The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Interesting, I have the opposite opinion. It is what makes healing so fun in this game. Each run is much more dynamic than a DPS. When I go on a first pull as my SMN, I do the exact same rotation each time. With a healer, it's more like a few rotations mixed in with priorities. Like, if my tank is dying faster than normal, I can't spam as many holies, or if it's barely taking any damage, I can DPS way more etc. I find the weaving of a DPS rotation in with healing with different tanks/DPS makes for each run to be different than the last.

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Different strokes for different folks. I'm much more likely to be watching YouTube on the side during runs when I can dps full time due to how boring it gets. "Tap fairy spam macro, Bio 2, Miasma, Bio, 6 Broil, refresh DoTs, Shadowflare and fairy spam and Broil ad infinitum". I don't get how people can find that fun personally but...

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Originally Posted by Odett

You have tons of cooldowns and each one can be used depending on what you're fighting and your current situation, but you never NOT use one if you are being hit by anything. If you die, and you had no defensive cooldowns up, then yes, it's more than likely your fault. If you overpull, and incorrectly gauge your cooldown usage, then that too, is more than likely your fault as well; that's part of our responsibility as tanks.

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It's too broad of a stroke for tanking. The cooldowns should ideally be used based on the circumstances. There's absolutely no reason to use cooldowns if you're doing small pulls (and I typically do this if this if the DPS is less than subpar AND the healer isn't dpsing, at that point more often than not they are overhealing me), even when you forego your tanking stance. A perspective or playstyle should never be absolute and there's always room for variance depending on what's going on.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's too broad of a stroke for tanking. The cooldowns should ideally be used based on the circumstances. There's absolutely no reason to use cooldowns if you're doing small pulls (and I typically do this if this if the DPS is less than subpar AND the healer isn't dpsing, at that point more often than not they are overhealing me), even when you forego your tanking stance.

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If a cooldown will be up for the next pull and you refuse to use it for your current pull, then you're essentially wasting it.

Furthermore, you have such a large and varied number of defensive cooldowns at your disposal that that is where your point about variance falls in and that's where I agree with you. Your cooldown usage will depend on the situation, but just not using cooldowns, especially one that will be up against for the next pull and giving your healer unnecessary trouble is something I cannot stand behind.

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Originally Posted by Odett

If a cooldown will be up for the next pull and you refuse to use it for your current pull, then you're essentially wasting it.

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This 100x. I generally rotate through my D cooldowns every pull so that one is always off cooldown and ready. Its a waste otherwise. You are a tank.... use those CD's. Unless its right before a boss then I normally save as many as I can. The longer ones anyways.

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Originally Posted by Odett

If a cooldown will be up for the next pull and you refuse to use it for your current pull, then you're essentially wasting it.

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I can't "waste" it if the healer is already overhealing me with cure Is the moment I take 600 from an auto attack. And just to throw it out, I use vengence and raw intuiton as a dps cooldown for my triple decimates ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, so I'm not really holding onto them, but I wouldn't consider them tanking cooldowns either.

Random thoughts:

I don't tank. I have a Savage-ready WHM, and my main is a BRD.

I wish more tanks would sync with their healers. Especially in PUG runs.

A healer's main priority is to heal. Period. Once that task is handled, DPS becomes an option.

I personally won't try to crank out DPS on my WHM if I'm in a PUG that I'm not familiar with. I will hold back and watch the tank and DPS, see how they play and what level of healing I need to provide on average, and then weigh that against the option of doing DPS (mostly Stone/Aero cast-throughs here and there). Given that a WHM not in DPS stance puts out junk DPS, I don't see why that's ever a factor in any group other than endgame progression raiding where every last drop of damage counts.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

It's exactly BECAUSE I want to enjoy my role that I dps as a healer.

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Exactly! Personally, it's not only about time efficiency, to me this is just a plus. What I love is when players are trying their best and willing to take some risks. I fall in love instantly when a tank asks "Hey healer, I will pull this entire section, ok?". I love to go blazing through content, its so much more fun. a wipe happened? Who cares, at least we tried and may have improved a bit as players.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Different strokes for different folks. I'm much more likely to be watching YouTube on the side during runs when I can dps full time due to how boring it gets. "Tap fairy spam macro, Bio 2, Miasma, Bio, 6 Broil, refresh DoTs, Shadowflare and fairy spam and Broil ad infinitum". I don't get how people can find that fun personally but...

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You must be trolling. God.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I can't "waste" it if the healer is already overhealing me with cure Is the moment I take 600 from an auto attack. And just to throw it out, I use vengence and raw intuiton as a dps cooldown for my triple decimates ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, so I'm not really holding onto them, but I wouldn't consider them tanking cooldowns either.

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I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what to tell you if you don't consider possibly one of the strongest defensive cooldowns in the game a tanking cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Odett

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what to tell you if you don't consider possibly one of the strongest defensive cooldowns in the game a tanking cooldown.

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Again, it depends on the circumstances. The 20% mitigaiton isn't going to be put to good use by the healer if they're going to cure me the moment my hp drops by 5%; they're already overhealing the hell out of me so I might as well work around that and get off an extra decimate during my berserk. Don't take what I said out of context; I'm not going to use vengence for dpsing if I know I have an upcoming tank buster or drainage tether, and I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to use it for dps on a lvl 60 dungeon boss if the healer can't keep up.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

You must be trolling. God.

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Not the first to say that. I don't find DPS as a healer fun. I've fallen asleep during runs when all I do is DPS. The only reason I bother running on my healer anyway is when I'm bored with my main class and delude myself intothinking iit's a change of pace.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Again, it depends on the circumstances. The 20% mitigaiton isn't going to be put to good use by the healer if they're going to cure me the moment my hp drops by 5%; they're already overhealing the hell out of me so I might as well work around that and get off an extra decimate during my berserk. Don't take what I said out of context; I'm not going to use vengence for dpsing if I know I have an upcoming tank buster or drainage tether, and I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to use it for dps on a lvl 60 dungeon boss if the healer can't keep up.

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Yes, I understand. I also hate it when I'm being heal spammed and it makes me wonder why I use my cooldowns when such things occur, but I also don't give lazy healers a reason to be correct. This is how I see it, at least: in order to triple decimate, you're using berserk and bloodbath and internal release, raw intuition, vengeance, and infuriate. When you're done with your 3 decimates and monsters are still up, you've used up all your preemptve defensive abilities and now your healer will have no choice but to heal you more frequently.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Not the first to say that. I don't find DPS as a healer fun. I've fallen asleep during runs when all I do is DPS. The only reason I bother running on my healer anyway is when I'm bored with my main class and delude myself intothinking iit's a change of pace.

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Any class in this game can be summed up in "do this and that, repeat 2000x", good DPSs will have some priorities like keeping dots and debuffs up, but thats about it, everyone will keep repeating over and over.

If you don't like it, if you find more entertaining to watch a youtube video than help your party members, you probably should quit, otherwise you are just being selfish, and probably has some sort of serious addiction to keep playing something that you don't like.

Wow, harsh! I love playing as a warrior or ninja in this game. Just because I don't enjoy the healer meta doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game. Sometimes I just want a break from being a bloodthirsty monster. o3o

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Wow, harsh! I love playing as a warrior or ninja in this game. Just because I don't enjoy the healer meta doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game. Sometimes I just want a break from being a bloodthirsty monster. o3o

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Not harsh, I just don't understand why you log in the game and que for a dungeon with 3 other players just to watch youtube and netflix. To me this is really selfish, idk, just my opinion. Ninja "rotation" (priorities) is even more boring.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

Not harsh, I just don't understand why you log in the game and que for a dungeon with 3 other players just to watch youtube and netflix. To me this is really selfish, idk, just my opinion. Ninja "rotation" (priorities) is even more boring.

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They really need to add some procs to Ninja, or do something interesting with it. My "rotation" has become so ingrained into my memory that I can let my mind wander elsewhere and put almost the same numbers. It's not even intentional, when the content is incredibly easy that it makes you fall asleep, and then the same is said for your rotation it becomes a boring experience. Too bad it's the only DPS Job that uses swords, and the only fast melee that doesn't have to bother with positionals (I don't consider positionals challenging in dungeons, just a chore).

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Originally Posted by Eothas

Not harsh, I just don't understand why you log in the game and que for a dungeon with 3 other players just to watch youtube and netflix. To me this is really selfish, idk, just my opinion. Ninja "rotation" (priorities) is even more boring.

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There's a difference between feeling 'forced' to do something, (DPS as a healer), and doing something because you enjoy it (maxing dps as ninja or Warrior). When I DPS as a healer, I don't consider it helping the group. I consider it carrying DPS that are so bad I have to throw out damage to kill things quickly. What I'd rather be doing is dealing with stricter healing checks. As a Warrior or ninja? It's what I signed up for.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

When I DPS as a healer, I don't consider it helping the group. I consider it carrying DPS that are so bad I have to throw out damage to kill things quickly.

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Group DPS does not have a cap. Your parties DPS could be the absolute best in the world and you throwing out a little DPS would still improve the dungeons speed.

Common misconception: Healer DPS doesn't do all that much.

As a SCH I can be right up there with the other DPS if I have a tank that's letting me be in cleric long enough to finish a full rotation by popping their cooldowns. If I can get off Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Aero + Bane in addition to my standard fast aoe damage Shadow Flare + Maisma II on every pull, our party may as well be 1 Tank x 1 Healer x 3 DPS. Tell me how that is not better.

And to say that "Healer DPS is boring gameplay, I'll go play a DPS class instead because that's so different and what an improvement"? Just...what? How does that even make sense?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

There's a difference between feeling 'forced' to do something, (DPS as a healer), and doing something because you enjoy it (maxing dps as ninja or Warrior). When I DPS as a healer, I don't consider it helping the group. I consider it carrying DPS that are so bad I have to throw out damage to kill things quickly. What I'd rather be doing is dealing with stricter healing checks. As a Warrior or ninja? It's what I signed up for.

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Please, this is not what we were talking about in the first place, and even then you are wrong, there is no hard cap for DPS, this already have been discussed a few pages back, you can go there and read.


You said in post #481 that healer "rotation" is boring because you have to repeat it "ad infinitum", and what about ninja? You have to repeat it and have NOTHING ELSE TO DO, as a healer I at least have other things to take care off, specially if I'm DPSing at the same time. And even if it were truly boring, it would still be selfish of your part to not help and watch Netflix, its really a disrespect with your party members. Should I queue for diadem and stay AFK looting? Just because I find it boring? ZzZzZzZ

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Group DPS does not have a cap. Your parties DPS could be the absolute best in the world and you throwing out a little DPS would still improve the dungeons speed.

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If they can't reach that speed without my help its still carrying. It's not as massive a carry, but it's still one.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If they can't reach that speed without my help its still carrying. It's not as massive a carry, but it's still one.

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Worst post of the day?

How DARE 2 dps can't pull the numbers of 3 dps!!!

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If they can't reach that speed without my help its still carrying. It's not as massive a carry, but it's still one.

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Right, because DPS can put out unlimited DPS if they try hard enough.

Say both the DPS and Tank are doing the most DPS as the class could possibly put out with their gear, and their clear is around 13 minutes long (I have no idea if that's an accurate number with those numbers, but whatever). There's literally nothing they could do at that point to speed up the dungeon as they're doing the most, but with Healer DPS they can cut off 3 minutes to take it down to 10. Now tell me, how are they meant to reach that 10 if they're putting out the maximum their class can put out given their situation?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If they can't reach that speed without my help its still carrying. It's not as massive a carry, but it's still one.

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There is a hard cap on DPS a single person can do that's dependent on gear, rotation knowledge and player skill. Tends to be in the 1400-1500 area for single target. Unless RNGesus is with you giving you insane crits, it's basically impossible to break that cap.

Assuming a dummy-ish fight, a set of absolutely exceptional DPS and Tank can probably push out 4100-4200 DPS. The White Mage I typically run with can put out 500-600 DPS when she's playing conservatively in dungeons. That's a 11.9-14.6% DPS increase, despite the other three members doing their absolute maximum damage.

The irony is that if you had a tank in DPS stance using DPS abilities and still managing to keep aggro from two DPS going all-out (Wow, holy crap that's a good team), what would you be doing as a healer?

1. Spam healing the tank
2. Nothing

So much more interesting and fun gameplay compared to Healer DPS, am I right? But we couldn't do that, we would be "carrying" our team...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

carrying, carry, carried

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You keep throwing this word "carry", but seems like YOU are the one being carried everytime, based on your posts.



Why some players get so defensive? Why its so hard to admit that there is room for improvement? Always excuses, excuses and more excuses. zzzz

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

The irony is that if you had a tank in DPS stance using DPS abilities and still managing to keep aggro from two DPS going all-out (Wow, holy crap that's a good team), what would you be doing as a healer?

1. Spam healing the tank
2. Nothing

So much more interesting and fun gameplay compared to Healer DPS, am I right? But we couldn't do that, we would be "carrying" our team...

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Somewhat true. I often end up in Pharos with Warriors who run the whole thing in Deliverance. I just have them pull everything between road blocks and by efficient use of their CD's I pretty well DPS the whole time as WHM. That is where WHM/SCH really shine is on AOE DPS.

This is War's in Deliverance in full STR as well (16000 HP).

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Blah, blah, blah... Let's see you finish a dungeon without a healer present.

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http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...477aa9ea8a.jpg

One example, from way back during the myth grind for Animus Weapons. I have more if needed.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Somewhat true. I often end up in Pharos with Warriors who run the whole thing in Deliverance. I just have them pull everything between road blocks and by efficient use of their CD's I pretty well DPS the whole time as WHM. That is where WHM/SCH really shine is on AOE DPS.

This is War's in Deliverance in full STR as well (16000 HP).

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I think we're saying the same thing here.

My point is that if the Tank and the DPS are spot-on and not needing to be "carried" by healer DPS, then they pretty much don't need healing anyway. It's not like you'd suddenly be dedicated healing like a good ol' boy: you'd be bored out of your mind if you refused to DPS.

Now who's getting carried? Hence, the irony.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

I think we're saying the same thing here.

My point is that if the Tank and the DPS are spot-on and not needing to be "carried" by healer DPS, then they pretty much don't need healing anyway. It's not like you'd suddenly be dedicated healing like a good ol' boy: you'd be bored out of your mind if you refused to DPS.

Now who's getting carried? Hence, the irony.

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Lol you are right, I read it all wrong. Your point was so good it went over my head.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Blah, blah, blah... Let's see you finish a dungeon without a healer present.

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Well I mean that's sorta besides the point since my friend and I 2-manned most of the lvl fifty dungeons for the Anima quest.
Neither of us was a healer.

So we go from healers needing to DPS to tanks needing to learn how to CD. legit.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

So we go from healers needing to DPS to tanks needing to learn how to CD. legit.

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I'm not sure how to read this.

If you mean Healers who want to focus on DPSing are telling the tanks to git gud, no. Did you read the thread? It's actually about expecting healers to DPS in their DOWNTIME. Their first priority is to keep the tank up. Nobody was debating this. Ever. However besides the point it may be though, expecting a tank to use their CDs IS reasonable. It makes sense to expect ANY role/job to use their whole given toolkit appropriately. Which is what I've been saying this whole thread.

If you're saying it's hypocrtical for a healer to refuse to use all the tools at their disposal while simultaneously expecting the tank to use all the tools at their disposal, then, yes, I agree.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

So we go from healers needing to DPS to tanks needing to learn how to CD. legit.

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Who are you, exactly? Have you contributed anything to this thread or do you just like to go around throwing holier-than-thou comments on every thread you visit? Sorry we can't keep you entertained.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

healers needing to DPS

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Yes

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

tanks needing to learn how to CD

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Yes

I'll get the next one for you...

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

DPS need to learn how to dodge AoE

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Out of curiosity, do you commonly go around spamming true comments in a sarcastic manner? I'm going to give it a shot.

So we go from the world being round, to the planet revolving around the sun? Seems legit.

Hmm, not as satisfying as I had hoped.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Yes


Yes

I'll get the next one for you...


Out of curiosity, do you commonly go around spamming true comments in a sarcastic manner? I'm going to give it a shot.

So we go from the world being round, to the planet revolving around the sun? Seems legit.

Hmm, not as satisfying as I had hoped.

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Dying...
10 char

Okay, the more I think about it, the more I think the only heal mentality is wrong.

Seriously, the Healer is going to spam heals and babysit the tank so the tank never has to use cooldowns or try either? It's like that playstyle deliberately saps all the fun out of the game for half the party.

/sigh I'm out.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Okay, the more I think about it, the more I think the only heal mentality is wrong.

Seriously, the Healer is going to spam heals and babysit the tank so the tank never has to use cooldowns or try either? It's like that playstyle deliberately saps all the fun out of the game for half the party.

/sigh I'm out.

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Yeah that's why I don't agree with the "if you're gonna heal spam me, I'm gonna play sub-par as well". You're not really winning, you're more thank likely proving your healer right.

@oddet

I can't quote on phone. It's a matter of picking your battles, I'm not gonna call out on the healer for only healing or spam healing, but I will bring it up if Dps is balantly slacking or his overheating is ripping aggro. Again in my circumstances, the defensive cooldowns itself isn't being utilized by the healer at if he's going to keep overhealing, I'm not mass pulling because the Dps can't or won't keep up, so I might as well use vengeance and raw to burst Dps and get the stuff dead faster. Also you don't need blood bath for triples, and you still have foresight, second wind and defiance equallibrium. The healer can't really heal me more frequently than he already is by using cute on every gcd

Editiiiiiiiiiing

On phone too

I didnt list Equillibrium and Convslescence because I said preemptive mitigation skills.

Whenever I see healers spamming me Ill tell them that its ok to let me fall below 50%. If all they do is heal spam me every time I fall under 100% still, then yeah, you\'re right, you cant really do much about that. I always pair up bloodbath with berserk just for the great self healing it gives, but if youre already constantly being topped off, that doesnt matter much either way.

With a SCH , Ill usually start a mass pull with Vengeance, build up 4 Wrath stacks, berserk+BB+IR, Deliverance, Decimate, Infuriate, Decimate. I feel like foregoing a triple decimate sometimes and using my Vengeance defensively at the start of a pull will give my healer more time to DPS, and then I can get my hp back with my BB Zerk burst rotation, but I guess that depends on group DPS as well and if you kill everything before you\'re squishy.