Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

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Originally Posted by Zoloe

Anyone ever play Ragnarok Online? Two jobs from one isn't exactly a new or unheard of thing. :P

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It's not that people care about 2 jobs from one. Is the fact that you only gain 1 job skill every 10 lvls making the job feel more like the class it came from which in essence would make the 2 jobs from said class feel the same.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

It's not that people care about 2 jobs from one. Is the fact that you only gain 1 job skill every 10 lvls making the job feel more like the class it came from which in essence would make the 2 jobs from said class feel the same.

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no matter how I look at it abolishing the classes in favor of the jobs would be the easiest way to have diverse and dynamic jobs. If not each job would have to have 1 class to keep jobs from being too similar, OR each class has different skills depending on weapon equipped, like to use the gld > pld & DRK example, if the gladiator has a greatsword equipped, he has a completely different, DD focused, skillset that translates in tot he DRK class. If there is anything to take from GW2 it might be this concept of a different skill pallet based on weapon. This way hell ud have the freedom to make as many jobs as you want branch of classes as long as each one uses a different weapon.

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Originally Posted by Azurus

no matter how I look at it abolishing the classes in favor of the jobs would be the easiest way to have diverse and dynamic jobs. If not each job would have to have 1 class to keep jobs from being too similar, OR each class has different skills depending on weapon equipped, like to use the gld > pld & DRK example, if the gladiator has a greatsword equipped, he has a completely different, DD focused, skillset that translates in tot he DRK class. If there is anything to take from GW2 it might be this concept of a different skill pallet based on weapon. This way hell ud have the freedom to make as many jobs as you want branch of classes as long as each one uses a different weapon.

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I had made this suggestion before for throwing weopons. Instead of just throwing them, switch to them and have skills based on them.

@Azurus: I think the idea of classes are neat (solo and very flexible with high reward on learning other classes (use their skills)) but I think there should be less classes then jobs and that the jobs level themselves as unique entities, whether they take skills from the classes that were required to obtain the advanced job or not is if makes sense to include (not because the system dictates it so).

Because if you abolish classes entirely you lose some flexibility but if you maintain on the 1.0 course you lose individuality. (I believe your system would work too but you will lose class flexibility (but at least get job individuality))

Any bombing of the system will take a lot of time to rebalance though.. like maybe a month delay (or more if things to to hell).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I think the idea of classes are neat (solo and very flexible with high reward on learning other classes (use their skills)) but I think there should be less classes then jobs and that the jobs level themselves as unique entities, whether they take skills from the classes that were required to obtain the advanced job or not is if makes sense to include (not because the system dictates it so).

Because if you abolish classes entirely you lose some flexibility but if you maintain on the 1.0 course you lose individuality.


Any bombing of the system will take a lot of time to rebalance though.. like maybe a month delay (or more if things to to hell).

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look at my suggestion about tiring skills more to the weapon than the class itself, this would allow very flexible combos in the armoury system AND make us not have to level 1000 jobs haha

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Originally Posted by Azurus

look at my suggestion about tiring skills more to the weapon than the class itself, this would allow very flexible combos in the armoury system AND make us not have to level 1000 jobs haha

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I think that is a good idea. It would make more sense as well - armory system has to do with the gear. Feels a bit like FFIX, perhaps even could entertwine materia into the system deeper.

Having a set of abilities come from a weapon would also mean that different types of weapons would be easier to make compareable (higher dps on one but perhaps better spells on another)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I think that is a good idea. It would make more sense as well - armory system has to do with the gear. Feels a bit like FFIX, perhaps even could entertwine materia into the system deeper.

Having a set of abilities come from a weapon would also mean that different types of weapons would be easier to make compareable (higher dps on one but perhaps better spells on another)

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Agreed. I like this idea a lot. :D

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

Some people( you know who you are) are getting way too hung up on the weapon problem. Godseijuro Hiko especially talking down to people he thinks dont understand, use your imagination a bit. Anyone remember how gla used to use dagger? or how cnj and whm can use both wand and staff?

IF drk gets added to gla it doesnt have to be as restrictive as you think. They can make GS or scyth that gla/drk can use but pld cannot. Also the 5 quested abilities can be very drk themed. We can also give them the freedom to experiment with the job a bit more instead of just demanding a copy of FFXI drk.

They could also add a thf class that can use gun/dagger/katana which would later branch into ninja and musketeer(lore friendly: considering the musketeers were pirates first)

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The people you think I was talking down to did not. When you say something and people either ignore it, just to tell you about their great love for the class system and how perfect it is, while not speaking on what the necro guy brought up, they don't get it. I also stated that they were ignoring it on purpose.

As the last few people in the thread have said, 1.0's system was flawed. That's all that was being talked about. Many people have posted how they like the system, but it would need to be reworked. How do you converse with people who just keep harping, "The class system is great,GTFO!"

5 Dark themed abilities won't do much to alter the massive amount of tank themed abilities and traits from the Gladiator. Won't make it any less of a tank.

Fast Blade
Rampart
Phalanx
Aegis Boon
Enhanced Physical Defense
Savage Blade
Enhanced Rampart
Flash
Shield Bash
Swift Aegis Boon
Sentinel
Enhanced Physical Defense II
Flat Blade
Enhanced Flash
Riot Blade
Enhanced Physical Crit Resilience
Outmaneuver
Enhanced Sentinel
War Drum 38
Enhanced Physical Defense III
Tempered Will
Enhanced Outmaneuver
Rage of Halone
Enhanced Flash II
Goring Blade

The problem became more apparent soon as they decided that sentinel was no longer a class to level up, and only when you had a shield. Then again, in Tactics, dark knights were able to use them.
Minus the weapon skills, Do you notice the trend with the traits? I figured it would be easier to just spell it out in a nice list, since you know, I like talking down to "everyone."
Using my imagination, I can come up with 5 ultra dark themed abilities + weapon skills but my brain is still telling me it's still a tank. So, I'll go with what was used before.

Sanguine Sword
Infernal Strike
Crushing Blow
Abyssal Blade
Unholy Sacrafice

Those taken straight from my favorite FF, Tactics.

Is anti FFXI, the only thing people can come up with? No one is asking for Final Fantasy XI. If you must know, When I think dark night, I think of FFIV and FFT. Nothing gladiator offered, hints that it's anywhere close to being a dark night.

Imagination is awesome, but without some perspective, it runs wild.

The restrictions, we're so hung up on, is deeper than you're making it out to be. You just straight up made a dark job in your head with Defensive abilities... and it's because classes are tied to weapons, it makes it hard introducing new ones without having a class tied to them or, a job that would be able to use them in the future. I don't personally care if you like me or not, but if all you have to say to our thoughts are, "you're hung up on this, we don't need it to be like final fantasy xi, you're talking down to people who you think don't understand, let's not talk about this anymore," then you should probably don't read. Just lurk, demonize us in your head, and just move along. (which is obnoxious imo, but people keep trying to shut up the convo.)

I don't really want classes to go, but I'm not going to dismiss their argument just because I don't like it. It makes sense that classes became kinda obsolete when jobs were introduced. Like I said in other posts which you conveniently forgot to mention, we're just engaging in talk, and I'm personally excited to see how Yoshi tweaks this.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Hmm, I don't think the Class system has really gotten an opportunity to shine with the Job system yet. While perhaps not completely necessary to have, it does offer some good footing for areas like PvP, where classes that can customize itself more may be more beneficial than a Job which only excels in certain areas.

I "kind of" look at it as a talent tree from other MMO's. The Class System looks weird just because it really hasn't given you options yet.

I will try some examples:

I am a new Gladiator who just started the game. My weapons available to me are a sword+shield or a two-handed sword. I am given the option to focus on being a tank or become a DPS. That lv.1-30 area gives me the opportunity to decide which feeling or style of play I enjoy more. When I reach lv.30 I decide that I enjoy DPS more, which I decide to become a Dark Knight. What I also like is if I decide down the road I don't enjoy one role, I can start Paladin and see if that sparks for me.

WoW actually approaches classes like this also, not to the extent of FFXIV, but they do put you on a blank slate before choosing your role. Like if you are a Paladin in that game, the first ten levels gives you a little access to all roles you can become. Lv.10 comes around and then your talent tree is activated and you choose which role you prefer the most. Rather it be Retribution(DPS), Holy(Healing), or Protection(Tanking). You are given the option within a class.

FFXIV does almost the same exact thing as I said above. Perhaps to more of a extreme level, but I do get the purpose of keeping the Class system intact. They have already said in the past that Classes will still have it's advantages. My guess mostly is on the PvP side like I said above. Assuming you can still use abilities of other classes. It does actually sound clunky in a balance sense, but I guess we will see how they decide to approach it.

tl;dr: The Class system can work, it just needs time to flourish itself.

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You know, that branching path thing seems like a swell idea. Made me very excited to think about lol.

I'm going to side with reality here and say that the class system is here to stay.

You may not like it, but them's the breaks. You're welcome not to play, or to invest a little faith in Yoshida and his team after all of his hard work and actually give him time to work this system into something better than what we had in 1.xx.

Personally, I don't expect the class/job system to be fully evolved in ARR and I don't really care. I enjoy the current system and I'm glad they have the groundwork to add more depth to it.

The one thing people don't realize that restricting it just the job system hamstrings the potential growth of this game. Instead of Job and Class quests it's just Job quests, instead of Job based items and roles and class based items and roles it's just one. You're narrowing your scope for the sake of being a unique little snowflake.

Any and all limitations by having a dual system like class and Job can be overcome by simply expanding on it. Issues with Dark Knight attached to Gladiator can be lifted by creating a secondary weapon type for each class (Greatsword for the case of Gladiator) and given that we wanted a diversified weapon system in this game, this fufills a request while adding further depth to the system as a whole.

In the end my plea is to give this guy some time. He just spent the entirety of two years making a game that should have taken him five, given the normally yield of games out of Square Enix's internal development. It's going to be vanilla version all over again so keep that in mind with the base systems.

So it's going to be a while before we see the fruits of this labor develop. For now, just think of the classes as sub-forms of the jobs and leave it be at that.

i think people just need to look at it differently and it all can work, give a gladiator a different weapon and he has a different skill set. instead of thinking class tied to weapon, think job/skills tied to weapon, the class just has 2 different ways to play it. hell its as easy as making 2 "classes" both called gladiator, the only thing is if u equip a 2 hander u have the one gladiators skills, u switch to sword and shield u become the other gladiator. I think this system would appease everyone.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I'm going to side with reality here and say that the class system is here to stay.

You may not like it, but them's the breaks. You're welcome not to play, or to invest a little faith in Yoshida and his team after all of his hard work and actually give him time to work this system into something better than what we had in 1.xx.

Personally, I don't expect the class/job system to be fully evolved in ARR and I don't really care. I enjoy the current system and I'm glad they have the groundwork to add more depth to it.

The one thing people don't realize that restricting it just the job system hamstrings the potential growth of this game. Instead of Job and Class quests it's just Job quests, instead of Job based items and roles and class based items and roles it's just one. You're narrowing your scope for the sake of being a unique little snowflake.

Any and all limitations by having a dual system like class and Job can be overcome by simply expanding on it. Issues with Dark Knight attached to Gladiator can be lifted by creating a secondary weapon type for each class (Greatsword for the case of Gladiator) and given that we wanted a diversified weapon system in this game, this fufills a request while adding further depth to the system as a whole.

In the end my plea is to give this guy some time. He just spent the entirety of two years making a game that should have taken him five, given the normally yield of games out of Square Enix's internal development. It's going to be vanilla version all over again so keep that in mind with the base systems.

So it's going to be a while before we see the fruits of this labor develop. For now, just think of the classes as sub-forms of the jobs and leave it be at that.

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Well said. People should realize that a job simply expands a specific role of the class itself. Enhancing your ability to take on that role in parties. Dragoon for example in the current version, the only difference between that and a Lancer is that it gets a few more abilities and an increase in DPS power. At it's core, it is still using the Lancer concepts.

(*Warning to those who like to steer off discussion, these are only examples I came up with from a good source called my imagination, don't think otherwise*) You can give that Lancer a different role like uhh...lets say Samurai for the hell of it. You can either give him a GK or spear and make him a parry tank that focuses on WS's to hold hate and increase their VIT. At it's core though, it will be a Lancer that has only enhanced it's abilities in one area with a few extra things to work with to keep hate. Think of the Lancer itself as the between. It's survivability is better than a Dragoon's, but it's DPS is better than a tanking Samurai.

tl;dr No matter what job you slap on a class, ultimately at it's core it is still that class, just enhanced in a certain role.

We are not saying there will be 2-3 jobs per class, but this type of system opens up possibilities for various roles(jobs) for one class.

Even though I currently have everything at 50. It would feel nice if I was a new player and leveled a class to 50 and knew I had choices within that class. Like if there was a class that offered a DPS and tanking job. Depending on what my party wants me, I can slap one on or the other.

I wonder what the actual reason for not scrapping the armoury system entirely is? It certainly wasn't because it was this great unique system that everyone likes and is better than in any other MMO thats for sure.

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Originally Posted by Thebard

I wonder what the actual reason for not scrapping the armoury system entirely is? It certainly wasn't because it was this great unique system that everyone likes and is better than in any other MMO thats for sure.

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Because the Armory System itself is not a bad concept at all, and was actually one of the current FFXIV's better qualities at release. However, the old team poorly balanced it and was not being used in their intentions. Even after many fixes, the system itself was great, but pretty awful to balance (Like the whole PLD vs. WAR thing during CC/AV prime.), but the content itself was in fault also on that one. Starting clean in 2.0 however, they have the opportunity to take a crack at the Armory System again and not only make it work well, but actually make it better than it ever was (hopefully).

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Because the Armory System itself is not a bad concept at all, and was actually one of the current FFXIV's better qualities at release. However, the old team poorly balanced it and was not being used in their intentions. Even after many fixes, the system itself was great, but pretty awful to balance (Like the whole PLD vs. WAR thing during CC/AV prime.), but the content itself was in fault also on that one. Starting clean in 2.0 however, they have the opportunity to take a crack at the Armory System again and not only make it work well, but actually make it better than it ever was (hopefully).

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Sorry can't agree.
The armoury system didn't work, DoL & DoH were supposed to be on an equal footing with DoW & DoM and participate alongside them, it didn't take long before it was clear that was dumb idea.
Then they added jobs, which the armoury system was never meant to have at all. Why did they add them? Because the armoury system was a failure and people were crying.
If you like the armoury system thats fine, but don't tell me its good because it never worked from day one.

What you have given me is not the real reason its the fanboy/white knight reason.

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Originally Posted by Azurus

i think people just need to look at it differently and it all can work, give a gladiator a different weapon and he has a different skill set. instead of thinking class tied to weapon, think job/skills tied to weapon, the class just has 2 different ways to play it. hell its as easy as making 2 "classes" both called gladiator, the only thing is if u equip a 2 hander u have the one gladiators skills, u switch to sword and shield u become the other gladiator. I think this system would appease everyone.

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That sounds very FFXI-ish :)

A sam with a polearm was still a sam, but he had that sweet penta thrust :)

Not a bad idea honestly. If they find a way to keep classes and work jobs out, man this game is going to be very GODLY. That's just this man's opinion.

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Originally Posted by Thebard

Sorry can't agree.
The armoury system didn't work, DoL & DoH were supposed to be on an equal footing with DoW & DoM and participate alongside them, it didn't take long before it was clear that was dumb idea.
Then they added jobs, which the armoury system was never meant to have at all. Why did they add them? Because the armoury system was a failure and people were crying.
If you like the armoury system thats fine, but don't tell me its good because it never worked from day one.

What you have given me is not the real reason its the fanboy/white knight reason.

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Well didn't you read what I said? I said the idea and concept of the Armory System is great, but it had poor execution. A "It sounds better on paper." type of thing. The better quality I refer to is the freedom of choice at any given time on one character, which a rare plus in the MMO industry. It just failed to meet it's goal to be a working system, but that doesn't mean it can't be fixed and improved. The job system was a step in the right direction because it helped better define your role in the party. Was it perfect? No, it came with it's set backs because it was still dealing with the original system in a way.

2.0 is a fresh start and gives them the opportunity to again make a good Armory System that won't be plagued with horrible imbalance and segregation of jobs in parties. Can I tell you it will be successful and proves you can fix a some-what broken system? No. Actually that may be too harsh, because it wasn't "that bad", but give SE the benefit of the doubt this time, I am sure they wouldn't implement it again if it couldn't balance itself properly.

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Originally Posted by Thebard

Sorry can't agree.
The armoury system didn't work, DoL & DoH were supposed to be on an equal footing with DoW & DoM and participate alongside them, it didn't take long before it was clear that was dumb idea.
Then they added jobs, which the armoury system was never meant to have at all. Why did they add them? Because the armoury system was a failure and people were crying.
If you like the armoury system thats fine, but don't tell me its good because it never worked from day one.

What you have given me is not the real reason its the fanboy/white knight reason.

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What you said is partly true. Honestly though, the armory system, or it's intent, was one of the better qualities of the game. Swapping abilities to forge your own role. Sweet idea. That's what I think he meant. Yet since the game's foundation was so bad as we all know, even the good things about the game fell through.

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Originally Posted by GodseijuroHiko

What you said is partly true. Honestly though, the armory system, or it's intent, was one of the better qualities of the game. Swapping abilities to forge your own role. Sweet idea. That's what I think he meant. Yet since the game's foundation was so bad as we all know, even the good things about the game fell through.

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No, actually it was changed because the players complained about it. That's why it has many more limitations now. Skills were like pokemon, gotta catch them all to make one good class. This made every class feel the same which was bad.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

No, actually it was changed because the players complained about it. That's why it has many more limitations now. Skills were like pokemon, gotta catch them all to make one good class. This made every class feel the same which was bad.

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And Yoshi wanted class individuality himself, he thought it was hard to tell them apart as well. (Just saying it wasnt just players).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

And Yoshi wanted class individuality himself, he thought it was hard to tell them apart as well. (Just saying it wasnt just players).

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Correct, but it was a large part of the player poll which is what I meant

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

Correct, but it was a large part of the player poll which is what I meant

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Yeah I got you, just thought people should know it wasnt like a mass bitch and SE is like ugh ok fine we do what you want.

It was a yeah we agree with you players its kinda bad.

( I dont care for the difference but I know some people are like SE's way or the highway )

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

No, actually it was changed because the players complained about it. That's why it has many more limitations now. Skills were like pokemon, gotta catch them all to make one good class. This made every class feel the same which was bad.

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Oh right, I remember that. It's really been two years huh? Back when people were complaining they needed multiple 50s to be good at anything. Man, just remembering it has me thinking of how much of a hott mess it was.

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Originally Posted by GodseijuroHiko

Oh right, I remember that. It's really been two years huh? Back when people were complaining they needed multiple 50s to be good at anything. Man, just remembering it has me thinking of how much of a hott mess it was.

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Remember guild traits, needed almost all them too

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

Remember guild traits, needed almost all them too

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Lol, I still remember Thaum being a better tank than gla!

I'm keeping a good bit of faith in the upcoming battle system. Yoshi's on a roll.

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Originally Posted by GodseijuroHiko

Lol, I still remember Thaum being a better tank than gla!

I'm keeping a good bit of faith in the upcoming battle system. Yoshi's on a roll.

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If you didn't have the acher trait you would run sooooo slow with your weopon out. On leves you would have to go into passive mode to run so you wouldn't fall behind,lol

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

If you didn't have the acher trait you would run sooooo slow with your weopon out. On leves you would have to go into passive mode to run so you wouldn't fall behind,lol

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I think that was the lancer trait :o and yea, the running speed was the cause of many deaths!

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Originally Posted by GodseijuroHiko

I think that was the lancer trait :o and yea, the running speed was the cause of many deaths!

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oh yea, it was the archer that got the ability

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Well didn't you read what I said? I said the idea and concept of the Armory System is great, but it had poor execution.

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Personally I don't see any way to implement the Armory system well without it causing either massive restrictions, or massive homogony.

Classes at launch were "Jack of all trades" for everything it made the meele/mage classes boil down to not being able to do much unique. Now that they adressed the uniqueness with jobs the class system is hampering that very direction directly, you can't do it half way or both systems will just feel half baked.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Personally I don't see any way to implement the Armory system well without it causing either massive restrictions, or massive homogony.

Classes at launch were "Jack of all trades" for everything it made the meele/mage classes boil down to not being able to do much unique. Now that they adressed the uniqueness with jobs the class system is hampering that very direction directly, you can't do it half way or both systems will just feel half baked.

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I don't see how they will do it either, but hey, I guess that is why I don't work for SE. I'm sure their lead battle programmers have come up with something that works out well and helps you keep better management of balance in classes/jobs.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I don't see how they will do it either, but hey, I guess that is why I don't work for SE. I'm sure their lead battle programmers have come up with something that works out well and helps you keep better management of balance in classes/jobs.

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How Yoshida talks and works thus far it does seem so (the team has a plan). But its always better to be skeptical about things that are practically impossible to change in hind sight (like a battle system). 4 Years from now SE going "The system sucks.. woops" wouldnt be any good lol.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I'm going to side with reality here and say that the class system is here to stay.

You may not like it, but them's the breaks. You're welcome not to play, or to invest a little faith in Yoshida and his team after all of his hard work and actually give him time to work this system into something better than what we had in 1.xx.

Personally, I don't expect the class/job system to be fully evolved in ARR and I don't really care. I enjoy the current system and I'm glad they have the groundwork to add more depth to it.

The one thing people don't realize that restricting it just the job system hamstrings the potential growth of this game. Instead of Job and Class quests it's just Job quests, instead of Job based items and roles and class based items and roles it's just one. You're narrowing your scope for the sake of being a unique little snowflake.

Any and all limitations by having a dual system like class and Job can be overcome by simply expanding on it. Issues with Dark Knight attached to Gladiator can be lifted by creating a secondary weapon type for each class (Greatsword for the case of Gladiator) and given that we wanted a diversified weapon system in this game, this fufills a request while adding further depth to the system as a whole.

In the end my plea is to give this guy some time. He just spent the entirety of two years making a game that should have taken him five, given the normally yield of games out of Square Enix's internal development. It's going to be vanilla version all over again so keep that in mind with the base systems.

So it's going to be a while before we see the fruits of this labor develop. For now, just think of the classes as sub-forms of the jobs and leave it be at that.

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No one is disputing that classes are here to stay, and it's pretty lame that you tell people to quit the game and play something just because what were talking about may or may not be considered. This is as much our game as it is yours. You should respect those terms.

The argument about making a class have two different weapons, that have two different ability sets is redundant. If they go that far to give a weapon all the bells and whistles to make it its own, it might as well be a new class entirely. And Gladiator will stay Gladiator, and great sword will stem a new class.

The classes are designed for solo play, and being a class means you can take more skills from other classes for solo survivability. The system just hasn't been tuned properly since the addition of Jobs.

However, remove the class system and you have FFXI all over again with its horrible balancing and certain(most) jobs not being able to survive alone nearly as well as others.

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Originally Posted by Ronik

I've been putting a lot of thought into this lately. We already know from developer letters and posts that a Job system is coming which will feature specialized combat roles. Once this system is implemented, there will be little to no reason to ever use a class role. Why would I play Gladiator when Paladin is better equipped to tank? Why even have the option to be a Marauder if I am fully expected to use Warrior in any and every combat situation? In short, the class system will go unused once we have access to jobs. Why should we bother keeping the class system in-game if it unnecessarily complicates things?

What I propose is the following:

A) All current classes are renamed as follows:

Gladiator → Paladin
Marauder → Warrior
Pugilist → Monk
Lancer → Dragoon
Thaumaturge → Black Mage
Conjurer → White Mage
Archer → Ranger

B) Class abilities are re-assigned as necessary. E.g. Black Mage would receive the nukes/debuffs from Conjurer, but the buff/heal spells would go to White Mage.

C) All references in-game to the previous classes are simply edited and updated. Guild names are updated, NPC references to classes are edited, etc.

I firmly believe that having a job-only system would be an improvement in every which way over the current plan of classes co-existing alongside jobs. For one, traditional job names are part of long-established "Final Fantasy" lore. This will make the game feel more familiar to all the FF fans out there. Secondly, I cannot fathom a single situation where we would want to be entering combat as a class rather than as a job.

The way I see it, the class system is a relic from the old-development direction of this game, and we no longer need it. I cannot see any cons to removing the class system. Cross-job abilities would need to be examined, but surely the cost of doing so is greatly compensated by the benefit of an elegant and simple system which, due to experience with FFXI, we KNOW will work.

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No. It gives you less customization. What there doing is like FFXI's advanced Jobs. Work your ass off as a THM(or was it CJN? havn't been on in awhile.), you get WHM.

I personally prefer the removal of classes and just have jobs. Then have it people need to swap jobs via an NPC in town. I sorta dislike the whole swap on the fly classes/jobs.

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Originally Posted by RoyalSibby

No. It gives you less customization. What there doing is like FFXI's advanced Jobs. Work your ass off as a THM(or was it CJN? havn't been on in awhile.), you get WHM.

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If you haven't been on in some time, how can you make an informed opinion on what gives you more/less customization. We have no idea what they're planning, we're just pointing out roadblocks brought about by the old system. Some have even given thought to how they feel would be the best way to overcome them.

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Originally Posted by xXHalloweenTrixXx

I personally prefer the removal of classes and just have jobs. Then have it people need to swap jobs via an NPC in town. I sorta dislike the whole swap on the fly classes/jobs.

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No need to go that far, they can simply just lock you into your job once you enter certain instances. as for open world stuff job changing at a crystal seems more reasonable. Still, I think jobs on the fly fits better. Your opinion is welcomed though!

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Originally Posted by Reika

The classes are designed for solo play, and being a class means you can take more skills from other classes for solo survivability. The system just hasn't been tuned properly since the addition of Jobs.

However, remove the class system and you have FFXI all over again with its horrible balancing and certain(most) jobs not being able to survive alone nearly as well as others.

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I keep seeing this "classes for solo, jobs for party" slogan going on. No one is arguing that. (Though thaumaturge is the only worthwhile solo-er *least effort anyway*imo)

This game will only become FFXI if they add sub jobs after removing classes (which they probably won't). It would probably be more like Tactics if classes were removed. The game already has balance issues in terms of solo potential. War, BLM/Thm, and Conj/Whm seem to be top solo. Most classes, I'm aware, are still able to solo in this game, but pound for pound, those mentioned have it much easier.

Using Final Fantasy XI bitterness as a reason for keeping classes is _________

The addition of Jobs sure did add some complications to the system indeed :)

I like the way its worked myself gives more to the mix though only using one class to base the stats off of is kinda off..
but it can be fixed by giving jobs a differet stat base then class

they just need to treat the classes the same as the jobs, give them AF & relic, give them good moves that jobs cant use. make content just for classes. jobs are just the soul in the story.

class AF & relic would have to be "new" not old and dusty.

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Originally Posted by Shadow_Sama

No one is disputing that classes are here to stay, and it's pretty lame that you tell people to quit the game and play something just because what were talking about may or may not be considered. This is as much our game as it is yours. You should respect those terms.

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This isn't your game, this isn't my game. This isn't our game. This is Square Enix's game. Is it built for us? Yes, but we do not own it. There will be design decisions people will disagree with, but will not change. And if they disagree with it venomously enough, it becomes a determent to the community to hear them sit and scream endlessly about it. And if it is a game-breaker for you, it is best that you leave instead of remaining to gripe. It is better for the plaintive, as it quickens the time they'll actually find a game that suits them, and it is better for those who don't need to hear the complaints causing unneeded tension in the forums.

For situations not so extreme there needs to be a deciding point where people learn to just hush up about things they don't like, but will tolerate, especially when you know you will make no headway. Otherwise, you're just blowing steam for the sake of blowing steam and it gets on the nerves of more than just myself. It's just self-gratification at that point, and there's no actual discussion to be had.

And I won't pretend to be tolerant of that sort of behavior. I consider it a base courtesy to know when to bow out quietly and let the lack of a subscription do the talking, and I did so with FFXI. And this is where we're at with the Class system, even if you disagree with it. It is here to stay, it is not going to be eliminated because people see it as a flawed. Instead of insisting on your way and no others, it is better instead to seek a compromise. If you are beyond compromise, you are beyond reason and should not be taking part of what should be a civil discussion.

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The argument about making a class have two different weapons, that have two different ability sets is redundant. If they go that far to give a weapon all the bells and whistles to make it its own, it might as well be a new class entirely. And Gladiator will stay Gladiator, and great sword will stem a new class.

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That is a possibility, but, one that may not necessarily be the case when things are dolled out pragmatically.

Let's talk possible progress routes for a class bearing more than one weapon type. Gladiator is the best example because of how dramatic the differences are.

Instead of considering a full on ability set swap. Some enhancing skills or even weapon skills (Such as Goring Blade) can be shared between the two weapon types. Of course, in the case of Gladiator this might mean giving them additional neutral abilities to chose between, but we did ask for a larger library of skills that define jobs and classes.

Let's assume that we have 2 jobs per class when the system is fully developed.

We can have a set of skills that are neutral between two weapon types and may or may not be usable by each job.

Then we can have skills unique to that weapon style of class and its corresponding job.

We can already chose to differentiate ability libraries depending on what job you equip. (For Example, a Dragoon only has access to Pugilist and Archer skills.) This can be done further by limiting what class skills are available within that said class when converted into a Job. (Of course the trade off would be more skills unique to the Job itself.)

There's lots that can be done to flush out the system and make it more viable. This concept of cutting things out because you don't like it, when really thus far it's been primarily optional to use it to begin with, makes me wonder what the motives behind such complaints really are. I don't know if it's just ignorance or a desire for simplicity, but the intent to cut out content really does seem like players want to hamstring themselves from better gameplay.