It's about time to add Coil story mode, isn't it ?

When I talk about wanting story mode, I'm talking about all levels of coil, not just the old ones.

I also don't want anything nerfed.

I just want a mode with no loot or completion lockouts, so that it's easier for FCs and linkshells to work as a group so more people can master this content.

(For the record, I've beaten T5, so I'm not one of those people.)

I'm currently working on T6, and it's super frustrating because while I'm probably good enough to win it, I can't seem to find a party of seven other people who are as knowledgeable about the fight as I am.

If there were no weekly completion lockouts, I'd have gotten a win with my FC weeks ago and would be much deeper into Coil2. Instead, I'm stuck beating my head against the wall not because I'm lazy, but because it's so damn hard finding seven other competent people.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

You're completely missing what I'm saying. I'll explain.

I'm in a great guild, and have lots of in-game friends. My FC has a couple of coil statics going already.

The problem is, completion lockouts prevent the FC from really helping people through coil, because those statics are already set and people already have their weekly wins. Once they win, they can't go back and help other FC members like myself. That's where a story mode would help.

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It's not puzzling.

They purposefully do this instead of a CT/ST style look lockout so you can't easily carry new people through the content and for players to create their own story. For example. A newbie player has never tried T6 before, but gets 7 of his friends who have been beating it for weeks walk up and get him a win by the end of the day. As we all know it's easier to learn a fight when all the other players are doing this correctly already. It's a deliberate attempt to make users responsible for their own progress and to play with like minded individuals in a similar point in their progress as you so that you are all working hard together to achieve a hard fought victory that becomes your story. What you're asking for a system that trivializes those victories and accomplishments by making them common place.

You seem to forget that there is a huge part of the player base that wants it that way and would argue just as vehemently for it as you are for a story mode. Square has to make the game fulfilling for both sides and the balance struck is to make the current top end content restricted in this way. It puts it out of reach for a very short time for the "hard core" to go at it, and then puts it in the hands of everyone else for full on consumption. Everyone gets access to the fights eventually, and the hardcore get their time in the sun. If there wasn't a end-game in this style this game would be dead already. The past is littered with MMO's that didn't have a fulfilling end game. What you ask for would in a very literal way hurt this game and it's future.

I get it. I would love to help my friends too, but I look at the bigger picture and I know it would be worse to do what you suggest.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

I've tried several times forming coil statics in linkshells, but completion lockouts have always succeeding in tearing those groups apart. Members get wins with other groups, then can't run with us, and eventually they just leave. This isn't a result of me failing to try, but of SE's puzzling decisions regarding lockouts and community infrastructure.

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This is the first time I've heard something like this. Are you sure you're actually forming statics and making people believe they're in one?

Personally haven't beaten T9 myself even though the first time I stepped into T9 was 3 months+ ago. My own group's problem was a severe schedule issue and some attitude problems. We've tried reforming like 3 times already but each new people we get and train up keep flaking out due to yet again their schedule. It's gotten to the point where the past month or two i've only seen nael twice (no point in forcing a win through pugs). And it wasn't even to the golems part. We're gonna try forming again soon but probably will have to see how much our new fc people wants the win badly and what classes we're gonna need. Hell, I've been on pld, drg, blm and soon brd just trying to let the people we recruit be whatever they want.

Twiggy, you bring up some great points in that second paragraph, and you very well could be right.

It's a catch-22, I guess. I've seen lots of players quit this game out of frustration not because they're lazy, but because they got tired of beating their heads against the wall (starting back in the early days of Titan HM). There are many hard-working players who want to get through coil, but the game punishes them for not having static parties.

Meanwhile, this game really makes communities pointless. It's like my situation... I'm in this awesome FC that's filled with knowledgeable, helpful players... but the game's infrastructure prevents them from helping me. It's definitely frustrating, and many players share in this frustration. I know people who've quit over this.

That said, having these lockouts certainly lengthens the lifespan of these events... I totally get that. But at what cost? Is it better to wall people out, causing people to get frustrated and leave? Or is it better to incentivize more people to participate, which may take some of the exclusiveness from endgame, which may cause some super hardcore raiders to leave?

Personally, I think a no-loot story mode would be fine. People could still get clears for content, but they wouldn't have the rare, epic loot that hardcore raiders have. There would still be that pinnacle tier for those super hardcore players to stand on.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

Twiggy, you bring up some great points in that second paragraph, and you very well could be right.

It's a catch-22, I guess. I've seen lots of players quit this game out of frustration not because they're lazy, but because they got tired of beating their heads against the wall (starting back in the early days of Titan HM). There are many hard-working players who want to get through coil, but the game punishes them for not having static parties.

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I think this is one of those crappy situations where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I don't know what they could realistically do to free it up, but still maintain that rewarding end game experience. The only thing I could think of is faster end game cycles so that things swap out of the end game faster, but that has crazy amounts of other consequences on the game that make it unfeasible.

Game theory is a tough, tough mistress. Especially with so many different groups and play styles.

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Game theory is a tough, tough mistress. Especially with so many different groups and play styles.

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Aye. /10chars.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

You seem to forget that there is a huge part of the player base that wants it that way and would argue just as vehemently for it as you are for a story mode. Square has to make the game fulfilling for both sides and the balance struck is to make the current top end content restricted in this way. It puts it out of reach for a very short time for the "hard core" to go at it, and then puts it in the hands of everyone else for full on consumption. Everyone gets access to the fights eventually, and the hardcore get their time in the sun. If there wasn't a end-game in this style this game would be dead already. The past is littered with MMO's that didn't have a fulfilling end game. What you ask for would in a very literal way hurt this game and it's future.

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This opinion is well stated and resonates much more than "get better", "just uninstall" and "mad cause bad". Thank you, sir or madame.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

That said, having these lockouts certainly lengthens the lifespan of these events... I totally get that. But at what cost? Is it better to wall people out, causing people to get frustrated and leave? Or is it better to incentivize more people to participate, which may take some of the exclusiveness from endgame, which may cause some super hardcore raiders to leave?

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Am I the only one believing said "ultra-hardcore raiders" are like totally negligible when it comes to player base proportion ? If they are stupid enough to leave if they lose their story exclusiveness, they won't really weight a lot on the balance.

But I do trust they aren't idiot enough to react that childishly

An easier alternative is to remove any kind of important story from Coil and any future raids.　It should be a side quest kind of like Hildebrant.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Am I the only one believing said "ultra-hardcore raiders" are like totally negligible when it comes to player base proportion ? If they are stupid enough to leave if they lose their story exclusiveness, they won't really weight a lot on the balance.

But I do trust they aren't idiot enough to react that childishly

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MMO's literally fail because of the lack of a rewarding end game for those "ultra-hardcore raiders." It's the number 1 reason cited when MMO's fail. So no, it's not negligible.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

just please don't bother to post if it's purely to troll.

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Not trolling. You asked in the original post, and I quote "[For] a version of the coil which would only serves the purpose of giving the story to players." You didn't ask to experience the story, so I "gave" you the cut scenes to feed you the story like you wanted. I don't see how I'm wrong. You received exactly what you asked for.

In regards to the reference Adamant made about the player on LoL, his point was that with enough effort anyone can achieve their goal. But I guess that went right past you and you saw it as a game comparison and needing to be disabled to get anywhere...I won't ask how you came to that conclusion...but I'll let you be.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

MMO's literally fail because of the lack of a rewarding end game for those "ultra-hardcore raiders." It's the number 1 reason cited when MMO's fail. So no, it's not negligible.

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MMO usually fail when they catter to hard to once side of the player base totally ignoring the other or when they never decide what to do. And I have high doubts a MMO would fail because of "no rewarding end game" alone. there are MMOs without any relevant endgame and still going.

On the other end, FFxiv 1.xx didn't fail because of whatever endgame might have been back then but because the game plainly failed to see what the players wanted, or so they said themselves.

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Originally Posted by Vekial

Not trolling. You asked in the original post, and I quote "[For] a version of the coil which would only serves the purpose of giving the story to players." You didn't ask to experience the story, so I "gave" you the cut scenes to feed you the story like you wanted. I don't see how I'm wrong. You received exactly what you asked for..

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playing semantics doesn't reduce the amount of trolling.

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Originally Posted by Vekial

In regards to the reference Adamant made about the player on LoL, his point was that with enough effort anyone can achieve their goal. But I guess that went right past you and you saw it as a game comparison and needing to be disabled to get anywhere...I won't ask how you came to that conclusion...but I'll let you be.

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And his point is still invalid because what that man did, many others would not have been able to come any close. You draw your own conclusions on my post and said they were mine. I merely said that because one random guy is good at one random game despite being disable/blind/whatever does not mean anyone is able to do something else, much less on a totally different field.

I'll say it again :
This guy is good at LoL even though he's disabled. OK, fair enough. He's even better than I am on that game. Yet this is totally irrelevant when it comes to other people's ability to do anything, especially is what you expect them to do is unrelated to the example you give.

Wanna hear an example ? I hard carried a guy through T5 back then. He died on every single mechanic of the fight the whole 20 hours we went in training him to help him, and in the end he was so desperate that we just stopped intentionally wiping in last phase and got it done. He would just never have done it. Should he feel ashamed because a disabled guy is good at LoL ? That's what the argument says

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Originally Posted by Thayos

That said, having these lockouts certainly lengthens the lifespan of these events... I totally get that. But at what cost? Is it better to wall people out, causing people to get frustrated and leave? Or is it better to incentivize more people to participate, which may take some of the exclusiveness from endgame, which may cause some super hardcore raiders to leave?

Personally, I think a no-loot story mode would be fine. People could still get clears for content, but they wouldn't have the rare, epic loot that hardcore raiders have. There would still be that pinnacle tier for those super hardcore players to stand on.

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If you have a cake walk 'story mode', people would clear them in a day and then have nothing to do again because they still can't clear the normal mode. Coil turns where all the attacks are non-lethal would not teach players anything unless SE goes out of their way to make an actual practice mode. That means something like visual and audio cues so that players can tell that those twisters they're eating are actually deadly in normal mode and also score tracking e.g.: finish the fight and you get to see how many mistakes you made, how many times you could have died had this been a normal mode, etc.

If you have a normal 'story mode', people with connections but no statics can get clears and then have nothing to do raid wise after their first clear. The only thing left to do will still be doing the weekly lockout where they can actually get loot but this time they'll have no 'friends' to carry/back them up and they're back to square one: sifting through the pugs each week or sifting through the pugs to make a static themselves. In the end, if the only aim is getting a one time win for a clear, this is just a matter of waiting 6 months or however long till your 'friends in another static' learns the fight enough so they can help you through once.

In the end, it's either SE having to spend time on a not half-baked practice mode or SE risking the stability of the playerbase by making turn spam available immediately after release instead of 6 months after.

Many of you have never played other games, so allow me to give you some information on how it works in other places.

No loot, just story = terrible idea and wholly unique to FF players. Tiered raiding still needs *some* level of loot. No, it shouldn't be the best gear you can obtain from beating the most challenging of content, but it *should* be a stepping stone into harder content. The way that it works in WoW is the LFR level of difficulty still has drops, but they are no where near the level of a heroic version of the raid. However, you run LFR to gear for flex\normal, and if all you wanted is the story, it ends there. Then you run normal to gear for heroic. Those that complete heroic are clearly marked, because they get the highest ilvl gear and often the gear is much better looking.

Adding a story mode coil with no drops at all wouldn't work. No one would run it, despite those folks who say they want just the "Story". If it was just that, then they would go into Youtube like some have suggested. Tiered raiding is a great idea, but it needs to be implemented in a way that makes sense and that has been proven to work elsewhere. I know that many people hate WoW (usually irrationally), but they have implemented some incredibly great things that gives all their players a level of difficulty\reward that is appropriate to their individual time commitment and skill level. SE can do that here as well and in some cases already has with tiered Avatar fights. They just need to extend it into the raiding aspect.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

MMO usually fail when they catter to hard to once side of the player base totally ignoring the other or when they never decide what to do. And I have high doubts a MMO would fail because of "no rewarding end game" alone. there are MMOs without any relevant endgame and still going.

On the other end, FFxiv 1.xx didn't fail because of whatever endgame might have been back then but because the game plainly failed to see what the players wanted, or so they said themselves.

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I would say
A) You need to do some more research on why MMO's fail to gain traction and either die or revert to a f2p model because end game is a very large factor.
B) FFXIV is arguably the worst big budget MMO to launch in a decade so yes it had other problems than just end game. That doesn't necessarily mean many others doesn't fail due to poor end games.

I think you underestimate the effect the end game crowd has on an MMO in a big way.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I believe that in i160 gear, people will still fail Twintania unless they make it so that twisters don't instantly kill, and the flame wall doesn't instantly kill. As long as they keep that, people will still be blocked by it. Gear does not cure bad (or lag).

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i160 would be next expansion pack and I doubt that they don't nerf Twintania with 3.0

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Originally Posted by Shioban

You didn't read anything I typed clearly, they ARE adding it, as they DO care. Please consider reading what people type before responding so swiftly.

But they're never going to add it straight away as that would means developing four variations of the fight;

[1] Original Concept/Battle Design - (Too Difficult for main-stream raiding)
[2] Watered Down "Normal Raid" through various adjustments
[3] Savage Mode based on Original Concept
[4] Story Mode, simple or no fights altogether

That is a lot of time and work that could be better spent elsewhere, which is why we're only seeing savage modes of the fight now.


Considering they're already on a 3-month development cycle it doesn't leave a lot of breathing room, you'll simply have to be patient, the actual raid content will always come first before the nerfs.[/url]

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I read everything, there's nothing in my post to make you assume I didn't. I gave my opinion not based on facts or numbers but by simple personal opinion on what I think a paying customer is entitled to and nothing more.
Just to clarify, I read every single page before posting a single comment, I doubt that was swift by any means because I think by then it was up about 30 pages.
I'm just not about to repeat what many have said before me so it can get lost in a sea of posts and start arguments with people who have been arguing for days already.

My reasoning is much more simple. It will make them happy, the story is important, it's not hurting anyone and they pay just as much for the game.

Also you number 1 and 3 are the same thing

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If you have a cake walk 'story mode'

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Again, I'm not asking for a "cake walk" story mode.

I just want a repeatable version of the SAME THING that doesn't drop any loot. No nerfing. None. Just give people a chance to beat the content without needing a static.

NO NERFS!

And if you go back a page or two, you'll see you're late to this discussion. Read my posts, then Twiggy's, and you'll see this has already been talked out. Twiggy brought up excellent points that are actually relevant counterpoints to what I want.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

If your ISP is not Verizon, I don't care. That is a different issue. Lag makes coil unplayable, and that is a fact. How can you possibly explain dodging divebombs or picking up adds when there is at least 10 second delays in everything you do and see on your screen?

To the rest of your argument, you don't seem to understand that people will not have access to later coils and gear by clearing an easy mode, as explained in the OP. If anything, this would make the playerbase better, as they'd have an avenue for practice. This is purely for storyline purposes.

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I'm not on Verizon, I'm in Europe with 170 ms ping and 30% packet loss. Stuff stops moving on my screen for gigantic periods of time randomly unless I use a VPN service to get around the issue in my ISPs network. Prior to figuring out what the issue was I have killed Twintania while stuff warped around on my screen and my group would reset the fight should I be lagging at a bad point. Lag is no excuse.

Now, for "viewing the story" only. Endgame content in this game will not get easier. New, harder challenges will always have to be developed and released onto the players. That only stays true however if over half the player base doesn't lose their incentive to learn to play the game properly. I fear for the upcoming content and how it will have to be "easy enough" for those who can't even kill Twintania. Dungeons will continue to be the most infernally boring thing ever since they can't make them challenging for this exact reason. That is the only reason I don't want it to be handed out to those incapable of getting good.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Adding a story mode coil with no drops at all wouldn't work. No one would run it, despite those folks who say they want just the "Story". If it was just that, then they would go into Youtube like some have suggested. Tiered raiding is a great idea, but it needs to be implemented in a way that makes sense and that has been proven to work elsewhere. I know that many people hate WoW (usually irrationally), but they have implemented some incredibly great things that gives all their players a level of difficulty\reward that is appropriate to their individual time commitment and skill level. SE can do that here as well and in some cases already has with tiered Avatar fights. They just need to extend it into the raiding aspect.

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You have a point...there is already a "story mode" fights in this game as is...specifically in Non Hard Mode Primal Fights, no loot whatsoever...they are there just to advance the main story line, how many run normal primal fights these days over and over and over?...not counting helping friends or winding up doing it cause of roulette?, ive read through most of this thread and both sides have made some valid points, i would say SE and Yoshi's team should come up with a Coil Lite(sounds like a new alcoholic beer/beverage) version....which is already implemented in turns 1-5 with the echo, Do we really want something easier than that?...if so maybe Yoshi's team should tweak the fights a bit more for those that are still having trouble. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

MMO usually fail when they catter to hard to once side of the player base totally ignoring the other or when they never decide what to do. And I have high doubts a MMO would fail because of "no rewarding end game" alone. there are MMOs without any relevant endgame and still going.

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You really should look at the rise and decline of WoW. The highest growth of subscription rates for WoW was during original vanilla and BC when in fact most of the content was closed off to 99%. Even though it was closed, it kind of kept a goal. With WoTLK it peaked around Ulduar which was basically the birth of normal and heroic. Through the rest of WoTLK sub's stayed about constant and with Cataclysm it started to nose dive as they streamlined all the content. If a game doesn't have a certain amount of difficulty it has no replay value and becomes one of those one day games instead of something that needs to be continuously worked on. With no endgame, not only will raiders lose interest but also most everyone else that doesn't use the game as just a chat service. With no substance every server except Balmung will be a ghost town.

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Originally Posted by Nici

ive read through most of this thread and both sides have made some valid points, i would say SE and Yoshi's team should come up with a Coil Lite(sounds like a new alcoholic beer/beverage) version....which is already implemented in turns 1-5 with the echo, Do we really want something easier than that?...if so maybe Yoshi's team should tweak the fights a bit more for those that are still having trouble. *shrugs*

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That's what I think they should do. It's easy to beat this stuff for a lot of people but not everyone is as fortunate. If they just tweaked some of the mechanics in the fights so it's easy enough to do, I don't think it would be bad. Not for loot or achievements and certainly not for bragging rights, but just to experience the story for themselves.

So many say it's a waste of dev time but taking into consideration there's a huge amount of players that can't enjoy the coil story because of the difficulty of the content, time needed, static creation or whatever the reason, and new content that comes out will just push those people further from the story. It's just another thing that they can't experience.
Thinking of it that way, it's not wasted dev time unless your thinking of only yourself (not you specifically).

I don't see any harm in it, I can give up some of my "dev time" so that these guys can at least experience the story. I'm not so selfish that I will demand new content for me right now! When every new thing just pushes people that much further

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Snip

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I'm honestly very confused as to why you're so focused on the comparison I made as opposed to the overall point of my post. My post isn't invalid just because you're taking offense to the comparison I used.

Vekial is right. The point of the comparison was to give an example in which perseverance and effort helped to gain the results that someone was hoping to achieve, and that said person had bigger obstacles to overcome when attempting to reach that goal than a good chunk of the people who would want a "story mode" for Coil will have to face. It was not meant to compare games, or compare the skill required between games (although you would be hard pressed to convince me that getting to Gold is easier than Twintania).

Everyone has different motivations for trying to complete content, and the story is one of them. Introducing a story mode would take away one of the motivators that some people need to push themselves to get better, and to quote one of my favorite youtubers, "A game cannot survive when its average players are completing content that they perceive to be the same as its best players."

In the end, my feelings on the topic don't matter, and the developers will choose to add whatever content they wish. However, there are many games that have come before FF14, all with different approaches to design, and I hope that the developers study the consequences of various development strategies before they do anything silly.

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Originally Posted by Nici

i would say SE and Yoshi's team should come up with a Coil Lite(sounds like a new alcoholic beer/beverage)

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Coca Coila Lite as a new CUL 3 star recipe please ? :D

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Originally Posted by CUTS3R

Coca Coila Lite as a new CUL 3 star recipe please ? :D

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Oh please that would totally be an Alchemy 3 star recipe. =P

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Originally Posted by Airikay

with Cataclysm it started to nose dive as they streamlined all the content. If a game doesn't have a certain amount of difficulty it has no replay value and becomes one of those one day games instead of something that needs to be continuously worked on.

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I think you are an interesting historian. Cataclysm lost subs because they adopted a model of severe difficulty for all levels of content, including entry level. It blocked many casual players from any progress. They also had a weak storyline, and not enough *new* zones. Overall it wasn't one of their better xpacs, but it certainly didn't decline because people found it to be too *easy*. I agree that by the time we got WoTLK (though that was my favorite xpac) and Cata their "glory days" were largely over, but those "glory days" were also at the dawn of the mmo, when many of our generation were young and had a lot of time to throw ourselves into masochistic hobbies. The new generation just isn't the same. It's not new anymore. There's more choice. But, I do still think that SE has some things to learn from Bliz. They've managed to hold onto a massive playerbase for a very long time. They are doing something right.

I guess we will just see what happens next month. That game still manages to boast a playerbase several times the size of this one, and they do it with only one platform.

The content was designed for a specific category of players, and those who aren't in that category who wish to experience the content must wait. Just as it is with a lot of other content in this game that is arbitrarily gated.

As it currently is, I'm fine with. Players that are willing and capable clear the content when it's relevant. Those that are willing yet incapable clear it when it becomes irrelevant. Those unwilling and incapable will see the story when the entire arc is completed and the content originally tied to it all is irrelevant.

So, if you aren't willing or capable to clear this content, whether its current or nerfed, I agree. You too should be able to see this story.

In 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

I read some of your posts again and now I wonder where you had seen anything about adding story mode right of the bat along with new tier or anything. If anything, I asked for T1-5 version soon because it's been a year already and... it's pretty pointless now. Only FC carry groups ever fill with reasonable chance to succeed. SCoB could benefit to come soon too as it will be irrelevant when 2.4 comes so yeah, why not. T10~14ish ? hell not, not before 2.6 at best (2.6 which is likely to be 3.0 but meh, you see the point).

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Already explained why.

4-variations of the fight per immediate implementation is far too much work. They might do it in the future, but their philosophy is to nerf content gradually not immediately, ESPECIALLY raid end-game content

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Just have to point out. Savage mode isn't really based on "original concept" if you look at the mechanics they were specifically changed to prevent us from using "mainstream strats/tricks"

I mean MAYBE this was the original design but I highly doubt it. More like they looked at what we were doing and thought, "Let's just make this fight harder by changing x/y" "This will buy us time until 2.4!"

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The development team already said the original design is basicly what they wanted to do in savage coil, as it was considered too hard to use for the original implementation in 2.0.
Whether it actually is or not, I'm not 100% sure, just going based on what they've said.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Is it bad that when I saw "or no fights altogether", all I could think of was them using the zone, and adding a static dead-body of Twintantia, and when you enter, you just... get a cutscene where Twin is lying there on the ground, dead. "Seems someone already did the work for us." xD and then moving along...

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Thats pretty much my worry, that it'll either be a mindless DPS zerg with no thought to it, or nothing at all.

I think a better solution for Coil Story Mode would be to introduce New Bosses for Coil Story with different mechanics separate and different from Coil Raid Bosses that will replace the Coil Raid Bosses. That way they can introduce a different version of Coil without needing to nerf current Coil Raid bosses.

For Example, Twintania can be replaced by a new Boss being Crystal Dragon (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C...al_Fantasy_VI)) along with having new mechanics unique to Crystal Dragon.

Of course the only Story based boss in Coil storyline now is Nael but his/her story boss can be changed to fighting Nael Deus Darnus in his/her human form instead of his/her Bahamut Avatar form. This would change the Nael Deus Darnus fight and mechanic to be more similar to 1.0 version of the fight with a few things adjusted to suit 2.0 mechanics without needing to recreate and nerf the Coil Raid version of the fight.

As for rewards for Coil Story Mode, I have no idea what they can do with that. Maybe introduce some basic dungeon level gears called Lesser Allagan "Gears" and Tomes.

There really isn't much story in coil its mainly there to be the end game raid to fight bosses and get loot.

I don't see why they couldn't add a Trial/Story Coil with the same mechanics but very significantly eased so that players can go in and learn/practice each phase and get the relevant story bits. Obviously it wouldn't have any drops but it would give players a learning environment without the pressure of a lockout or having to clear so their party can get a reward - once they've learnt the phases they can attempt it with the "bumper bars" removed (Regular Coil). It makes the raid easier to learn and it would allow experienced players to teach without sacrificing loot or their lockout.

Echo obviously doesn't fix the problem - learning the mechanics in a forgiving environment would.

Edit: I'd also like to point out how little Coil does to teach players relevant mechanics before they reach a boss encounter.

Why does the game layer all your learning into one intense and apparently confusing encounter? Sure it'd be a bit spoon fed for advanced players if they had smaller encounters teaching mechanics before the boss - but it doesn't exactly hurt them to have mechanics explained practically - it'd even give you a chance to find out what mechanics might be an issue for certain people when you finally do encounter them on the boss fight.

Honestly 2nd coil isn't even that hard you don't even need good gear for it. Some people in my FC got bored and leveled alts, geared up in i90 with hunts. My friend plays whm didn't even have swift cast killed t9 same week he got 50 and won the HA weapon see his profile http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/8655360/ Proof that you can go in take 1 hour do 6-9 with ilvl 90 gear even. People just need to play more skillfully.

^^ Goes to show what I've said all along... the hardest part of FFXIV's endgame is finding other people to learn WITH you. Otherwise, you get stuck in the endless loop of always having to train people to deal with mechanics in the first stages of the fights, and you never actually get anywhere yourself.

I struggled for months with Turn 5. But as soon as I found a group of people who stuck with it for a couple nights, I won without any problems.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

There really isn't much story in coil its mainly there to be the end game raid to fight bosses and get loot.

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Only if you skip or ignore the cutscenes. The entire story of Binding Coil is to explain what happened to Bahamut after end of the era trailer, what happened to Louisoix, and to also explain how Bahamut returns in FF14ARR which once he has returned Bahamut will serve as a Major Antagonist in FF14ARR once again.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Edit: I'd also like to point out how little Coil does to teach players relevant mechanics before they reach a boss encounter.

Why does the game layer all your learning into one intense and apparently confusing encounter? Sure it'd be a bit spoon fed for advanced players if they had smaller encounters teaching mechanics before the boss - but it doesn't exactly hurt them to have mechanics explained practically - it'd even give you a chance to find out what mechanics might be an issue for certain people when you finally do encounter them on the boss fight.

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Actually almost all of the original mechanics are demonstrated and learnt outside of coil.

But the idea of BCoB is going in without knowing a single thing.


If you knew what to do, what mechanics were coming up and how to deal with them, people would be walking out of the end-boss Day One/Two.

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Originally Posted by Kaelah

Some of us have kids and jobs and don't have more than say an hour a day to play.

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This is when I look at these people and say.

If you can't do the content you don't get the reward (Story included) the developers and game shouldn't need to bend over backwards to please people who don't even have the time to play it. There is plenty of content outside of coil for people with very little or sporadic scheduels unable to group up and defeat content.

Hell I'm one of them I haven't beat coil turn 5 and I'm not upset that I haven't seen the story content because I haven't beat it.

May as well just put the cutscenes into your inn room without even needing to clear the content why make a entire new dungeon for it?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

This is when I look at these people and say.

If you can't do the content you don't get the reward (Story included) the developers and game shouldn't need to bend over backwards to please people who don't even have the time to play it. There is plenty of content outside of coil for people with very little or sporadic scheduels unable to group up and defeat content.

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The first thing I noticed about the poster you quoted is the fact that she has the gridania GC elite headgear. I don't know if she has more of those pieces but those things are hunt exclusives (not to mention the sand and oils before the 2.38 update). If she really has around 1 hour a day all the time (which I doubt), the head gear alone would have taken many days to get since I doubt that 1 hour window somehow always coincides with a dozen A rank spawn times or even S rank.

Not sure if 'not enough time' reasoning to ask for a bigger nerf on a nerfed content is justified if people choose to spend what little play time they have to get glamour items over personal progression.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

This is when I look at these people and say.

If you can't do the content you don't get the reward (Story included) the developers and game shouldn't need to bend over backwards to please people who don't even have the time to play it. There is plenty of content outside of coil for people with very little or sporadic schedules unable to group up and defeat content.

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Regardless, they are a reality in the game and we all have to deal with it. If most of the players cannot do Coil, that makes it very inaccessible due to having so few people who either have the time or are willing to dedicate the time to doing it.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Honestly 2nd coil isn't even that hard you don't even need good gear for it. Some people in my FC got bored and leveled alts, geared up in i90 with hunts. My friend plays whm didn't even have swift cast killed t9 same week he got 50 and won the HA weapon see his profile http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/8655360/ Proof that you can go in take 1 hour do 6-9 with ilvl 90 gear even. People just need to play more skillfully.

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Sometimes I really wish people would stop giving this as reasoning. It is not the rationale behind a trial/story version of Coil like the other story trials and primals used to primarily explain the story and lores of FFXIV. Especially for those who did not play the 1.X version, it is even more important information to understand the past events that let to 2.X. It has nothing to do with clearing end game, how easy the end game is yada yada. It is as simple as since it is essential story, unlike side quests like Moogle Delivery and Hildebrand, there should be a story mode/trial, period. Don't tell the players to watch a youtube because you can don't play any of the FF games either, just watch the youtube and treat it like you have played the game.

And since you said coil is so easy, why you only get "In the Bind III" on 25th Sept, and only clear T9 after 2.3? If it was so easy you should have waltz through it in 2.2. I don't want to be an asshole but a lot of these naysayers aren't even the early coil clearer and kept saying how easy coil is and how people who are asking for story mode suck.

BCoB and SCoB, the raid itself while being optional itself, the story isn't because the story is essential information, like I said, is unlike side quests stories like Moogle Delivery. It should have a story version for it just for the story itself.

Nonetheless for all the naysayers, Yoshida already acknowledged the need for this and is already thinking how to implement this for all the 3 coil stories combined. He said this during the TGS 14 live letter.

Yeah, I second Ooshima. If a boss fight can wipe a group multiple times before the group in question can pull together to defeat it, that is not an easy fight. That is what a hard fight is... something that kills you repeatedly until you get it right. Anyone who says the current raid content in a game designed to be a significant challenge to mainstream gamers is "easy" is engaging in semantic BS.