Alliance Raid Now iLvl Locked, Why??

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I'm sure I've said this before, but I guess for me, I see roulettes as a "I'm willing to do whatever content people are currently trying to do". You're choosing to help someone that wants to complete the raid and being rewarded for it.

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We need to remember that FF14 is a game. At the end of the day, the only reason to engage with the game at all is entertainment. The roulettes, no matter their practical purpose in game, need to be fun. The developers may not be able to please everyone of course, but making something enjoyable and functional doesn't have to be a tradeoff. The roulettes are designed to fill queues, no one is saying otherwise, but that fact doesn't really change anything about this topic.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Most people asking for a MSQ check want it in addition to ilvl don't they? So there would be no cheesing involved.

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Someone who has completed the story and at level 90 who is in ARR tome gear is "ilvl cheesing". Someone who is still in ARR, but has a level 90 character in ARR tome gear is effectively doing the same thing. I understand the "free" means of gearing isn't available to them, but both characters are effectively the same.

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I'm not forgetting this. We don't know who exactly is being excluded from the roulette and how many raids they would qualify for (outside of CT obviously). So it's possible that everyone excluded qualifies for high level raids and so because of their exclusion, the instances of CT go up.

That is not very likely to be true, but I'm not trying to say that is what we're experiencing. I just want to point out the boundaries of what is possible.

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Well we do know for a fact that people qualifying for 90 ARs when queueing would not be in this group since they would have to be proper ilvl to have unlocked those raids. That alone quantifies an increase in non-CT raids as the Twelve series is not impacted unlike CT. I do agree however that 60s, 70s, and 80s impacts are unknown.

Speaking as a player in ARR patch content who likes to explore a lot, prefers (and often needs) to take my time with MSQ *and* is severely over-leveled on my main jobs, I don't know what anybody's talking about with "poetics are useless." I use them to buy Augmented Ironworks stuff and turn *that* into seals at the Grand Company.

Those can then buy venture tokens, or any other number of useful or fun items!

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

I transfered to Dynamis - Seraph for my main to get my house. I usually have to go back to Aether dc just to do my dailies and pvp because there's a longer wait time compared to back on Aether. Come back on the weekends to check inside my house for retainers and snapshot my character in the house via server and fc chatting. Kinda hope we get cross dc servers duty finder so I dont have to keep doing that lol

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I don't get a ton of time with my alt since I'm busy on my main. But with her I've been taking my time and enjoying the MSQ again and especially the changes for Duty Support. I have a rule that I try very hard to stick to that I queue her only on Dynamis because I want to help the queues there. Only exceptions have been the moogle tomes and one Alexander I could not get to pop. I think trying to get Niddy for MSQ there took like 2 hours. And I would do roulettes when I just didn't want to do MSQ that day. So it's a shame to be locked out of one I could help keep alive otherwise.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

Also has anyone arguing for "MSQ progression" realized that being way undergeared for your level is indirectly ilvl cheesing?

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If you take it with that definition then on a technical level that is a correct statement. But the thing that's being left out is intent. Those who were participating in ilevel cheesing had access to higher level gear and even had it on their character and deliberately swapped it out to manipulate the roulette. They didn't proceed with the raid with that gear either. They swapped it out for higher level gear.

With someone that doesn't have access to game-provided gear for the level that they're currently at, there is no intention to manipulate the roulette. They are queueing in with the intention to participate in the gear they're using in whatever raid they are placed into. They're using the highest level gear available from the game. Just the same as anyone else who queues.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

If you take it with that definition then on a technical level that is a correct statement. But the thing that's being left out is intent. Those who were participating in ilevel cheesing had access to higher level gear and even had it on their character and deliberately swapped it out to manipulate the roulette. They didn't proceed with the raid with that gear either. They swapped it out for higher level gear.

With someone that doesn't have access to game-provided gear for the level that they're currently at, there is no intention to manipulate the roulette. They are queueing in with the intention to participate in the gear they're using in whatever raid they are placed into. They're using the highest level gear available from the game. Just the same as anyone else who queues.

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These players do have access to higher-level gear that is provided by the game :). The game provides them with the market board. The intention here is rather not to manipulate the raid, but instead overlevel classes well past your MSQ, undergear them, and still queue into roulette content with them. Maybe its the "kick in the pants" some of these players needed :)

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

Someone who has completed the story and at level 90 who is in ARR tome gear is "ilvl cheesing". Someone who is still in ARR, but has a level 90 character in ARR tome gear is effectively doing the same thing. I understand the "free" means of gearing isn't available to them, but both characters are effectively the same.

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This is kind of beside the point. Even if they go get the gear, they can't unlock the later raids because of their MSQ progress. So the gear makes absolutely no difference in terms of what raids they qualify for in the roulette, it's just gil being spent for no particular reason. If I were in that situation, I'd resent being told to go spend gil needlessly in order to do something that I could do before with no problem.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

These players do have access to higher-level gear that is provided by the game :). The game provides them with the market board. The intention here is rather not to manipulate the raid, but instead overlevel classes well past your MSQ, undergear them, and still queue into roulette content with them. Maybe its the "kick in the pants" some of these players needed :)

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I think you should probably go play on a Dynamis server starting from scratch and see just how massive the Road to 80 buff is. It can't be turned off and it encourages someone to level all the classes because of how easy it makes getting them to 80. And the best way to do that is with roulettes. Someone with one class is definitely going to overlevel the MSQ but so will someone with multiple classes. That's how huge the experience gain is. Nobody on a Road to 80 server is putting effort into overleveling. It's just something that is going to happen there.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I think you should probably go play on a Dynamis server starting from scratch and see just how massive the Road to 80 buff is. It can't be turned off and it encourages someone to level all the classes because of how easy it makes getting them to 80. And the best way to do that is with roulettes. Someone with one class is definitely going to overlevel the MSQ but so will someone with multiple classes. That's how huge the experience gain is. Nobody on a Road to 80 server is putting effort into overleveling. It's just something that is going to happen there.

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And losing access to the roulette (unless you decide to properly gear yourself) will help mitigate that :). Thanks for adding in that point!

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Originally Posted by Brynne

This is kind of beside the point. Even if they go get the gear, they can't unlock the later raids because of their MSQ progress. So the gear makes absolutely no difference in terms of what raids they qualify for in the roulette, it's just gil being spent for no particular reason. If I were in that situation, I'd resent being told to go spend gil needlessly in order to do something that I could do before with no problem.

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People could also ilvl cheese before the patch with no problem too. Changes happen, and now the game is requiring them to properly gear their character.

I haven't read all the replies for a few days but I will say this. Our FC used to do the Alliance Roulette every day with the lower level people who are new to the game. In fact that is why I came here to comment the first week of the change. We did it to be social, because the raids are fun, and because we could queue as a large group. We don't do that anymore. We help them out with dungeons or trials as they come to them but the large social fun alliance raids are abandoned by us. Why? Because the hassle isn't worth it.

The reward was a fun social experience. The goal was fun. We are in different time zones, have different meal times, outside responsibilities and so forth. Before we could just queue up because of the tanks and healers in our FC and run the alliance raid right away. Now its, wait, who can't go in? What is your lowest ilvl accessory, hmmm.. how can we fix that? They are saying, oh no, don't worry, I'll drop group, you guys go ahead. So we either leave some people out, the very people we are wanting to be social with, or spend time trying to get everyone ready. Rinse, repeat, because if they play a variety of things the jobs will level higher than the msq, repeatedly. If they have fixed this problem already, I wouldn't know, because we stopped doing that duty as a mixed level group.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

People could also ilvl cheese before the patch with no problem too. Changes happen, and now the game is requiring them to properly gear their character.

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... You missed my point. Regardless of whether or not they are geared, they can't unlock the higher level raids. So the gear makes no difference in terms of what comes up in the roulette for them. Why should they have to gear for raids they won't be getting?

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Originally Posted by Brynne

... You missed my point. Regardless of whether or not they are geared, they can't unlock the higher level raids. So the gear makes no difference in terms of what comes up in the roulette for them. Why should they have to gear for raids they won't be getting?

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Because they are too high level? I didn't miss your point at all. I just simply don't agree with your point :).

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

And losing access to the roulette (unless you decide to properly gear yourself) will help mitigate that :). Thanks for adding in that point!

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You forget that someone wanting to be there helping them stay alive on a small DC means those roulettes are going to take even longer than they already do. Pushing more people away from the DC to just go queue on other DCs. If SE can implement the additional qualifier that keeps someone's maximum access level in mind, the entire problem would be solved on servers with these massive experience buffs.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

Because they are too high level? I didn't miss your point at all. I just simply don't agree with your point :).

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OK, so they're geared. Now what? They can queue for the same raids they already had unlocked. If they only had CT unlocked, they'll force CT. How did this stop the ilvl cheesing exactly?

I personally don’t mind seeing people refraining from unlocking later raids even though it contributes to the number of CT raid popping. For somebody who enjoys the later raids more, not unlocking those would’ve seemed more of a ‘punishing yourself with mediocre experience’ than anything else in my perspective—they purposely deprive themselves from getting the side contents they’ve paid for (no extra raid, no glam, no relic, no thingamajig, missed opportunity to que with friends into those raids). I would see that as a loss if I do that myself, but I’m aware that’s not a perspective that everybody shares.

I only care enough in pre-fix when I 100% knew somebody cheesed by taking off their gears, and I’m happy to know they’re no longer a contributing factor nowadays.

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

Because they are too high level? I didn't miss your point at all. I just simply don't agree with your point :).

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Okay, so you didn't miss my point, you just ignored it. I guess the question is this: what good does it do to force them to gear up that much when they will not be put into any content requiring it?

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Originally Posted by Brynne

Okay, so you didn't miss my point, you just ignored it. I guess the question is this: what good does it do to force them to gear up that much when they will not be put into any content requiring it?

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I guess the question becomes if you try to set both a MSQ requirement and a gear requirement (so like once you reach a certain point in the MSQ then the gear requirement goes up) when in the MSQ do you apply the requirement

Like say shadow of mhach, should the requirement be as soon as you finish 3.0, when you finish 3.55, a random patch in the middle, unlike CT none of the other directly play into the MSQ so where do you put the restriction

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Originally Posted by Brynne

Okay, so you didn't miss my point, you just ignored it. I guess the question is this: what good does it do to force them to gear up that much when they will not be put into any content requiring it?

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This is an unfortunate casualty of quashing out iLvl cheese.

If your player in question is level 60 doing a level 60 roulette, they should be using gear appropriate for said roulette as a whole, not any specific piece of it. Now, I said earlier and would still push for requirements kicking in at 61/71/81 and not the 10s….but it is what it is.

…I honestly suspect that next, people who complained about ilvl cheese will now complain for other reasons about alliance raid..perhaps ultimately requiring players to unlock all alliance raids at their level in order to run roulette.

Pity too.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

OK, so they're geared. Now what? They can queue for the same raids they already had unlocked. If they only had CT unlocked, they'll force CT. How did this stop the ilvl cheesing exactly?

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because ilvl cheesing was a thing before CT became a msq Requirement. why it took them this long. i have no idea. honestly CT needs to be redone and just needs to be tossed in MSQ roulette as a 4 man at this point.

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

because ilvl cheesing was a thing before CT became a msq Requirement. why it took them this long. i have no idea. honestly CT needs to be redone and just needs to be tossed in MSQ roulette as a 4 man at this point.

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I don't agree CT should be changed into a 4 man. It still serves a purpose in introducing new players to 24-man raids. World of Darkness especially has unique mechanics new players wouldn't have seen before if they do it right after ARR.

Splitting out into its own roulette maybe, with separate rewards.

But doing so risks pushing the Alliance Roulette cheesing to a different raid. Whichever one gives the best rewards for the least effort.

Either way, the current solution doesn't stop cheesing. It only punishes overleveled players and serves to funnel gil into the MB for crafters. Cheesers are going to be the first to just buy gear off the MB, or have an alt they leave at 50, or buy a boost, or get a lvl 50 friend to queue with them.

If the current increase in rewards for the other raids isn't enough incentive to stop the cheesing, such that we needed an ilvl limit on the job, then taking MSQ progression into account and the Alliance Raids the player has unlocked will at least alleviate the problem of punishing innocent overleveled players.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

I don't agree CT should be changed into a 4 man. It still serves a purpose in introducing new players to 24-man raids. World of Darkness especially has unique mechanics new players wouldn't have seen before if they do it right after ARR.

Splitting out into its own roulette maybe, with separate rewards.

But doing so risks pushing the Alliance Roulette cheesing to a different raid. Whichever one gives the best rewards for the least effort.

Either way, the current solution doesn't stop cheesing. It only punishes overleveled players and serves to funnel gil into the MB for crafters. Cheesers are going to be the first to just buy gear off the MB, or have an alt they leave at 50, or buy a boost, or get a lvl 50 friend to queue with them.

If the current increase in rewards for the other raids isn't enough incentive to stop the cheesing, such that we needed an ilvl limit on the job, then taking MSQ progression into account and the Alliance Raids the player has unlocked will at least alleviate the problem of punishing innocent overleveled players.

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It still doesn’t change the fact that if you are overlevelled to the point that you are unable to meet the ilvl requirements you don’t need to be doing the alliance roulette

This change makes it vastly more annoying to ilvl cheese (characters that are already existing have to rely on another person, new players not unlocking the later raids is rare and locks you out from useful things like Bozja)

Saying to check both MSQ and level doesn’t change the fact that if you are overlevelled to the point you are blocked by these requirements you don’t need to do the alliance roulette

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It still doesn’t change the fact that if you are overlevelled to the point that you are unable to meet the ilvl requirements you don’t need to be doing the alliance roulette

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Saying to check both MSQ and level doesn’t change the fact that if you are overlevelled to the point you are blocked by these requirements you don’t need to do the alliance roulette

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Excuse me? Who are you to tell me or anyone else if we should or shouldn't be doing the Alliance Roulette?

What if I'm doing the Roulette during a Moogle event? Or doing it with friends? Or... I don't know, because I just damn well feel like it?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This change makes it vastly more annoying to ilvl cheese (characters that are already existing have to rely on another person, new players not unlocking the later raids is rare and locks you out from useful things like Bozja)

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And adding an MSQ condition to the ilvl check will change absolutely nothing about this. As for later raids being rare to unlock, you have any sources on that? Because I know multiple people who speed ran the MSQ and unlocked nothing else.

Your entire response boils down to, this solution isn't great, but let's not improve it because.. eh, eff those overleveled players who never did anything to anyone.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Excuse me? Who are you to tell me or anyone else if we should or shouldn't be doing the Alliance Roulette?

What if I'm doing the Roulette during a Moogle event? Or doing it with friends? Or... I don't know, because I just damn well feel like it?



And adding an MSQ condition to the ilvl check will change absolutely nothing about this. As for later raids being rare to unlock, you have any sources on that? Because I know multiple people who speed ran the MSQ and unlocked nothing else.

Your entire response boils down to, this solution isn't great, but let's not improve it because.. eh, eff those overleveled players who never did anything to anyone.

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And you aren’t blocked from doing the alliance roulette; you just need to go out and buy gear or run it on a different job this also applies for things like the tomestone events , the roulettes are there to fill queues for people who are queuing directly and this update has changed that, now it’s much easier to get nier and ivalice raids because people can’t cheese anymore

As for your point about “many people speedrun the MSQ that’s a small proportion; lucky brancho surveys show that over 80% of level 80% players have access to Bozja, that requires ivalice, lalaachievments only checks achievements so you can hide it but on there over 95% of players have the void ark achievement, the overwhelming majority of the playerbase has the alliance raids unlocked

Call it callous but like I said if you are level 84 on your main while during ARR you don’t need to do the alliance roulette

Just to add, there is nothing stopping a newly leveled 60 player from just buying gear to get the required ilvl.

Agaaaaiiin I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to require this 60 to have endgame-ish 60 gear just to do a roulette that would include the lower 60s…but by 63ish you really can/should be way over ilvl’d for the 60 roulette unless you just don’t want to gear up.

(And again I think the ilvl requirements should kick in a few levels later as a sort of grace period)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It still doesn’t change the fact that if you are overlevelled to the point that you are unable to meet the ilvl requirements you don’t need to be doing the alliance roulette

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Which is fine. We're playing a game to have fun.

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This change makes it vastly more annoying to ilvl cheese (characters that are already existing have to rely on another person, new players not unlocking the later raids is rare and locks you out from useful things like Bozja)

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But it turns out that was probably a rare occurrence, so nothing has really changed.

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Saying to check both MSQ and level doesn’t change the fact that if you are overlevelled to the point you are blocked by these requirements you don’t need to do the alliance roulette

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Regardless, the alliance roulette shouldn't lock you out for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And you aren’t blocked from doing the alliance roulette; you just need to go out and buy gear or run it on a different job this also applies for things like the tomestone events , the roulettes are there to fill queues for people who are queuing directly and this update has changed that, now it’s much easier to get nier and ivalice raids because people can’t cheese anymore

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No one should have to. They should be able to queue after unlocking the initial requirements, like any other roulette. AR is poorly designed.

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As for your point about “many people speedrun the MSQ that’s a small proportion; lucky brancho surveys show that over 80% of level 80% players have access to Bozja, that requires ivalice, lalaachievments only checks achievements so you can hide it but on there over 95% of players have the void ark achievement, the overwhelming majority of the playerbase has the alliance raids unlocked

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I don't see why only impacting a minority of players makes a problem go away. We could have a solution that reduces the change of CT popping up (ilvl probably doesn't) while at the same time not being overly complicated or annoying (like AR currently is).

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Call it callous but like I said if you are level 84 on your main while during ARR you don’t need to do the alliance roulette

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You don't need to anything in something that you opt into. It doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Just to add, there is nothing stopping a newly leveled 60 player from just buying gear to get the required ilvl.

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There may be a number of things from lack of funds or knowledge, to MSQ progress.

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Agaaaaiiin I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to require this 60 to have endgame-ish 60 gear just to do a roulette that would include the lower 60s…but by 63ish you really can/should be way over ilvl’d for the 60 roulette unless you just don’t want to gear up.

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This isn't always an issue of being a couple of levels off. You can hit 70 before MSQ level 50. I've done it, and that's not even being completely efficient at leveling.

Which circles back to the point that you aren’t actually getting locked out of the roulette, if you entire enjoyment of the game during the MSQ revolves around doing the alliance roulette you can do it on a secondary job or pay to buy higher level gear to do it on your main

You are literally only blocked from doing it on your massively overlevelled main if you also don’t want to shell out money to buy non tomestone gear, it’s such a non issue

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

As for your point about “many people speedrun the MSQ that’s a small proportion; lucky brancho surveys show that over 80% of level 80% players have access to Bozja, that requires ivalice, lalaachievments only checks achievements so you can hide it but on there over 95% of players have the void ark achievement, the overwhelming majority of the playerbase has the alliance raids unlocked

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Care to link this statistic? Because, I looked up this Lucky Bancho you just mentioned and what I see doesn't support that. It seems to be more around 50/50 of active players. Slightly higher for those who did unlock Bozja and Eureka.

https://luckybancho.ldblog.jp/wsurve...m?world=Global
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ja_vs_abyssos/

Then again, I'm not the smartest cookie when it comes to statistics, so what am I reading wrong here? Eureka Unopened 48.8% Save the Queen Unopened 47.6%

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And you aren’t blocked from doing the alliance roulette; you just need to go out and buy gear or run it on a different job this also applies for things like the tomestone events,...

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I said this before already, but having a workaround to a problem, doesn't make it a solution. Also, I'm confused... Isn't a point of contention on the forums, I've seen in the past, that there's no active gil sync in the game? Rich players with too much gil and nothing to do with it? Why are we actively supporting adding more gil then?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

...the roulettes are there to fill queues for people who are queuing directly and this update has changed that, now it’s much easier to get nier and ivalice raids because people can’t cheese anymore

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And how does locking out players who may have those raids unlocked and actively discouraging them from queueing help here? If they queued, you'd have an even higher chance of getting those raids, slight increase as it might be.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Call it callous but like I said if you are level 84 on your main while during ARR you don’t need to do the alliance roulette

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Callous is a good word for it, yes.

Point is simple, something that worked in the past for overleveled players was taken away from them, due to an implementation of a suggested fix by the playerbase. Said playerbase suggested a fix that was lacking, without putting any forethought into the consequences, and are now fervently arguing against an improvement to said fix. I don't think anyone who suggested this was acting in bad faith, but maybe egos are getting in the way of realising their idea was flawed.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Which circles back to the point that you aren’t actually getting locked out of the roulette, if you entire enjoyment of the game during the MSQ revolves around doing the alliance roulette you can do it on a secondary job or pay to buy higher level gear to do it on your main

You are literally only blocked from doing it on your massively overlevelled main if you also don’t want to shell out money to buy non tomestone gear, it’s such a non issue

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Why is it all or nothing? The game requires you to level to progress and has lot of different unlock conditions for different content. I doubt anyone's entire enjoyment of the game comes from alliance, but obviously the experience can be negative impacted by being thrown a random roadblock to content. It's just bad design. Let's fix it. There are no downsides, why would you actively defend bad design?

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

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You have to look at it in the context of how many people have actually reached the point that unlocking them becomes an option, saying 50% of people never unlocked Bozja implies that 50% of those who have the option to unlock Bozja have unlocked Bozja, however only 66% of the playerbase has completed the MSQ, obviously there is some amount in EW but 50% of 100% is about 80% of 66%, this is of course using Bozja as a proxy for ivalice, lalaachievments is better and put completion of the raids at over 95%

I wouldn’t even consider Gil sink a factor in here, old crafted gear is extremely cheap, lack of incentive for people to level crafters is a different argument to the Gil sink problem, but neither factor in here because old gear is cheap

Because it’s locking out the very small fraction of people who don’t have this stuff unlocked; if you are level 84 in the post ARR MSQ you aren’t helping anyone because the roulette doesn’t need any more incentive to pop CT, this change increased the proportion of people queuing for the roulette who are adequately levelled and have all the raids unlocked

I have no idea why you are acting like the level 90 playerbase made some unified decision on this, I have no reason to defend squares decision on this as some point of pride, it has just been a positive change for the roulette

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Why is it all or nothing? The game requires you to level to progress and has lot of different unlock conditions for different content. I doubt anyone's entire enjoyment of the game comes from alliance, but obviously the experience can be negative impacted by being thrown a random roadblock to content. It's just bad design. Let's fix it. There are no downsides, why would you actively defend bad design?

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Because the suggestion being offered (check MSQ progression) isn’t an improvement for anyone but the tiny fraction of the playerbase affected by this who are also complaining about it

If you are level 84 in the ARR post game you only have CT unlocked, you are functionally accidentally ILVL cheesing, the roulette doesn’t need more incentives to pop CT, doubt it on another job is already going to pop CT more anyway

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You have to look at it in the context of how many people have actually reached the point that unlocking them becomes an option, saying 50% of people never unlocked Bozja implies that 50% of those who have the option to unlock Bozja have unlocked Bozja, however only 66% of the playerbase has completed the MSQ, obviously there is some amount in EW but 50% of 100% is about 80% of 66%, this is of course using Bozja as a proxy for ivalice, lalaachievments is better and put completion of the raids at over 95%

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I see.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I wouldn’t even consider Gil sink a factor in here, old crafted gear is extremely cheap, lack of incentive for people to level crafters is a different argument to the Gil sink problem, but neither factor in here because old gear is cheap

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Uhm, no, it's very relevant. You're arguing for players who may or may not have the funds to buy said gear and funnel their limited gil to players who have the means of crafting it. Having said that, how cheap the gear is, depends entirely on the gear's level and the demand for said gear as well. If we were all to just shut up and buy said gear, even level 60 gear would increase in demand, raising their prices, making them even more expensive, funneling even more gil. So it's very relevant, and that's saying nothing about what the gear will cost next expansion.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because it’s locking out the very small fraction of people who don’t have this stuff unlocked; if you are level 84 in the post ARR MSQ you aren’t helping anyone because the roulette doesn’t need any more incentive to pop CT, this change increased the priorities of people queuing for the roulette who are adequately levelled and have all the raids unlocked

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I see. So a fraction of the playerbase losing access to something they had in the past, they don't matter.

You realise overleveled players don't necessarily need to be in ARR right? They're just one example. You could have level 70s still doing HW, level 80s still doing SB, level 90s still finishing up ShB. I have everything up to Nier unlocked and I'm locked out of AR on my favourite jobs right now. All those players, could be queueing right now and might have just decided to give up on AR completely. I know I have. It's also a matter of principle.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I have no idea why you are acting like the level 90 playerbase made some unified decision on this, I have no reason to defend squares decision on this as some point of pride, it has just been a positive change for the roulette

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On this, I agree. I was merely commenting on the fact that previous posts mentioned this was something the playerbase suggested and pushed for and SE implemented to appease them. Take it with a grain of salt.

Buying gear is only one option, we are talking about a tiny fraction of the playerbase and there is an upper limit to the prices because there is a tje roof of the cost of vendor bought gear (plus crafted gear is annoying to make) this problem isn’t going to start a crafting revolution where meany omniceafters extort low level players of Gil for access to the alliance roulette

And yes, my point doesn’t change, the greater the proportion of 90’s with all raids unlocked the better the roulette is for its actual function….popping raids for people who queue directly for them, this could be fixed by forcing people to unlocked cap level side content but they are never going to do that so increasing proportion of 90’s is the next best option

This isn’t the best option but the alternative of checking the MSQ just returns the ILVL cheese by proxy problem; which for the record I support forcing unlocking side content to keep the roulettes open on all roulettes with optional content so I also support locking the normal raid roulette if you refuse to unlock anything besides A1 and A2

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Buying gear is only one option, we are talking about a tiny fraction of the playerbase and there is an upper limit to the prices because there is a tje roof of the cost of vendor bought gear (plus crafted gear is annoying to make) this problem isn’t going to start a crafting revolution where meany omniceafters extort low level players of Gil for access to the alliance roulette

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What vendor bought gear is going to uncap someone in Cryptlurker gear who is level 90 and without access to Endwalker content?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And yes, my point doesn’t change, the greater the proportion of 90’s with all raids unlocked the better the roulette is for its actual function….popping raids for people who queue directly for them, this could be fixed by forcing people to unlocked cap level side content but they are never going to do that so increasing proportion of 90’s is the next best option

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I see. So a level 80 with Ivalice and Nier unlocked doesn't count? Only people who've completed every expansion are the best option? Why even progress the story then? Every new player should just buy a boost to 80 and do Endwalker. The roulettes are there to fill the queues for every player queuing not just those at 90. Or else there wouldn't be an MSQ Roulette and poetics wouldn't be rewarded to 50s/60s/70s/80s.

90s are not the only important player.. Once they've done their patch content and farmed everything they could, some will unsub or stop queuing and go do something else. Having 80s and 70s, who still haven't completed everything in the game, available to fill queues is just as important.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This isn’t the best option but the alternative of checking the MSQ just returns the ILVL cheese by proxy problem; which for the record I support forcing unlocking side content to keep the roulettes open on all roulettes with optional content so I also support locking the normal raid roulette if you refuse to unlock anything besides A1 and A2

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How does adding an extra two conditions to the existing solution return the ilvl cheese problem? It's not overleveled players who are causing ilvl cheese. It's high level players who were taking off their gear that was causing the ilvl cheese problem. Are we really getting to a point now where we're going to lump together ilvl cheesers and players who take their time doing the content slowly, or overleveled because of the road to 80 buff?

It's only slightly more annoying to ilvl cheese now. As soon as the current raid farming is done, and the endgame players got all their stuff and just start doing the roulette to cap for the week, they'll start cheesing the raids again to get the best reward for the least effort.

You missed my point; I’m not saying that nobody besides 90’s should queue im saying if you aren’t queuing directly for a raid and instead queuing via the alliance raid for the person queuing for a random raid statistically a level 90 with everything unlocked is the most useful person to them because they have the best opportunity to help them, the bonuses exist to encourage higher level players to queue for old content to fill the queues, of course a level 80 player who has ivalice and nier unlocked isn’t useless but they do block myths, so just based on the average person, level 90’s are the most helpful as generic roulette queuers for roulettes filled with optional content

And again you miss my point, I’m not saying you are actually ilvl cheesing by being overlevelled I’m saying that to a person trying to queue for nier raid 3 a person purposefully ilvl cheesing and someone at level 79 in the HW MSQ queuing for the alliance raid functionally achieve the same thing- proccing crystal tower over tower at paradigms breach

You have to understand that the position you are in is not the target for the roulettes, and you having access to them on an overlevelled character while in the HW MSQ is inadvertently causing the same problem as intentional ilvl cheesers

I didn't miss your point at all. I disagree with your previous statement. Like you said:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

the bonuses exist to encourage higher level players to queue for old content to fill the queues, of course a level 80 player who has ivalice and nier unlocked isn’t useless but they do block myths

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Someone queuing for myths, should just queue for myths, because that's what the latest raid to farm. If someone else with myths unlocked queues for AR they'll be added to it. If at the same time a level 60 player queues to do Void Ark, a level 80 player is in a better position to help them, because they've done it, they can be added to it while the level 90s help each other to farm myths. The roulettes are there to populate the queue for players progressing through the msq, not just for 90s to farm myths.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And again you miss my point, I’m not saying you are actually ilvl cheesing by being overlevelled I’m saying that to a person trying to queue for nier raid 3 a person purposefully ilvl cheesing and someone at level 79 in the HW MSQ queuing for the alliance raid functionally achieve the same thing- proccing crystal tower over tower at paradigms breach

You have to understand that the position you are in is not the target for the roulettes, and you having access to them on an overlevelled character while in the HW MSQ is inadvertently causing the same problem as intentional ilvl cheesers

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And no I don't buy that, sorry. Just because the end result is the same, doesn't mean the solution should remain this way.

One, because even if I just buy the gear off the MB as a 79 in HW MSQ, then I'm allowed to queue and functionally I'm still going to force CT, and when going back to my own MSQ all I'm accomplishing is making my MSQ even easier than it already is in the process and two, the developers added alot of extra little easter eggs into the MSQ for completionists, indicating that they do in fact encourage you to take your time and unlock as much as you can.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

I didn't miss your point at all. I disagree with your previous statement. Like you said:



Someone queuing for myths, should just queue for myths, because that's what the latest raid to farm. If someone else with myths unlocked queues for AR they'll be added to it. If at the same time a level 60 player queues to do Void Ark, a level 80 player is in a better position to help them, because they've done it, they can be added to it while the level 90s help each other to farm myths. The roulettes are there to populate the queue for players progressing through the msq, not just for 90s to farm myths.



And no I don't buy that, sorry. Just because the end result is the same, doesn't mean the solution should remain this way.

One, because even if I just buy the gear off the MB as a 79 in HW MSQ, then I'm allowed to queue and functionally I'm still going to force CT, and when going back to my own MSQ all I'm accomplishing is making my MSQ even easier than it already is in the process and two, the developers added alot of extra little easter eggs into the MSQ for completionists, indicating that they do in fact encourage you to take your time and unlock as much as you can.

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That comment shows you did miss my point because I’m not saying that someone who wants to queue for myths should queue through the alliance roulette I’m saying if persona a wants to queue for a raid (it doesn’t matter which one just any raid amongst the 12 of them) for their queue to pop faster person b who is level 90 and has everything unlocked is more useful on average than person c who has only CT and ivalice unlocked, this is taking a roulette wide view, in your example the person who is level 90 is still equally as useful as the level 80 to the level 60 but they are also the only one useful to the level 90 so in the roulette wide view the 90 should be more encouraged, this has nothing to do with farming myths

And that’s why I have said the objectively superior option is to lock the optional roulettes as soon as you have the ability to access new content for them but the recent bungle with Gaia shows that they refuse to even entertain that idea, the next best solution is what we have now because low level queuing is still ilvl cheesing by proxy, you can even dodge it with the methods listed, it’s why I don’t think this is a perfect solution, but MSQ checking won’t be a roulette wide improvement because of the fact that alliance raids draw 24 people

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That comment shows you did miss my point because I’m not saying that someone who wants to queue for myths should queue through the alliance roulette I’m saying if persona a wants to queue for a raid (it doesn’t matter which one just any raid amongst the 12 of them) for their queue to pop faster person b who is level 90 and has everything unlocked is more useful on average than person c who has only CT and ivalice unlocked, this is taking a roulette wide view, in your example the person who is level 90 is still equally as useful as the level 80 to the level 60 but they are also the only one useful to the level 90 so in the roulette wide view the 90 should be more encouraged, this has nothing to do with farming myths

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No, you're missing my point. Assuming two players, one level 90 and one level 80, queued for AR at the same time... if another level 90 is farming Myths, the level 90 in the AR queue is better positioned to help them over the level 60 who just queued for Void Ark. The level 80 however, can't help with Myths, so they'll be pushed to Void Ark. I'm explaining how a level 80 or even lower may be more important than a level 90 in some situations for people progressing. I'm not claiming the level 90 isn't important, I'm saying in such a situation the level 90 would be more useful to help in content that lower level players wouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And that’s why I have said the objectively superior option is to lock the optional roulettes as soon as you have the ability to access new content for them but the recent bungle with Gaia shows that they refuse to even entertain that idea, the next best solution is what we have now because low level queuing is still ilvl cheesing by proxy, you can even dodge it with the methods listed, it’s why I don’t think this is a perfect solution, but MSQ checking won’t be a roulette wide improvement because of the fact that alliance raids draw 24 people

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I'm sorry, I don't know what bungle you're referencing.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

No, you're missing my point. Assuming two players, one level 90 and one level 80, queued for AR at the same time... if another level 90 is farming Myths, the level 90 in the AR queue is better positioned to help them over the level 60 who just queued for Void Ark. The level 80 however, can't help with Myths, so they'll be pushed to Void Ark. I'm explaining how a level 80 or even lower may be more important than a level 90 in some situations for people progressing. I'm not claiming the level 90 isn't important, I'm saying in such a situation the level 90 would be more useful to help in content that lower level players wouldn't be.



I'm sorry, I don't know what bungle you're referencing.

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The 90 is equally useful to both, it depends on which queued first, that’s what I mean, the 90 is more Omni useful

Oh sorry I won’t say more than basically a major side character should have shown up in the MSQ but they refused to do it properly because she was a side character, which shows they are never going to do the best option of locking down the roulettes

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Oh sorry I won’t say more than basically a major side character should have shown up in the MSQ but they refused to do it properly because she was a side character, which shows they are never going to do the best option of locking down the roulettes

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I know who Gaia is, don't worry. I guess I can infer that they did something in the EW MSQ to cover cases for those who didn't complete Eden?

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

I know who Gaia is, don't worry. I guess I can infer that they did something in the EW MSQ to cover cases for those who didn't complete Eden?

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Basically they said they would have special cutscenes for people who did eden and then they really didn’t follow through because the whole MSQ would have worked so much better if they had forced people to just do eden so they could use Gaia freely