Yoshida-san: Please Give Us a BETTER System for Relics and Future 2.0 Challenges!

I'll only say this:

I fail to see the 'fun' in having to repeat the exact same activity 50-100 times in order to progress one step.

Make the content 10x longer or more difficult so I only have to do it 5-10 times.

Unfortunately, the present world was created around activities never needing more than 60 minutes (and often completed in 15 minute bite size chunks). Since each activity has to be short, one needs to do it many times in order to fill up months of time.

That, I fear, is the fundamental flaw in this world.

Counters, tokens, trackings, etc are only minor 'workarounds'. You still have to repeat it 100 times, and I think that is what neesd to be fixed.

Did almost 20 runs at Aurum Vale today. 8 individual chests per run, and i'm the only person that got a Mythril.

This drop rate is looooooooooow.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

but you see, it is easy in a way, the people getting it are doing it so much theyve had time to collect the seals they need

and a ton of people complaining...arent doing it AT ALL so of course they arent gonna make an progress

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How do you know that? Maybe half of these people don't want to test their f*cking luck and end up doing 200 Hamlets when someone else can get all their seals in 20 runs. That's not easy, that is tedious bullsh*t to waste our time. They could have and should have gave us a way that we can actually work towards, but they p*ssied out and didn't. Went with the craptastic drop system we have now and everything else is based on a mindless grind for some item that has a crappy drop rate.

Now after reading that and what EVERYONE else has complained about, it seems like you are still backing up this system. This coming from the person that has all class to 50. Not trying to group these people up or be mean, but it seems like the people with "more time on their hands" don't mind this endless, lucky as sh*t "grinding".

*nods* hopefully each post int he first page (at least) will be passed up. This RNG BS has gone on long enough. Raise the stupid re-entries (after WINs not after fails) just as long as we can have true progression... there are so many ways to do it... yet we have RNG and hours of spamming the same monotonous tasks for practically everything -_- ...

It is not fun, and fun is why we are all here.

I have absolutely no problem with the way this works... relic quests were not meant to be easy, to my understanding. They also weren't intended for every player to complete. When I think relic, I think of FFXI. Nothing wrong with it being long and tedious. I support however difficult they make this. The harder it is, the better.

It's like mountain climbing... beyond the hardships lays accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by Deku

I have absolutely no problem with the way this works... relic quests were not meant to be easy, to my understanding. They also weren't intended for every player to complete. When I think relic, I think of FFXI. Nothing wrong with it being long and tedious. I support however difficult they make this. The harder it is, the better.

It's like mountain climbing... beyond the hardships lays accomplishment.

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Thing is, its not hard. Its luck.

There is absolutely NOTHING DIFFICULT about LUCKING out.

Why do people confuse "Difficulty" with "Getting lucky on a random number"

Go roll a dice, was that hard? lol

Also due to this stupid "Luck", you will find that a lot more people have relics than you though, especially those who didnt really work for it and lucked out, versus those who dedicated nights and nights working towards it and havent made much progress.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

(That's a lot of likes)

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Assuming the forums represent the game populace's opinion accuratly at all....priceless.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Assuming the forums represent the game populace's opinion accuratly at all....priceless.

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I laugh hard at this when I see your Signature...

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With Over 300! likes and Yoshida personally interested we need your support!

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Lets bring back unique monster behavioural AI! (450 likes with dev response!)

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Priceless...

(Oh btw i like your posts in signature, i like both of them, and agree with both of them, but apparently those likes are all useless because everyone in game thinks otherwise! rite? XD)

But it doesnt matter, because its all general percentage. If people dont come on the forum, they dont get a say.

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1UP: A couple things in the game right now that seem to be, as Final Fantasy XI players might say, are "haunted by the ghost of Tanaka." For example, the Relic weapon quests that were just added yesterday seem to rely very heavily on luck. And this kind of thing is really discouraging to a lot of players. An element of luck is okay, but effort is more important. And there's always the thought that, yeah, if I do this enough times, I might get lucky and get it, but there's always the fear that they won't. Especially after the Ifrit and other boss battles. I know people say that they fought 75 times and they haven't gotten a weapon yet, and they're just really frustrated, and they're upset to see that same thing happening in other systems. So are there any plans to adjust the luck/effort balance of high-level content in the future?
NY: We can tell you that at version 2.0, a lot of things are going to be changing in this aspect. For example, like a token type of system, where if you do it enough times, you're going to get rewarded for doing it that many times. We also have something else prepared as well that's going to address this... we can't talk about it now, but we have many things in place that will address that issue.

And the other thing being that, the real need for the Need, Greed, and Pass type of system when things get dropped, things that are pretty much a global standard that we haven't achieved yet on Final Fantasy XIV. We understand that we have those problems, but with the current system, we can't address them. But we will be able to address them in 2.0 with the new system and the new engines. And so you can go back and tell the community that, come 2.0, we will actually have that global standard and you won't have to worry as much about these types of things. But again, that doesn't mean we're going to forget about our current version players. We're going to listen to the voices of the players, look at the forums, adjust drop rates to reduce as much stress as possible for the players so they can experience this grand finale, the Seventh Umbral Era story, that ushers in 2.0.

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thats the thing yoshi is good at..convincing people and making promises, why they didnt design better relic quests if he already knows what wrong with it the day after the patch? server issues or whatever in current version right? we know this story yoshi :D

so they are changing the AF/relic quests in 2.0? assuming they redesigned alot of the maps that means some of the AF/boss locations are changing too (dunno about the ones inside the dungeons)

relic quests are basically focused on all the contents we got in the last few patches and dunno what will change about materia system/Strongholds/hamlet but there will be changes.

so basically current relic quests is just to make current players have something to do.

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Originally Posted by Sehro

thats the thing yoshi is good at..convincing people and making promises, why they didnt design better relic quests if he already knows what wrong with it the day after the patch? server issues or whatever in current version right? we know this story yoshi :D

so they are changing the AF/relic quests in 2.0? assuming they redesigned alot of the maps that means some of the AF/boss locations are changing too (dunno about the ones inside the dungeons)

relic quests are basically focused on all the contents we got in the last few patches and dunno what will change about materia system/Strongholds/hamlet but there will be changes.

so basically current relic quests is just to make current players have something to do.

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I saw this, but I just dont get it, we have Token systems in game now (Primals) with Garuda being the best one. Yet some how he didnt apply the same thing to the relic even though he says he wants to apply that type of stuff in 2.0, dont get it, seems like he is saying what we'd like to hear.

But what does it matter, people will luck out and get relics all over by 2.0 and it be another meaningless non-rare weapon and those who tried over and over will be screwed over as usual until they eventually luck out.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

* Please STOP relying on the "Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate" to use as a Time Sink to keep the players busy. :(

[...]

Yoshida-san, this is essentially just "Rolling the Dice / Gambling / Playing the Lottery." It emphasizes REPETITION and DUMB LUCK to stretch out content.

[...]

But using Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rates to make things last longer *doesn't* make the content or rewards "difficult." It's simply the easiest, most mind-numbing way to stretch out content. :(

How about *rewarding* players for their *effort* and *skill* instead?

[...]

And note that we're *NOT* asking for everything to be "easy" or "given to us fast." Long Term Goals are OK (and I love them)! But we need to have Rewards Systems that actually reward Player Skill and Effort and provides Good Challenge, instead of just making us SPAM / Throw Ourselves at a certain task over and over and hoping for a Blind Luck Dice Roll. :(

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Thank you, Kiara, for finding the time, patience and energy to write this new post on the “Randomness/Spamming Content” matter.

I myself had already opened a thread on this, and now that everything got confirmed and is even worse than we could imagine, looking at those 300+ Likes, I'm glad that now other adventurers are seeing what this type of content really is.

I, for one, would really like to get my hands on the Monk weapon, shaped like a Great Coeurl (!)... but after discovering how ridiculous that quest is, mainly based on the Random Luck/Rolling the Dice factor, I simply let it go for the time being.

On the other hand, I'm a true Disciple of the Land and I cannot let go those ultra-cool-looking hats... and to give an idea of how badly conceived is the drop system, I've almost completed a total of 100 Hamlet Defense and I've yet to see a sign of those hats. Almost 100 Hamlets and not a single drop yet. It must be something like 1%...

And so I wonder why creating such a reward system. After all this time they finally release some Class-specific equipments for us gatherers, and what do they do? They place them as a Random Reward with an ridicolously low chance to obtain them, only based on luck.

Why, as a gatherer, I cannot truly earn those hats?

Let me swing my pickaxe in Coerthas 10.000 times, if needed.

Let me reach some extremely dangerous places, like speaking with the NPCs in Lasthold (I tie Exploration a lot with my Disciples of the Land Classes).

Let me gather 99 HQ Logs, Minerals or Fishes of the hardest type.

Just some ideas that would provide at least a bit of challenge and commitment, rather than just spamming the same content over and over just praying for Lady Luck.


What the devs should know is that not everyone has the gathering Classes leveled only for monetary purpose. There're certain adventurers who actually liked leveling them up and still enjoy playing them.
Why can't we have e concrete system to truly earn the finally released Class-specific equipments for Disciples of the Land?

These bad design choices of the Random/Luck Factor that arrived with the Speed Runs/AoE Feast of the instanced raids are a huge flaw.
The sooner the devs understand it and fix it, the better for most of the adventurers that on this very moment are still spamming those contents, with the same Classes and same strategy every time, not having fun in doing it, and just for a slim chance to get a drop.

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Originally Posted by viion

I saw this, but I just dont get it, we have Token systems in game now (Primals) with Garuda being the best one. Yet some how he didnt apply the same thing to the relic even though he says he wants to apply that type of stuff in 2.0, dont get it, seems like he is saying what we'd like to hear.

But what does it matter, people will luck out and get relics all over by 2.0 and it be another meaningless non-rare weapon and those who tried over and over will be screwed over as usual until they eventually luck out.

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You assume that there is all kinds of content and systems for 1.0, when we already know that 1.0 is hard to develop for, and create for, heck, look how long it took them to pull 1.0 around.

As a developer, I myself understand this... Do we focus more resources to something we are turning off in 4-6 months, or do we focus our efforts on new systems, and contents.

The basic idea for development is developing a strong "Core" to the game, from there, if you've done your job it becomes easy to expand off of that core. (I recently developed some software and version 1.0 was hard to expand, so we also did a 2.0 change, and from that we re-built the app to be more flexible and expandable, and now it's easy to add new features etc).

So from the current relic system, there are two options.
1. This system isn't perfect, so let's delay it until 2.0 - people will complain.
2. This system is tedious but it works and it will give players something to do until 2.0 - people will complain.

Yoshi-P has said multiple times that his effort and focus is on 2.0, and he will come back from patch to patch and direct 1.0, but 1.0 still has the "ghost of Tanaka" and the post said.

Personally, and IMO, his reference to a "token" type system refers to what people have called "karma" where you do the events, but the drop stays low, however, the more you do it the greater the chances of the drop.

While we don't have 2.0 to compare and contrast the development styles of Yoshi-P and Tanaka, I see one of two things happening come 2.0.

1. 2.0 will be more of the same with RNG, and whatnot...
2. Yoshi-P will deliver a game that will surprise a lot of people.

Ether way, he's doomed by the forums.

You can't make everyone happy. ;)

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

You assume that there is all kinds of content and systems for 1.0, when we already know that 1.0 is hard to develop for, and create for, heck, look how long it took them to pull 1.0 around.

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Ummm the token system exists already.... Primals use it. I dont assume that its there, IT IS THERE, Fact.

I also dont think you read the interview where he said they would use more of this stuff, as well as Need/Greed and then more different systems, so why you say they will be more random? I know N/G is random in some sense but you get a much higher chance as items are not forced into someone inventory or pool.

Also dont pull this "as a developer myself" crap lolol

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Originally Posted by viion

Ummm the token system exists already.... Primals use it. I dont assume that its there, IT IS THERE, Fact.

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Actually, the only proper token system in place right now would be Garuda, no? Seeing as Kupo Nut Charms/Inferno Totems can be as random/rare as the weapons themselves. Why they haven't made them 100% by now is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Eard

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they already stated that relics are long-term goal/achievements. read: LONG-TERM! its not something to be done in a week!

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Long term should mean long term, not randomly decided amount of time based on how lucky you are or aren't on any given day.

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

You assume that there is all kinds of content and systems for 1.0, when we already know that 1.0 is hard to develop for, and create for, heck, look how long it took them to pull 1.0 around.
...
You can't make everyone happy. ;)

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The system is present to do what everyone here is talking about. Everyone gets their own chest(primals, new mats from dungeons). Drop rate adjustments, which they obviously set. Tokens 100% from that individual chest, Garuda. None of these are "new" to this game, they just weren't implemented for these weapons. Rather than offer up gauranteed progress with a win they gave us "Step right up step right up and try your luck." Wait that's carnival stuff, "Slot machine" progress, you win you pull the lever maybe you get something.

You can make everyone not pissed. While they may not be happy they will not be disappointed by the blatant flaw in a system.

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Originally Posted by Doho

Actually, the only proper token system in place right now would be Garuda, no? Seeing as Kupo Nut Charms/Inferno Totems can be as random/rare as the weapons themselves. Why they haven't made them 100% by now is beyond me.

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Yeah what is that about. I'd have 9 Ifrit weapons by now if he actually dropped totems, well dropped them regularly.

Boohoo, I've done 5 hamlet runs in each area and still haven't gotten my relic in the first week. I mean, everyone should be able to get one; why not just hand them out at easter events?

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Originally Posted by Doho

Actually, the only proper token system in place right now would be Garuda, no? Seeing as Kupo Nut Charms/Inferno Totems can be as random/rare as the weapons themselves. Why they haven't made them 100% by now is beyond me.

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Well it is still a token system.

Ignoring Drop rate, you still :
1. collect something up,
2. hand in and pick an item of your choice.

That is the basis of a token system, and it is implemented, the "drop-rate" is not tied to the system as a whole.

And yeh I agree, they should of made Ifrit/Moogle 40 and made it 100% for 2 XD, would make things so much less of a grind/chore fest.

OP brings up some great ideas for non-random advancement. I only hope that the poorly put together relic weapon system we have right now is a temporary placeholder until 2.0. Hopefully SE reads this because I want to be as far away from our current 1% drop rate endgame as possible when 2.0 hits.

Yeah, people are way too whiney/crybaby if they don't get what they want exactly when they want it.

I played FFXI for almost 10 or so years... this game as I see it now is easy mode.

Wait for 2.0, until then don't complain because you are just kicking a dead man.

Good things will come to those who wait... and all that.

I'm actually really sick of the RNG system. It really disappoints me to see that developers took absolutely no feedback from players regarding the RNG system. Why exactly was the relic weapon quest delayed again? To figure out more ways to depress us?

I do find your answer here funny that we will have a better system in 2.0. Saying we will have the G/N/P system and all, which is great to that. Unfortunately, I am not playing 2.0 right now, I am playing 1.22b. Every time people bring this up, you give us nothing but vague answers to what we want to know.

Let me ask these questions SE, and I would love to hear you justify this...

Why does someone who did the dungeons half as much as me have a full set of Darklight (almost two sets), and I only have a pair of damn gloves? How is it fair that all the effort and time I wasted in your buggy dungeons for almost nothing? Please don't tell me "Just keep doing it!". No, just no. I have successfully beaten CC/AV together 450+ times. That is over 449 times I have been disappointed SE, 449 times. I have not even seen the pieces I want drop. Never even had an opportunity to have someone out lot me on them.

On Ifrit, I had beaten him over 200 times. Never got my Ifrit Blade. Look to the previous paragraph, same way I felt when I did this.

What upsets me the most is you actually put a good system in Garuda where you had tokens go towards a certain goal. Why in the hell was this not implemented into the relic weapons quest? I was starting to think the team was starting to finally get the picture. Apparently not.

While Hamlet Defense seals are not the worst thing in the world to get, it still faults itself by not dropping in appropriate places. If a team get 60k+ points, it should be guaranteed a seal. It upsets me we put the hard work in to get 60k+ and all we have to show for it is a head piece that everyone and their mother now owns.

I currently have a Mailbreaker in my inventory right now. Deciding to not attempt to double meld it until I get all nine of my seals, hoping the Acc+ materia drops in price by the time I get them. I am just scared I am going to be screwed over by the RNG system once again to double meld this. I just have a feeling I am going to get screwed over on this and go through 10 of them before I actually succeed.

And then we fall into the RNG system again for the six items you need from Miser and Chimera, which people are already confirming is an extremely crappy drop rate. I really feel like I am just being heavily played at this point.

How come other games made successful and hard methods to getting legendary weapons while playing it at fair game? Hell, your previous game, FFXI, was able to pull this off also. How long SE till you realize we don't want the RNG system at all? No one wants it, and the only people who do want it are people who are actually lucky or people who don't understand the concept of hard work and effort.

You can stop calling this a theme park, it is only a casino. At a theme park, you get in line, it is a long line, but you know if you know you are guaranteed to get on that ride eventually. At a casino, you either come out with something, or you don't.

Here is my request. I want a fair progression system for 1.xx, I do not want to wait for 2.0 for this. You need to make the next set of relic quests not based around this awful system. You need to make it difficult and fair that bases itself off small progression meeting a bigger goal. I don't want to pull a lever and hope for the best. It is just wrong and there is absolutely no way to justify this system, absolutely none.

I want to hear a direct and detailed response on why the team feels it is necessary that we have to deal with this system. Why they feel that they can't at least put in a token system for dungeons and other primals. I really want to hear a response. So reps, if you see this, and actually care, please urge SE to come out and give a better and more detailed answer to this than what vague statements you have been giving us.

Sorry long post. Here is a tl;dr version. >_>

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/21912898.jpg

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I'm actually really sick of the RNG system. It really disappoints me to see that developers took absolutely no feedback from players regarding the RNG system. Why exactly was the relic weapon quest delayed again? To figure out more ways to depress us?

I do find your answer here funny that we will have a better system in 2.0. Saying we will have the G/N/P system and all, which is great to that. Unfortunately, I am not playing 2.0 right now, I am playing 1.22b. Every time people bring this up, you give us nothing but vague answers to what we want to know.

Let me ask these questions SE, and I would love to hear you justify this...

Why does someone who did the dungeons half as much as me have a full set of Darklight (almost two sets), and I only have a pair of damn gloves? How is it fair that all the effort and time I wasted in your buggy dungeons for almost nothing? Please don't tell me "Just keep doing it!". No, just no. I have successfully beaten CC/AV together 450+ times. That is over 449 times I have been disappointed SE, 449 times.

On Ifrit, I had beaten him over 200 times. Never got my Ifrit Blade. Look to the previous paragraph, same way I felt when I did this.

What upsets me the most is you actually put a good system in Garuda where you had tokens go towards a certain goal. Why in the hell was this not implemented into the relic weapons quest? I was starting to think the team was starting to finally get the picture. Apparently not.

While Hamlet Defense seals are not the worst thing in the world to get, it still faults itself by not dropping in appropriate places. If a team get 60k+ points, it should be guaranteed a seal. It upsets me we put the hard work in to get 60k+ and all we have to show for it is a head piece that everyone and their mother now owns.

I currently have a Mailbreaker in my inventory right now. Deciding to not attempt to double meld it until I get all nine of my seals, hoping the Acc+ materia drops in price by the time I get them. I am just scared I am going to be screwed over by the RNG system once again to double meld this. I just have a feeling I am going to get screwed over on this and go through 10 of them before I actually succeed.

And then we fall into the RNG system again for the six items you need from Miser and Chimera, which people are already confirming is an extremely crappy drop rate. I really feel like I am just being heavily played at this point.

How come other games made successful and hard methods to getting legendary weapons while playing it at fair game? Hell, your previous game, FFXI, was able to pull this off also. How long SE till you realize we don't want the RNG system at all? No one wants it, and the only people who do want it are people who are actually lucky or people who don't understand the concept of hard work and effort.

You can stop calling this a theme park, it is only a casino. At a theme park, you get in line, it is a long line, but you know if you know you are guaranteed to get on that ride eventually. At a casino, you either come out with something, or you don't.

Here is my request. I want a fair progression system for 1.xx, I do not want to wait for 2.0 for this. You need to make the next set of relic quests not based around this awful system. You need to make it difficult and fair that bases itself off small progression meeting a bigger goal. I don't want to pull a lever and hope for the best. It is just wrong and there is absolutely no way to justify this system, absolutely none.

I want to hear a direct and detailed response on why the team feels it is necessary that we have to deal with this system. Why they feel that they can't at least put in a token system for dungeons and other primals. I really want to hear a response. So reps, if you see this, and actually care, please urge SE to come out and give a better and more detailed answer to this than what vague statements you have been giving us.

Sorry long post. Here is a tl;dr version. >_>

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/21912898.jpg

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I read some of that, but sorry not dedicating an hour to reading it all... all I hear is someone who is upset because they aren't getting exactly what they want, when they want it.

You are right, you are playing a non 2.0 version of FFXIV... SO WHAT? For god sake, they can't make it over night. They are focusing on the big picture, and not little temporary quick fixes which would be a waste of TIME and MONEY.

Stop crying! Either play the game now, and deal with it until 2.0... or DON'T PLAY, and come back when 2.0 comes out.

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Originally Posted by Deku

I read some of that, but sorry not dedicating an hour to reading it all... all I hear is someone who is upset because they aren't getting exactly what they want, when they want it.

You are right, you are playing a non 2.0 version of FFXIV... SO WHAT? For god sake, they can't make it over night. They are focusing on the big picture, and not little temporary quick fixes which would be a waste of TIME and MONEY.

Stop crying! Either play the game now, and deal with it until 2.0... or DON'T PLAY, and come back when 2.0 comes out.

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Heh deal with it in 2.0

Did you know, they had the right frame of mind in Garuda but did not fix Ifrit which would take 2 seconds, nore did the apply they same method to relic after?

Doesnt matter about 2.0 the frame of mind and design choices will stay no matter what version of the game where in, if he favours RNG now he will favour RNG later.

And dont be be a little uptard kid to someone if you cannot even be bothered to read their post.

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Originally Posted by Deku

I read some of that, but sorry not dedicating an hour to reading it all... all I hear is someone who is upset because they aren't getting exactly what they want, when they want it.

You are right, you are playing a non 2.0 version of FFXIV... SO WHAT? For god sake, they can't make it over night. They are focusing on the big picture, and not little temporary quick fixes which would be a waste of TIME and MONEY.

Stop crying! Either play the game now, and deal with it until 2.0... or DON'T PLAY, and come back when 2.0 comes out.

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I pay 9.99 a month for 1.xx right now, I will complain about it all I like.

And if you decided to read my entire post (which you shouldn't reply to unless you did). I in no way, shape, or form want easy content at all. All I want is the idea of knowing that each night I am progressing towards a goal, big or small, and in the future, I know I am guaranteed my prize if I keep working every night. In RNG, I may have to deal with the fact I won't ever get the piece I want before 2.0, which is pretty upsetting for all the nights I put into this game.

Relic isn't solo content, and non of it is solo content. The design of Relics is heavily based on the idea of community and while the "lucK" may suck it's only as bad as your weakest link when it comes to completing each task.

If you have a stable group of 8 any of the melee content is easy to do.

If you have crafters who can supply you with gear then you can have an easier time bonding gear to obtain IV materia.

If you have crafters who can make the weapon then you can get said weapon for a greatly reduced price and double melded on the spot.

If you lack the pillars which support the objective of a Relic of course it'll seem like a tough task, but when you have a group that works together to get the task done it's much easier.

Even when it came to relic/mythic/empyrean it wasn't one person who worked on obtaining the weapon, it was the LS working as a group to obtain the weapon a majority of the time, while there were those who did do it solo through earning gil and buying everything themselves they still needed help when it came down to doing the battle portions of said content. With the above it's not like it was done in a month (cept for empy) but to obtain the relic/mythic took months of work/luck to find what you needed through bazaars and to spend your money as wisely as possible.

Stop thinking of relics as "Man this is so tough to do by myself" and think of it more as something you do with your community of friends to accomplish. Are you going to deny the fact that it's easier to obtain relics when you have friends to help you then if you are someone trying to do it through pickup groups and lving your own crafts to do it all by yourself rather then the aid of your community of friends?

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I pay 9.99 a month for 1.xx right now, I will complain about it all I like.

And if you decided to read my entire post (which you shouldn't reply to unless you did). I in no way, shape, or form want easy content at all. All I want is the idea of knowing that each night I am progressing towards a goal, big or small, and in the future, I know I am guaranteed my prize if I keep working every night. In RNG, I may have to deal with the fact I won't ever get the piece I want before 2.0, which is pretty upsetting for all the nights I put into this game.

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True enough.

I came from almost a decade of FFXI, so this all just seems a little jibberish to me whatever the case is, though.

It took me years to get a relic, and also took me years to get my Ridill, before I even started my relic. (by "relic" I don't mean the base item, I mean the upgraded item. It was a huge grind in the long run whatever the case was).

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Originally Posted by viion

Heh deal with it in 2.0

Did you know, they had the right frame of mind in Garuda but did not fix Ifrit which would take 2 seconds, nore did the apply they same method to relic after?

Doesnt matter about 2.0 the frame of mind and design choices will stay no matter what version of the game where in, if he favours RNG now he will favour RNG later.

And dont be be a little uptard kid to someone if you cannot even be bothered to read their post.

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uptard kid.... haha okay.

Now that we have established the mature one, here...

First problem with this thread is the stress on RNG. Battle mechanics run of RNG. It is a good thing. The problem is balance. Games should never have a desired result with a probability of .001 - this probability may be theoretically possible but RNGs are notorious for skipping certain results because they are not truely random. This means that an RNG might never produce the rare drop because of strange factors... like something unique in the initializing number. One of the worst initializing numbers is exact time an action was initiated. Leads to weird results. All game mechanics should be driven by random number tables with flat probability curves for the table coordinates. Most games never implemented this scheme. The alternative to using tables is using probabilities of no rarer than .01 and hoping it doesn't gap too often. Rare events are not random. It is very hard to generate true random numbers... probably impossible. So...
Players have a good point. The rare drop rate for items needed to produce Relic Weapons is discouraging. It is not fun.

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Originally Posted by hrdndv

First problem with this thread is the stress on RNG. Battle mechanics run of RNG. It is a good thing. The problem is balance. Games should never have a desired result with a probability of .001 - this probability may be theoretically possible but RNGs are notorious for skipping certain results because they are not truely random. This means that an RNG might never produce the rare drop because of strange factors... like something unique in the initializing number. One of the worst initializing numbers is exact time an action was initiated. Leads to weird results. All game mechanics should be driven by random number tables with flat probability curves for the table coordinates. Most games never implemented this scheme. The alternative to using tables is using probabilities of no rarer than .01 and hoping it doesn't gap too often. Rare events are not random. It is very hard to generate true random numbers... probably impossible. So...
Players have a good point. The rare drop rate for items needed to produce Relic Weapons is discouraging. It is not fun.

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Right. There will always be some element of luck in a game, but make the system based off of it is where it went all wrong. In other MMO's, lets say a boss has 15 really good items, but only drops three of them, someone is guaranteed to walk out happy each time (of course cooldowns added to the boss so you can't just spam him). If you didn't get what you want, you were at least guaranteed tokens so you could purchase other items you are seeking. I hope a similar concept comes to FFXIV.

Overall, you need to be rewarded "something" worthwhile each run. The amount of complaints would drop dramatically if they just added a token system to dungeons and possibly relics.

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Originally Posted by viion

Ummm the token system exists already.... Primals use it. I dont assume that its there, IT IS THERE, Fact.

I also dont think you read the interview where he said they would use more of this stuff, as well as Need/Greed and then more different systems, so why you say they will be more random? I know N/G is random in some sense but you get a much higher chance as items are not forced into someone inventory or pool.

Also dont pull this "as a developer myself" crap lolol

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I think Doho responded with the right answer. Also marking it in red doesn't make it fact, still keeps it as "theory". You are making so many assumptions in your rebuttal.

I don't get where you got the idea that I said things will be "more random", so if you care to elaborate I can respond.

Thanks. :)

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

The system is present to do what everyone here is talking about. Everyone gets their own chest(primals, new mats from dungeons). Drop rate adjustments, which they obviously set. Tokens 100% from that individual chest, Garuda. None of these are "new" to this game, they just weren't implemented for these weapons. Rather than offer up gauranteed progress with a win they gave us "Step right up step right up and try your luck." Wait that's carnival stuff, "Slot machine" progress, you win you pull the lever maybe you get something.

You can make everyone not pissed. While they may not be happy they will not be disappointed by the blatant flaw in a system.

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I agree 100%, it is possible to do that, and yes they could have done this better. But that still comes down to a list of priorities.

At the end of the day, the system is what it is, from the interviews I can see them bringing in some updates in the c patch or even 1.23, but I don't see any real changes until the 2.0 beta and then the release. And by real I mean the big changes. :)

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

I think Doho responded with the right answer. Also marking it in red don't make it fact, still keeps in as "theory". You are making so many assumptions in your rebuttal.

I don't get where you got the idea that I said things will be "more random", so if you care to elaborate I can respond.

Thanks. :)

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Not making any assumptions, have you not done any Primals? They have a token system attached to them. You should check it out then you might understand what im saying

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1. 2.0 will be more of the same with RNG, and whatnot...

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Elaborated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

I agree 100%, it is possible to do that, and yes they could have done this better. But that still comes down to a list of priorities.

At the end of the day, the system is what it is, from the interviews I can see them bringing in some updates in the c patch or even 1.23, but I don't see any real changes until the 2.0 beta and then the release. And by real I mean the big changes. :)

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Their priority is keeping us happy. Pretty much the main point of 1.xx right now is to hold us over till 2.0 comes. They are trying to keep their customers. RNG only influences people to eventually give up and stop playing. I believe this is a priority.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Their priority is keeping us happy. Pretty much the main point of 1.xx right now is to hold us over till 2.0 comes. They are trying to keep their customers. RNG only influences people to eventually give up and stop playing. I believe this is a priority.

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Good point.

And I agree, not a big fan of RNG. If it was tied with some of the suggestions of the OP then I believe it will work better. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Their priority is keeping us happy. Pretty much the main point of 1.xx right now is to hold us over till 2.0 comes. They are trying to keep their customers. RNG only influences people to eventually give up and stop playing. I believe this is a priority.

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I think they've lost sight of that. They've been so concerned with prolonging content that they made a loot system that has really embittered many people towards the game (at least in our LS)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viion

Not making any assumptions, have you not done any Primals? They have a token system attached to them. You should check it out then you might understand what im saying

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I've done Ifrit and Moogle and am familiar with how the system works.

You are making assumptions, I'd keep pointing them out but then again we are just going back and forth and getting away from the true point of the matter.

I'll elaborate on the quote you made and took out of context.

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While we don't have 2.0 to compare and contrast the development styles of Yoshi-P and Tanaka, I see one of two things happening come 2.0.

1. 2.0 will be more of the same with RNG, and whatnot...
2. Yoshi-P will deliver a game that will surprise a lot of people.

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When I say that "2.0 will be more of the same with RNG and whatnot..." I'm talking about the issues that have been brought up in this thread, as well as other threads on the forums. I'm not saying it will be more random at all... Only that it will be "more of the same" aka 1.xx.

Now this is just one of the option, the other is that he could surprise a lot of people, meaning that the game will meat or exceed peoples expectations. This is going to be hard, but not impossible for the majority of players.

What I'm talking about here is the difference between 1.xx and 2.0, between Yoshi-P and Tanaka and their two development styles.

Basically is the system and most of the updates that 1.xx received locked into a framework where RNG is the prime option? Meaning, is it harder to develop something that isn't based off of RNG in 1.xx? I don't know.

And until we get our hands on 2.0 will we truly be able to contrast the two versions, and the two development styles of XIV. Then we will truly see a game that Yoshi-P has created, and not something that the 1/2 the development team kept going to keep us happy until 2.0.

Does that make since? :)

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

I think they've lost sight of that. They've been so concerned with prolonging content that they made a loot system that has really embittered many people towards the game (at least in our LS)

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You're not alone in regards to the embittered side of it... However, I still wonder if they had much choice in the matter of "prolonging content". Meaning that, while a gamble, they didn't have many other options easily at their disposal. This is just an assumption, as I have no idea how hard 1.xx is to develop on, but basing these thoughts off of how long it took them to develop the content and bring it out, looking at their track record for 1.xx updates.

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Originally Posted by viion

I saw this, but I just dont get it, we have Token systems in game now (Primals) with Garuda being the best one. Yet some how he didnt apply the same thing to the relic even though he says he wants to apply that type of stuff in 2.0, dont get it, seems like he is saying what we'd like to hear.

But what does it matter, people will luck out and get relics all over by 2.0 and it be another meaningless non-rare weapon and those who tried over and over will be screwed over as usual until they eventually luck out.

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Well said Premium, Elasandria.

While Yoshi P's 1-Up Interview seems to give us some hope, a *Measurable Progression System already exists* right now in the game:

The Totems from Primals. And Garuda specifically with a 100% Totem Drop Rate per Victory.

It's definitely not like Yoshi P and the Combat Team needed to spend resources to "design / write a brand new Tracking / Point System" and thus, decided to focus on 2.0 instead. As much as I support Yoshida-san, that answer smacks of something of a disconnect or a placation / cover-up. And we don't Need or Greed to fix the problems with the current Relic Weapon Quest.

He has the system in place.

Ultimately it seems like the Designers in charge of the Relic Weapon Quest Design chose the most MIND-NUMBING, LAZY way to prolong content with the Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate % / Luck / Gambling method.

Seriously, I wonder if some of those Designers enjoy Gambling / playing the Lottery in real life and think all players around the world must "love" Gambling, and rolling the Dice for Relic Weapons as well. :(

They could've easily implemented numerous ideas brought up by people on the forums (and in this thread also) to add some Challenge and/or at least Measurable Progress with each Victory / Step of the way, with minimal impact to their 2.0 schedule.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Well said Premium, Elasandria.

While Yoshi P's 1-Up Interview seems to give us some hope, a *Measurable Progression System already exists* right now in the game:

The Totems from Primals. And Garuda specifically with a 100% Totem Drop Rate per Victory.

It's definitely not like Yoshi P and the Combat Team needed to spend resources to "design / write a brand new Tracking / Point System" and thus, decided to focus on 2.0 instead. As much as I support Yoshida-san, that answer smacks of something of a disconnect or a placation / cover-up. And we don't Need or Greed to fix the problems with the current Relic Weapon Quest.

He has the system in place.

Ultimately it seems like the Designers in charge of the Relic Weapon Quest Design chose the most MIND-NUMBING, LAZY way to prolong content with the Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate % / Luck / Gambling method.

Seriously, I wonder if some of those Designers enjoy Gambling / playing the Lottery in real life and think all players around the world must "love" Gambling, and rolling the Dice for Relic Weapons as well. :(

They could've easily implemented numerous ideas brought up by people on the forums (and in this thread also) to add some Challenge and/or at least Measurable Progress with each Victory / Step of the way, with minimal impact to their 2.0 schedule.

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The problem is, most likely will happen is they will mostly ignore us on this claim, and just let us complain about it till 2.0 hits, and make us forget about it.

They forget we are paying customers "now" and don't pay 9.99 a month for half-ass service and promises in the next version. We pay for what it is right now, and I know we all want a detailed response in this matter. They need to stop being so vague with the answer and give us a detailed explanation on why they believe this is the best system for us. A lot of this also revolves around communication issues. They won't explain to us why it is this way. The most we have gotten from them is "We acknowledge you are not in favor of it.". Even in the 1UP review, Yoshida wouldn't go into detail.

Is there technical issues that don't allow it? Is the 1.xx team simply not creative? Do they not know how to prolong content? Was our feedback on this matter considered when creating the relic weapon quests?

These are questions I really want answers to. Hopefully when Yoshida is settled back in Japan, he will see this and come out and explain the situation.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I'm actually really sick of the RNG system. It really disappoints me to see that developers took absolutely no feedback from players regarding the RNG system. Why exactly was the relic weapon quest delayed again? To figure out more ways to depress us?

I do find your answer here funny that we will have a better system in 2.0. Saying we will have the G/N/P system and all, which is great to that. Unfortunately, I am not playing 2.0 right now, I am playing 1.22b. Every time people bring this up, you give us nothing but vague answers to what we want to know.

Let me ask these questions SE, and I would love to hear you justify this...

Why does someone who did the dungeons half as much as me have a full set of Darklight (almost two sets), and I only have a pair of damn gloves? How is it fair that all the effort and time I wasted in your buggy dungeons for almost nothing? Please don't tell me "Just keep doing it!". No, just no. I have successfully beaten CC/AV together 450+ times. That is over 449 times I have been disappointed SE, 449 times. I have not even seen the pieces I want drop. Never even had an opportunity to have someone out lot me on them.

On Ifrit, I had beaten him over 200 times. Never got my Ifrit Blade. Look to the previous paragraph, same way I felt when I did this.

What upsets me the most is you actually put a good system in Garuda where you had tokens go towards a certain goal. Why in the hell was this not implemented into the relic weapons quest? I was starting to think the team was starting to finally get the picture. Apparently not.

While Hamlet Defense seals are not the worst thing in the world to get, it still faults itself by not dropping in appropriate places. If a team get 60k+ points, it should be guaranteed a seal. It upsets me we put the hard work in to get 60k+ and all we have to show for it is a head piece that everyone and their mother now owns.

I currently have a Mailbreaker in my inventory right now. Deciding to not attempt to double meld it until I get all nine of my seals, hoping the Acc+ materia drops in price by the time I get them. I am just scared I am going to be screwed over by the RNG system once again to double meld this. I just have a feeling I am going to get screwed over on this and go through 10 of them before I actually succeed.

And then we fall into the RNG system again for the six items you need from Miser and Chimera, which people are already confirming is an extremely crappy drop rate. I really feel like I am just being heavily played at this point.

How come other games made successful and hard methods to getting legendary weapons while playing it at fair game? Hell, your previous game, FFXI, was able to pull this off also. How long SE till you realize we don't want the RNG system at all? No one wants it, and the only people who do want it are people who are actually lucky or people who don't understand the concept of hard work and effort.

You can stop calling this a theme park, it is only a casino. At a theme park, you get in line, it is a long line, but you know if you know you are guaranteed to get on that ride eventually. At a casino, you either come out with something, or you don't.

Here is my request. I want a fair progression system for 1.xx, I do not want to wait for 2.0 for this. You need to make the next set of relic quests not based around this awful system. You need to make it difficult and fair that bases itself off small progression meeting a bigger goal. I don't want to pull a lever and hope for the best. It is just wrong and there is absolutely no way to justify this system, absolutely none.

I want to hear a direct and detailed response on why the team feels it is necessary that we have to deal with this system. Why they feel that they can't at least put in a token system for dungeons and other primals. I really want to hear a response. So reps, if you see this, and actually care, please urge SE to come out and give a better and more detailed answer to this than what vague statements you have been giving us.

Sorry long post. Here is a tl;dr version. >_>

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/21912898.jpg

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Hi Velhart,

Great post! Very well worded and summarizes many of the people's feelings on this. (I bolded some of my favorite points by you above.) :)

I'm in the same boat as you regarding stuff like Darklight from Aurum / Cutter's and even the original Ifrit Weapons. I have beaten Ifrit well over 250 times (I stopped counting), and I STILL don't have Ifrit's Harpoon after all those attempts. I know people who got 7/7 Ifrit Weapons in less than 75 Wins. How is this fair? Or fun?

For Darklight, I've never even seen most of the pieces drop. At some point, people stop caring.

And an excellent analogy rebuttal to Yoshida-san's "Theme Park" description of FF XIV originally. At least at a Theme Park, when you wait in line for a ride, *you will get to experience it* (each "person in line ahead of you" is like a Totem / Point in Measurable Progress towards your goal). Here with Darklight, Materia Melding, Relic Weapon Quest (multiple steps), etc., it really is a CASINO. You're standing in front of a slot machine just mindlessly pulling the lever, hoping one day you might get LUCKY, or just end up looking like those soulless, empty-eyed gamblers sitting in front of a slot machine forever just pulling and pulling the lever until you quit or lose everything.

There's no skill, NO ounce of fun in rolling the dice. It's more of a sense of pent up RELIEF if you actually get a lucky dice roll now (if you happen to get a Seal, or a Double Meld, etc.).

I sincerely hope the Community Reps pass along our thoughts to Yoshida-san and the Relic Weapon Design Team.

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

I've done Ifrit and Moogle and am familiar with how the system works.

You are making assumptions, I'd keep pointing them out but then again we are just going back and forth and getting away from the true point of the matter.

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So you're saying Ifrit, Moogle and Garuda currently dont have a token system and im just "assuming it does"?

I cant even talk with you if you think that and are unaware of the tokens....