"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Except my point isn't picking fights. It's giving advice so that in a 4 person team, there's not only 3 people giving significant contribute.

And like I said, you're only calling it picking a fight because giving advice to underperformers for some deep seated reason bothers you at a fundamental level.

Not to mention that, if the person heeds the advice, not only will you save time in the current run but also any future runs the person runs will be significantly shorter.

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Giving advice in public bother me, because it singles out 1 person in front of the group and picks a fight.

Giving advice in private doesn't bother me, because it's far less likely to make the other person defensive and pick a fight.

Criticizing people in public is bad manners, and bad manners cause issues in groups. If someone in the group is intent on causing issues I'd prefer them gone.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Giving advice in public bother me, because it singles out 1 person in front of the group and picks a fight.

Giving advice in private doesn't bother me, because it's far less likely to make the other person defensive and pick a fight.

Criticizing people in public is bad manners, and bad manners cause issues in groups. If someone in the group is intent on causing issues I'd prefer them gone.

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Criticizing people in public isn't rude or bad manners. The only people claiming so are people who take any advice, criticism or any kind of input as an attack, whether it was given in public or private. Ofc they'd claim it's rude so they avoid having any advice given.

SE's mentor system hinges on players giving advice to players during duties (independently of how the playerbase misuses the system). Nothing in there says "give advice only in private, because it's rude otherwise"

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Criticizing people in public isn't rude or bad manners. The only people claiming so are people who take any advice, criticism or any kind of input as an attack, whether it was given in public or private. Ofc they'd claim it's rude so they avoid having any advice given.

SE's mentor system hinges on players giving advice to players during duties (independently of how the playerbase misuses the system). Nothing in there says "give advice only in private, because it's rude otherwise"

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No, criticizing people in public is bad manners, period.

I mean, it's one thing for you all to be like this in a game, but I really hope you're not doing this kind of thing to people at work or in real life social situations. I'm starting to think the reason there's so many communication issues in this game is that a lot of you honestly have no earthly clue how to interact with people.

Edit: Mentoring is a different situation entirely. If you're positioned as a teacher in what's positioned as a classroom then it's socially acceptable to offer criticism without much formality, in your defined role as teacher.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

No, criticizing people in public is bad manners, period.

I mean, it's one thing for you all to be like this in a game, but I really hope you're not doing this kind of thing to people at work or in real life social situations. I'm starting to think the reason there's so many communication issues in this game is that a lot of you honestly have no earthly clue how to interact with people.

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No, criticizing people in public is only claimed as rude by the people receiving criticism. Because obviously they want to avoid being criticized any way they can. Antisocial people don't get to claim the rules of communication.

There's so much communications issues in this game because people don't want to communicate and any attempt at it is considered a personal attack. Pretty much what you're advocating here.

Communicating doesn't mean "agreeing with everything I do and say and don't ever criticize me".

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

No, criticizing people in public is only claimed as rude by the people receiving criticism. Because obviously they want to avoid being criticized any way they can. Antisocial people don't get to claim the rules of communication.

There's so much communications issues in this game because people don't want to communicate and any attempt at it is considered a personal attack. Pretty much what you're advocating here.

Communicating doesn't mean "agreeing with everything I do and say and don't ever criticize me".

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You can criticize; either privately or as a mentor if you want to teach in an official capacity.

The problem is that you criticize people in a rude way and expect a positive response. Put in the effort to be polite and things might turn out different for you.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

The content is easy and you clear fast 99% of the time

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I'm quite certain you and I have wildly different opinions of a 'fast' clear. Because unless the dungeon is sub-13 minutes I don't consider that 'fast' at all, and to clear *most* dungeons in that time frame you have to have all party members involved doing relatively good amounts of damage.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

I'm quite certain you and I have wildly different opinions of a 'fast' clear. Because unless the dungeon is sub-13 minutes I don't consider that 'fast' at all, and to clear *most* dungeons in that time frame you have to have all party members involved doing relatively good amounts of damage.

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Most runs clear fast enough. If it's looking like the run may take 15-20 minutes then just start arguing with the healer who isn't DPSing. That'll speed things up. ;)

Still at it, huh. Proud of you.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Most runs clear fast enough. If it's looking like the run may take 15-20 minutes then just start arguing with the healer who isn't DPSing. That'll speed things up. ;)

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If you're a healer at level 80 and you still don't use your damage spells then I frankly don't care if it makes the run take longer, you need to be set straight because that's just downright unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

You can criticize; either privately or as a mentor if you want to teach in an official capacity.

The problem is that you criticize people in a rude way and expect a positive response. Put in the effort to be polite and things might turn out different for you.

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False. You can give feedback to a player that may be struggling to grasp their class in a dungeon without it coming off as rude. It's not rude to try and help people. There's no bad manners about it. I ask my groups if there's anything I can do to improve at the end of a dungeon. Sometimes they leave complements, constructive feedback, or just say nothing at all! We as players shouldn't be afraid of constructive criticism. If it's mindless name calling? Sure, that's rude and bad manners. But to simply offer some advice that could be helpful? I find it helpful. I found out many neat tips from other players because they felt like sharing.

In regards to critique, criticism, and advice:

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

...It actually does fall into the category of criticism. Not all criticism is offered with bad intentions or an accusatory tone, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rude to do it in public.

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Then you say:

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Critique isn't the same as criticism. Critique can be outlining a positive, whereas criticism is always outlining a negative. Advice is always outlining a negative, so it's criticism. There's no different ways to interpret it, so no matter how hard you try to play at semantics it won't work.

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So consider exactly what you just stated now vs what you initially stated:

Critique can be outlining a positive (but may also outline negatives as part of the nature of a critique is to review and analyze both successes and failures), where a criticism is always outlining a negative. This would entail that all criticisms can fall under critiques, but not all critiques can be a criticism. Which if you noticed what I quoted you from above, is the inverse of what you previously stated - all Critiques are part of criticisms, but not all criticisms are part of critiques.

The nature of a critique is that you will be looking for areas of improvement or faults, where you have failed and succeeded. To give feedback. This would mean, tacitly, that to tell someone "Good Job!" on a clear, that you are critiquing their performance (even if it is positive), which under your initial statement, is a criticism and therefore "...doesnt change the fact that it's rude to do it in public".

Im being specific about this because I want to stop you from flopping about on criticism, critique, and advice and stick to one single position regarding it. So yes, semantics matter here.

Either way, you dug yourself into a hole. Youre subjectively qualifying what is an acceptable critique vs what isnt based on what you perceive as a positive - which can vary from person to person, or you maintain that all critiques are criticisms and therefore no nos. Either way, you run the risk of offending and being rude to the recipient. Even if you said "Good Job!" on a clear, they can take that as "Good Job? I sucked. Stop patronizing me." or "Good Job? What about all those other times?" or "Good Job? I did excellent. Stop putting me down."

In all cases, even your best efforts to not offend and mean well have been interpreted as negative results. Because you cant control what other people think. Even if it is ridiculous

For all your best efforts to avoid offence, you cannot in any way, shape, or form guarantee that you will. Which makes the whole idea of "Oh, its polite to not say anything in front of others if you have criticisms/critiques/advice/etc." moot because the foundation of your point is that you are trying to spare embarrassment, feelings, drama, or etc, but since you cant control this, and other factors are to be considered (like how your fellow players feel, or promoting bad play, or seeing the opportunity for a teaching moment in a co-op environment, or treating your fellow player like a mature adult, or making sure the run goes relatively smooth and not waste time,).

No one is suggesting being an ass. That obviously doesnt work.

What is being suggested that rather than being overly polite, making a ton of assumptions, and deciding discourse based on what someone else feels, to just speak politely but freely in the moment. Because it matters to everyone involved. You think someone may feel bitter for throwing out a suggestion or advice, think how bitter tehyre gonna feel when they wipe the group cause something they did wrong and no one bothered to say a thing up til then.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

No, criticizing people in public is bad manners, period.

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I find it laughable that you're calling communication in a mmo bad manners.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Mentoring is a different situation entirely. If you're positioned as a teacher in what's positioned as a classroom then it's socially acceptable to offer criticism without much formality, in your defined role as teacher.

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Lmao as if the burger king hat is an indicator of someone being able to "teach." You know why a good chunk of people choose to be a mentor? To get access to the roulette for the free mount eventually.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Criticizing people in public isn't rude or bad manners. The only people claiming so are people who take any advice, criticism or any kind of input as an attack, whether it was given in public or private. Ofc they'd claim it's rude so they avoid having any advice given.

SE's mentor system hinges on players giving advice to players during duties (independently of how the playerbase misuses the system). Nothing in there says "give advice only in private, because it's rude otherwise"

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In theory, yes, a respected, respectful person giving good advice in public is fine when they've been chosen for that role through a long path of education and training, which includes sensitivity. But even teachers, the people most qualified to give good advice, don't read out people's assignments in front of the class while pointing out every flaw, and when they do go over problems in assignments most of the time it's anonymously.

Problem is, the 'good' players in MMOs are neither qualified or chosen to give good advice. It's unwelcome advice to begin with, and it's almost always given in the worst way possible. Half the time it doesn't have anything of value and is just meant to insult or shift the blame, it's generally just a way for people to point a finger at someone and say 'that guy is the reason we are failing'. The reason players tend to look so negatively at people giving 'criticism' in games is experience; players in this thread can try all they want to portray those that give 'advice' in game to the bads as saints, but the reality is in game it's rarely done in a way that's even remotely pleasant, and it even more rarely actually contains useful advice.

I'm not going to say it can never happen- but rudely given criticism or straight out player bashing is so common in multi player games that I can't really fault anyone who thinks the norm of bad faith 'advice' is the norm- because it's the norm.

If you have a common problem of giving 'criticism' but not realizing that you're coming off as rude, chances are pretty good that you're regularly offering useless advice in a rude manner. It's sadly the norm for poor social skills to think that your way of communicating with others is the right way when you're pissing everyone off. Communication isn't a one way street, but the person giving 'advice' seems to always think that it is in MMOs. Keep in mind when you call someone out for doing something wrong, or failing in some way- you're doing it for yourself to let off steam, not to actually help the other person- and it's obvious, and that is part of why people can't stand you when you do it.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

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Advice is criticism; I'm not flopping between them, I'm simply using the words interchangeably because they are interchangeable. Both are outlining negative performance, and it's inconsiderate criticize a negative in public. A critique in public could be inconsiderate if the critique is negative; but the rule is to address positives in public and negatives in private. That's the etiquette that's generally expected when working with other people.

You not being able to control what people think doesn't matter. What you're basically saying is that people can interpret anything in any way, so etiquette doesn't exist. That's ridiculous; the fact that people can still take offense at a more polite approach doesn't negate the value or purpose of being polite.

As for believing it can be better to be rude than to be quiet in some situations, that obviously depends. If it's critical then courtesy may need to take a backseat to urgency; if the healers not healing or the tank isn't in tank stance then say something. If you want to note that someone's not playing optimally, or is being lazy, in a non-urgent context, though, then address it in private. Simple stuff.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

I find it laughable that you're calling communication in a mmo bad manners.



Lmao as if the burger king hat is an indicator of someone being able to "teach." You know why a good chunk of people choose to be a mentor? To get access to the roulette for the free mount eventually.

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I don't call all communication in MMO's bad mannered; just the bad mannered stuff.

Also, the hat doesn't indicate someone is qualified to teach, it just indicates that they've been assigned as a teacher. When you've been assigned to be a teacher then you have authority to teach; which changes the social etiquette of delivering criticism.

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

False. You can give feedback to a player that may be struggling to grasp their class in a dungeon without it coming off as rude. It's not rude to try and help people. There's no bad manners about it. I ask my groups if there's anything I can do to improve at the end of a dungeon. Sometimes they leave complements, constructive feedback, or just say nothing at all! We as players shouldn't be afraid of constructive criticism. If it's mindless name calling? Sure, that's rude and bad manners. But to simply offer some advice that could be helpful? I find it helpful. I found out many neat tips from other players because they felt like sharing.

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Things that aren't intended to be rude can still be rude.

If i were to walk up to you and your friends and publicly offer you some polite advice to help with your bedwetting problem, that would be rude of me. You address problems with people in private; that's basic social etiquette.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

Problem is, the 'good' players in MMOs are not qualified to give good advice.

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You're joking, right? You have to be joking because this is the single funniest thing I've ever heard in regards to this game.

When you guys do any physical activity, like sports or going to the gym, do you view others (who aren't professionals or trainers) that see you struggling/using equipment improperly and subsequently offering advice as being condescending and rude?
It's unsolicited, public, and by your definitions is rude, patronizing, and is actually an attempt to shame you in front of others. But have you ever considered it may come from a genuine place of concern or understanding and desire to see you do better and not

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just meant to insult or shift the blame...generally just a way for people to point a finger at someone and say 'that guy is the reason we are failing'

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Originally Posted by Darsien

The fact that you equate bedwetting to being told you're playing a video game wrong is extremely telling. They are on different levels. It's not black and white. Anyone who continues arguing with Goji is as big a muffin as he is.

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They may be on different levels of rude, but both are still rude. Airing peoples problems in public is rude, whether it's a small one or a big one.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

When you guys do any physical activity, like sports or going to the gym, do you view others (who aren't professionals or trainers) that see you struggling/using equipment improperly and subsequently offering advice as being condescending and rude?
It's unsolicited, public, and by your definitions is rude, patronizing, and is actually an attempt to shame you in front of others. But have you ever considered it may come from a genuine place of concern or understanding and desire to see you do better and not

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If you have some advice for someone at the gym pull them aside, or say it quietly just to them. Yes, it's absolutely rude to announce what someone is doing wrong in front of the entire establishment. lol, what's wrong with you people.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

When you guys do any physical activity, like sports or going to the gym, do you view others (who aren't professionals or trainers) that see you struggling/using equipment improperly and subsequently offering advice as being condescending and rude?
It's unsolicited, public, and by your definitions is rude, patronizing, and is actually an attempt to shame you in front of others. But have you ever considered it may come from a genuine place of concern or understanding and desire to see you do better and not

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Sometimes the 'advice' given isn't done in a very tactful way. Sometimes when someone sees you using equipment wrong they laugh and just call you an idiot, or go, "you know you're using that wrong, right?" but don't actually help.

I wish people would realize that the 'advice' given by players in this game isn't always friendly or actually helpful at all. Rude people do exist and often seem more plentiful because they're louder. If something comes from a "genuine place of concern" or whatever, they would actually be nice about it. If you have to tell yourself that maybe they mean well besides being a huge jerk, the problem lies with the advice-giver, not the receiver.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Sometimes the 'advice' given isn't done in a very tactful way. Sometimes when someone sees you using equipment wrong they laugh and just call you an idiot, or go, "you know you're using that wrong, right?" but don't actually help.

I wish people would realize that the 'advice' given by players in this game isn't always friendly or actually helpful at all. Rude people do exist and often seem more plentiful because they're louder. If something comes from a "genuine place of concern" or whatever, they would actually be nice about it. If you have to tell yourself that maybe they mean well besides being a huge jerk, the problem lies with the advice-giver, not the receiver.

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We have acknowledged that already in this conversation, but we've been met with the idea that any unsolicited advice is negative as it's airing something negative to the public. Of course rude or empty statements like those you listed are pointless and/or offensive but it's generally not what we're talking about. Even friendly, tact, or brief advice is being seen as hostile or treated as if it belies some sort of underhanded remark, even if it's made in the utmost sincerity. And that's an issue.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

You're joking, right? You have to be joking because this is the single funniest thing I've ever heard in regards to this game.

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Being good at something doesn't qualify you to tell others how to be good at it, knowing how to convert your experience into advice that can assist others is a skill itself. And it's one that most players giving 'advice' in pugs are glaringly without.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

Being good at something doesn't qualify you to tell others how to be good at it, knowing how to convert your experience into advice that can assist others is a skill itself. And it's one that most players giving 'advice' in pugs are glaringly without.

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Earlier today someone posted about a SMN not using any AoEs, and generally just spamming nothing but Ruin III in Qitana Ravel (they're level 78). If I, as a decent player, point out that they should be using AoEs on trash pulls and putting DoTs on the boss (in a respectful manner) have I wronged this player?

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Originally Posted by Shalan

Earlier today someone posted about a SMN not using any AoEs, and generally just spamming nothing but Ruin III in Qitana Ravel (they're level 78). If I, as a decent player, point out that they should be using AoEs on trash pulls and putting DoTs on the boss (in a respectful manner) have I wronged this player?

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It's definitely rude to do it in front of the group, but that's not to say being rude is never excusable. On a case by case basis you decide whether the situation warrants a tactless approach.

The fact that it's rude is just something to keep in mind, so you don't do it frivolously. Criticizing someone in front of the group for something petty or trivial is kind of ridiculous, even if you word it nicely. It kind of surprises me that you people don't understand why casual players sometimes snap at you for doing it.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

Being good at something doesn't qualify you to tell others how to be good at it, knowing how to convert your experience into advice that can assist others is a skill itself. And it's one that most players giving 'advice' in pugs are glaringly without.

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This, exactly.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's definitely rude to do it in front of the group, but that's not to say being rude is never excusable. On a case by case basis you decide whether the situation warrants a tactless approach.

The fact that it's rude is just something to keep in mind, so you don't do it frivolously. Criticizing someone in front of the group for something petty or trivial is kind of ridiculous, even if you word it nicely. It kind of surprises me that you people don't understand why casual players sometimes snap at you for doing it.

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So rather than give advice in the moment and hopefully change the action to ensure a smoother run, I should with hold the advice till we're out of the dungeon (who knows how long that'll take when we're essentially short a DPS), try to /whisper them, and hope they take the advice for a future run as a general rule?

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Originally Posted by Shalan

So rather than give advice in the moment and hopefully change the action to ensure a smoother run, I should with hold the advice till we're out of the dungeon (who knows how long that'll take when we're essentially short a DPS), try to /whisper them, and hope they take the advice for a future run as a general rule?

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He's currently giving unsolicited advice in front of everyone, so he's being quite rude. Telling you not to tell people they made a mistake, how dare he!

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Originally Posted by Shalan

So rather than give advice in the moment and hopefully change the action to ensure a smoother run, I should with hold the advice till we're out of the dungeon (who knows how long that'll take when we're essentially short a DPS), try to /whisper them, and hope they take the advice for a future run as a general rule?

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Like I said, read the situation and decide for yourself if a tactless approach is worth it. All I'm saying is don't convince yourself it's a polite thing to do and start picking people apart in front of groups over trivial crap, even if you word it nicely.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

He's currently giving unsolicited advice in front of everyone, so he's being quite rude. Telling you not to tell people they made a mistake, how dare he!

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Actually, I wasn't addressing anyone specifically when I gave my opinions on giving advice. People started engaging with me of their own free will on this issue, thereby soliciting more opinion and elaboration from me.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Making extreme or outright nonsensical comparisons like this is not only disingenuous but shows you have no worthwhile argument to make. A proper comparison would be say, offering advice to someone in a random pickup game of Basketball if they clearly aren't playing well. You might never see this person again but in that moment their performance directly impacts your chances of winning. Therefore, it's in yours and their best interest to improve. Even if the advise offered is unsolicited. If they dismissed you and continued playing the way they wanted, no one would bat an eyelash if they were then "kicked" off the team.

But you didn't use that comparison because ruins your argument.

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That example doesn't ruin anything. Why would you do that in front of everyone instead of pulling the person aside? This example only proves that you're not grasping this at all.

I think the only way you'd all be capable of grasping this is with crystal clear examples; so the example I gave was excessively and obviously rude. Your examples are rude to a lesser extent, but still very much bad mannered behavior.

And I'm out of posts... ;)

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

Being good at something doesn't qualify you to tell others how to be good at it, knowing how to convert your experience into advice that can assist others is a skill itself. And it's one that most players giving 'advice' in pugs are glaringly without.

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If you're good at something then it's not a gigantic leap in logic to be able to tell someone else how to be good at it too.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If i were to walk up to you and your friends and publicly offer you some polite advice to help with your bedwetting problem, that would be rude of me. You address problems with people in private; that's basic social etiquette.

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Making extreme or outright nonsensical comparisons like this is not only disingenuous but shows you have no worthwhile argument to make. A proper comparison would be say, offering advice to someone in a random pickup game of Basketball if they clearly aren't playing well. You might never see this person again but in that moment their performance directly impacts your chances of winning. Therefore, it's in yours and their best interest to improve. Even if the advise offered is unsolicited. If they dismissed you and continued playing the way they wanted, no one would bat an eyelash if they were then "kicked" off the team.

But you didn't use that comparison because ruins your argument.

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

I remember one time back in Stormblood when running expert, I got a tank that refused to take any feedback. As a tank main, it's the one thing I know I'm decent at. I ran healer on this particular rub and I noticed that the DRK was losing aggro to dps with tank stance on, so I decided to watch his pulls. He was only using unleash one time. So I said "Hey, I just noticed the dps hit pretty hard so you may want to use unleash a few more times on your pull to generate aggro." And the response I got was "Just stop. I know what I'm doing. I'm level 70." It was then I realized there was no helping this person so I quietly finished the dungeon and left. People are so against getting advice these days that it drives me insane. I love getting feedback on my performance so I know what to improve on. I don't get why so many others don't.

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That is an unfortunate situation, but is it really fair to color your impression of a community filled with millions of people by your interaction with one stubborn player. Maybe it's not "people" who are so against getting advice these days, maybe it's just that player in particular.

Also, much of the discussion that have been made in here relates to the sort of player who even, for example, as a level 80 WHM never use Dia or Glare or a level 80 Warrior never use Overpower or Mythril Tempest or like that in comparable level content, but I have to ask: are the numbers of people doing such a thing such a huge one that this become such a hotbed discussion? People who *really* never use Dia or Glare as a WHM during dungeon contents or raids or whatever?

Because honestly? I've never encountered even one of those players--even if I do, it's such a non-event thing that I could not even remember. Sure, some players are doing their healer/tank/dps better than the other, but I honestly probably can count in my left/right hand fingers the amount of time I would consider people playing the content together with me are just full of sheer incompetence--certainly not enough for me to consider that "most players in this game is inept/foolish/inexperienced" or anything like that.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

If you're good at something then it's not a gigantic leap in logic to be able to tell someone else how to be good at it too.

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Except there's a much larger leap between being able to "tell someone else how to be good at it too" and actually teaching someone. I had teachers in school that were god awful at actually explaining things to us. I remember struggling with math in grade 9 because I just didn't get the way the teacher was explaining how to do it (didn't help that I also suck at math anyway, but...). Then I asked my sister who was two years older than me how to do it, and she explained it better and I was able to understand.

Knowing something doesn't make you qualified to be able to teach others on it. The fact that threads like this keep getting traction is at least somewhat proof of that. There's a lot more to teaching than "I know this, and I'm now telling you how to do it."

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Except there's a much larger leap between being able to "tell someone else how to be good at it too" and actually teaching someone. I had teachers in school that were god awful at actually explaining things to us. I remember struggling with math in grade 9 because I just didn't get the way the teacher was explaining how to do it (didn't help that I also suck at math anyway, but...). Then I asked my sister who was two years older than me how to do it, and she explained it better and I was able to understand.

Knowing something doesn't make you qualified to be able to teach others on it. The fact that threads like this keep getting traction is at least somewhat proof of that. There's a lot more to teaching than "I know this, and I'm now telling you how to do it."

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You don't have to be a licensed professor to explain how to do a single ability rotation or how to use an oGCD or two in this game.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

You don't have to be a licensed professor to explain how to do a single ability rotation or how to use an oGCD or two in this game.

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It's not really about how, it's about the why, and motivating them to care about that.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It's not really about how, it's about the why, and motivating them to care about that.

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If someone is determined to not care and to be a detriment to the party you can't change that. On the flip side, that doesn't mean you can't still try to give them advice to try and help them improve.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

You don't have to be a licensed professor to explain how to do a single ability rotation or how to use an oGCD or two in this game.

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No, but like a licensed professor, just because you understand a fact doesn't mean you are automatically able to explain it in a way that the other person will understand.

It isn't a reason to not try with good intentions, but there's more to successful communication than just knowing the fact to be communicated.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

You don't have to be a licensed professor to explain how to do a single ability rotation or how to use an oGCD or two in this game.

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Did you read literally any of what I typed, or what. I even said that I learned better from my sister than I did from my teacher because of how she explained it. That specific teacher was actually very mean and patronizing, whereas my sister was patient and considerate. Weird that one actually taught me something and the other just made me upset and also didn't teach me anything. Wonder what the difference is.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It's not really about how, it's about the why, and motivating them to care about that.

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It's this, in case you were expecting me to outline it for you in more detail. Pretty simple concept.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Did you read literally any of what I typed, or what. I even said that I learned better from my sister than I did from my teacher because of how she explained it. That specific teacher was actually very mean and patronizing, whereas my sister was patient and considerate. Weird that one actually taught me something and the other just made me upset and also didn't teach me anything. Wonder what the difference is.

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Your anecdote doesn't represent the pugs on DF who choose to be ignorant/lazy. Not to mention, the average player just want to finish their dailies in a timely manner rather than continue to stay in the duty to explain how to use the skills your hotbar.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

Your anecdote doesn't represent the pugs on DF who choose to be ignorant/lazy. Not to mention, the average player just want to finish their dailies in a timely manner rather than continue to stay in the duty to explain how to use the skills your hotbar.

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Most anecdotes don't cover every single possible outcome, but it doesn't make what I said any less true when it comes to people who may be receptive to advice but get talked down to instead. If you're going to take the time to explain something to someone, you can't be rude and expect them to listen.

And most people who post here seem to be very willing to kick people for even the smallest thing, so if the person is being such a nuisance for not listening, just kick for 'difference in playstyle' or whatever defence people use for that. Or leave.

Like, what's your solution for people who don't want to listen even if you're nice? Because saying my story doesn't apply to them doesn't actually solve that issue. You just want me to be wrong instead of coming up with something to fix that scenario.

With the direction the conversation has taken I think it would be good to summarize a few points from what I see as the loose grouping of people on 'my side' as it were. It's by no mean me claiming unilateral endorsement of these ideas from everyone who favors advice and improvement, if I'm misrepresenting anything please call it out, but I'm seeing the same few objections from detractors.

Primarily I see the frequency with which any one player might encounter play poor enough to warrant advice brought up; the "don't let one bad experience color your thoughts on players as a whole" argument. I'd say this misrepresents my own experience at the very least and I see it said specifically in response to anyone bringing up a specific story of a time someone underperformed.

Instances of someone performing badly enough for me to offer advice happen maybe once every day or two, outside of EX+ content. These are usually the gaping holes in competence, things like cure spammers who do no dps and truly freestyle dps or tanks who seem to just be pressing buttons randomly or with no care. My Shield Lob PLD in Copied Factory comes to mind.

To be clear there are many, many more times people are also doing just awfully but there just isn't a chance to actually try to help. The number of times as a tank or healer that I end trial or normal raid roulette above some dps who haven't died... it's really frequent and it shouldn't be. Those instances are too short to generally get out much in the way of help though.

Secondly I see the "rudeness" argument, primarily championed by Goji. While I don't think anything anyone could say would get even close to changing his mind (and clearly people have tried) I would say that intent matters and that it's being entirely dismissed here.

If you speak to someone with the desire to cause them distress and embarrassment that's bad. If you speak to someone with the genuine desire to help and someone gets embarrassed as a consequence you need to weigh whether or not the advice you gave was worth it. I'm not going to nitpick every little bit of someone's play in casual content, if a tank wants to pop CDs as he finishes a big pull rather than waiting for some Holy stun mitigation that isn't the end of the world. If DPS aren't banking resources to destroy big trash pulls and instead popping it all on bosses that's fine, we'll still be moving apace.

The issue needs to be great enough for me to think the potential embarrassment or annoyance (or even maybe being kicked on my part, you never know who's in an oversensitive premade) is worth it on the off chance that the advice penetrates and helps that person do better in the future. This is delicate but I think I'm getting the hang of it.

That kind of touches on the last point that I've seen brought up less frequently but still pops up now and then - the actual standard to be held to in order for advice to make sense to me.

For anyone if there ignoring a big part of their kit I think it's worth pointing out. You never know what button might not have made it onto a hot bar.

For tanks they should be able to hold threat 100% barring a dps getting dumb and bursting on a single mob during a big pull or something. They should be using all their CDs potebtially aside from their immunity because I know getting good use of LD/Holm during dungeons can be weird. AoE on trash, use ST combos on bosses, pull big.

For healers they should be using their ogcd heals frequently and filling in the gaps with the appropriate ST/AoE nuke. Spamming heals on people with full hp or something is bad. They also dont get to stand around doing nothing. I realize sometimes they do this because of MP, those same healers usually have Lucid ready and waiting until they're at like 2k MP. I think I tell more healers about lucid than I do about doing dps.

For dps it can vary but it boils down to AoEing when appropriate and doing enough of what would be their single target rotation to at least keep pace with the tank/healer. If I'm on a support role I should not outdps you, period. Standing in too much bad or, as ranged, being out in the middle of nowhere and thus out of range for heals is also notable.

So there we go. If you think those standards are too high have at it. I am about as immovable as Goji is on this. Clearly my standards for content with enrages are very different but if I meet someone in casual content I'd expect them to be able to do this much and if they can't (and if I'm able to) I'm going to give advice. It isn't rude or toxic, it's trying to get people to be better for both their sake and the sanity of their future parties.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

If you're good at something then it's not a gigantic leap in logic to be able to tell someone else how to be good at it too.

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I've been in numerous server top 5 guilds, and even a top 50 world guild in WoW raiding- playing with excellent players that know their class inside out, the raids inside out and ways to excel, many of whom parse constantly in the 95-99 range. Want to know how most of them give advice to pugs that are bad or trial raiders that mess something up? 'Uninstall and kill yourself'. Toxicity and elitism go hand in hand. There's some of them that can be relied on to explain how to do mechanics or play a class well and give detailed feedback after raids- others that despite being very good generally respond to mistakes with swearing and telling people they suck (albeit in a considerably less pleasant way)- and after saying something like that when the target leaves group or gquits they're always shocked that their polite 'advice' upset the target. In my current guild I've seen at least a dozen decent players leave in the past year solely due to a single mistake that resulted in a stream of 'polite advice' that other members of the guild couldn't believe could offend someone.

And it's the norm in big guilds and top players, it's basically the systemic toxic culture that has become how elitists simply act in video games. Passing off insults, threats and the such as 'polite advice'.

So it actually is a gigantic leap in logic to assume anyone good at the game both can explain within the few minutes of a pug run to someone who they know nothing about how to be better, and that they will do so in a way that's helpful and polite. Perhaps if I hadn't spent over a decade playing MMOs where so called 'helpful advice' is nothing but insults almost all the time, resulting in groups breaking up, players leaving guilds or quickly escalating fights breaking out- I might be inclined to believe the army of good players that claim they only ever give polite constructive criticism. But for every time I've seen someone give good, polite advice in a group, I've seen a hundred players tell someone they suck and to delete their game. That's what makes it such a leap- it's not something backed up by what actually happens in online games.

If you want to give good advice and can do so, by all means go ahead- but if you're in a situation where you're constantly finding players consider you rude, maybe you just aren't as good at giving polite, constructive criticism as you think you are. Or perhaps it's the fact that players can see right through you and that your elitist way of looking down on others makes it very clear you have no intent of actually helping them and use 'polite advice' as an excuse to show your disdain for those you consider sub-par.