An open discsusion on the consequences of death

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Originally Posted by PandaTaru

SP loss with possibility to buy it back make no sense at all. It's pretty much like having no SP loss but with an extra step.

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Umm... except that you would have to lose either Gil or Anima (preferably Anima) to get it back.

<my bad>

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Umm... except that you would have to lose either Gil or Anima (preferably Anima) to get it back.

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it's not like anima is something easy to get by either. Anima lose vs SP loss would make SP loss look like a joke.

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Originally Posted by PandaTaru

dude hold your horses and use the search feature to check what I posted against SP/EXP lose. lol.

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Huh?

/10char

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Why does everyone still think that SP loss would come with ranking down?

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I doesn't necessarily have to, but that's what happened in FF11, and that's what most people relate to.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Essentially, we both have the same discouragement: Anima loss. But the SP loss system allows people to choose... they can choose to either lose SP or lose Anima. In your system, you have to lose Anima.

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Yeah, they have to lose anima if they die, but accompanied with the adjustments are made to how anima is used, it wouldn't be such a big deal. My adjustment of letting you "return" for 0 anima would save much more anima than you'd lose by dying. Also, with more transport options to choose from, anima wouldn't be that valuable anymore. Besides - casual players will have lots of anima anyway sine they don't play that often.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

To some people, their Anima is more useful to them than their SP.

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Hmm, really? I don't think so, personally.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

And what about when someone reaches 0 Anima? Then it's no different than it is now and they are free to just die over and over, wasting everyone's time.

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What about it? If they die over and over, they'll never get anymore anima, they will get a reputation for being a terrible player, and they'll never be able to get the "staying alive" bonus. There's enough reasons not to die even if you have 0 anima.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Not saying your idea is necessarily bad, but there are a couple of holes, and I don't see "positive reinforcement" as the most effective (and you still have negative reinforcement in there too, so it's ends up in a wash anyway).

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I don't really see the holes you mention.

"Positive reinforcement" is the best form of encouragement. Getting praised for being good is more fun then getting punished for being bad.

I do still have negative reinforcement. Just a little. I didn't say I wanted to do away with it completely. I said I wanted the emphasis to be on positive rather than negative. Like, 75% positive, 25% negative.

FF11 was 100% negative - which made death scary, yes, but it put off a lot of players.

If this system were 100% positive, that too would be a little too "carebear" and boring.

That's why I think a nice mix would appeal to the most players while not reducing enjoyment for anyone.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Huh?

/10char

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I replied thinking you were replying to me as you replied pretty quickly after my last post, but then re-reading it it wasn't for me :P my bad, I'm tired.

This is an idea also... since life is so precious... I am not sure if is out there yet cuz i havent seen it, but i am talkin about auto-raise. How about if the FFXIV add auto-raise to the game not as a Spell but as you doin a one time pay to a NPC only in the area you are atm. I am talkin about lots of money tho since life worth a lot... just to make it a lil real... i mean we got raise but u need another person to raise... but thats only when you are in a party... how about if you are lvling or doin a lvl quest by ur self... lets keep in mind this game also is base on you doin things on your own... is not like ffxi... but hey it just an idea... just trying to help :)

@ Kaedan

Oh, one more thing about your "buyback" plan. I understand what you're trying to do, and the goals are good, but the implementation is a little flawed from a cost/benefit and game design standpoint.

If players can buyback lost SP by spending gil or anima, they will ALWAYS do that. Every. Single. Time. We are overflowing with gil as it is, and otherwise people will never go below, say, 20 anima, so that they'll always have a buffer to counteract the SP loss. Basically, 20 anima will become the new 0 anima.

If you give the players a "choice" of buyback, but they ALWAYS do the buyback option, it's not much of a choice, is it? You may as well have it be gil or anima loss on death, because effectively, it will come to that result 99% of the time anyway.

Also, if they risk losing SP permanently when dying while still under weakness, players will always just stay at the crystal after death 99% of the time to be safe (unless they have to reclaim a NM or something).

It's much easier to prevent death once you've already died and returned: just stay put.

It's much harder to prevent death the first time.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Yeah, they have to lose anima if they die, but accompanied with the adjustments are made to how anima is used, it wouldn't be such a big deal. My adjustment of letting you "return" for 0 anima would save much more anima than you'd lose by dying. Also, with more transport options to choose from, anima wouldn't be that valuable anymore. Besides - casual players will have lots of anima anyway sine they don't play that often.

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I am also all for making Return cost 0 Anima.

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Hmm, really? I don't think so, personally.

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1 Anima = 4 hours. You can get a LOT of SP in 4 hours.

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What about it? If they die over and over, they'll never get anymore anima, they will get a reputation for being a terrible player, and they'll never be able to get the "staying alive" bonus. There's enough reasons not to die even if you have 0 anima.

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Exactly. Your system is actually HARSHER than my system. At least with a SP loss/buyback system, you can choose between losing SP and losing Anima.

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I don't really see the holes you mention.

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-Your system forces you to lose Anima only. SP loss system allows you to choose between SP loss or Anima loss.
-When someone's Anima drops to 0, we are back in the same boat we're in now.

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"Positive reinforcement" is the best form of encouragement. Getting praised for being good is more fun then getting punished for being bad.

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Actually, this is continually debated by psychologists and professionals in Law enforcement and Correction. It cannot be determined one way or the other which is more effective... there are good cases for both. I'm personally against positive reinforcement as a deterrent to negative action since I am more convinced by that side of the scientific argument.

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FF11 was 100% negative - which made death scary, yes, but it put off a lot of players.

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Agreed. Which is why I suggested an alternate system which is discouraging, but not too harsh. As I said, your system is actually more harsh than mine, since you don't have the choice between losing SP and losing Anima.


So how about this? No loss of anything... no durability loss, no SP loss, no Anima loss. We just increase the weakness timer to 10 minutes. Since time is the most valuable asset in MMOs, that should be a viable deterrent.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

@ Kaedan

Oh, one more thing about your "buyback" plan. I understand what you're trying to do, and the goals are good, but the implementation is a little flawed from a cost/benefit and game design standpoint.

If players can buyback lost SP by spending gil or anima, they will ALWAYS do that. Every. Single. Time. We are overflowing with gil as it is, and otherwise people will never go below, say, 20 anima, so that they'll always have a buffer to counteract the SP loss. Basically, 20 anima will become the new 0 anima.

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No, they won't.

1 Anima = 4 hours. You can gain a lot of SP in 4 hours.

You are making the false assumption that everyone will always buy it back. It's still a choice.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

No, they won't.

1 Anima = 4 hours. You can gain a lot of SP in 4 hours.

You are making the false assumption that everyone will always buy it back. It's still a choice.

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well i mean its also a choice to use the repair npc but very few people do

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Actually, this is continually debated by psychologists and professionals in Law enforcement and Correction. It cannot be determined one way or the other which is more effective... there are good cases for both. I'm personally against positive reinforcement as a deterrent to negative action since I am more convinced by that side of the scientific argument.

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Yes but that's IRL and I doubt you can relate what happen IRL to a game. For the record, over praising a kid/child IRL can drive him/her to severe psychological pathology the same way as if you had over-scolded that same kid/child.

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So how about this? No loss of anything... no durability loss, no SP loss, no Anima loss. We just increase the weakness timer to 10 minutes. Since time is the most valuable asset in MMOs, that should be a viable deterrent.

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that's what we already have and it would just be the same but on a longer timer.

In case of you missed what some people wrote in this thread, FFXI death wasn't only scary but it also made people not help each others because they knew/feared they would lose EXP during a BCNM/Mission/<random> quest and stuff.
The last thing a game should teach people is selfishness. Really.

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Originally Posted by PandaTaru

Yes but that's IRL and I doubt you can relate what happen IRL to a game. For the record, over praising a kid/child IRL can drive him/her to severe psychological pathology the same way if you had over-scolded that same kid/child.

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Exactly. People are people, whether it's a game or RL. Psychology doesn't change.

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that's what we already have and it would just be the same but on a longer timer.

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Yes, that was my point. I was mostly being facetious, but I would actually be ok with increasing the weakness timer to 10 minutes. That would make it impossible for "chargers" to actually complete content and would cost something very significant to MMOs... Time.

And the sad part is, many of the people screaming against SP would be ok with increasing the weakness timer... but what they don't realize is that it's the same thing in different packaging, which is really sad.

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In case of you missed what some people wrote in this thread, FFXI death wasn't only scary but it also made people not help each others because they knew/feared they would lose EXP during a BCNM/Mission/<random> quest and stuff.
The last thing a game should teach people is selfishness. Really.

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I didn't "miss" it at all. I've specifically acknowledged it, actually. I have suggested a system that is much less penalizing than FFXI. So what's your point?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

So how about this? No loss of anything... no durability loss, no SP loss, no Anima loss. We just increase the weakness timer to 10 minutes. Since time is the most valuable asset in MMOs, that should be a viable deterrent.

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Not really. "time" is situational. I loose nothing if I'm about to log off, or go have lunch or the millions of other things that time does not matter, in that it's a "free multi-task".

It's not a hard system to implement, it's just really stupid social one. That's why the XP loss system is so freakin easy to advise.

It's a simple mathematical formula to get balanced. If 20% is too harsh, you do 10% if 10% is too light, you do 15% etc, until it's acceptable.

Where the alternative is to throw in some crazy ideas, or some combination of annoyances, etc, that are even harder to balance, because they are infinitely more complex, and harder to stabilize.

Sure it's tricking the mind where "anything but xp, anything~!" doesn't exactly have a difference in terms of penalty

The idea of "buy back" doesn't make it a any less harsh system, it simply offers a compromise between "casuals" or "squealers" vs "hardcore" etc.

Like promising a candy to a kid after a needle shot, because...he's a kid. The candy is hardly worth the price of a needle shot.

I would straight up favor XP loss, because I know it's a simple mind trick. But I also know the squirmish need to be fooled, so buyback isn't exactly a bad idea...the idea of XP debt for instance was the approach or armor loss, etc.

An alternative I have seen is called "state locking" Where death, put you into a "state where you can't advance". And it can't be rid of till you get X/Y amount of XP or some other non-constant situation.

Say a death would add 5 minutes to a "state locked" where you can't level up, or change equipment, or trade, etc. And can't be removed till physically go to a special area, and state in that area for xyz amount of time. The area being isolated can make it an even harsher penalty then simply XP loss, but it does trick the mind that you did not lose anything, when in reality, you lost a lot by doing things you didn't want to do.

AKA: the old penalty box trick

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Originally Posted by PandaTaru

In case of you missed what some people wrote in this thread, FFXI death wasn't only scary but it also made people not help each others because they knew/feared they would lose EXP during a BCNM/Mission/<random> quest and stuff.
The last thing a game should teach people is selfishness. Really.

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you are twisting the truth. the penalty created the sense of danger. players act upon this variable. it is what drives the mentality and player base. ffxi's death penalty is true in that it actually offers sandbox elements to an mmo. no one is going to help you on a suicide mission without some form of compensation. gather the proper team and go at it. this is what linkshells are for.

this kiddie themepark mentality of the community is extremely discouraging. 90% of the lost subscriber base was expecting ffxi elements. i will just leave it at that....

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Not really. "time" is situational. I loose nothing if I'm about to log off, or go have lunch or the millions of other things that time does not matter, in that it's a "free multi-task".

It's not a hard system to implement, it's just really stupid social one. That's why the XP loss system is so freakin easy to advise.

It's a simple mathematical formula to get balanced. If 20% is too harsh, you do 10% if 10% is too light, you do 15% etc, until it's acceptable.

Where the alternative is to throw in some crazy ideas, or some combination of annoyances, etc, that are even harder to balance, because they are infinitely more complex, and harder to stabilize.

Sure it's tricking the mind where "anything but xp, anything~!" doesn't exactly have a difference in terms of penalty

The idea of "buy back" doesn't make it a any less harsh system, it simply offers a compromise between "casuals" or "squealers" vs "hardcore" etc.

Like promising a candy to a kid after a needle shot, because...he's a kid. The candy is hardly worth the price of a needle shot.

I would straight up favor XP loss, because I know it's a simple mind trick. But I also know the squirmish need to be fooled, so buyback isn't exactly a bad idea...the idea of XP debt for instance was the approach or armor loss, etc.

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Yeah, I was mostly being facetious. I still support my original idea. And yes, buyback is merely a compromise between hardcore and casual... which was my entire point. Casuals want no death penalty, hardcores want more severe penalties. I'm trying to find a middle ground.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Casuals want no death penalty, hardcores want more severe penalties. I'm trying to find a middle ground.

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SE need to sell Final Fantasy values to the casuals, instead of selling casual compromises to the FF crowd. The middle ground is where we currently reside, a bland experience truly satisfying to neither.

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Originally Posted by Fieros

SE need to sell Final Fantasy values to the casuals, instead of selling casual compromises to the FF crowd. The middle ground is where we currently reside, a bland experience truly satisfying to neither.

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I disagree. I believe the current system highly favors casuals and neglects moderate and hardcore players. Though I do agree that the current system is bland and unsatisfying. Which is why I suggested a system that is somewhat penalizing to please the hardcore crowd, and very forgiving to please the casuals.

SE wants both players...

So what are you defining as FF values?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I disagree. I believe the current system highly favors casuals and neglects moderate and hardcore players. Though I do agree that the current system is bland and unsatisfying. Which is why I suggested a system that is somewhat penalizing to please the hardcore crowd, and very forgiving to please the casuals.

SE wants both players...

So what are you defining as FF values?

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Hard to define FF values, when FF values itself have been shot for the last decade.

But assuming it's FFXI values, in this case, it would be partying, adventuring, and basically the model Everquest became popular with.

Everything was about "building" a life inside the fictitious world. From the boring to the exciting, from the tough to the heartwarming.

The casual values would be something more like the FtP games or the DCUO things, where content becomes the name of the game. Log in, log out, log in, log out.

Then there is the 3rd faction which is the PvP faction, or PVE, in which you have a fight for survival. Basically "western" formula of MMOs, or what was branched off from the lineage families.

So basically to give names to each faction, you have
The everquest branch (FF style like)
The lineage branch (WoW, warhammer, etc)
The Guild wars branch (Casuals here) Though I would actually call it the Maple story branch, since that's the MMO that started this "give people anything they want as long as they pay ideal".

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Originally Posted by Argh

you are twisting the truth. the penalty created the sense of danger. players act upon this variable. it is what drives the mentality and player base. ffxi's death penalty is true in that it actually offers sandbox elements to an mmo. no one is going to help you on a suicide mission without some form of compensation. gather the proper team and go at it. this is what linkshells are for.

this kiddie themepark mentality of the community is extremely discouraging. 90% of the lost subscriber base was expecting ffxi elements. i will just leave it at that....

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How am I twisting the trust when it's exactly what happened in XI? and what kind of sandbox element XI death penalty did give? Show that death penalty can lead people to being selfish?

Don't start me with %... You're referring to that 90% of the people that left XIV left because of what? EXP lose? sense of danger? They didn't leave because they missed an half-assed time sink but because the game had no improvement between the beta and the final; slow and buggy UI, weird SP system, weird battle system, boring content, leve chores, and more. Who's twisting what already?

That kiddie theme-park community you despise is worth a lot more than the one you hang with.

edit/add:
And adding SP lose wouldn't solve anything at all. Hardcore would still not play the game because it would still suck for whatever reason, and causal would leave it because they don't want to lose time with stupid time sinks.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Hard to define FF values, when FF values itself have been shot for the last decade.

But assuming it's FFXI values, in this case, it would be partying, adventuring, and basically the model Everquest became popular with.

Everything was about "building" a life inside the fictitious world. From the boring to the exciting, from the tough to the heartwarming.

The casual values would be something more like the FtP games or the DCUO things, where content becomes the name of the game. Log in, log out, log in, log out.

Then there is the 3rd faction which is the PvP faction, or PVE, in which you have a fight for survival. Basically "western" formula of MMOs, or what was branched off from the lineage families.

So basically to give names to each faction, you have
The everquest branch (FF style like)
The lineage branch (WoW, warhammer, etc)
The Guild wars branch (Casuals here) Though I would actually call it the Maple story branch, since that's the MMO that started this "give people anything they want as long as they pay ideal".

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I would mostly agree to that. But I was more curious what Fieros' values were, as he made the claim that SE had to "sell FF values to casuals". And I think that's exactly what I'm trying to accomplish by using a more traditional system (XP penalty), but making it more lenient (compromise for Casuals).

ok so we have 3+ topic on death penalties.

Why? with as much power leveling that happen in ffxi, WoW, Aion. Why do people even want harsher penalties?

Sorry but i'm a bit shocked as well as a tad upset. I've been hated, insulted, made funb of, harassed, bullies, rumors were made about me becauise I hated power leveling. On the 4 servers I was on in ffxi everyone seems to require a PL. Or a LS mate forced it on you.

So why do ppl now want a death penalty that is a bit harsh when all that will happen in Power leveling, cuz ppl want the most exp/hr?

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

ok so we have 3+ topic on death penalties.

Why? with as much power leveling that happen in ffxi, WoW, Aion. Why do people even want harsher penalties?

Sorry but i'm a bit shocked as well as a tad upset. I've been hated, insulted, made funb of, harassed, bullies, rumors were made about me becauise I hated power leveling. On the 4 servers I was on in ffxi everyone seems to require a PL. Or a LS mate forced it on you.

So why do ppl now want a death penalty that is a bit harsh when all that will happen in Power leveling, cuz ppl want the most exp/hr?

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Because power leveling has nothing to do with it.

The point of Power leveling was to gain XP as quickly as possible. PLs were there to heal constantly so they could constantly pull IT mobs for the best XP/hour gain. It had nothing to do with death or death penalties.

You know...I just had an idea. Why not give players a small bonus from exp worthy mobs that compiles with every mob killed, when the player dies it resets back to zero. You could do this combination with gear degradation and weaknesses. Or not, whatever. I feel its more productive to reward someone for not dying. Raise would not effect the bonus reset. If you died it would always go back to zero. The exp bonus would cap at a certain percentage but at the same it wouldn't ever degrade either as long as you didnt die.

Think exp chain that stays with you, but at a much slower rate of accumulation.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

You know...I just had an idea. Why not give players a small bonus from exp worthy mobs that compiles with every mob killed, when the player dies it resets back to zero. You could do this combination with gear degradation and weaknesses. Or not, whatever. I feel its more productive to reward someone for not dying. Raise would not effect the bonus reset. If you died it would always go back to zero. The exp bonus would cap at a certain percentage but at the same it wouldn't ever degrade either as long as you didnt die.

Think exp chain that stays with you, but at a much slower rate of accumulation.

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While a valid idea when the party's goal is leveling, it does nothing to discourage death when farming for items or completing boss/mission content. When your goal isn't SP, then the "loss of bonus" becomes meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

While a valid idea when the party's goal is leveling, it does nothing to discourage death when farming for items or completing boss/mission content. When your goal isn't SP, then the "loss of bonus" becomes meaningless.

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That's why its a good idea, it doesn't discourage a random helpful person from wanting to help with a mission so they enjoy a boss fight. It also doesn't discourage a group of friends from trying to take on a tough NM. It does discourage people who are "hardcore" from dying because they want to level all that more quickly.

Besides, rewarding someone for satying alive is way better than punishing someone for dying.

Edit: it also makes casuals not want to die either it might even mean more to them because a bonus like that would be extremely useful with limited playing time, I didn't mean to insult hardcore gamers lol.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

That's why its a good idea, it doesn't discourage a random helpful person from wanting to help with a mission so they enjoy a boss fight. It also doesn't discourage a group of friends from trying to take on a tough NM. It does discourage people who are "hardcore" from dying because they want to level all that more quickly.

Besides, rewarding someone for satying alive is way better than punishing someone for dying.

Edit: it also makes casuals not want to die either it might even mean more to them because a bonus like that would be extremely useful with limited playing time, I didn't mean to insult hardcore gamers lol.

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You're missing the point. Your idea only works when the goal is leveling. People aren't always playing to level. Sometimes they are playing to farm items, they are playing to kill NMs for gear, they are playing to beat Missions (not implemented yet, but will be). And once people hit cap, then your idea becomes pointless.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You're missing the point. Your idea only works when the goal is leveling. People aren't always playing to level. Sometimes they are playing to farm items, they are playing to kill NMs for gear, they are playing to beat Missions (not implemented yet, but will be). And once people hit cap, then your idea becomes pointless.

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No man, you're missing the point. Missions, NM's, items...they're the content nobody should be afraid to do, That is what makes the game fun.

You put in a bonus that somebody has worked a month to achieve for leveling chances are...they want to keep it. Or maybe standing around jueno for a month trying to get CoP missions done wasn't a big deal to you, but it was a big deal to a lot of people. I always wanted to do the arch angel mission for zilart but couldn't find that many people to just pick up and go.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Because power leveling has nothing to do with it.

The point of Power leveling was to gain XP as quickly as possible. PLs were there to heal constantly so they could constantly pull IT mobs for the best XP/hour gain. It had nothing to do with death or death penalties.

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I think she means professional power leveling services which usually pop up in games where the grind is too harsh, or organized power leveling runs where a player basically does it for ingame currency, a death penalty that reduces your xp gained would be directly involved in this because it puts an extra edge on the grind.






lets look at it like this


If we give an SP penalty, are you ever going to tolerate when somebody else made a mistake?

because if not, soloing is going to be the next big thing.

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Originally Posted by Argh

90% of the lost subscriber base was expecting ffxi elements. i will just leave it at that....

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I have an idea. Why don't we clone Argh 600,000 times and he and his clone army can pay FFXIV's subscriber fees so SE can afford to make us a good game that has nothing to do with FFXI's obsolete game mechanics.

Kaedan, I think we see eye to eye on other things, but law enforcement is probably not the place to go for progressive debate about psychology. B.F. Skinner (who coined positive reinforcement) said the main thing people learn from punishment is how to avoid being punished. As usual, the term is hard to properly put into action. Positive reinforcement would be some kind of bonus to staying alive in multiple battles in a row. That is real positive reinforcement. Like, a buff that increased your damage or healing and stacked up for every five battles you won in a row.

I was gonna say I hope they don't listen to any ideas in this thread about penalties but I wouldn't mind some form of positive reinforcement.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

No man, you're missing the point. Missions, NM's, items...they're the content nobody should be afraid to do, That is what makes the game fun.

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What is the point of playing a game that has no consequences?

I guess Baseball, Football, Soccer, Basketball... these games are stupid because they have consequences to failure. It can't possibly be fun to play the game, since they're punished when they lose. I know, let's just make it so that every team gets to put tickets in a hat to enter the Superbowl, World Cup, etc. Then every time you win, you get to put another ticket in. Then at the end of the season, they draw two tickets at random for which teams are in it.

Afterall, we can't allow for anything that might discourage the teams, like losing. Gotta use Positive reinforcement, baby! This way, everyone has a chance!

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

What is the point of playing a game that has no consequences?

I guess Baseball, Football, Soccer, Basketball... these games are stupid because they have consequences to failure. It can't possibly be fun to play the game, since they're punished when they lose. I know, let's just make it so that every team gets to put tickets in a hat to enter the Superbowl, World Cup, etc. Then every time you win, you get to put another ticket in. Then at the end of the season, they draw two tickets at random for which teams are in it.

Afterall, we can't allow for anything that might discourage the teams, like losing. Gotta use Positive reinforcement, baby! This way, everyone has a chance!

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How are they punished when they lose? The championship series are positive reinforcement for winning.

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Originally Posted by trinta

How are they punished when they lose? The championship series are positive reinforcement for winning.

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Hmm... let's see. They can lose their jobs, they can get salary reductions... I'd say loss of one's livelihood is quite a punishment.

Its amazing that people are actually WANTING sp loss because this game 'needs' a consequence? If I to recall how many hrs spent on senseless buffer grinding because of preparation or aftermath of AV I'd rather shoot myself rofl. Maybe I don't have a high masochistic personality as some of you other people >.< but wanting SP loss seems retarded on so many levels.
*main reason I say this is from the already overwhelming posts / cries / threads / opinions that all this game is atm is a grind fest.. so seeing some advocating the creation of yet another reason to grind confuses me :(*

I'm not saying we shouldn't have consequences(just not sp loss) but I'm not all gun-ho for it either.

I also can't understand why people are getting this worked up about something I can consider to be good. EXP Loss at Death in FFXI was a giant pain in the butt. Just getting your buffer up again after a Dynamis or two was horrible and just a waste of time.

I understand that people do not want people zombie'ing down mobs but harsh death penalties are not the way to go. It's just an extra time sink that I do not really approve of. :/

I find it a bit silly that so much attention is being given to these "minor" issues when the devs have way more important stuff they should be working on, like actual content. Bug fixes and balancing is fine and all, but after 6 months of the game being out some of us would like some more content please. :3

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Hey all,

Hvinire here with an update from Yoshida on this very topic. Sorry for the delay in responding but please check out the comment that Yoshi-P himself made regarding the community concerns over the current death penalty in Eorzea.



There you have it, now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

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There you have it ^%^. No plans on SP/EXP loss, but equipment damage if you fail to get raised. simple and clean.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Hmm... let's see. They can lose their jobs, they can get salary reductions... I'd say loss of one's livelihood is quite a punishment.

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huh?? is such competition exist?? what kind of competition you talking??

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

1 Anima = 4 hours. You can get a LOT of SP in 4 hours.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

No, they won't.

1 Anima = 4 hours. You can gain a lot of SP in 4 hours.

You are making the false assumption that everyone will always buy it back. It's still a choice.

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I'm not sure why you're making 1 anima the equivalent of 4 hours' worth of SP grinding. It's totally not the same at all. A chunk of SP is waaaay more valuable than 1 anima since SP represents actual effort put into the game, whereas anima doesn't mean anything since it regenerates automatically without any effort.

If you had a choice of either A. Losing 40000 SP, or B. losing 1 anima (which in your view could be considered equivalent, given a 10k/hour grind rate), no one in their right mind would choose the SP loss over the anima loss.

SP is so much more valuable than anima that it's hardly equivalent. Why would anyone choose to loose their invested time and effort over anima, which regens automatically? Everyone would always choose to loose gil or anima instead of SP (probably gil, since gil is even more worthless than anima). Again, if everyone is always going to choose the same way, it's effectively the same as not giving them a choice in the first place and doesn't help to change anything.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Exactly. Your system is actually HARSHER than my system. At least with a SP loss/buyback system, you can choose between losing SP and losing Anima.

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No it's not. Let's compare my system to the two "choices" of your system.

Scenario A: player dies
my system- loses anima
your system - loses SP and buys it back with anima

Both systems have equivalent harshness.


Scenario B: player dies
my system- loses anima
your system - loses SP and decides not to buy it back.

Your system is harsher than mine in Scenario B because losing SP is a harsher penalty than losing anima, since SP is a direct representation of a quantity of effort and time put into the game.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

-When someone's Anima drops to 0, we are back in the same boat we're in now.

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What boat? The casuals are fine with the current system. It's only the hardcore players who want more challenge. If anima drops to 0, casual players don't care. As for hardcore players, they're skillfull enough not to have 0 anima all the time. That's also why I implemented the bonuses as a performance and visual impact booster to give the hardcore players a reward for being good, and to give them a better reason not to die.

I was going to make a huge post about games i've played in the past but when i went back to look i've found a lot of them have a softened version of the death penalty they had at launch.

No death penalty is necessary. Regaining buffers is poor gameplay for angry elitists who can't stand to see others having fun without jumping through their brand of hoops. Argument that they add incentive not to die is a bunch of bologne, because no one dies on purpose in this game while they're trying to fight and never will because.... The current system is perfect. At death 1 you're semi-functional. At death 2 you're nearly worthless. At death 3 your abilities are locked, because you obviously are trying to zombie rush something and that stops you dead.

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While a valid idea when the party's goal is leveling, it does nothing to discourage death when farming for items or completing boss/mission content. When your goal isn't SP, then the "loss of bonus" becomes meaningless.

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I am neither for or against his idea but people have addressed this in the last pages.

There's a worse penalty than losing experience points when doing missions or events: it's called failing the event. It's what happens when you lose too many times and your group either gets tired or runs out of time, or when the event is actually timed and you run out of time to keep on trying.

The penalty is not getting that cutscene, not getting deeper into the dungeon, nor getting items. Whatever your motivation was for doing the event in the first place is not accomplished.

Nobody cares about EXP loss during events/missions, especially since there are usually people who have Raise spells. In FFXI there were events where you had to sacrifice people in order to win (kite adds or suicide pulls) and it was done without hesitation. What's your answer to that? Perhaps they cared about something else beyond avoiding the death penalty? Perhaps losing the event was indeed worse than losing exp?

Do you honestly think that the reason people didn't try some events in FFXI was because they would lose some exp upon death? No, it was usually because most hard fights required some pre-reqs that couldn't be reobtained overnight, or because you could only do them a few times per week, or because the events were annoying enough to end up in failure without the right people (which translates into a waste of time, which is also a penalty).

A harsh death penalty is also not enough to make death matter during an encounter. Even with a death penalty, people were raised mid-battle in XI. Even with a death penalty, you saw zombie attacks. Don't you realize exp loss failed as a death deterrent in endgame events in FFXI? In XIV, do you really think linkshells wouldn't make people Return midfight if they died and their contribution for rejoining the fight could net them the win? (even with an exp penalty).

What you need to do is to make death matter by limiting how much you can recover during an encounter. What Yoshida suggested works for this, with some slight adjustments to Raise and encounter mechanics.