'm afraid that come expansion it'll just be a continuation rather than an expansion of past content trends.

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Amen! This literally right here is the damn truth. People never complained about endgame being anything in FFXI. There was SO much to do regardless of that content.

I just did T6 again, and Im not sure why people keep saying you can just attack through blighted now, because I tried and 3 of us went from full to death in an instant.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

.... I promise you, they are. I can't join every single one of them. The veterans of these fights shouldn't have to join them all either just to help them through.
....

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You don't have to join all of them all the time. But if people take the attitude that they will try to help instead of selling clears, and if they helped enough players thru then SE will see that from their data and make smaller and/or fewer adjustments. Considering that not everyone has cleared T5, but compared to SCoB, there is enough player knowledge out there and a few rounds of PF and DF people can clear T5 now and recruiting player to help with T5 is far easier to get in comparison, and clear seller have basically abandoned selling T5 clears. So SE is only adjusting SCoB so it can be like T5, and obviously they haven't messed with T5 anymore means that this what they are happy with.

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I think the best comparison to the changes made in these turns comes down to this:

Imagine Titan EX, but landslide cannot knock you off. That is what people dislike, that is why people hate the changes made to second coil.

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Good. "removal from fight" mechanics are lame anyway.

They were potentially interesting in single-player FFs because you were still actually in control of all the characters. Not so much in a game like this where each character is controlled by an individual player.

Should have upped the buff by 5% gradually and then at 20% changed the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Amen! This literally right here is the damn truth. People never complained about endgame being anything in FFXI. There was SO much to do regardless of that content.

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Meh, for a US player it wasn't an issue due to the leveling curves and horizontal progression which made older content last longer. For many US players it took about a year to reach their 1st 75. When they did, many of us early birds had already started and figured out Sky God strats. Dynamis can fall under it as well, many of us spent so many hrs figuring out pull and boss strats that made life easier for others just hitting 75. Back then the Japanese really didn't share much info at all and they had earlier access to the content.

Different times and a different approach.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

I just did T6 again, and Im not sure why people keep saying you can just attack through blighted now, because I tried and 3 of us went from full to death in an instant.

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Haven't tried it myself yet, but if people have been swallow'd before Blighted then I imagine it hits a bit harder. Also if you really want to prevent the damage, Adlo + Sacred Soil would make it even more trivial. But since the general consensus is that you can attack during Blighted, then I think there's something inconsistent about your attempts.

I ate an entire bag of popcorn. This thread is so entertaining!

See you guys when FCoB gets nerfed!

Two food for thought items:

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Bingo! That is why they come out with so much hate. The OP is a self-professed clear seller. SE knows that making the game more accessible and more inclusive is the right thing. If they don't want these nerfs, all the people need to do is be more willing to teach newer players how to clear them. Join those learning parties and help them clear, so to SE it looks like people are clearing at a reasonable pace. If that is maintained SE will not make the adjustments.

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You keep speaking about being inclusive about everything but by your own reckoning, you would rather exclude all those "elitest clear selling trolls" from the entire game if you could.

...think about that, please.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

I cleared T7 a month ago and then my static fell apart. I'm with a new static now, but they just want to work on T9. I got more experience in T9 than I do in T8 which is kind of funny. But when I tried to help people with T7, I spent more time waiting on the PF, and sometimes never even get going. And since I main a SMN, so I almost always get stuck with kite duty. These adjustments hopefully will make T7 more widely available for everyone and I would be able to help in more ways than just kite duty.

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I would recommend instead of just you ALONE helping people, you should consider getting a small group of people to go and help people. Having three people (one tank, one healer, one DPS or two tanks and one healer) goes a long way at getting PFs filled faster. If you can get a small AND core group together to help, I'm pretty sure you'll get more bites then waiting on hours at end and be able to facilitate more people.

All this could have been avoided if they had implemented different difficulties right from the start, I think WoW does something similar though I don't really know the specifics, each with their own lockout.

Easy/Story difficulty: echo +20-30% and current nerfs, no drops whatsoever, possibly exclude the last turn from this tier.
Normal: no echo but current nerfs, only one chest per turn, possibly no gear enhancing items whatsoever.
Hard: no echo, same mechanics as before the nerfs, same amount of drops as we have now.
Savage: no echo, same mechanics as current Savage, possibly 3 chests per turn and/or one extra gear enhancing item.

Maybe Heavensward could do something like this, and also maybe have more than one relevant piece of endgame content.

I like Rori's idea! :D

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

...
I would recommend instead of just you ALONE helping people, you should consider getting a small group of people to go and help people. Having three people (one tank, one healer, one DPS or two tanks and one healer) goes a long way at getting PFs filled faster....

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Let them eat cake too. Beautiful. I would love to be able to do that, but I can't even get people agree here to just take the attitude to help people once in a while when they can, hardly require them to do anything but change the outlook. How do you suppose I can round up people to join to learning PFs? Those tanks and healers are always in demand and never have enough around. I switch to healing a lot of the times just so I can fill the healer spot and help people make a go at it, but it T7 they are missing the kiter and I get stuck kiting. Heck I've even tanked T7 when I know I am a terrible tank, but they were short a tank, and the renauds were running lose and people were being stoned all over the place.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Heck I've even tanked T7 when I know I am a terrible tank, but they were short a tank, and the renauds were running lose and people were being stoned all over the place.

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Shoulda just had em put you as MT. Even the worst tank could MT T7 in their sleep.

Yep... I saw the nerfs, and heard about them. Makes me sad, it wasn't even that hard. Just took learning the fight, and a little bit of patience. Heck several people in our static had full time jobs, we only were able to run 2 hours a day for 3 days out of the week and we made it to T9 easy.

Just took A LOT of wipes, learning and understanding mechanics.

Outright invalidating the mechanics really ruins the fight. Makes me sad newbies will continue to be softened and when they try to do the latest content they'll get utterly owned because the difficulty curve just shot up a ton.

Echo alone would have been enough, these nerfs are overkill.

I agree it's hard to get a group for t9 currently which sucks but it's not impossible to learn. If you try hard enough and you go in thinking "I know I suck but I will get better" you can accomplish anything.

Accept that you fail at your job, accept that you aren't as good at the game as you think you are. And then you can become so much greater than you could have ever imagined.

It just takes patience and hard work.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

things

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Oh dear, she's back.

I can't wait for her to stop replying in this thread as soon as she gets cornered, as happened here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...at-T5%21/page8

Going to be fun :D

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Let them eat cake too. Beautiful. I would love to be able to do that, but I can't even get people agree here to just take the attitude to help people once in a while when they can, hardly require them to do anything but change the outlook. How do you suppose I can round up people to join to learning PFs? Those tanks and healers are always in demand and never have enough around. I switch to healing a lot of the times just so I can fill the healer spot and help people make a go at it, but it T7 they are missing the kiter and I get stuck kiting. Heck I've even tanked T7 when I know I am a terrible tank, but they were short a tank, and the renauds were running lose and people were being stoned all over the place.

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That's unfortunately a challenge you'll need to solve. As has been spoken of before, networking. You need to be able to find like minded individuals that suit your time and schedule. Join EX Primal practice runs, talk with people, see if they're interested in teaching new people. Start small, get that tank and healer, then build from there. Let it be known your goals. There's already one other person who agrees with your sentiment - his name is polyhedral - the person you quoted. You don't need to entire world to see your desire, just two or three people and go from there.

There are several people on the forums that share your sentiment, just a matter of talking with them, maybe ask them to join you on your journey to help. Ya never know unless ya ask.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

You can now ignore almost all the mechanics and still win. How is this fun? Enjoy your hollow victory with all the teeth pulled from the big baddies.

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You knew it was going to happen. Before the game even came out the developers told you it was going to happen. It already HAS happened for first coil. How did you not see this coming, and why are you complaining about it? You had your time with the content, move on and let those who were unable to do it before have a crack at it. For the record, anyone who cares about the challenge of it has already cleared it. Just FYI and all. Anyone who was waiting for the nerf that you should have seen coming, but somehow didn't, either just wants the story, or wants glamor gear. It's no longer where people go to get the best of the best gear, so why should the content remain unaccessable to many?

"Faceroll easy"

6 wipes on Turn 6 DF, went in with 1 healer and 4 DPS and picked up other healer and tanks. we were treated like shit for not having cleared before and each time we got MUCH farther than the last.

So yea. "Faceroll easy" I think not. Easier, yes. But I am thankful for that much when I make a group of friends 100%

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Originally Posted by Roris

All this could have been avoided if they had implemented different difficulties right from the start, I think WoW does something similar though I don't really know the specifics, each with their own lockout.

Easy/Story difficulty: echo +20-30% and current nerfs, no drops whatsoever, possibly exclude the last turn from this tier.
Normal: no echo but current nerfs, only one chest per turn, possibly no gear enhancing items whatsoever.
Hard: no echo, same mechanics as before the nerfs, same amount of drops as we have now.
Savage: no echo, same mechanics as current Savage, possibly 3 chests per turn and/or one extra gear enhancing item.

Maybe Heavensward could do something like this, and also maybe have more than one relevant piece of endgame content.

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This is how it should be done. I hope the devs read this.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

I switch to healing a lot of the times just so I can fill the healer spot and help people make a go at it, but it T7 they are missing the kiter and I get stuck kiting. Heck I've even tanked T7 when I know I am a terrible tank, but they were short a tank, and the renauds were running lose and people were being stoned all over the place.

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Huh I was under the impression you only had a bard, in certain other thread you gave a reply loaded with hopelessness as if there's nothing else you could do to prevent it, how come you didn't mention queueing as a healer or tank there? (or in any of the other threads you also argued about the same)

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

What is 1 bard going to do other than wait outside the boss room for the 1st-timer. That is all I can do while I witness all the speed running shenanigans going on.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

"Faceroll easy"

6 wipes on Turn 6 DF, went in with 1 healer and 4 DPS and picked up other healer and tanks. we were treated like shit for not having cleared before and each time we got MUCH farther than the last.

So yea. "Faceroll easy" I think not. Easier, yes. But I am thankful for that much when I make a group of friends 100%

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Faceroll doesn't necessarily mean that you can do it without any prior knowledge. I can guarantee you if I do this fight it'll be a joke now. Why? Because I know the fight and have experience. Just jumping into a turn without even watching a video or two doesn't really prove much. I mean if you are just sitting in the bramble patch of course you're going to wipe.

But if you know enough to stay together to break vines and to be behind the monster using the line of sight method to dodge chomps, know the honey mechanic, and the slugs you can clear it blindfolded. Heck in my group we were able to clear it with half of us dead. It's not hard.(and this was pre echo)

You just have to put forth the effort.

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Originally Posted by Cabbitprincess

Faceroll doesn't necessarily mean that you can do it without any prior knowledge. I can guarantee you if I do this fight it'll be a joke now. Why? Because I know the fight and have experience. Just jumping into a turn without even watching a video or two doesn't really prove much. I mean if you are just sitting in the bramble patch of course you're going to wipe.

But if you know enough to stay together to break vines and to be behind the monster using the line of sight method to dodge chomps, know the honey mechanic, and the slugs you can clear it blindfolded. Heck in my group we were able to clear it with half of us dead. It's not hard.(and this was pre echo)

You just have to put forth the effort.

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Not clearing and not knowing are different. myself and 3 others I brought with me had experience up to bees.

Edit: I look forward to going with 7 FRIENDS so we won't get torn to shreds if someone fucks up. So we won't be dehumanized and expected to kill ourselves because we're not perfect right away.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Love how you talk about people being entitled when your the one who thinks your entitled to have content nerfed until you can do it no matter how little effort you choose to put into it.

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You can do Savage version if challenge is what you are really after. Second Coil has been out for over SIX months, plenty of time for people who are looking for challenge to beat it and farm. Now everyone else can try it, with slightly less punishing mechanics. Good thinking on SE's behalf, letting everyone a chance to experience slightly neutered content while destroying "clear seller" in the process. Great job developer, keep it coming, more "adjustment" to make contents very accessible for all :)

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

Not clearing and not knowing are different. myself and 3 others I brought with me had experience up to bees.

Edit: I look forward to going with 7 FRIENDS so we won't get torn to shreds if someone fucks up. So we won't be dehumanized and expected to kill ourselves because we're not perfect right away.

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Bees is only phase two, Phase 3 is when you really find out how good your off tank is. And how well you can DPS down the super slug or just burn it depending.

*edit*

Ah, yeah that's never fun. Ignore those people, they're just mean and angry for some reason. I dealt with those all the time even when I was playing back with Titan EX and stuff.

They probably aren't even that good also, generally those kind of people are just angry at their own lack of skill that they take it out on others.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

You can do Savage version if challenge is what you are really after. Second Coil has been out for over SIX months, plenty of time for people who are looking for challenge to beat it and farm. Now everyone else can try it, with slightly less punishing mechanics. Good thinking on SE's behalf, letting everyone a chance to experience slightly neutered content while destroying "clear seller" in the process. Great job developer, keep it coming, more "adjustment" to make contents very accessible for all :)

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All content is accessible, just learn the fights. Just put forth effort, just actually learn how to play your job.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

You can do Savage version if challenge is what you are really after. Second Coil has been out for over SIX months, plenty of time for people who are looking for challenge to beat it and farm. Now everyone else can try it, with slightly less punishing mechanics. Good thinking on SE's behalf, letting everyone a chance to experience slightly neutered content while destroying "clear seller" in the process. Great job developer, keep it coming, more "adjustment" to make contents very accessible for all :)

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Savage was just a novelty thing they tried out with 6-9 so stop using it as a crutch for your argument.
Second Coil should have been put straight into the Duty Finder with solo queue option. This way any nerfs down the road wouldn't impact players who are going in for the first time and never got to experience as intended.
Yes a lot of players do not want to deal with the Party Finder and elitist attitudes often found within. It's probably the main reason you only saw the same people hanging around Fallguard Float and the rest of the server in only tomestone gear. Beating nerfed SCOB is neither fun, nor a challenge, nor an achievement.
It's a slap in the face of players who want to experience the game but can't due to the ridiculous lockout system being left on for so long. Lockout just makes carry sellers rich because they roll alt characters to get around the restriction. Lockout is also there because there is absolutely no other content in this game to play with your shiny relic and dreadwyrm/poetics.
I'm all for them running clear sellers out of town. Bunch of organised players who have the time to do it, but their egos speak more than their skill level. The ones on our server are lucky they have no competition.

They could have put it on Duty Finder three months after release, before "adjusting" the mechanics for everyone else, six months after release. But overall it's great thinking to give anyone looking for challenge, a SIX months ahead of time to clear and experience it. If you still cannot clear or progress half a year later, let's not blame SE for your misfortune. A lot of players have their own reasons why they have not clear Bahamut Coil in the original difficulty curves. You can blame to "have to find 7 other persons who completely aware of the jump rope" mechanic or you wipe over and over.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

They could have put it on Duty Finder three months after release, before "adjusting" the mechanics for everyone else, six months after release. But overall it's great thinking to give anyone looking for challenge, a SIX months ahead of time to clear and experience it. If you still cannot clear or progress half a year later, let's not blame SE for your misfortune. A lot of players have their own reasons why they have not clear Bahamut Coil in the original difficulty curves. You can blame to "have to find 7 other persons who completely aware of the jump rope" mechanic or you wipe over and over.

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I don't disagree, I just think they need to give the Duty Finder crowd more credit. Not everyone has time for statics and the drama they often bring. If people want to go in DF and roll the dice, clears happen more often than a lot of people seem to think. If not who cares just queue again.

The way they do it now is actually rather good. For SIX months, everyone in your server can group together, form a static, meet other people, and practice and try to clear the most difficult content in the game. Once the two patches cycle is over, the said content is adjusted so that most average players can have a chance to clear it. No matter what SE does, the vocal minority always complaints, and not in a good way either. I like the way things are run now. If you don't care about jump rope mechanic, you can wait 6 months for the adjustment. Otherwise, gear up and try to form a static, or party finder it, and get your sense of achievement. Once the exclusivity time is up, everyone else can try it :)

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

The way they do it now is actually rather good. For SIX months, everyone in your server can group together, form a static, meet other people, and practice and try to clear the most difficult content in the game. Once the two patches cycle is over, the said content is adjusted so that most average players can have a chance to clear it. No matter what SE does, the vocal minority always complaints, and not in a good way either. I like the way things are run now. If you don't care about jump rope mechanic, you can wait 6 months for the adjustment. Otherwise, gear up and try to form a static, or party finder it, and get your sense of achievement. Once the exclusivity time is up, everyone else can try it :)

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Not everyone wants to join statics, why are those players forced to wait for nerfs to experience the content. Duty Finder should be an option for everyone prior to the nerf bat being swung. It's not rocket science..just bosses vs players: dps, heals, tanking, move here/there/dodge, face this way/that way. No different to the dungeons in the game really, only less forgiving.
In a lot of cases, organising and maintaining a static is more difficult than the content itself. Having 4 people quit and finding replacements, having one person say he'll only join your static if his friend can join too but you don't have room for the friend, people unapologetically showing up to raid late or no showing and looking for PUGs at 2am, having people argue over loot, PUGs filling in and rolling your loot never to be seen again, etc. etc. etc.

Except that Coil is somewhat difficult to just randomly PUG via Duty Finder. Sure you will sometimes find good group, but most often is nothing but "vote to dismiss". For 6 months everyone who wants to experience the normal difficulty can do Party Finder. I would assume you are not the only person, so it should be easy to party finder this no? The fact that these players would all be in the same server as yours is great bonus, since you can add them to your friend list and possibly team up again for next time and make semi static. It's a great incentive to make friends with like minded players in your server.

You do know that 2.5 is most likely going to be the last patch before the expansion and all the new content in there, Right?~, SE is just trying to let more players experience Coil before moving on to a new story, new raids/etc, Final Coil will be there for the hardcore players, but now more casual players will be able to finally see how the story continues, not everyone focuses on hardcore, endgame content, some people don't have time, or whatever, making old content easier allows those players to be able to experience that part of the game, they get to see how the story unfolds, or obtain that cool looking armor they've always wanted to glamour, the stuff you get there mostly obsolete now, so i don't see what the big deal is~

i'm happy more people will get to experience it. ( ' u '

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Originally Posted by Nonoko

Not everyone focuses on hardcore, endgame content, some people don't have time, or whatever. Making old content easier allows those players to be able to experience that part of the game, they get to see how the story unfolds. Or obtain that cool looking armor they've always wanted to glamour, the stuff you get there mostly obsolete now, so i don't see what the big deal is~ i'm happy more people will get to experience it. ( ' u '

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Apparently people who sell clear for these are not very happy since now their major source of income is rendered somewhat moot.

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Originally Posted by jlewiss

If you beat it already then who cares, move onto 3rd coil and stop going after people who are playing catchup still.

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Exactly this. Come on people.

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Originally Posted by jlewiss

If you beat it already then who cares, move onto 3rd coil and stop going after people who are playing catchup still.

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^THIS GUY.