Feedback Regarding the Relic Upgrade Quest

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

... Those who played 1.x mostly are complaining now because they already experienced bad RNG grinding content...
... Those who play since 2013 mostly defend the system because they dont know it better...
Time consuming? Seriously, you should have played 1.x, there is a reason why we are complaining! We will not have that old system back! You wonder why 1.x failed? go ask one who played 1.x ...

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This. All of this!!

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

... Those who played 1.x mostly are complaining now because they already experienced bad RNG grinding content...
... Those who play since 2013 mostly defend the system because they dont know it better...
Time consuming? Seriously, you should have played 1.x, there is a reason why we are complaining! We will not have that old system back! You wonder why 1.x failed? go ask one who played 1.x ...

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I wouldn't say 1.0 failed cause of the relic quest lol.
but most people will complain against anything that's considered grinding.
Though I haven't seen any end game content time come anywhere close to What White knight Chronicles was so I guess this is considered easy XD

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Originally Posted by Sephriem

I wouldn't say 1.0 failed cause of the relic quest lol.
but most people will complain against anything that's considered grinding.

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Mindless Grinding on top of that, it not difficult, we cant get xp because we need to do it on a lvl 50 char, the gil is not worth it and i have so much of the seals that im buying wepons for 7k to sell them for 1k gil.....
i mean seriously, we get nothing out of it, its easy its jsut takes large amount of time, if they wanted to make it a long task they could made it that you only can get one a day or two a week.
or some difficult task, or something were you at least see some progression, yesterday i farmed for seven hours without a drop.
this morning before the server down i farmed not even one for two, thats ridiclious, at the moment i guess thats there something like X atma per hour on that part, for ALL players, at least that would explain these
times.....

It would even be better if you got an item you need to charge with fates, make it a 50 fates for each.
you would still need a large amount of time but you would see a progression, something that ou get closer to your goal......

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Originally Posted by Sephriem

1.0 Relic was the same and great that you had to try so hard, felt so much better to be one of the limited few to pass and gain it, instead of mass amounts of people all at once.

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The only thing similar to 1.0 relic to this was melding. 17% chance to append that second tier IV materia, 22% if you managed to HQ the weapon. And guess what was universally reviled and changed come 2.0? The atrocious melding odds. I was one of the lucky ones, my NQ Mailbreaker double synthed those expensive at the time dual Heaven's Eye IVs first try, I got a free pass. Didn't feel good or anything like an accomplishment however, since it was entirely out of my hands and up to an algorithm that gave me the green light. A friend of mine wasn't so lucky, I think about 6 Sarngas exploded, 12 Heaven's Eyes gone too.

It is not skill to get lucky. I find $100 on the ground, it is not because I am an amazing human being, or worked hard to find this money, I'm just some chode that was at the right place at the right time.

Beyond that, 1.0 relic quest was great. I wish 2.0 got the memo, the FNMs, killing the primals quickly without deaths, all that requires legitimate skill. I wish the Atma quest as we currently know it was like that, rather than people staring at the ground, trying to find that $100.

Where did you get that 300 myth for main story from. That was the old situation for phylo. They nerfed that bonus.

I don't always like to 'see' progression as it's quite repetitive to just have counters all the time, which is why I find that this seems a good idea, as the idea I believe is to test those will to continue.
JoshiP did state that it wasn't going to be easy for anyone, nor that everyone would complete it (just like coil for most before 2.0)

regarding gil, there's not one thing to do in the game that benefits time/gil/xp/items all in one go, that would be considered a game braking issue.
the balance of gil is also a player issue that SE have to monitor and try to keep afloat, sad to say, but players destroyed that fact not the game.

there's always a bright side though, server maint could be to state that there was a bug with the drop rate :).

I wasn't talking of the specific mechanics. just the fact that it was made in a way that you actually had to try and persevere.

at the end of the day you could find $100 on the floor and leave it for the next person, you could pick it up and spend it or you could find none at all.

that's just life in a sense, a game that you have to try different methods or approaches that, have chances rather than 'Do X amount of' is just a different strategy/way of completing something.

in a time sense, if you count up hours to how long it took the average person to get relic in 1.0 to zodiac in 115 in 2.2 there should be an increase in time say 4 weeks (which 4 weeks was also the amount of time it took players to complete turn 1-/ 2 of coil)

for the most part, I think it is because players technically fail, they don't progress so it eats at their fight to continue.

I don't see the problem with coming back to it and taking the challenge again, especially so early on

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

... Those who played 1.x mostly are complaining now because they already experienced bad RNG grinding content...
... Those who play since 2013 mostly defend the system because they dont know it better...
Time consuming? Seriously, you should have played 1.x, there is a reason why we are complaining! We will not have that old system back! You wonder why 1.x failed? go ask one who played 1.x ...

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Man that's part of the game... The man (Yoshi P) already gave you primals with insta-drops, everytime you fight him he drops something. The thrill of the hunt has always been some mob you camp over and over that randomly has a percentage of dropping something and you finally get it, through persistence, patience, and determination. This is a MMO its suppose to be hard... brutal... unforgiving as Bear Grylls would say. I know people are quick to say well that's old FFXI stuff, like camping Leaping Lizy, but sometimes people say this game needs to be more like the old great, and when it introduces something a little unforgiving you want to alter it like you were the President of the company. Not just you, a lot of you guys.

Back in the day Producers created games, visions, and you were in the position to experience and play that game. Now the man has things 2 years down the road planned, and you want to shit on the mans patch that's leading to the beef of the first expansion and jobs that are already thought out, and you crying about some atma that drops in the forest trying to bring up ruckus to make this man change the game to better suit your likes, and the likes of a loud few? I'm sorry man but the man put some ,sorry to quote this again, "unforgiving" thing in the game that's not certain, and it happens to be a lateral option to take with promise of future upgrades to come? This is great to me. I see no reason he can't keep this in the game, and later make a dungeon path, or specific dungeon trials specially for an altered way of taking the relic to strengthen its power, or maybe mythic and empy weapons. All of that can work. And have even more lateral movement.

I can only hope Yoshi-P doesn't bend over, and start changing the game up, and scratching 10 ideas off the future because of the reaction of a few guys that are tripping hard over a little unlucky situation... Took me 4 hours to get my first Atma, but boy was I happy when I saw it, and I know you were too when you saw that flash on the screen, don't say you weren't! LOL

We just need to chill out guys, slow down, and enjoy the game. No... I mean really enjoy it. Stay off these threads it can be cancerous in here sometimes... Most of the times...

in all honesty snide remarks gone, I belive 100 fates = you earned atma. Do this for each of the zones; maybe 50 for coerthas, 25 for northern than. and 10 for mor dhona. Throw in say a device that gathers the soul's needed to empower your weapon even if its not equipped so you could do this on low level classes, the only other stipulation being your only allowed one relic +1 in your armory and each time its removed from your armory to a retainer or armoire it looses 5% of the soul binding. Now that is a challenge and time sink with showing people their progression at a steady pace, not making it too easy of a grind and an understandable consequence to add to the difficulty.

This seems to be the problem - Inconsistency. While the original relic reborn was practically given to us almost as a rite of passage, the zodiac appears to be now a simpler path for those who are intimidated by the newest/hardest content. This shift in meaning for the weapon has left some hardcores feeling like they have to do it before they can get to the good stuff, while casuals and hardcores alike feel like it's painstakingly tedious and random to do at all because it was so easy before.

For someone like me, who won't be gunning it too hard for endgame, this type of thing works for me. It's stress free, and I can make progress while waiting for other things. It sucks that the numbers are random, doing all fates in the required zone would be much better imo... but I can queue up for any highlevel content while trying my fates for atma. I'll manage, personally. Excruciatingly long progression would be better though. All this hoping for a key-item does nothin' for me.

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Originally Posted by Valthein

in all honesty snide remarks gone, I belive 100 fates = you earned atma. Do this for each of the zones; maybe 50 for coerthas, 25 for northern than. and 10 for mor dhona. Throw in say a device that gathers the soul's needed to empower your weapon even if its not equipped so you could do this on low level classes, the only other stipulation being your only allowed one relic +1 in your armory and each time its removed from your armory to a retainer or armoire it looses 5% of the soul binding. Now that is a challenge and time sink with showing people their progression at a steady pace, not making it too easy of a grind and an understandable consequence to add to the difficulty.

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This. Just copy the unlockable WS quests from XI.

Gold = 5 points
Silver = 3
Bronze = 1

Gain 250 total points in a zone and you get that zone's Atma. Maybe 200 or 150 for Coerthas, North Thanalan, Mor Dhona. Slap this idea into the challenge log and bam, you have a perfect time sink without randomness.

A secondary advantage to doing it this way would be that it would take at least 9 weeks to Atma all 9 relics, and by that time we should have 2.25.

I'm fine with the way it is. Just don't make it random drops but like a number of points to work towards. Randomizing something like this is just bad design.

For the future I'd like to see stuff like this just tied to some strong open world monsters for once.

Heaven knows we're DONE with all these fate spam fests.

FATES for the ultimate weapon of this patch? low level FATES? lol
When will they understand FATES suck? meh

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

This. Just copy the unlockable WS quests from XI.

Gold = 5 points
Silver = 3
Bronze = 1

Gain 250 total points in a zone and you get that zone's Atma. Maybe 200 or 150 for Coerthas, North Thanalan, Mor Dhona. Slap this idea into the challenge log and bam, you have a perfect time sink without randomness.

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This describes my worst concern about the whole Zodiac thing. RNG. Most of us can sustain the grind but only if you see the progress. Here you don't and the whole RNG thing just makes you go mad. Some people get it on 2nd FATE and some spend 6+ hours to get it.

So after no Atma drops in the first day I have not been phased. Time for day two of farming. I am looking forward to it.

I really wish the community had some say in the matter before this was implemented...

I don't understand how 'challenge' can be thought about as something like this. Mind-numbingly boring grinding of low level fates to get a drop is not challenging; or wait, maybe it is: I have to overcome my boredom and every single instinct that /shouts at me that this retardedly tedious activity is not worth it.

Therein lies the 'difficulty' of this 'challenge': not blowing your brains out.

Think I'll go in my backyard and count grains of sand! Think of how rewarding it'll be to find all those rusted nails, brick chips and all the crap they left after the house was built! Oh, the stories I'll be able to tell!

You can add a quest to NPC in the respectful zone to obtain ATMA. That could be like complete 20 (30...) FATEs in the zone.
Just please get rid of the RNG.

There is a certain option to normalize RNG - make it that you need 5 pieces of ATMA but increase drop probability 5 times.

I find that grinding FATEs is something compulsive.
I honestly don't enjoy doing this terrible quest. Ok, you want to make it harder, but make it at least enjoyable.
In 8 hours I dropped 2 atmas. Honestly there is no sense in wasting time doing FATEs.
LOL people are kinda desperate. Today a person told me "yesterday for 12hours I haven't dropped anything". Are we serious?
They could at least improve the drop rate.
I think I'll give up for now. I play Final Fantasy XIV for fun, not to satisfy my compulsive needs lol.

Not sure why people complain about RNG in a RPG. To me, that is sort of like complaining that you need tactics in a strategy game.

I can agree with FATE being boring though. At least if it was NM like XI, then you had the adrenaline rush and endorphin kick if it dropped. But doubt that NM system could work for this sense this is an item for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Nanaya

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Absolutely, couldn't agree more. Half the feedback thread is just people coming in to complain about other people and their "complaints". No wonder there is no cohesion in a community setting like this.

3h grinding 0 atmas....others get atma in 10 mins....unfair.

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Originally Posted by Nanaya

The only thing similar to 1.0 relic to this was melding. 17% chance to append that second tier IV materia, 22% if you managed to HQ the weapon. And guess what was universally reviled and changed come 2.0? The atrocious melding odds. I was one of the lucky ones, my NQ Mailbreaker double synthed those expensive at the time dual Heaven's Eye IVs first try, I got a free pass. Didn't feel good or anything like an accomplishment however, since it was entirely out of my hands and up to an algorithm that gave me the green light. A friend of mine wasn't so lucky, I think about 6 Sarngas exploded, 12 Heaven's Eyes gone too.

It is not skill to get lucky. I find $100 on the ground, it is not because I am an amazing human being, or worked hard to find this money, I'm just some chode that was at the right place at the right time.

Beyond that, 1.0 relic quest was great. I wish 2.0 got the memo, the FNMs, killing the primals quickly without deaths, all that requires legitimate skill. I wish the Atma quest as we currently know it was like that, rather than people staring at the ground, trying to find that $100.

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SE should just make it so you travel to a location and get to press a button once every 10 minutes with a 10% chance of getting a drop.. that would be as much fun as grinding more fates... maybe throw in a 10% chance of death or total gear destruction /sarcasm off

The most disappointing thing about this part of the new content.. is that its not new at all

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty happy about the new dungeons, glamours, etc and like this game.. but more fates ...come on!!!!

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

3h grinding 0 atmas....others get atma in 10 mins....unfair.

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Farmed yesterday for 8 hours, 0 drops, this morning before the server down, one hour for 2, now again 4 hours now drop, long way to go budyy... :(

This is very similar to FFXI's coffer key's guys except we are not grinding a specific mob - we are grinding a fate. Fates also increase our company points to use buffs. My company is starved for points since we go through buffs. Be glad your not having to cast a lot on the atma, be glad your not having to compete for a coffer after wards.

You guys that want more FFXI brought into this game..well here is a small sample of it but catered for a non competitive atmosphere. I see nothing wrong with this quest line currently. You put the time in and you will eventually get it.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Not sure why people complain about RNG in a RPG.

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From what I'm reading it's not so much that people have a problem with RNG in general (although some loathe the FATE route) it's more to do with the fact the rate of the RNG is so awful. Most people accept RNG has some place in an MMO, however, many people don't want to see a return to FFXI-level 0.5% RNG rates.

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Originally Posted by Pinworms

You guys that want more FFXI brought into this game..well here is a small sample of it but catered for a non competitive atmosphere. I see nothing wrong with this quest line currently. You put the time in and you will eventually get it.

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I would've rather seen more of a challenge to get Atmas such as completing (or adding in) timed objectives in hard mode dungeons, completeing all primal EXs in a certain amount of time, etc. As I've said before, I'd even settle on a bland defeat X number of Y mobs. At least that is fair, bland grind for everyone. I wouldn't have much fun with that grind, but at least I would know when I'm done rather than hope and pray the RNG gods favor me.

Unlike Katniss, the odds are never in my favor.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

From what I'm reading it's not so much that people have a problem with RNG in general (although some loathe the FATE route) it's more to do with the fact the rate of the RNG is so awful. Most people accept RNG has some place in an MMO, however, many people don't want to see a return to FFXI-level 0.5% RNG rates.

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Does anyone actually know the drop rate? It could just be that some are really unlucky. And I know people like to exaggerate, but 0.5%? Even D.Ring from KB was 5%.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Does anyone actually know the drop rate? It could just be that some are really unlucky. And I know people like to exaggerate, but 0.5%? Even D.Ring from KB was 5%.

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From what I've heard, 3% solo, with 0.5% being added for each party member.

I can't confirm the validity of this statement, however.

this game is broken. see you guys in 3.0 a realm re-reborn.

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Originally Posted by melisande

this game is broken. see you guys in 3.0 a realm re-reborn.

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Works fine to me, See you in 3.0 Ishgard arises!

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Originally Posted by Pinworms

You put the time in and you will eventually get it.

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Let's look briefly at the new weapons, because I think people are looking at iLVL and nothing else

Atma: Low risk, low reward - the weapons have the exact same stats as your Zenith, but 10 ilvls higher. They are also not difficult to obtain
Animus: Low risk, medium reward - You have to collect mythology (easy, but a lot) and complete some tasks.
Weathered Masterworks: Medium risk, medium reward - slightly better than Animus in most cases, but requires soldiery and Allagan Tomestone
Masterworks: ??? risk, high reward - Very powerful weapons, but so far no confirmation of where you get the Oil of Time
Leviathan: High Risk, High Reward - On par with Masterworks, some randomness involved with drop rate, but a difficult fight
T5 weapons: High Risk, Medium reward - Still better than Atma/Animus, but only slightly. About on par with non-Tidal Leviathan weapons
T9 weapons: High Risk, High Reward - Best weapons

Take a step back and look at your options. Decide where you stand as a player (Do you think you can beat Leviathan EX? T5? T9?, Do you have the time to work on the other weapons?, etc). Weigh your options. Do not mindlessly chase after FATEs if you think you can do better. Focus on other things. Just because they are 10 ilvls higher does not mean they are better. They lead into better weapons, yes, but I think the best approach is to take it as not becoming the best weapons in the game. So far, what I've done is as I'm doing other quests/waiting for queue, I will participate in FATEs as I pass by and leave it at that. I don't feel pressured this way, and my time isn't really being used up all that much. Remember, you have options.

EDIT: From another thread:

RE-EDIT: Nvm, wasn't confirmed.

I vowed to never complain on the forums, but here we go.

I am usually a very patient person. Heck, when I was on Leviathan before 2.1 I grinded fates all day to level my second class. My main issue is the drop rate. I did this for hours without a single drop. Another FC mate did it for the entire day without a single drop.

What I may be okay with is if we could do a lower level class and still get the drops. this way, I can level and do something semi-productive while farming these fates for the drops. Instead, you have a bunch of glowy level 50s going crazy and cringing each time they level sync down to 7 and not get anything but 20 gil and more frustration.

Or.. raise the drop rate like they raised the spawn rate for CT fates. I am glad that it is semi challenging, but almost impossible isn't very much fun.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

Options.

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They're not gonna listen so don't bother. They don't care about options all they wanna do is flame.

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

They're not gonna listen so don't bother. They don't care about options all they wanna do is flame.

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The only point I'm really trying to make is to people who are upset about this quest. If you feel like you don't have time/skill for a certain weapon, you have the choice to pick another to strive toward. It's about balance, and I feel this quest fits perfectly into the balance they were trying to achieve. NA players took it a different direction and saw it as, "These are the new relics, therefore the best weapons, therefore, I need to do this now, oh this is taking awhile, I'm mad." Seriously, just take a step back and look at your choices before jumping to conclusions.

On the bright side, at least the REALM was reborned once; it can happen again!

Also, .01% is too casual.. should be -.01% to make it a real challenge.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

The only point I'm really trying to make is to people who are upset about this quest. If you feel like you don't have time/skill for a certain weapon, you have the choice to pick another to strive toward. It's about balance, and I feel this quest fits perfectly into the balance they were trying to achieve. NA players took it a different direction and saw it as, "These are the new relics, therefore the best weapons, therefore, I need to do this now, oh this is taking awhile, I'm mad." Seriously, just take a step back and look at your choices before jumping to conclusions.

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I get and agree with that, but people aren't listening I've also been saying the same in this thread but it falls on deaf ears. Which leads me to feel that maybe people just want everything no matter the circumstance of whether they need it or not.

Maybe players just like to do other stuff too and not only one single content farming...
Can you really do other things? Sure, yea, leave the area and miss the F.A.T.E. because you do not need that one specific F.A.T.E. ... *lol*

After Chocobo leveling with F.A.T.E.S. players can not see them any more!
Those who done so can tell you many stories about "single content farming"...

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Does anyone actually know the drop rate? It could just be that some are really unlucky. And I know people like to exaggerate, but 0.5%? Even D.Ring from KB was 5%.

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Does it matter? If the drop rate is say, 5% (doesn't really matter what it is for the sake of this example), then they could have just made it to require the approximate expected value in completed FATEs for completion instead. That way you still throttle how fast people get it done (and you don't have random people 'winning the lottery' and completing it super fast OR people getting unlucky and never progressing) and it's still a 'grind' that people can opt whether they want to put in the time for.

Random number generation serves a variety of game design goals. In a lot of cases it's a gating/throttling mechanic who's rationale is little more than 'we couldn't come up with anything better'.