Pld buff or War nerf in 1.22?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN7dYDYfvVg

Make swords more damaging.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Stacking BLMs is happening because the developers did not learn that huge burst damage, regardless of what limitations you want to put on a class, will always trump DoT. Sure, some may think that a BLM should always be burst damage, but I'm more of the mind that I'd rather see more frequent spell casting and less damage per spell to bring things down to par. BLM trumps others between that burst damage as well as having the advantage of range.
Depends on how far we go with it. If we separate the DPS aspect from the tank aspect, that's not exactly a nerf.

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It doesn't have to be a nerf, your absolutely right, rampage == reduced attack + increased defense, berserk == work how it should and you have a hot swappable tank/dd but not both at the same time.
Yeah I've always been of the mind that mages were OP'd, I mostly keep my mouth shut though, it's enough to get all the hate posts for saying WAR is OP'd lol

The rest is merely ranting:
On the mage front though, yeah I was just running w/ a thm friend while leveling war we're equal level, his gear is gimp mine isn't. His dmg vs. mine:
Nuke 700 against ele weak mobs(4 of them)
Me 1 mob at a time 80~90 AA so 8~10 AAs to match 1 nuke @ ~4secs delay == 32~40 seconds to deal what he did in 3
Me 1 mob at a time again WSs, we'll say for arguments that I don't miss and have 3k tp. 125~175/hit, 3~4 WSs w/ 2 secs animation takes me 6~8 seconds to match his single 3 second attack.
But he did it to 4 mobs, which means that in all those cases I need 4x as long to match his single attack spell. That's not OP'd at all, I think they should give mages better dmg output w/ more HP so that we can just stack 8x WHM/BLM for everything, all these other jobs aren't really useful ...

Sorry I went kind of sideways there. Yeah things remain unbalanced, but they're working to fix it, hopefully someday it occurs to someone that spreading dmg over an area should also reduce that dmg by an amount equivalent to the area affected. If I throw a water balloon holding 1 gallon of water and hit 1 person they get hit w/ 1 gallon. If I take that same 1 gallon and put it in a pail and just splash people in an area with that gallon, unless something really extraordinary happens not 1 person will get hit with a full gallon.

Damn that was more sideways.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN7dYDYfvVg

Make swords more damaging.

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Actually the base damage of the Swords probably could use an overall buff, I can understand Swords needing to be weaker than other weapons in order to make up for the speed but let me put it this way.

Lowest DMG Ifrit Weapon- Ifrit's Blade= 102 DMG
2nd Ifrits Weapon- Ifrit't Claws= 131
3rd- Ifrit's Harpoon = 151
4th- Ifrit's Bow/Cobalt Arrow = 158
5th- Ifrit's Axe = 171

Seriously 29 base damage difference from the Ifrit's Blade to the next weakest Ifrit's weapon. MNK can get away with being 20 points lower than the Harpoon because it has Elemental Fists, attacks 2-3x a around, and a slightly faster speed than 2h weapons as a way to cover ground.

PLD doesn't have the advantage MNK does however, and weapon speed doesn't make up for the lower Base Damage gap especially when my PLD's hitting Ifrit for 10 and WSing for 100-200 damage, but DRG's, WARs, and BRD's are hitting 25-40 a hit throwing out 300-1k Weaponskills. The Enmity Adjustment is only a temporary band-aid, and falls short the longer fights drag on.

I might be sounding a bit selfish saying this, but there SHOULD NOT be more than 50DMG difference between the lowest and highest DMG weapons of similar types (IE:Ifrit's Blade should be a minimum of 121DMG which is within 50 of Ifrit's Axe 171DMG). I say this because, with this current trend with weapons PLD will only suffer more and more when/if the level cap ever rises, because that gap will continue to grow and grow.

If you would like an example of how this may turn out on the current trend, I point you in the direction of FFXI. Post Lv75 where Base weapon damage from 2h Weapons eclipses 1h weapons so significantly, 1h jobs have no place in a majority of endgame content without a secondary quirk like Treasure Hunter.

EDIT: Sorry got ranty. XD Should have been in PLD forums.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Yeah I've always been of the mind that mages were OP'd, I mostly keep my mouth shut though, it's enough to get all the hate posts for saying WAR is OP'd lol

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Yeah things remain unbalanced, but they're working to fix it, hopefully someday it occurs to someone that spreading dmg over an area should also reduce that dmg by an amount equivalent to the area affected.

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Nerfing AoE won't change the fact that even single target BLM is pretty powerful because of high spell damage, which justifies stacking BLMs even more because you can do large amounts of damage over a short period of time. Sure, the glass cannon paradigm exists, but it doesn't pan out in games with multiple classes that are vying for the same role. AKA here. Stacking BLMs shouldn't be the answer to everything. Just like Stacking WARs shouldn't be the answer to everything.

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I might be sounding a bit selfish saying this, but there SHOULD NOT be more than 50DMG difference between the lowest and highest DMG weapons of similar types (IE:Ifrit's Blade should be a minimum of 121DMG which is within 50 of Ifrit's Axe 171DMG). I say this because, with this current trend with weapons PLD will only suffer more and more when/if the level cap ever rises, because that gap will continue to grow and grow.

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I'm not saying it's Matsui....but it's Matsui. j/k (or am I?)

Seriously, someone they brought over from FFXI has a thing against swords. Swords were among the weakest weapons in that game, and now lo' and behold, they are the weakest weapon here. I don't think it's a coincidence, either. Anyway, yes, swords could use a bump in weapon damage.

At the end of the day... the only fix needed is for PLD to be able to generate more enmity than WAR, but not through dealing more damage (That would make them pretty much the same class), that way the DDs in the party can make up for the PLD doing less damage because they can, in turn, do more Damage since PLD would be able to generate more enmity

However PLD is made to generate more enmity than WAR, there are a ton of ways to make it happen.

But that way... if it is a fight where enmity is not an issue... then people will choose WAR..... If it is a fight where DDs have to hold back and go red a lot, then people will choose PLD... and Voila! they are both useful

An added bonus would be to make PLD have the best chance of surviving as the tank of many boss fights...
Not necessary, but I'd like it

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Originally Posted by Rydin

However PLD is made to generate more enmity than WAR, there are a ton of ways to make it happen.

But that way... if it is a fight where enmity is not an issue... then people will choose WAR..... If it is a fight where DDs have to hold back and go red a lot, then people will choose PLD... and Voila! they are both useful

An added bonus would be to make PLD have the best chance of surviving as the tank of many boss fights...
Not necessary, but I'd like it

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All this does is bring back "fodder tank vs boss tank", which is just as bad as WAR being picked over PLD for the tank role.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

All this does is bring back "fodder tank vs boss tank", which is just as bad as WAR being picked over PLD for the tank role.

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No... it would depend on the boss....

Like in a fight with an NM that has ultra high (Physical and Magic) defense, you'd want a WAR because the DD's are probably not going to have to worry about pulling hate since their DPS will be lower

But in a fight where the DD's are holding back or going red, You'll want a PLD for the extra enmity.. which gives the DDs extra breathing room

So both would still be viable in both fights... one would just excel more than the other depending on the situation....

There is no other scenario where both are viable....

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Originally Posted by Rydin

No... it would depend on the boss....

Like in a fight with an NM that has ultra high (Physical and Magic) defense, you'd want a WAR because the DD's are probably not going to have to worry about pulling hate since their DPS will be lower

But in a fight where the DD's are holding back or going red, You'll want a PLD for the extra enmity.. which gives the DDs extra breathing room

So both would still be viable in both fights... one would just excel more than the other depending on the situation....

There is no other scenario where both are viable....

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That's actually where problem lies, the base damage of our weapons affect our damage output affecting, our enmity generation (especially with Fast>Flatblade) as a whole very significantly. If my PLD is only doing a 100 damage 2 step combo with a 4.6x enmity boost do you think it would hold out long against a DDs who's doing 3 step combos for 3x-4x our damage each WS.

Yes we got spike hate abilities like Wardrum, Flash, Rampart, and Voke to help close that hate gap, and other jobs have enmity reducing abilities to help make it manageable, but those recast timers catch up to us eventually causing problems.

But another issue arises altogether, they can give us all the enmity boosts they want but once that hate cap is reached your doing little more than taking the blows for the group. Which is fine and all, but if you can't generate more hate, and your not really doing a fraction of the damage the DD's are, everyone else can easily catch up and cap hate then things get messy. So the mob isn't dead, hate is bouncing around, and your not even taking blows what else is there for you to do really? At least with a little damage boost to our weapons it would help with enmity generation, make our damage at least a little less pathetic, contribute more to taking out the mob before hate cap is reached, and help avoid such a scenario when/if they give us that challenging content people have been begging for.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

But another issue arises altogether, they can give us all the enmity boosts they want but once that hate cap is reached your doing little more than taking the blows for the group. Which is fine and all, but if you can't generate more hate, and your not really doing a fraction of the damage the DD's are, everyone else can easily catch up and cap hate then things get messy.

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Wait, wait, wait. XIV also suffers from enmity cap?

I was under the impression that they had learned that capping hate/threat/enmity is a stupid idea because your dynamics go out the window once the cap is hit, and had thus favored a system where enmity decays at a set rate for DPS and a slower rate for tank classes.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

That's actually where problem lies, the base damage of our weapons affect our damage output affecting, our enmity generation (especially with Fast>Flatblade) as a whole very significantly. If my PLD is only doing a 100 damage 2 step combo with a 4.6x enmity boost do you think it would hold out long against a DDs who's doing 3 step combos for 3x-4x our damage each WS.

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thats why PLD need more enmity generation than WAR, but not from damage

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Yes we got spike hate abilities like Wardrum, Flash, Rampart, and Voke to help close that hate gap, and other jobs have enmity reducing abilities to help make it manageable, but those recast timers catch up to us eventually causing problems.

But another issue arises altogether, they can give us all the enmity boosts they want but once that hate cap is reached your doing little more than taking the blows for the group. Which is fine and all, but if you can't generate more hate, and your not really doing a fraction of the damage the DD's are, everyone else can easily catch up and cap hate then things get messy. So the mob isn't dead, hate is bouncing around, and your not even taking blows what else is there for you to do really? At least with a little damage boost to our weapons it would help with enmity generation, make our damage at least a little less pathetic, contribute more to taking out the mob before hate cap is reached, and help avoid such a scenario when/if they give us that challenging content people have been begging for.

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In a normal party setting, how often is the hate cap reached? I'd vote to remove the cap.... but even with it in, it's a theoretical limitation

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Originally Posted by Rydin

In a normal party setting, how often is the hate cap reached? I'd vote to remove the cap, but even with it in, it's a theoretical limitation

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It was also theoretical in FFXI, and you saw how that turned out...

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Actually the base damage of the Swords probably could use an overall buff, I can understand Swords needing to be weaker than other weapons in order to make up for the speed but let me put it this way.

Lowest DMG Ifrit Weapon- Ifrit's Blade= 102 DMG
2nd Ifrits Weapon- Ifrit't Claws= 131
3rd- Ifrit's Harpoon = 151
4th- Ifrit's Bow/Cobalt Arrow = 158
5th- Ifrit's Axe = 171

Seriously 29 base damage difference from the Ifrit's Blade to the next weakest Ifrit's weapon. MNK can get away with being 20 points lower than the Harpoon because it has Elemental Fists, attacks 2-3x a around, and a slightly faster speed than 2h weapons as a way to cover ground.

PLD doesn't have the advantage MNK does however, and weapon speed doesn't make up for the lower Base Damage gap especially when my PLD's hitting Ifrit for 10 and WSing for 100-200 damage, but DRG's, WARs, and BRD's are hitting 25-40 a hit throwing out 300-1k Weaponskills. The Enmity Adjustment is only a temporary band-aid, and falls short the longer fights drag on.

I might be sounding a bit selfish saying this, but there SHOULD NOT be more than 50DMG difference between the lowest and highest DMG weapons of similar types (IE:Ifrit's Blade should be a minimum of 121DMG which is within 50 of Ifrit's Axe 171DMG). I say this because, with this current trend with weapons PLD will only suffer more and more when/if the level cap ever rises, because that gap will continue to grow and grow.

If you would like an example of how this may turn out on the current trend, I point you in the direction of FFXI. Post Lv75 where Base weapon damage from 2h Weapons eclipses 1h weapons so significantly, 1h jobs have no place in a majority of endgame content without a secondary quirk like Treasure Hunter.

EDIT: Sorry got ranty. XD Should have been in PLD forums.

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yeah but the DPS is pretty similar issue is how hard combos hit, they cant increase the base damage because then AA would be doing way to much damage with those attack speeds. If they wanted to raise PLD damage they would need to add a damage modifier to weapon skills for PLD or they can leave it alone and just add a modifier to enmity generated for PLD since PLD isn't supposed to dish out a lot of damage anyways.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Wait, wait, wait. XIV also suffers from enmity cap?

I was under the impression that they had learned that capping hate/threat/enmity is a stupid idea because your dynamics go out the window once the cap is hit, and had thus favored a system where enmity decays at a set rate for DPS and a slower rate for tank classes.

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Yes there is one, I don't remember where the link is posted but I think Kaeko tested it. Thus far it hasn't been a major issue with reaching the hate cap mostly because there hasn't been very challenging content that lasts long enough to reach it. And I agree, it was a stupid limitation. Looking towards the future however, that same limitation will probably haunt us like in FFXI when/if the cap is raised or challenging content arises where reaching that cap becomes more obtainable, and even more so if they follow the current weapons trend and let PLD's DPS Enmity generation fall to the point it can't even keep hate. (Despite what people believe a good chunk of PLD's Enmity generation does come from DPS.)

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Yes there is one, I don't remember where the link is posted but I think Kaeko tested it. Thus far it hasn't been a major issue with reaching the hate cap mostly because there hasn't been very challenging content that lasts long enough to reach it. And I agree, it was a stupid limitation. Looking towards the future however, that same limitation will probably haunt us like in FFXI when/if the cap is raised or challenging content arises where reaching that cap becomes more obtainable, and even more so if they follow the current weapons trend and let PLD's DPS Enmity generation fall to the point it can't even keep hate. (Despite what people believe a good chunk of PLD's Enmity generation does come from DPS.)

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Its a retarded amount of enmity though... like 27k or something

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Yes there is one, I don't remember where the link is posted but I think Kaeko tested it. Thus far it hasn't been a major issue with reaching the hate cap mostly because there hasn't been very challenging content that lasts long enough to reach it. And I agree, it was a stupid limitation. Looking towards the future however, that same limitation will probably haunt us like in FFXI when/if the cap is raised or challenging content arises where reaching that cap becomes more obtainable, and even more so if they follow the current weapons trend and let PLD's DPS Enmity generation fall to the point it can't even keep hate. (Despite what people believe a good chunk of PLD's Enmity generation does come from DPS.)

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Raising the cap only prolongs the problem, not actually solve it. XI's issue was that people started reaching the cap and PLD became insta-useless because of it. Most people who don't understand how tanks work asked for extra enmity abilities. I was asking for a new enmity system altogether because capped enmity does not work.

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Its a retarded amount of enmity though... like 27k or something

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Again, prolongs the problem. Remember that numbers are much bigger in XIV. 27K may be a lot now, but two or three expansions from now, we may be seeing PLDs hurting -again-.

Anyhoo, has anyone made a thread about it? I'm sure I'm not the only one concerned about the implications and problems brought by an enmity cap.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Its a retarded amount of enmity though... like 27k or something

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That's not unobtainable by a long shot. Voke and Flash both give around 500 spike Enmity each every 30 seconds, Holy Succor can heal around 1k adding potentially 1500 Enmity, then theres Rampart, Wardrum, Flatblade Combo, Spirits Combo, Cure, and Sentinel, overall it would probably take PLD or WAR about five to ten minutes give or take to reach that cap. Then you can't generate any more hate and it becomes a waiting game for another player to reach it (WHM most likely) or the monster to die.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Anyhoo, has anyone made a thread about it? I'm sure I'm not the only one concerned about the implications and problems brought by an enmity cap.

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Nothing specifically attuned to it aside from asking for more Enmity generation. I have brought up the subject of increased damage on weapons before however, because like I said a significant chunk of our enmity generation is from our DPS and once enmity is capped there is little more for a PLD to do except contribute what laughable damage it can to the group besides assisting with heals.

EDIT: Besides even with an additional 20 base damage were talking jobs that are designed for DD who still have significant damage boosting abilities, higher base DMG, and/or attack multiple times in a round. PLD doesn't get those advantages, PLD would only get to throw out a slightly more damaging combos that might only amount to half of a regular DPS jobs damage will be but help him stay on course with hate early in the fight, and be a bit more beneficial later in the fight.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

That's not unobtainable by a long shot. Voke and Flash both give around 500 spike Enmity each every 30 seconds, Holy Succor can heal around 1k adding potentially 1500 Enmity, then theres Rampart, Wardrum, Flatblade Combo, Spirits Combo, Cure, and Sentinel, overall it would probably take PLD or WAR about five to ten minutes give or take to reach that cap. Then you can't generate any more hate and it becomes a waiting game for another player to reach it or the monster to die.

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First and foremost... healed HP is not a 1 to 1 ratio with damage
a 1k heal only grants around 700 points of enmity

Also... the cap is not a straight cap... it is the difference between the highest and lowest person, in terms of enmity

which means the PLD would be capped at 27k enmity of another person in the party had zero enmity....

It would be really TOUGH to get 27k more enmity than the lowest person in the party...

Unless....

If the Tank has 30K enmity, the best DD has 28k... and the lowest person has 16k, you are fine..... but if that person with 16k enmity dies... their hate is reset
So now both the highest DD and the tank are at 27k enmity.... which means the DD could easily pull hate

That's the biggest problem I can see with the enmity cap

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Originally Posted by Rydin

First and foremost, healed HP is not a 1 to 1 ratio with damage. a 1k heal only grants around 700 points of enmity.

Also, the cap is not a straight cap. it is the difference between the highest and lowest person in terms of enmity.

which means the PLD would be capped at 27k enmity of another person in the party had zero enmity.

It would be really TOUGH to get 27k more enmity than the lowest person in the party.

Unless.

If the Tank has 30K enmity, the best DD has 28k and the lowest person has 16k, you are fine, but if that person with 16k enmity dies, their hate is reset
So now both the highest DD and the tank are at 27k enmity, which means the DD could easily pull hate

That's the biggest problem I can see with the enmity cap

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The problem with accumulated amounts of any sort is that if there is a cap in place you're bound to hit it and then your tank becomes useless. I don't know why the devs here have a fixation with cumulative enmity and enmity caps when it was proven to not work in the long run.

I can admit that games without threat/hate/enmity caps work the way they do because in the event damage scales up (like what happened in FFXI post-abyssea), you can give the tanks a threat/hate/enmity modifier for that level bracket and continue as usual (largely because threat/hate/enmity decays over time instead of having something like XI had with volatile and cumulative enmity). You can't do that when there's a cap involved because all it does is make you hit that cap faster.

Enmity should decay over a certain period of time, so the tanks and DPS have to focus on gaining threat or pacing themselves respectively. Aggro-dump abilities exist for the events where damage and enmity generated by DPS outpace the decay rate and come close to overcoming the tank's own enmity generation. As damage scales, so does the enmity generated by the tanks.

PS: As much as I don't mind editing people's posts, kindly stop abusing elipses, please. >.>

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Wait, wait, wait. XIV also suffers from enmity cap?

I was under the impression that they had learned that capping hate/threat/enmity is a stupid idea because your dynamics go out the window once the cap is hit, and had thus favored a system where enmity decays at a set rate for DPS and a slower rate for tank classes.

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Depending on the rates of decay hitting and staying at that soft cap, what ever the real number is since unless SE decides to offer up all their equations we'll always be working with somewhat arbitrary values. Say 100/sec decay on DDs and 50/sec on PLD and Tanking WAR(Rampage Up Only), in the 30 seconds it takes between vokes they lose 1500 enmity between vokes. So even with wardrum flash voke @500 each they only maintain you at your DPS levels, since DDs aren't intentionally generating any hate but instead doing things to shed hate their 100/sec is plenty to allow a WAR to easily maintain his hate, never hitting the cap in a short~med length fight 5~15 mins. A pld tho after 1 min has only barely gained an extra voke or 2's hate because his DPS is so low and even w/ +enmity WSs giving 5x normal they're only getting ~1 vokes worth, where a skull sunder would get a WAR 3+ Vokes worth. That's the real argument imo for upping PLDs dmg, not to mention that gla/pld gets crazy boring solo 5 mins to kill a lvl52 mob, yeah you'll never die but come on.
If a sword had the same dmg value as mnk fists it would still be way under the DPS curve since mnk AA is 2/3 hits in ~the same delay as sword. It would however make a gla/plds WSs come up substantially still wouldn't match a pug/mnk or any other DD since they have no DMG boosters as PLD.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The problem with accumulated amounts of any sort is that if there is a cap in place you're bound to hit it and then your tank becomes useless. I don't know why the devs here have a fixation with cumulative enmity and enmity caps when it was proven to not work in the long run.

I can admit that games without threat/hate/enmity caps work the way they do because in the event damage scales up (like what happened in FFXI post-abyssea), you can give the tanks a threat/hate/enmity modifier for that level bracket and continue as usual (largely because threat/hate/enmity decays over time instead of having something like XI had with volatile and cumulative enmity). You can't do that when there's a cap involved because all it does is make you hit that cap faster.

Enmity should decay over a certain period of time, so the tanks and DPS have to focus on gaining threat or pacing themselves respectively. Aggro-dump abilities exist for the events where damage and enmity generated by DPS outpace the decay rate and come close to overcoming the tank's own enmity generation. As damage scales, so does the enmity generated by the tanks.

PS: As much as I don't mind editing people's posts, kindly stop abusing elipses, please. >.>

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what... ever... do... you... mean?

Train of thought for the win

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Originally Posted by Rydin

thats why PLD need more enmity generation than WAR, but not from damage



In a normal party setting, how often is the hate cap reached? I'd vote to remove the cap.... but even with it in, it's a theoretical limitation

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there is no cap if i remember the battle plans.

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Originally Posted by Firon

there is no cap if i remember the battle plans.

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Now I can't find the test, but if someone else can... link it please

I know I saw the test where the max enmity possible was 27,000 units of enmity higher than the lowest person on the enmity list

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Originally Posted by Dzian

typical paladin using af about ~3400hp typical war using af ~4200hp. surrrrreee the gear has an impact but thats the typical gear people wear on there jobs. so it matters.

on a totally physical immune (which doesnt exist yet) mob how can a pld hold hate significantly over a war. and lets go one step further and say both jobs in the same gear as thats what you seem to do with your hp comparrisons to. put them both in a full set of standard sentinals/cobalt for example

instantly in your effort to lessen the hp gap you've killed a plds cover and outmanouver isn't going to get you that much mp which is going to really impact your healing. and your hate moves consist of sentinal rampart flash voke with physical immunity your spirits within flat blade wardrum and shield bash are all effectively useless (not sure if wardrum generates a static emnity value regardless of damage) your only mp regen is outmanouver which isn't suffiecient enough to make it spammable.

a war same gear as the pld above. has sentinal rampart flash voke antagonise and collusion. with a hint of second wind (really minor but its there)
so yeah he can sentinal vokes and flash, antagonise vokes and flashes thus able to generate more emnity from those alone. he has his rampart. (now before you say plds rampart is enhanced we are talking about your idea of a physically immune mob which typically means the dd are going to be mages and stood nowhere near the tank) and a war has vengance which although the damage reflection part would be useless would still give hive a 50% mitigation. add that to collusioning a blm on his nukes (same physical immune boss) and it seems that the potential emnity generation is not significantly different after all.

so i think that in a totally physically immune boss fight (which doesn't exist yet) a warrior could tank with maybe 90% of a paladins efficiency. but as soon as you can attribute physical damage to the equation that warrior is going to simply going to shoot miles ahead. but sure pld is a bit better in stuff that doesnt exist yet.

to go back to baatral. a warrior can tank him while everyone else smashes the first wave of skeles. by which time hes got enough hate that everyone else can pretty much go all out and drop him so fast the next waves of skeles can be totally ignored. you cant do that with a pld. which ultimately means war has greater survivability. if its dead before it can hurt you you dont need healing kinda philosophy

Edit:- I will just say I am not a war fanboy. pld is my favorite class. and i'm looking forward to 1.22b with great anticipation

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/face palm , dude, you keep setting yourself up for failer... is this troll bait? bahh, to at least keep anyone from taking your post seriously I will respond, but not because I think your argument holds any water with anyone who actually knows wtf they are talking about...

Lets start at the top... typical gear people wear?... Ok anytime a PLD is tanking anything in AF gear and seems to be doing horably , that is usally a new pld or an old pld with a realy bad idea of how to stack stats for the job. Secondly that HP bonus you mention is , even with my high def /vit set up , a grand total of two hits from Ifrit , with no rage. Not much of a bonus. DEF/VIT if you want to deflect damage. All Im gona say.

Second Paragraph, if you put a war in standard Cobalt plate or sentinal gear you are going to do HORABLE DAMAGE in comparison to your AF, just stay in your AF much better off that way if your tanking on WAR, HOWEVER as to your challange. again your gona do shit for damage in tank gear on WAR and even if you could land hits it will be much harder for you to sustain the same amount of hate on your war as you would in AF gear because all those traits you listed only (lol) one is used on its own without party support that is actually strong with WAR , rampart on war gives zero enmity (must land on multiple players in your party the more who get it the stronger the enmity, wich can only be on on GLA/PLD) sent and antagnize may buff the hate you gen from voke and flash but is minimul if the DPS is moderatly good. as far as antaganize, that is your one key ability that will save you from losing hate. BTW using sent as a enmity buffer is kinda retarded, it works but best to use it on a magic attack that hits hard even if all war gets is 20% deflection. Soo to answer your question "how can pld hold hate better then war in that situation?" LOL easly, Rampart actaully works for us, self heals and party heals go a long way (not to mention helps if your party set up has limited healers.) and lets not forget we do get 3 abilities with to spam voke. I never use vokes on WAR but would assume the cool down for flash on war is a bit longer then 30 seconds..

3rd paragraph, Closing the HP gap is just one benifit, increasing vit and def is another, and all those empty materia slots are just begging to be filled with good stats like def, vit, mind, enmity+ ect ect. Effectivly increasing these stats greatly reduces the number of heals you need and thus makes the very small amount of MP you would get from the AF top peice seem worthless in comparison. as far as our abilities doing no damage and getting no hate.. will have to double check that one but pretty sure the damage delt dose not effect the static enmity in generates. there are stats that effect the amount of damage each of those combos do but not sure about the relationship between damage delt and enmity generation on those combos. Either way PLD is way better suited to keep hate on physicaly resistant mobs.

fourth paragraph , yeah vengance is awsome except you actaully have to take damage to make it work, not sure how taking damage is ever a good think when tanking. When possable you want to NOT take damage , or maybe thats just me, oh and vengince dose not generat enmity , fyi. I agree collusion is kick ass , but it has a long cool down and requires some cordination with the dps , assuming the attack lands and is not resisted , that is the only fail safe for war. but your talking hate from 1 our of 5-6 DDs , not gona be enough to sustain hate controll without help from the DD side.

fith paragraph , to sum it all up you said " so I think" thats where you went wrong. Where I agree that when capable of dealing physical damage, WAR has quite an edge on hate grab , HOWEVER the more you gear it to survive the more you lessen hate controll, self heals, and overall DPS. All 3 main reasons why people tank with war.

lastly "If its dead before it can hurt you kinda philosophy" ohh you mean like those lvl 35 NMs or HNMs or pretty much all these jokes of boss fights/dungeons we have now? Yeah , props to WAR for being able to take down weak boss mobs in a tank positon. Again nothing given to us as end game content has truly test the ability of a tank to survive. More like tests for the DPS to see who can deal more damage faster. Proof of this is when THM and WHM tank boss mobs...

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Second Paragraph, if you put a war in standard Cobalt plate or sentinal gear you are going to do HORABLE DAMAGE in comparison to your AF

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Originally Posted by Dzian

on a totally physical immune (which doesnt exist yet) mob how can a pld hold hate significantly over a war.?

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did you read that. you talk of a physically resistant mob so gimping physical damage isn't an issue. i took your example and put it on a level playing field by putting both classes in same gear. if your then saying a pld can tank if he spends millions on materia but a warrior can tank and does not need to spend millions. does that not indicate a problem. a great expense to make apld work.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

rampart on war gives zero enmity (must land on multiple players in your party the more who get it the stronger the enmity, wich can only be on on GLA/PLD)

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Soo to answer your question "how can pld hold hate better then war in that situation?" LOL easly, Rampart actaully works for us,

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and in your case of a phyically immune mob example when ar ethe dd going to be close to you. if everyone is (over there) standing at a safe distance, which given phyical immunity or resistance as you said one would then assume any dd is going to be black mages then rampart is going to do fk all for you.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

yeah vengance is awsome except you actaully have to take damage to make it work, not sure how taking damage is ever a good think when tanking. When possable you want to NOT take damage , or maybe thats just me, oh and vengince dose not generat enmity.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

and a war has vengance which although the damage reflection part would be useless would still give him a 50% mitigation

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said nothing about emnity there. i mentioned it purely for the damage reduction which aids survivability. if you dont want to take damage you really shouldn't be a tank. a tank is basically the one screaming at the mobs "come on! hit me with all you got!!"

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

HNMs or pretty much all these jokes of boss fights/dungeons we have now? Yeah , props to WAR for being able to take down weak boss mobs in a tank positon. Again nothing given to us as end game content has truly test the ability of a tank to survive. More like tests for the DPS to see who can deal more damage faster. Proof of this is when THM and WHM tank boss mobs...

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that right there is why stacking def fails. i'm just glad you said it yourself.

so in summary you made an example of physical resistance which doesn't exist yet where a pld may shine and every arguement you make against my thoughts is in some relation to phyical dd output which by point of your own example is irellivent. no melee dds = no super rampart and no melee dps = no arguement against not using warrior af.
Other than that you haven't offered any answer to my question of how a pld can hold hate significantly over a war. the only answers you have given are both wrong in your own theoretical situation of physical immune bosses

and boosting your gear with def vit etc etc doesnt really do a huge deal because like you said thm and whm can tank boss mobs. warrior and whm both take very similar damage from helfire for example.

one final thing. i dont care if i set myself up to fail or get /facepalmed. if somehow as a result of this thread or many others like it i learn that magical piece of information that makes my paladin super duper awesome then it will be worth a hundred /facepalms.

ooooo you just got told son

Damn only can like once

Dzian you left out that Vengeance also feeds WAR DPS on top of it's 50% mitigation.
So yeah you nailed the rest ^^

I just want to play a class where i wont get booted because i'm playing what i want to play and what I play actually does my job. hopefully time i manage a 50 paladin the class will be useful.