What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I mean, that'll just be a physical embodiment of the time travel plots of 5.0 and 6.0.

"We'll totally fight Fate when it's something inconvenient to us, but completely embrace it when it's a Fate we find agreeable."

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vague chrono series spoilers

schala schala schala schala schala schala schala

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I just really hope the game doesn't do a timeloop to have the WoL become Azem. Worst ending possible and the fact it's possible scares me.

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I've heard that theory. Both that one - and the alternate version of Azem becoming the WoL through voluntarily being sundered - yes, that might just have me embracing the Endsinger look. Or maybe join those Ra-La summoners.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

vague chrono series spoilers

schala schala schala schala schala schala schala

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What "Chrono Series"?

They only made one game in 1994.

And NOTHING ELSE.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

What "Chrono Series"?

They only made one game in 1994.

And NOTHING ELSE.

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i stand corrected, my sincerest apologies

okay, for real, chrono cross is a trainwreck on a whole special level above even endwalker, but a couple of the concepts i think would have been potentially interesting extensions of trigger's events - mostly the premise of chronopolis and schala's fate. if only they weren't in, you know, chrono cross.

I have zero confidence they can handle writing a conflict in values at this point, EW saw to that. The Omega quest chain re-introduced much needed nuance, but I don't know that we can continue to count on that. It seems the best I can hope for is they've gotten the message about diverse dialog options because I'm not playing my WoL through yet another expansion where I hate everything I'm doing while my character expresses nothing but positivity about it. Not to mention even the moral standards of the Scions are hypocritical now, so I can't take them seriously anymore either. I think more than just the WoL needs to do some reflection.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I have zero confidence they can handle writing a conflict in values at this point, EW saw to that. The Omega quest chain re-introduced much needed nuance, but I don't know that we can continue to count on that. It seems the best I can hope for is they've gotten the message about diverse dialog options because I'm not playing my WoL through yet another expansion where I hate everything I'm doing while my character expresses nothing but positivity about it. Not to mention even the moral standards of the Scions are hypocritical now, so I can't take them seriously anymore either. I think more than just the WoL needs to do some reflection.

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If it helps or clarifies anything, I think it was obvious, but Ishikawa more or less stated on Twitter that she wrote the Omega quests. They were really reassuring to me in the sense of both a) EW's missteps, however grievous, were definitely not coming from a place of malice, and b) it is really clear they were written largely in response to the concerns and criticisms expressed regarding 6.0, and shifted some of the rhetoric to accommodate. Knowing for certain the lead writer was behind this shift is nice, as well.

I probably have lighter expectations than a lot of people in this thread, but if those quests reflect the basic tone we're going to take when looking back on EW and topics like it, I do feel fairly reassured - though of course there's no way of knowing until it happens.

I thought they were good, in adding nuance that was mostly absent in 6.0, but I am going to reserve judgement and wait to see how the short stories and Aglaia/Pandaemonium turn out, as they are both more or less epilogues to the ancients' story. I do think our feedback has reached her, as the quests touched upon some strains of thought here (and in a tinfoil hat moment, I also suspect there's another thread she may have had a hand in), as did the Nier crossover showcasing the actual events of the Sundering, but it'll be a while before any faith in the writing is fully rehabilitated for me, especially if there is a retrenchment in the remaining story threads, particularly as she's not the sole writer on the project.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

i stand corrected, my sincerest apologies

okay, for real, chrono cross is a trainwreck on a whole special level above even endwalker, but a couple of the concepts i think would have been potentially interesting extensions of trigger's events - mostly the premise of chronopolis and schala's fate. if only they weren't in, you know, chrono cross.

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Yeah, Cross was another one of those stories where the concept was cool at first, until I actually tried to sit down and think about it. When it first came out back in 2000, I overlooked a lot of these issues because I was on the dopamine high of my favorite all time game (which is STILL my fave to this day) getting a sequel.

You are correct, though, that Chronopolis was probably one of the coolest ideas. It made sense to me that, in the future of the timeline we saved, humans would eventually experiment with and learn to control time travel. Where it immediately went wrong was the entire idea of the "Time Crash", and three different magical factors (Schala, the Dragon Gods, and the Time Devourer) all deciding to use that as their big plot-defining moment). Combine that with the laughable premise that the game's entire backstory (and thus, 10,000 years of history across two separate timelines) were because one man orchestrated it, and nowadays, I point to CC as the reason I will never trust any plot written by Masato Kato.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

If it helps or clarifies anything, I think it was obvious, but Ishikawa more or less stated on Twitter that she wrote the Omega quests. They were really reassuring to me in the sense of both a) EW's missteps, however grievous, were definitely not coming from a place of malice, and b) it is really clear they were written largely in response to the concerns and criticisms expressed regarding 6.0, and shifted some of the rhetoric to accommodate. Knowing for certain the lead writer was behind this shift is nice, as well.

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She's stepped down from lead MSQ writer, which is the concern. She may have written the outline for the next 10 years, but I don't know what to expect from these "junior writers" who will be taking over supposedly. Were it Maehiro coming back, I'd be a lot more enthusiastic. That's also assuming Yoshi-P can stop meddling and let the writers do their jobs.

How did you feel about the positing of Hermes and the Final Days being some kind of net positive for the world?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

She's stepped down from lead MSQ writer, which is the concern. She may have written the outline for the next 10 years, but I don't know what to expect from these "junior writers" who will be taking over supposedly. Were it Maehiro coming back, I'd be a lot more enthusiastic. That's also assuming Yoshi-P can stop meddling and let the writers do their jobs.

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I dunno. The fact that Yoshi P's reaction to how the "junior writers" handled Y'shtola in 6.1 can be summarized as "Guys, what kind of amateurish fan fiction is this?!" gives me some modicum of hope.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

She's stepped down from lead MSQ writer, which is the concern. She may have written the outline for the next 10 years, but I don't know what to expect from these "junior writers" who will be taking over supposedly. Were it Maehiro coming back, I'd be a lot more enthusiastic. That's also assuming Yoshi-P can stop meddling and let the writers do their jobs.

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Honestly, I'm not sure at this point what Ishikawa's role on the team is going to be at this point. At first it seemed from her off-hand comments that she'd be stepping down, and now it looks more like she's staying on the team, though we don't know in what capacity? At the very least, she does have a lot of influence, and - IIRC - has mentioned she's going to be working on the stuff that continues to "clarify" and handle aspects of EW's story. I can understand your concerns, though. (Personally, I like Maehiro's work, but Heavensward, while solid and admirable, didn't personally engage me nearly as hard as Shadowbringers or the parts I enjoyed of Endwalker.)

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How did you feel about the positing of Hermes and the Final Days being some kind of net positive for the world?

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As for Hermes, I completely disagree with that reading of Hermes's actions, but it didn't really make me angry, either, as I sort of took the way he was positioned in this quest in particular as having some meta element in it: first off, pointing out that if we're praising Venat, it follows that we must praise Hermes as well, and also, Omega was basically acting as contrarian to the general fandom (and MSQ narrative at large) - the reception/treatment of Emet/Venat skews positive, so it points out the harmful aspects of their actions, and it's the opposite of Hermes.

Trying to wrangle something positive out of Hermes's actions re: the Final Days is an extreme stretch for me, to put it mildly, but I can tolerate this sort of thing as long as it's not being forced upon me and is treated more like a thought exercise. It is true that Hermes's actions played a key role in shaping the events leading to the present we play the game in, just like the Sundering and the Rejoinings.

Once again, though, I understand people who find the continued sympathy extended towards Hermes - and asking us to give him certain forms of benefits of the doubt that aren't well-supported by the text - extremely frustrating.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I dunno. The fact that Yoshi P's reaction to how the "junior writers" handled Y'shtola in 6.1 can be summarized as "Guys, what kind of amateurish fan fiction is this?!" gives me some modicum of hope.

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Aren't he and Ishikawa responsible for that though? Her for giving the junior writers full freedom and him for wanting something 'light' after 6.0? It's quite possible I'm also just being overly pessimistic. :P Yoshi-P has admitted to having a hand in a few things I didn't like about EW (and I suspect others). Not to mention him hamstringing Matsuno. Ishikawa is capable of better and we also know that Yoshi-P rushed this storyline that she thought would be going to 8.0. It's good to see that he wants to maintain some character integrity (yet uses fan favorite Emet as his mouthpiece), but I'm not confident.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Once again, though, I understand people who find the continued sympathy extended towards Hermes - and asking us to give him certain forms of benefits of the doubt that aren't well-supported by the text - extremely frustrating.

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Mostly because it feels like one step forward and two steps back. We're finally able to have the nuance with Venat that was so desperately needed throughout 6.0 only for Hermes to now be presented as having had a positive benefit. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter though. It's difficult to tell at this point what's intended anymore and after EW I tend to take the most negative view. Not to mention, if you haven't seen the discussions about it, there have been a substantial amount translation inconsistencies to the point that I'm having to run everything by a FR friend to see if I'm getting the whole story in EN.

I'm glad there's going to be more clarification. Even the Watcher dialog at the end is being picked apart. I'm sitting here thinking we're all desperate for answers and we're still getting ambiguity.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Not to mention, if you haven't seen the discussions about it, there have been a substantial amount translation inconsistencies to the point that I'm having to run everything by a FR friend to see if I'm getting the whole story in EN.

I'm glad there's going to be more clarification. Even the Watcher dialog at the end is being picked apart. I'm sitting here thinking we're all desperate for answers and we're still getting ambiguity.

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This I think is a big part of the issue. EW was advertised as the end AND the answers. At this point the only thing I want ambiguity on is new concepts. Everything that was introduced before 6.0 or in 6.0 should imo be solved. It's very aggravating to not know, or at least the not knowing adds to the frustration of the known problems.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Mostly because it feels like one step forward and two steps back. We're finally able to have the nuance with Venat that was so desperately needed throughout 6.0 only for Hermes to now be presented as having had a positive benefit. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter though. It's difficult to tell at this point what's intended anymore and after EW I tend to take the most negative view. Not to mention, if you haven't seen the discussions about it, there have been a substantial amount translation inconsistencies to the point that I'm having to run everything by a FR friend to see if I'm getting the whole story in EN.

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Mm, I guess for me it's more like EW was like, six steps back, and this was more a step towards where it was before, if anything. It's not as though I had no dissonance towards elements of FFXIV's plot before EW - I just didn't feel they were egregious enough for me to log onto these forums and start ranting my head off until the Hydaelyn stuff. For example, I think Merlwyb and Hien are terrible people, and scoffed every time my WoL beamed at and played nice with them. So I suppose for me that this most recent treatment of Hermes is comparable to that - actually, probably a bit of a step up compared to the likes of Merlwyb and Hien, since it's still more "this person was terrible, but could there have been something positive to glean out of their bullshit once all is said and done if you tilt your head and squint?" as opposed to unabashed positivity.

Translation difficulties are pretty obnoxious, though, yes. I'm generally on-board with most forms of translation and localization freedom, but I'd hope it was obvious at this point what lore elements are going to be under extreme scrutiny by the fanbase and appropriate care is applied, lol.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

It's not as though I had no dissonance towards elements of FFXIV's plot before EW - I just didn't feel they were egregious enough for me to log onto these forums and start ranting my head off until the Hydaelyn stuff. For example, I think Merlwyb and Hien are terrible people, and scoffed every time my WoL beamed at and played nice with them.

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Hoo boy...you and me both, Sister.

EDIT: Before EW, my biggest "WTF" moment of dissonance was the Level 60-70 Samurai plotline.

"No we can't rebel against this corrupt government that literally burns dissidents alive and keeps certain citizens in abject poverty because...um....war is bad."

ME: "Did....Did I suddenly start playing some other expansion not named 'Stormblood' here?"

On the notion of Merlwyb and Hien. One thing I've started taking note of since ShB is what mobs/structures exist and where. If something changes at the end of the story it's usually something like a background element, Mt. Gulg. But we don't ever get entire sections of map shifted around or mob placement shifted around. I knew the light wouldn't be around forever because there were no overworld Sin Eater mobs. Likewise I could tell how parts of the story were going to play out in Garlemald, Thavnair, and the Moon just because of the mobs present. There's still imperial mobs in ARR zones. Those little settlements wouldn't realistically be there any more. Limsa and the Sahagin have much better relations now but the mobs are still enemies that will agro you and outside the gate/wall. The world doesn't really progress. The devs have gotten a lot more careful now though which is appreciated, but I'd like to see that progression on the map as well as the story.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Aren't he and Ishikawa responsible for that though? Her for giving the junior writers full freedom and him for wanting something 'light' after 6.0? It's quite possible I'm also just being overly pessimistic. :P Yoshi-P has admitted to having a hand in a few things I didn't like about EW (and I suspect others). Not to mention him hamstringing Matsuno. Ishikawa is capable of better and we also know that Yoshi-P rushed this storyline that she thought would be going to 8.0. It's good to see that he wants to maintain some character integrity (yet uses fan favorite Emet as his mouthpiece), but I'm not confident.

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I'm also not too emboldened based on fan reception. Granted, Reddit is not the be all and end all of the 14 community, but there were lots of people claiming to love what they did with Y'shtola and not see the problem he'd outlined. If he takes a firm stance on what his vision for the product and character integrity is, things could improve. Just hope they're not swayed by reception to fan service which compromised the characters.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Hoo boy...you and me both, Sister.

EDIT: Before EW, my biggest "WTF" moment of dissonance was the Level 60-70 Samurai plotline.

"No we can't rebel against this corrupt government that literally burns dissidents alive and keeps certain citizens in abject poverty because...um....war is bad."

ME: "Did....Did I suddenly start playing some other expansion not named 'Stormblood' here?"

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I was squinting hard at Hien the second his introductory plotline amounted to "I am going to take advantage of these people (who saved my life and sheltered me for years, btw) and their culture and manipulate them into being footsoldiers for my war that they have no involvement in because there's a loophole in their ritual to claim power lol!" and this was treated with completely uncritical positivity. It did not get much better after that, especially the Yotsuyu stuff. The Samurai questline was... something, too, though, to be sure. Look, whatever the WoL decides to do is what's morally correct - nevermind that the WoL generally just goes along with the first person to ask them to help their side, okay? (No, I still have not forgotten the very beginning of the game when Gridania had me murder a bunch of Qiqirn for the crime of stealing an egg.)

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Originally Posted by Xirean

EW was advertised as the end AND the answers.

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Exactly. We were deprived of so much lore and for what? Moon bunnies? Labyrinthos? A cutscene designed to elevate Venat rather than depict an accurate series of events? It's sad that we learned more about the sundering in the NieR crossover than in Endwalker.

I would make a list of everything we still don't know, but I think the shorter list would be what we do know. It's causing fans to have to fill in the blanks with with speculation because a lot of time was spent on arguably unimportant things rather than the fundamental history of the world.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

It's not as though I had no dissonance towards elements of FFXIV's plot before EW - I just didn't feel they were egregious enough for me to log onto these forums and start ranting my head off until the Hydaelyn stuff.

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I can agree with that. I was uncomfortable with parts of SB (I'm extremely adverse to pressuring people to do things they don't want to do which was 4.0 in a nutshell), but nothing I couldn't move past (forge ahead :P). In fact, describing 4.0 to someone else I couldn't help but laugh about it. EW was a whole other level though and, depending on the subject, I will launch into a rage-fueled rant. As Lurina mentioned once, I felt I wasn't ethically on the same page as the writers. The lack of dialog options combined with the dissonance between how I was feeling and how my character was reacting was just too much. The Scions breaking character consistency to side with someone who embodies everything they have historically opposed didn't help either.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

I was squinting hard at Hien the second his introductory plotline amounted to "I am going to take advantage of these people (who saved my life and sheltered me for years, btw) and their culture and manipulate them into being footsoldiers for my war that they have no involvement in because there's a loophole in their ritual to claim power lol!" and this was treated with completely uncritical positivity.

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I'm going to admit that I completely overlooked all of that.

Probably because my vision was obscured by the giant hearts appearing in front of my eyes whenever Sadu Heavensflame was onscreen.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

It did not get much better after that, especially the Yotsuyu stuff.

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I'm curious to know your exact objections to the Yotsuyu plotline.

Probably the two big parts i can think of right now that took me out of ff14 were the whole thing with yotsuyu near literal pimp and the whole thing with the conferederacy. but as you say its enough to just ignore it or just 'deal with it'

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I'm going to admit that I completely overlooked all of that.

Probably because my vision was obscured by the giant hearts appearing in front of my eyes whenever Sadu Heavensflame was onscreen.

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Perfectly understandable! Have a nice day.

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I'm curious to know your exact objections to the Yotsuyu plotline.

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The Yotsuyu plotline, in regards to Hien, wanted to have its cake and eat it too - it wanted pathos for Yotsuyu on the basis of her abuse at the hands of Doma and its entrenched systems as a country, and pretend it was making some kind of deep, emotional point about them, but it didn't want Hien, its ruler and someone too privileged to have ever had to deal with that corruption, to be accountable for any of it. This includes overlooking and not naming that Hien's father was overseeing the country as these abusive systems, sex trafficking included, flourished - Hien continues to hero worship and do things in honor of his father unabashedly after Yotsuyu's story comes out - and making sure Hien only needs to say the absolute vaguest "oh we'll make the country better" platitudes, and nothing concrete, no real plan of action or indication of exactly how Yotsuyu's story may have impacted him. And for all of Yotsuyu's rage, none of it is actually directed at Hien, and she and Hien share no compelling scenes together, despite being the key players of Doma. Like him, the writing with her is careful to keep it at a vague "Doma as a country (and also Asashi because he's a safe target deliberately made to be hateable) sucks" and not point any fingers or step on the toes of any real, breathing characters we might know and like and who might actually be held meaningfully accountable.

And, of course, the fun bit where Hien's comment on Yotsuyu's rapist amounts to: "Well, as far as I've known him he's a good person, so I can't judge him" is the lovely cherry on top. Get out of here, dude.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

This includes overlooking and not naming that Hien's father was overseeing the country as these abusive systems, sex trafficking included, flourished - Hien continues to hero worship and do things in honor of his father unabashedly after Yotsuyu's story comes out - and making sure Hien only needs to say the absolute vaguest "oh we'll make the country better" platitudes, and nothing concrete, no real plan of action or indication of exactly how Yotsuyu's story may have impacted him.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

And, of course, the fun bit where Hien's comment on Yotsuyu's rapist amounts to: "Well, as far as I've known him he's a good person, so I can't judge him" is the lovely cherry on top. Get out of here, dude.

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.....And here's the part where I force myself not to go into another diatribe about certain real-life parallels and events.

In all seriousness, though, that is a very well-articulated and thoroughly-explained reasoning for something that I always felt gnawing at me on the Yotsuyu plotline, but just couldn't quite put my finger on. As someone who is aware of those certain real-life events which mirror this (and the story seems to be trying to justify to uncomfortable levels), I'm actually ashamed and humbled that I didn't notice this until you pointed it out.

But yeah...that is some major whattheeff-ery.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

.....And here's the part where I force myself not to go into another diatribe about certain real-life parallels and events.

In all seriousness, though, that is a very well-articulated and thoroughly-explained reasoning for something that I always felt gnawing at me on the Yotsuyu plotline, but just couldn't quite put my finger on. As someone who is aware of those certain real-life events which mirror this (and the story seems to be trying to justify to uncomfortable levels), I'm actually ashamed and humbled that I didn't notice this until you pointed it out.

But yeah...that is some major whattheeff-ery.

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I mean, I've really enjoyed and feel like I've gotten a lot of insight from several of your posts and thoughts, too, so I hope that feeling at least doesn't plague you for too long!

(Hien sucks soooooo much, though)

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Originally Posted by Brinne

(No, I still have not forgotten the very beginning of the game when Gridania had me murder a bunch of Qiqirn for the crime of stealing an egg.)

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At least they have a good reason for that, namely, the fact that the elementals would flip out and kill everyone...or so the lore and characters keep stating, regardless of the fact they never do much of anything (until the plot demands they do SOMETHING), even though there's been lot worse slights and desecrations happening in their little forest.

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

At least they have a good reason for that, namely, the fact that the elementals would flip out and kill everyone...or so the lore and characters keep stating, regardless of the fact they never do much of anything (until the plot demands they do SOMETHING), even though there's been lot worse slights and desecrations happening in their little forest.

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Yeah, but even then, every single plot involving the Elementals and the Padjals treats the Elementals as gracious, benevolent benefactors who have kindly allowed the people of the shroud to NOT be genocided. While the story does make it clear that the Elementals are temperamental and have an almost childlike cognitive level of discourse and coping, it still wants to portray them as truly magnanimous beings who have done the Gridanians a solid by allowing them to continue breathing oxygen.

Why is what Hien did in the steppe that much worse than convincing Ishgard to get involved in the war against Garlemald?

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Why is what Hien did in the steppe that much worse than convincing Ishgard to get involved in the war against Garlemald?

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We didn’t take over their main form of government in order to induce them to fight in a dangerous war without direct political gain.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

We didn’t take over their main form of government in order to induce them to fight in a dangerous war without direct political gain.

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You murdered the archbishop of Ishgard.
In the steppe you participated in a ritual that you were explicitly allowed in.

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Originally Posted by Lucida3b

Probably the two big parts i can think of right now that took me out of ff14 were the whole thing with yotsuyu near literal pimp

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"It's not my place to judge a man who trafficked underaged girls for years and years. The Jifuya I know is an honorable man. And he is a good friend.".

- Hien, King of Doma.

I don't see this much wrong with the Steppes situation personally. Admittedly I haven't gone through SB in a long time, but it just seemed to me like all of them were cool with letting foreigners with an obvious agenda participate in their Stupid Game™, in which said foreigners won the Stupid Prize™, and then the whole three tribes (unless the Buduga also fought in the war? I can't remember) that Hien actually got to participate in his war fully consented to it. Basically all of it seems based on the Proud Warrior Race Guy trope, which... when applied to an obvious fictional version of Mongols is certainly something. But within the context of the story I'm not sure what is wrong. We played their game according to their rules, they lost, gg. I don't see it as very different from recruiting mercenaries – only they would have probably refused money, so we paid them in Blood and Honor and Warrior's Pride.

I feel like mentioning that, as far as I can recall, none of the Naadam stuff was in the Xaela's original lore as it was presented during HW. What little we had of it, at least. It did weird me out in SB that suddenly they had this yearly competition that would result in the tribes having a leader of sorts.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

You murdered the archbishop of Ishgard.
In the steppe you participated in a ritual that you were explicitly allowed in.

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The archbishop was a nutcase that was planning on becoming a god and ruling over the entire world forever. We didn’t kill him because he stood in the way of adding Ishgard to the alliance against Garlemald.

We’re also allowed to meet privately with many heads of State. That doesn’t make it okay for us to beat up Kan-E-Senna, insert a padjal puppet government that’s willing to declare war on the Elementals, and then moonwalk completely out of the area when we’ve gotten what we wanted.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Yeah, but even then, every single plot involving the Elementals and the Padjals treats the Elementals as gracious, benevolent benefactors who have kindly allowed the people of the shroud to NOT be genocided. While the story does make it clear that the Elementals are temperamental and have an almost childlike cognitive level of discourse and coping, it still wants to portray them as truly magnanimous beings who have done the Gridanians a solid by allowing them to continue breathing oxygen.

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I think that very much is the idea, the Gridanians very much get to live there as long as the elementals permit and when provoked there wrath is horrendous so the Grindanians treat them with a lot of reverence and I guess as they can recall what they had to do before the elementals let them live there they regard it as a well made deal if a dangerous one. (would be nice to have explored it more)

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

We’re also allowed to meet privately with many heads of State. That doesn’t make it okay for us to beat up Kan-E-Senna, insert a padjal puppet government that’s willing to declare war on the Elementals, and then moonwalk completely out of the area when we’ve gotten what we wanted.

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But that scenario would constitute a breach of trust. With the Naadam everyone agreed to the rules.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I don't see this much wrong with the Steppes situation personally. Admittedly I haven't gone through SB in a long time, but it just seemed to me like all of them were cool with letting foreigners with an obvious agenda participate in their Stupid Game™, in which said foreigners won the Stupid Prize™, and then the whole three tribes (unless the Buduga also fought in the war? I can't remember) that Hien actually got to participate in his war fully consented to it. Basically all of it seems based on the Proud Warrior Race Guy trope, which... when applied to an obvious fictional version of Mongols is certainly something. But within the context of the story I'm not sure what is wrong. We played their game according to their rules, they lost, gg. I don't see it as very different from recruiting mercenaries – only they would have probably refused money, so we paid them in Blood and Honor and Warrior's Pride.

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Much like the situation with Venat, the plot contorting itself to make it so Hien's actions are actually "okay" with everyone (including an incredibly conveniently-timed attack by the Imperials to turn the Steppe sentiment against them just in time for Hien to march them to his war) makes me feel more negatively toward it, not less. It's along the same lines of the writing having Emet "show his respect" toward Venat and her plan in Ultima Thule.

If Hien had, as a diplomat, approached the Steppe leadership openly and proposed they join forces for mutual benefit against the Empire, that would be one thing. But instead he resorted to what amounts to a sneaky power play to force the issue, and no amount of hand-waving about "well actually the fantasy Mongols are conveniently totally cool with it because they love violence anyway and hey there's the Empire on their doorstep after us to piss them off" is going to mitigate that, for me.

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But that scenario would constitute a breach of trust. With the Naadam everyone agreed to the rules.

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Yeah, Hien found a great loophole in their cultural ritual and he exploited the hell out of it. Look, he's not participating in the Naadam as an agent of Doma, he's fighting on behalf of the Mol, who after their victory have agreed to let him call all the shots because of their superstitions and because Cirina has a crush on him! What Is The Point With That Quite Lackluster Story In Stormblood

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Originally Posted by Teraq

But that scenario would constitute a breach of trust. With the Naadam everyone agreed to the rules.

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So we told the other participants outside the Mol they would be expected to fight and die for another country if we won? I must have missed that scene.

My issues with Ishgard predate Garlemald. The exiled WoL essentially does everything for them, but then Aymeric consistently acts like he owes a debt to the Eorzean Alliance. I miss isolationist Ishgard. I actually hate seeing them on every warfront, especially because Aymeric will probably remind me somehow that he feels perpetually indebted to the other city-states for what I did. I love how we ended the Dragonsong War for them only to drag them into literally every other possible conflict.

As for the Steppe, it may have been allowable but it wasn't honorable. We gamed the Nadaam with the WoL trump card (reminder the person who Thancred credits as single-handedly winning the Grand Melee for Ishgard) so Hien could recruit the Xaela into a war that didn't concern them and near as I can tell didn't benefit them in any way. Unfortunately, this was just one more in a series of traveling around the world pressuring people into joining the fight and, worse, because the aforementioned Eorzean Alliance decided to grant Ilberd's dying wish. I still don't understand how we won against Garlemald. It should've been an absolute slaughter with Ala Mhigo and Doma being crushed under magitek foot.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

It should've been an absolute slaughter with Ala Mhigo and Doma being crushed under magitek foot.

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Simple. They had an army. We had a WOL.

That said, Ishgard abandoning its isolationism made sense. That was imposed by a tyrannical theocracy to keep people ignorant and secure said religious dictator's power hold.

But now that you mention it, I can't help but notice that most cases of the WOL ending an isolationist society results from "They have X and we need X to save the world. Therefore, we have to force them to give us X", which basically comes across as a 15th-Century "How to Justify Colonial Expansion" manual. I mean, yeah, the fact that the player usually needs to upturn some society to get what they need to save the world is both true and not exactly new to RPGs, but it IS noticeable how often it happens to the Scions.

This current topic legit makes me wonder how much like dynasty warriors the WoL vs soldiers would actually look like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Unfortunately, this was just one more in a series of traveling around the world pressuring people into joining the fight and, worse, because the aforementioned Eorzean Alliance decided to grant Ilberd's dying wish. I still don't understand how we won against Garlemald. It should've been an absolute slaughter with Ala Mhigo and Doma being crushed under magitek foot.

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There's a dark joke in here somewhere about how Venat and Ilberd, with their ideologies and methods, secured victory and achieved everything they wanted, whereas Emet-Selch's point of failure and his downfall is stated to be his "kindness," but I probably don't have the heart or the brainpower to properly formulate it at this moment.