Healers that don't want to DPS are like DPSes who refuse to move out of AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Hirmu

Let's see:

So that's 9 dps ablities, 4 combined and 15 healing only abilities. So that's 13 vs 15, granted some of the dps abilites you won't be using in practice, like fluid aura but it doesn't mean they're not dps abilities. So yes, it's much closer to half than the 1/4 you suggested.

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I think you MEAN to say... its 8 DPS... and 15 Healing related.

So about 2/3rds healing abilities.

And while that might not technically be half their abilities, you are still ignorant.

So, uh, hey. Why is this topic still going? I mean, we're beating a horse that's so dead that if every healer in the topic stopped DPSing and all cast raise it still wouldn't bring it back.

Especially considering it was started by someone who's opinion on healers DPSing is borderline militant.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I think you MEAN to say... its 8 DPS... and 15 Healing related.

So about 2/3rds healing abilities.

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You just don't budge even when facts are thrown right in front of you? Math is hard, I admit.

But no, that's exactly what I wrote, WHM has a total of 9 pure dps abilities, 1 damaging and healing ability, 2 abilities which critical in dps rotation, one crowd control and then there are 15 buff/healing abilities. So no matter how you twist the numbers, there's 28 abilities in total, and only 15 of them are healing abilities. 15 out of 28 is 53,5 %. You claimed earlier that 3/4 or 75 % of WHM abilities are healing abilities, then you claimed that it's 2/3 or 66,6 % which are both just plain wrong. The number is 53,5 %.

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Originally Posted by Hirmu

...some of the dps abilites you won't be using in practice, like fluid aura ...

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Ehhh...why not? I use it ALL. THE. TIME.

Even in casual roulette content, there are plenty of mobs at later levels, that DO NOT get a knockback, so its a great filler skill to use.
If im not sure if it causes a knock back or not, I'll just use it when the mob's hp is low enough to get killed off by it, so whether it gets knocked back or not doesnt really matter.
If it still survives, well, then I'll take care of it if you just let me finish another 2 second cast that it will take to kill it . Dont run after it and complain i knocked it back. Especially not when theres another mob next to you you could be hitting instead.

In any trials or raids,it will never cause a knock back, so not using it is a big potential dps waste.

Also, in some cases it can even be used as a way to interrupt a mob's cast that you dont want to go off (although i dont really use it that way...or, very rarely at least)

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

Ehhh...why not? I use it ALL. THE. TIME.

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Haha, I was actually just told IRL that I shouldn't be laughing at fluid aura! I hadn't realized it has a decent potency and should be used so I stand corrected and will try to use it more ^^ As you can see, I'm not a career WHM.

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Originally Posted by Hirmu

Haha, I was actually just told IRL that I shouldn't be laughing at fluid aura! I hadn't realized it has a decent potency and should be used so I stand corrected and will try to use it more ^^ As you can see, I'm not a career WHM.

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Oh I can totally see where youre coming from.
I remember being a newbie at the game who only started out and got shouted at for using it!

So I shied away from it until I realized it can still be used when adjusting to it properly.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

A healer who heals isn't being carried. really why do you feel the need to be so cut throat and ride on this game. I agree in savage raids, but anything outside of savage raids doesn't need this poor attitude. you people and your arbitrary standards.

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Interesting. So in your view, outside of savage, I can use auto eos and stand around as SCH and you would be okay with this? I get rare materials, gear, everything you get as a DPS or Tank by literally, and I am not exaggerating here, literally cast at most 10 spells within a 20 minute time frame?

You honestly believe that this person is putting in the same level of work as a DPS doing their rotation and should be rewarding as such? The amount of coddling is sickening.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Interesting. So in your view, outside of savage, I can use auto

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but at the end of the day who cares tho , I play all roles I dps as a healer I love cleric stance , but I only dps as a healer if the tank is doing their job which is damage mitigation, which in my experience seems to be rare in df. Im not gona dps as a healer if so tank is pulling 8 adds and not using a single defensive cool down, to me thats way to risky.

And again like I said earlier in this thread, sometimes dungeons is all that people do in this game as far as combat period, so that means they arent comfortable doing any raids, or extreme primals. So to me its just rude to tell someone to dps when they are just clearly doing content thats in their comfort zone, who am I to tell them to do anything different whether I believe its lazy or not.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Interesting. So in your view, outside of savage, I can use auto eos and stand around as SCH and you would be okay with this? I get rare materials, gear, everything you get as a DPS or Tank by literally, and I am not exaggerating here, literally cast at most 10 spells within a 20 minute time frame?

You honestly believe that this person is putting in the same level of work as a DPS doing their rotation and should be rewarding as such? The amount of coddling is sickening.

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Man, you really need to cool it. Look what you've caused here.

I myself don't mind what a healer does outside of their job. If they wanna DPS, cool, long as they don't get tunnel vision and wipe the party. If they don't wanna, cool- it's not like I'm gonna suffer for them not doing it. Heck, in 2.x I though white mages had way too much DPS with holy, and it incentivized them to DPS more than heal, since they'd be higher DPS on anything outside bosses than dedicated roles. Luckily it's backed off a lot since HW though.

It's all about the role. If you're a healer, you heal. Wanna DPS too, awesome, don't, cool. If you're a tank, hold threat, wanna dip into deliverance for a bit and drop some hot fell cleaves? Cool, just don't lose threat, that's your main thing. If you're playing BLM, you wanna be one of the like 4 BLM ever who remember that Apocatastasis exists and drop it on the tank before a buster? That's super rad, just keep pumping out Fire IV too. Long as they're not failing the thing they queued to do, I'm cool with them.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

snip.

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You can find time easily, easily to at least throw out a spell in a dungeon. I'm sorry but as a SCH if you can't find time to DPS with an auto fairy, you're not just bad at the game, you're legendarily bad. Have you actually tried this before? You have periods where minutes can go by and you don't need to heal. Is this even playing the game anymore? Players should strive to be better and improve, no? I understand being casual and doing streamlined content, I really do, but you mean to tell me that it's not only okay, but encouraged to stand around and do nothing as a healer?

If your entire party is low on mana and as a Bard you don't feel comfortable stepping out of your rotation to use the mana song, is this going to be encouraged too? "Aw, who cares? Different playstyle." If we're going to be so encouraging of a variety of playstyles when does it end? Ninja refuses to Goad? DPS refuses to use Second Wind? Blood for Blood too scary?

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Originally Posted by Hirmu

You just don't budge even when facts are thrown right in front of you? Math is hard, I admit.

But no, that's exactly what I wrote, WHM has a total of 9 pure dps abilities, 1 damaging and healing ability, 2 abilities which critical in dps rotation, one crowd control and then there are 15 buff/healing abilities. So no matter how you twist the numbers, there's 28 abilities in total, and only 15 of them are healing abilities. 15 out of 28 is 53,5 %. You claimed earlier that 3/4 or 75 % of WHM abilities are healing abilities, then you claimed that it's 2/3 or 66,6 % which are both just plain wrong. The number is 53,5 %.

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No... sorry man, you are the one twisting it to mean what you want it to...

So badly.... I didn't even bother with a response.

I'll let everyone else be the judge of that.

What you really mean... is 8 DPS and 15 healing related... that's not 50%... and its not a DPS...

It takes two seconds to figure that out.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

You can find time easily, easily to at least throw out a spell in a dungeon. I'm sorry but as a SCH if you can't find time to DPS with an auto fairy, you're not just bad at the game, you're legendarily bad. Have you actually tried this before? You have periods where minutes can go by and you don't need to heal. Is this even playing the game anymore? Players should strive to be better and improve, no? I

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I dont think that you read what I posted I dps as a healer always have sense I started playing the game , but again if a tank is not using a single cool down then no Im not gona go all out on dps. So again dont just put this on healers a tank has a job and that is to mitigate damage if a tank is pulling 8 9 10 adds and not using a single cool down then that is a bad tank.

And from that point on Im prob not gona dps that much because I know I have a bad tank, the fairy at least in hw content really doesnt heal for that much if your using selene just using embrace. Ill dps more when I know I personally have a good tank Im not gona come in thinking I can stay in cleric when I have a horrible tank that doesnt even know what a defensive cool down is or means or using crap like living dead with a full health bar.

I mention earlier Ive seen drks using living dead as they pulled with a full health bar, Ive seen them using blood bath instead of shadow skin, so again do not blame this only on healers when your tank has to know how to be a tank which I would say juding from df u are gona get a 50/50 ratio. And again people like you have your say in statics, in pf , so why do you feel as tho you need it in duty finder as well.

Many players dont go beyond dungeons , because they would rather avoid players like you that talk down on them, and come to duty finder for a safe way to do content they are comfortable with. I try to do all content in the game myself, but I dont expect people to play like I would expect someone in an extreme primal run to play the same way as a df run because not everyone is looking to be the best they are just looking to play the game and thats ok with me.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

What is 8/15? It's 0.53 with an infinite number of 3s afterwards. I'm not even sure what you are saying. Hirmu is giving you actual numbers and you're here acting as if they're not numbers. Feelings can't argue with numbers, I'm sorry.

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Its nothing, this dude was over exaggerating so I posted the actual abilities of the class... and it didn't say what he thought it did.

In a nutshell... yeah... the Healers have primarily healing abilities with only a few actual DPS abilities.

Exception of course was the SCH... which shares the base class Arcanist with the SMN.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Its nothing, this dude was over exaggerating so I posted the actual abilities of the class... and it didn't say what he thought it did.

In a nutshell... yeah... the Healers have primarily healing abilities with only a few actual DPS abilities.

Exception of course was the SCH... which shares the base class Arcanist with the SMN.

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Maybe.... It's you who's... incorrect about the potential of the class...

I have seen... healers... who have... beaten DPS... in expert dungeons... by being aggressive... And nobody ever died... Because they managed their regens...

Even... at a casual level... Healers can... very easily... contribute very meaningful DPS... While putting no risk on... the tank.

Think... about it this way... if... both healers... in an 8 man trial... DPS while sharing the healing burden... they can collectively... deal damage equal to... a DPS and a half!

That... is a ton... of added damage...

If a DPS job... ever comes out... that has even halfway decent... shields or regens... I promise they... will be... expected... to... use... them.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Interesting. So in your view, outside of savage, I can use auto eos and stand around as SCH and you would be okay with this? I get rare materials, gear, everything you get as a DPS or Tank by literally, and I am not exaggerating here, literally cast at most 10 spells within a 20 minute time frame?

You honestly believe that this person is putting in the same level of work as a DPS doing their rotation and should be rewarding as such? The amount of coddling is sickening.

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Look man, this isnt even about healers DPSing when your talking like this. You need to understand that NOTHING in this game will ever be of equal reward to your effort and there will always be someone who is fucking lucky, jumps into a bird farm dies on all the pulls but still gets first bird whistle. RNG does not grace people for effort.

If you want a game that rewards effort you are playing the wrong game. If you find one that rewards effort in the way you are expecting let me know. You can whine and bitch all you want about little kids who don't dps as healer but in the end, if the fight was won they are able to roll on gear just like you. SE is NOT going to change this. Most you can hope for is different healing meta that forces more "effort" out of them. Maybe you will see it in stormblood, chances are you wont.

Yeah. The thing is though, as a healer there is a lot of down time.. your examples are off gcd stuff or doing extra damage by tank stance swapping. Even if a run is going smooth and fast, if a healer is happy to just stand there and do nothing in their downtime it's time they could be using to do extra dps.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

What you really mean... is 8 DPS and 15 healing related... that's not 50%... and its not a DPS...

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Are you serious? I'm gonna try this one more time with you, I don't even know why but here goes. These are all of the WHM abilities:


Pure dps:

Cleric Stance
Holy
Stone
Stone II
Stone III
Aero
Aero II
Aero III
Fluid Aura

Total: 9

Combined dps/healing/crowd control/MP:

Shroud of Saints
Presence of Mind
Assize
Repose

Total: 4

Pure healing/buff:

Divine Seal
Benediction
Stoneskin
Stoneskin II
Cure
Cure II
Cure III
Medica
Medica II
Asylum
Regen
Tetra
Raise
Esuna
Protect

Total: 15

All in all there are 9 + 4 + 15 = 28 abilities. Feel free to use a calculator to verify. 15 abilities are healing abilities. So 15 out of 28. Maybe you should spend more than 2 seconds this time to figure this out.

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Originally Posted by Hirmu

Snip

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I'm not a big WHM person, but wouldn't holy be filed under section 2 as DPS/Crowd Control, given it's stun time? I know a lot of healers who use holy purely for the AoE stun as a form of damage mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

I'm not a big WHM person, but wouldn't holy be filed under section 2 as DPS/Crowd Control, given it's stun time? I know a lot of healers who use holy purely for the AoE stun as a form of damage mitigation.

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It's also worth noting that Stones 1, 2 and 3 will never be used equivalently to one another; they're tiers of one same move and aren't cast as 3 separate abilities on a mob like Aero/II/III. Lumping PoM and Shroud as part of a greater total towards DPS moves is also disingenuous, IMO - better to just remove that category from the total outright. In return we'll dump Stoneskin II off the healing list as it's redundant, leaving us with 14 healing moves out of 22 total - fairly higher than 50% as originally stated.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

It's also worth noting that Stones 1, 2 and 3 will never be used equivalently to one another; they're tiers of one same move and aren't cast as 3 separate abilities on a mob like Aero/II/III. Lumping PoM and Shroud as part of a greater total towards DPS moves is also disingenuous, IMO - better to just remove that category from the total outright. In return we'll dump Stoneskin II off the healing list as it's redundant, leaving us with 14 healing moves out of 22 total - fairly higher than 50% as originally stated.

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The number of moves is kind of irrelevant. If I have 30 moves, and I cast 3 DPS moves and 1 healing move in a pull, who cares that 15 of the unused moves were healing?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The

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even still why is it so important to tell people what to do in a dungeon which maybe the only form of content alot of players are comfortable doing in the first place why can't people just bite the bullet and leave them alone

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The number of moves is kind of irrelevant. If I have 30 moves, and I cast 3 DPS moves and 1 healing move in a pull, who cares that 15 of the unused moves were healing?

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Idk, two other dudes were making the argument and I just pointed out inaccuracies. I think the debate was something about the precision of the whole "why would you ignore 50% of your abilities" statement or something like that. DPSing moves obviously aren't that involved with healer kits or else I might not be so bored doing it, haha. But the problem isn't the number of moves, it's just straight-up healer design, so I agree with you there.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

even still why is it so important to tell people what to do in a dungeon which maybe the only form of content a lot of players are comfortable doing in the first place why can't people just bite the bullet and leave them alone

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Not really related to what I was saying. I already stated some pages back that I am of the stance that you should just let healers do what they want in duty roulette. Save the pressure for your static & friends.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Idk, two other dudes were making the argument and I just pointed out inaccuracies. I think the debate was something about the precision of the whole "why would you ignore 50% of your abilities" statement or something like that. DPSing moves obviously aren't that involved with healer kits or else I might not be so bored doing it, haha. But the problem isn't the number of moves, it's just straight-up healer design, so I agree with you there.

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Indeed, I didn't follow the full debate tbh, and my reply was more to the debate than to you specifically.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

If a DPS job... ever comes out... that has even halfway decent... shields or regens... I promise they... will be... expected... to... use... them.

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Funny... funny. Unfortunately, no dps with that kind of utility will ever actually be expected to use it. People don't want BLM's using Apoc, an amazing utility spell, because it interferes with their deeps without a proc. Similarly, no one expects or cares if a SMN use Virus or E4E, and pragmatically speaking, people don't even WANT MNK using Mantra.

Any class with that utility won't be expected or encouraged to use it under any circumstances, because 'MUH DEEPS'. Thanks for the chuckle though!

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Funny... funny. Unfortunately, no dps with that kind of utility will ever actually be expected to use it. People don't want BLM's using Apoc, an amazing utility spell, because it interferes with their deeps without a proc. Similarly, no one expects or cares if a SMN use Virus or E4E, and pragmatically speaking, people don't even WANT MNK using Mantra.

Any class with that utility won't be expected or encouraged to use it under any circumstances, because 'MUH DEEPS'. Thanks for the chuckle though!

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That's not true at all. I don't know what groups you play with, but I've seen a ton of people get really mad at SMNs that don't use their single greatest utility, their battle res. As a Monk player, during A11S prog I was actually coordinating with healers, and timing my Mantra during high healer burst phases, like the DPS photon during pyretic, or that hell part in phase 4 where the 7 man photon comes out followed by two whirlwinds. My mantra became part of the rotation that our healers relied upon to clear the fight, whenever the healers stated that they needed it most. This is in addition to our SMN using virus on the Phase 4 Laser X sword so that our DRK could eat it without the WAR stacking with them.

Apoc is also an incredible tool that sees a lot of use whenever a player dies and needs protection during a boss's 'limit break' move where they smash the party. DPS that do not use their inherent utility should be instructed to start using their kit to the fullest of their potential.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Funny... funny. Unfortunately, no dps with that kind of utility will ever actually be expected to use it. People don't want BLM's using Apoc, an amazing utility spell, because it interferes with their deeps without a proc. Similarly, no one expects or cares if a SMN use Virus or E4E, and pragmatically speaking, people don't even WANT MNK using Mantra.

Any class with that utility won't be expected or encouraged to use it under any circumstances, because 'MUH DEEPS'. Thanks for the chuckle though!

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you want another laugh? Heal an expert dungeon. Figure out how much spare time you could use to contribute dps. Then reevaluate your life

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

snip.

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I'll give you the same advice. If this is your main character lvl 51smn. No healers. Lvl up a healer. Try it out. Then come back here. Instead of arguing semantics. Till then your contribution to this thread is irrelevant.

I'd love to see you get your class quests done without dpsing.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

you want another laugh? Heal an expert dungeon. Figure out how much spare time you could use to contribute dps. Then reevaluate your life

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I have. I go AFK half the run spamming DPS spells with either a macro or one hand while browsing the forums, and glance up after 7/8 casts to cast a cure on the tank before semi-AFKing because healer DPS is $%@#ing boring and I'd rather be doing anything else. I just happen to be both short on time and not in the mood to tank. But yeah, let's support such lazy healing design. :)

I think both sides make a good point. Healers that are not comfortable, should not be forced to dps, these players picked the role, because they wanted to avoid healing. On the other hand, we have content where damage to the party is not that high, this means that healers do not need to heal as much, inturn means that those healers unless they dps will just stand there doing nothing. The issue at the end realy is about content that either requires the healer to heal more or SE needs to put a disclaimer (something) at the character creation to warn players that even if they pick a healer, they are expected to dps at endgame.

Personaly, I am curious why we are avoiding the elephant in the room when it comes to these discussion. I hate to ruffle some feathers, but aside from healers able to dps during downtime, there is another reason why groups want their healers to dps and that is to compensate for low dps. Yoshida has said multiple times that when they design an dungeon/raid/trial, they do not take the dps that comes from healer into account, yet for the average group, unless the healer deals damage aswell, the dungeon/trial/raid run takes alot longer to complete.. Is it possible that the average dpser is underpreforming and this is why dps is required from the healer or is it realy about healers standing there doing nothing?

Healers should dps if they are doing nothing, but we should also talk about having the dps preform much better at their task.

Ok. So you supprt me. Healing is easy. And you might as well dps to help the dungeon go faster. Coolio

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Ok. So you supprt me. Healing is easy. And you might as well dps to help the dungeon go faster. Coolio

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...I hate healers that DPS and wish SE would slap even bigger penalties for using Cleric, like a 20 second lockout or a hefty resource cost like Grit. How does this sound like I support the healer dps meta I want dead?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

...I hate healers that DPS and wish SE would slap even bigger penalties for using Cleric, like a 20 second lockout or a hefty resource cost like Grit. How does this sound like I support the healer dps meta I want dead?

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You literally admitted that healing in this game, at a base level, is obnoxiously boring and braindead.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Apoc is also an incredible tool that

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I second this. In a12s, my groups blm uses Apoc on the tank that has the time add so they don't get hurt so bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

You literally admitted that healing in this game, at a base level, is obnoxiously boring and braindead.

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Might want to reread the last few posts. I said DPSing as a healer is obnoxiously boring and braindead, and can be competently achieved by being semi AFK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Might want to reread the last few posts. I said DPSing as a healer is obnoxiously boring and braindead, and can be competently achieved by being semi AFK.

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So why not do it??

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Might want to reread the last few posts. I said DPSing as a healer is obnoxiously boring and braindead, and can be competently achieved by being semi AFK.

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If you're doing a rotation and optimally using GCDs accordingly, along with healing, you have plenty to do. The main issue I feel that is going over a lot of people's head is healing vs DPS. You do both, not just one. If you do just one, you are playing your class incorrectly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Might want to reread the last few posts. I said DPSing as a healer is obnoxiously boring and braindead, and can be competently achieved by being semi AFK.

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Because just healing is less boring, less braindead, and requires more attention? I think we're playing different games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

If you're doing a rotation and optimally using GCDs accordingly, along with healing, you have plenty to do. The main issue I feel that is going over a lot of people's head is healing vs DPS. You do both, not just one. If you do just one, you are playing your class incorrectly.

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The healer dps rotation is so simplified and basic that it's neither engaging or rewarding to pull off, and healing is frequently either an after thought or just not needed because the other healer is doing just fine. I fail to see how anyone can look at the healing design in this game and find it engaging. I feel it's even less complicated then 2.x PLD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zigabar

Because just healing is less boring, less braindead, and requires more attention? I think we're playing different games.

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Actually, the most fun I've had as a healer was when the main healer died and I suddenly had to spend the rest of the fight juggling sub 2k MP while both keeping the tank alive and keeping the party alive through the AoEs, while keeping SoS and Assize both on CD. It was actually engaging, which surprised me!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

The healer dps rotation is so simplified and basic that it's neither engaging or rewarding to pull off, and healing is frequently either an after thought or just not needed because the other healer is doing just fine. I fail to see how anyone can look at the healing design in this game and find it engaging.

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Regardless, this topic is not really about whether or not healing is engaging. The topic at hand is, if you only heal, thee is plenty of downtime where you do not do anything and there are people who stand around doing literally nothing during this downtime. This isn't about snowflake playstyles or being casual, it's about being lazy and using 2/3s of your kit.