So, can we just ban damage meters already.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

uhm no. In optimized play oGCDs are ALWAYS used 1st and only for phases of high movement or wherever burst healing is needed you want to use rapture or solace.
Even tho Misery is strong, it's still a dps loss. (except some very specific padding situations you just mentioned)
In general oGCDs should be favoured over lily usage.

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Afflatus skills are meant to work like oGCD heals. Misery sets each afflatus to be equivalent to a 225 potency dps skill. Which means that using an afflatus skill is the same dps loss as using an oGCD skill. So from the get go no oGCDs aren't always used first since these two can be interchanged. Furthermore, if the WHM needs to use an oGCD in the first place, weaving it into afflatus means that they are being DPS neutral compared to clipping but they get an extra "free" heal to go along with it. Meaning that if you're going to use an ogcd like assize/tetra/asylum/etc.., you might as well carry the healing for that portion with an afflatus skill since there's literally no difference in DPS loss between using the former single heal or the later double heal.
Obviously double weaving into an afflatus skill is a dps gain over clipping. In every case..

Furthermore, the way misery works means that you can turn any DPS neutral scenario into a DPS gain one so long as you 1) hit more than one target, or 2) use misery under any raid buff, or even better during the buff window.

Because of all the above you will prioritize healing with afflatus over your partner's oGCDs the majority of the time. This is even more pronounced when talking about oGCDs that could otherwise be used on energy drain for example.

The caveat is that this only holds true if you use misery in the first place, so afflatus no longer retain their priority if you're nearing the end of the fight and won't get the misery to go along with it.

Afflatus skills would still be used in optimized play even if they didn't do anything other than feed the blood lily, so it's only natural they would be higher priority than other heals.

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Originally Posted by Keddera_StormMoon

Question for the healers above as this is the first time I've dug into my own information (I'm looking to make the leap into harder content soon and join practice groups).

I understand a WHM will likely out DPS me. How much more dps is considered "normal". How far behind is "too much"?

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It always depends on fights, your partner, your party, your gear etc.. Hard to compare two things with so many variables. The easiest answer here is for you to just dps as much as you're comfortable with and then compare your performance to other players on fflogs. From there just try to keep improving your play.

It doesn't matter if you start off grey or green so long as you put some effort into getting better from there you will eventually make it. The first milestone should be to score 50% + putting you in the better half of the player base. Then you can sort out what you want to do from there onward.

If you're concerned with people thinking you aren't DPSing, it's going to be subjective. I think, as SCH, anything under 2k dps will have people thinking you aren't really DPSing. Anything above 3k will just be a case of "is DPSing but needs to get more comfortable/optimize". In between is a blurry area.
The average DPS for SCH in savage is about 5K give or take a few hundred depending on the fight. Keep in mind that this average reflects the state of farming parses more than it does clearing parses (for the most part).

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Originally Posted by Pharone

I absolutely hate damage meters because it takes the fun out of playing the game. Instead of just playing the game and having fun, people are always fixated on the DPS and HPS.

Just play the game, and have fun already.

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This is my thinking. I'm actually all for damage meters in savage content and extreme content. Ya know, content where you absolutely have to know your job inside and out and if you mess up, it could mean a raid wipe. Any kind of high end content I think meters are helpful, and yes, you should call out someone for not doing enough damage when you're playing content like that.

My beef with damage meters is in normal content. Especially a random leveling dungeon you get in DF. That's where meters are used to grief, and you start seeing DPS do stupid stuff, like tunneling on boss fights, running ahead of the tank to YOLO pull packs of mobs and start AoEing wildly so that they can be #1 on the meter. And people getting kicked for crappy damage. In a normal dungeon.

New players are often intimidated and sometimes can get flamed for low damage even though they are just learning. Damage meters were seriously one of the primary reasons the WoW community was so terrible. Square Enix is right to ban them.

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Originally Posted by Lium

This is my thinking. I'm actually all for damage meters in savage content and extreme content. Ya know, content where you absolutely have to know your job inside and out and if you mess up, it could mean a raid wipe. Any kind of high end content I think meters are helpful, and yes, you should call out someone for not doing enough damage when you're playing content like that.

My beef with damage meters is in normal content. Especially a random leveling dungeon you get in DF. That's where meters are used to grief, and you start seeing DPS do stupid stuff, like tunneling on boss fights, running ahead of the tank to YOLO pull packs of mobs and start AoEing wildly so that they can be #1 on the meter. And people getting kicked for crappy damage. In a normal dungeon.

New players are often intimidated and sometimes can get flamed for low damage even though they are just learning. Damage meters were seriously one of the primary reasons the WoW community was so terrible. Square Enix is right to ban them.

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Decent players don't use damage meters in normal content.
You have to be a real special snowflake to hold someone accountable for "low dps" in a normal trial or dungeon.
You can clear those placed blind-folded and still kill everything without trouble.


Damage meters are important in Extreme trials to some extend, and savage raids.
Because there performance matters to simply beat the enrage mechanics of each encounter. You don't have infinite time to kill the boss.
So if you're not producing enough damage (even with everyone alive 100%) you are not going to kill it.
I'm by no means a pro when it comes to playing DPS, but I do try my best to not be a burden to my FC when we raid.
They have no obligation to take me along in savage content with my performance, especially since they already cleared it and pull deep purple to orange numbers.


But you know what?
I'm happy to share my crappy parses with them.
Cause they can point out what I'm doing wrong, and what I need to change.
And over the past weeks I've improved from a measly 7k DPS to a stable 9k DPS by simply listening to their input and practising it.

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Originally Posted by MPK

I don't parse myself, but I'm glad there are people out there that upload parses since I can use websites like xivanalysis that can analyze my logs and give me pointers on how to improve.

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That's an interesting one. Still pretty rough for WHM but interesting.

Don't really get the "weaving" thing it harps on about to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Im largely against parses due to the mentality they create. Tanks and healers judged on their DPS as opposed to how they play their main roles, while people complain dancer is a bad job because parsers dont show the impact that non-damage actions can contribute.

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When the jobs and the content in this game are designed in the way that healing and tanking aren't something that can be considered requiring effort in themselves (the incoming damage is scripted, both tanks and healers have super strong mitigation abilties, and healers are equipped with extremely strong instant heals), and at the same time the endgame content (Savage) cannot be beaten without significant tank and healer DPS contribution, it only makes sense that each party member, tanks and healers included, are judged based on the raid DPS contribution they are able to offer. In the case of tanks and healers, this of course also includes sufficient healing and damage mitigation to ensure everyone can stay alive and keep pushing as much DPS as possible. DPS is also the only element of the raid encounters which can be almost endlessly improved, long after learning to handle the mechanics and being able to beat the enrage timer.

FFlogs which is used alongside parsers is also now based on raid DPS contribution, which means that Dancer DPS numbers and ranks are based on their entire raid contribution, not only their personal DPS.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

That's an interesting one. Still pretty rough for WHM but interesting.

Don't really get the "weaving" thing it harps on about to be honest.

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Probably because you clipped your GCD and that's generally a dps loss. Clipping is pretty much unavoidable this tier for some classes (thanks SE) so yeah it's going to keep reminding us even if you're pretty optimized already.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Probably because you clipped your GCD and that's generally a dps loss. Clipping is pretty much unavoidable this tier for some classes (thanks SE) so yeah it's going to keep reminding us even if you're pretty optimized already.

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No, I mean the concept of clipping a GCD is pretty alien to me.
Are they referring to the animation delay that makes an "instant off GCD" spell not really "instant"?

And if so, are there ways to avoid it? (besides casting sth like assize in the window after a n instant GCD)

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Originally Posted by Granyala

No, I mean the concept of clipping a GCD is pretty alien to me.
Are they referring to the animation delay that makes an "instant off GCD" spell not really "instant"?

And if so, are there ways to avoid it? (besides casting sth like assize in the window after a n instant GCD)

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Yes. If you go Glare -> Instant -> Glare the animation delay of the Instant will delay your next Glare cast. It might be half a second, but doing that many times over an 8 minute fight adds up.

The main way to avoid it is weaving. You can weave with Dia, Swiftcast gcd's, Regen and Lily heals. You can't prevent having a fair bit of clipping as WhM but the more you reduce it the better. Try to take advantage of every weave opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

This thread has many posts discussing how parses can be good for self-improvement ... among numerous posts discussing how you can use parses to judge other people’s performance.

Im largely against parses due to the mentality they create. Tanks and healers judged on their DPS as opposed to how they play their main roles, while people complain dancer is a bad job because parsers dont show the impact that non-damage actions can contribute.

I generally find the negative outweighs the positive

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This is because in EX content & Savage content, healers & tanks both need to pull their weight and deal decent damage for their respective classes.

It is a tanks responsibility to swap, deal with mechanics, and mitigate damage as well as deal a fair amount of damage during EX/Savage content, and it's a healers responsibility to heal, deal with mechanics, and deal damage.

Thanks @Liam_Harper, pretty much as I thought.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

This is because in EX content & Savage content, healers & tanks both need to pull their weight and deal decent damage for their respective classes.

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I thought the encounter design team stated multiple times that healer DPS was not a factor when designing the bosses.
Tanks may be different though, because they are essentially blue DPS with a few extras.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Thanks @Liam_Harper, pretty much as I thought.


I thought the encounter design team stated multiple times that healer DPS was not a factor when designing the bosses.
Tanks may be different though, because they are essentially blue DPS with a few extras.

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It's not possible to clear savage without healer DPS at min ilevel even if everone is doing the most optimized dps

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I thought the encounter design team stated multiple times that healer DPS was not a factor when designing the bosses.
Tanks may be different though, because they are essentially blue DPS with a few extras.

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They did state that healer DPS is not factored into most content, with the main exception being when attempting early clears and not geared at the intended ilvl for the encounter.

That also assumes everyone else is playing at a certain level of play. And let's be honest , not every player is going to be meeting the devs standard so every little bit from the healer helps.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I thought the encounter design team stated multiple times that healer DPS was not a factor when designing the bosses.
Tanks may be different though, because they are essentially blue DPS with a few extras.

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You absolutely need significant healer and tank DPS in order to beat Savage floors, even when your DPS are playing perfectly. You can easily check this by checking the fight DPS requirement and then dividing it between the best DPS and tank players in the world and seeing if that would be enough (it's not). Whatever Yoshi P may have once said in an interview doesn't change the fact.

Edit: And even if it would be possible, it wouldn't be fair to demand 100% perfectly optimised DPS play from your DDs and tanks just so your healers could slack. :D

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Thanks @Liam_Harper, pretty much as I thought.


I thought the encounter design team stated multiple times that healer DPS was not a factor when designing the bosses.
Tanks may be different though, because they are essentially blue DPS with a few extras.

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It is currently not possible to clear E2S, E3S, or E4S without healer DPS.
E1S might be possible (It has a much lower DPS check, under 60k) if your DPS & Tanks are all almost perfect at playing the class they use.

EX content.. I'm not sure, obviously the DPS check is lower then savage tho.

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Im largely against parses due to the mentality they create. Tanks and healers judged on their DPS as opposed to how they play their main roles, while people complain dancer is a bad job because parsers dont show the impact that non-damage actions can contribute.

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14 doesnt work like other games in that regard.

You dont have mostly encounters where healers have to spend 90% of their time healing, or requiring tanks to maximize mitigation. Theres no encounters where you're having non-stop raidwide damage combined with massive tank damage that require dedicated healers using every available gcd and ogcd to keep the raid alive. Theres no fights that require a tank to bunker and sacrifice offensive actions for defensive actions, largely because those dont exist in 14 outside paladin wings.

14's encounters are designed around obviously telegraphed abilities that necessitate one of: 1 button press from your tanks (or maybe 2!), moving out of a GIANT RED THING, or healers to use a healing ability some time in the next little bit before another ae happens. There is minimal tank auto-attack damage, theres a few fights where something is hitting the other tank, and theres a couple fights where you take more than usual splash damage. Outside of those, the only thing you can do as a healer 60-85% of the time is do damage. And if you're not optimizing that time TO do as much damage as possible, you're not doing it right.

Tanking and healing arent roles in 14 as much as they indicate the non-dps abilities you have to press sometimes.

does it suck that its like this? I think so. Does that mean you dont have to play that way? No.

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Originally Posted by Lium

New players are often intimidated and sometimes can get flamed for low damage even though they are just learning. Damage meters were seriously one of the primary reasons the WoW community was so terrible. Square Enix is right to ban them.

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I keep seeing people say this... but they offer no proof that it actually occurs "as often" as they like to claim that it does. My proof is an anecdote, but I've encountered 1 instance of parser shaming in almost 4 years. And it wasn't in a dungeon - it was in Zurvan EX back when that was the relevant EX in HW.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I keep seeing people say this... but they offer no proof that it actually occurs "as often" as they like to claim that it does. My proof is an anecdote, but I've encountered 1 instance of parser shaming in almost 4 years. And it wasn't in a dungeon - it was in Zurvan EX back when that was the relevant EX in HW.

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Im of the same mindset when it comes to the claims. I dont see the proof of it being so widespread. Even more so because I actually have low level alts that I just derp around with cause I like the story and sometimes want to feel that little bit of challange of doing a dungeon fresh with grey gear. In all cases, I havent seen someone flipping their crap in dungeons at new players over damage. Ive seen healers tell DPS or Tanks not to stand in the pancakes, and when they do, they stop healing them. Ive seen DPS get made at healers or Tanks for messing wtih the boss, Ive seen tanks tell DPS to stop being so gung ho and wait for them to get enmity. Seen all that, but havent seen the "Youre doing crappy DPS and you should feel bad" rage outs in DF for dungeons.

When I have seen people talk about damage, its in EX modes and its almost always after someone is being a smartass about something and thinking theyre hot stuff when theyre not. Even then, its a fairly rare occurrence.

As Ive mentioned here or in another thread with a similar issue, the problem is more likely a perception issue. A person does encounter said bad behavior as a one off, and goes to here or Reddit to vent or complain, only to be told by other people who have had similar one offs that its happened to them. They then get the perception that this is a common issue happening to a lot of people all the time, rather than isolated incidents that occur with little to no frequency. People only need to step back and think "How often have I personally seen it and how does that compare to how often I dont see it." and it quickly becomes clear that you probably encounter that level of stupid parser rage once every few hundred or more runs in content.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I keep seeing people say this... but they offer no proof that it actually occurs "as often" as they like to claim that it does. My proof is an anecdote, but I've encountered 1 instance of parser shaming in almost 4 years. And it wasn't in a dungeon - it was in Zurvan EX back when that was the relevant EX in HW.

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I've only seen it happen once as well, and it was a hilarious incident where someone tried to shame me back in ARR for daring to help with rez duties as a SMN. When, you know, half the party was dead and the single healer was struggling during Garuda EX. Other than that? Haven't seen it happen. I have heard my friends comment on people's numbers in passing while in discord with them, but no one actually goes into the chat and shames people.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

They did state that healer DPS is not factored into most content, with the main exception being when attempting early clears and not geared at the intended ilvl for the encounter.
That also assumes everyone else is playing at a certain level of play. And let's be honest , not every player is going to be meeting the devs standard so every little bit from the healer helps.

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Oh absolutely it helps, no argument from me.
I find it odd to read that @ 450ilvl it should be impossible, since that is at or even above the minimum item level stated by the duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

It is currently not possible to clear E2S, E3S, or E4S without healer DPS.
E1S might be possible (It has a much lower DPS check, under 60k) if your DPS & Tanks are all almost perfect at playing the class they use.

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55K for E1s to 71K for E2s if I remember correctly. Indeed my current group is still contemplating how to push that hard but eh mechanics come first, still lots of work to do on that front before worrying about DPS will be an issue. :D

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I keep seeing people say this... but they offer no proof that it actually occurs "as often" as they like to claim that it does. My proof is an anecdote, but I've encountered 1 instance of parser shaming in almost 4 years. And it wasn't in a dungeon - it was in Zurvan EX back when that was the relevant EX in HW.

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5yrs and I've never seen it. I do 90% of my dungeons with randoms.

Then again in 10 years of WoW I only encountered it a handful of times and usually the one doing the dissing got put into his place very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Taika

It's because the content is balanced for a higher item level than minimum requirement (and also to higher item level than what is available for players when the content is released) and even at that higher item level it's designed to require 90% optimal DPS play from DDs and tanks.

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So basically what the duty finder says is completely misleading. Got it.
Makes sense that they balance this way, only way to achieve brutal difficulty for world firsters and maintaining gradual nerfs for latecomers.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I find it odd to read that @ 450ilvl it should be impossible, since that is at or even above the minimum item level stated by the duty finder.

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It's because the content is balanced for a higher item level than minimum requirement (and also to higher item level than what is available for players when the content is released) and even at that higher item level it's designed to require 90% optimal DPS play from DDs and tanks.

Edit: I managed to find the original quote from 2015 (source):

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Originally Posted by Yoshi P

For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Oh absolutely it helps, no argument from me.
I find it odd to read that @ 450ilvl it should be impossible, since that is at or even above the minimum item level stated by the duty finder.



55K for E1s to 71K for E2s if I remember correctly. Indeed my current group is still contemplating how to push that hard but eh mechanics come first, still lots of work to do on that front before worrying about DPS will be an issue. :D

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For savage content, especially as you go deeper and deeper into the tier, healers need to dps no questions asked. Try clearing e4s with healers doing no damage. Unless you have some God tier tanks and dps that are all the absolute best at their jobs, you will wipe every time. Even then, why is it fair for them to bust their butts trying to clear but for healers to only put in less tha 40% effort?

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

They did state that healer DPS is not factored into most content, with the main exception being when attempting early clears and not geared at the intended ilvl for the encounter.

That also assumes everyone else is playing at a certain level of play. And let's be honest , not every player is going to be meeting the devs standard so every little bit from the healer helps.

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Originally Posted by Taika

It's because the content is balanced for a higher item level than minimum requirement (and also to higher item level than what is available for players when the content is released) and even at that higher item level it's designed to require 90% optimal DPS play from DDs and tanks.

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Where's your source on that? Fights should be designed to be cleared at min ilvl not 100 ilevels above.

Yah know, I've done some pretty derpy things (Fire 3 spam anybody) - but the only time I ever had my DPS even pointed out was when I was in Discord with my FC mates. Public groups never said anything about it.

I'm not denying that this type of thing doesn't happen, I just doubt it happens as much as it alleged. And if it happens to certain people a lot, then it makes me wonder exactly what they are doing to begin with....

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Originally Posted by MPK

Where's your source on that? Fights should be designed to be cleared at min ilvl not 100 ilevels above.

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I managed to find the original quote from 2015 (source):

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Originally Posted by Yoshi P

For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I managed to find the original quote from 2015 (source):

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That's literally from 2015. For fights like ultimate there's no way to clear it without healer DPS and you can't outgear that. There's no way it's possible that the min ilevel is not the assumed level

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Originally Posted by MPK

That's literally from 2015. For fights like ultimate there's no way to clear it without healer DPS and you can't outgear that. There's no way it's possible that they intend the min ilevel to not be the assumed level

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Ultimate is a completely different beast from Savage/Extremes—you will not clear Ultimate without your healers dealing damage, and they are balanced quite a bit differently than Savage, if I recall correctly.

That doesn’t change how true the 2015 statement could be about Savage, however; which is what they conversation is about. Not Ultimate.

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Fights should be designed to be cleared at min ilvl not 100 ilevels above.

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They absolutely are not tuned around minimum ilvl.

You couldnt design later savage floors around having minimum ilvl, in fact, as you would be overwhelmingly likely to have multiple savage pieces from earlier tiers by the time you could access them (and they dont scale in terms of min ilvl like that), meaning they would already be undertuned before you could even see the fight for the first time.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I keep seeing people say this... but they offer no proof that it actually occurs "as often" as they like to claim that it does. My proof is an anecdote, but I've encountered 1 instance of parser shaming in almost 4 years. And it wasn't in a dungeon - it was in Zurvan EX back when that was the relevant EX in HW.

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I should have clarified, that was my experience in WoW back when I used to play, where they had damage meters. And yes, on the server I played on back then (Tichondrius) it happened quite a bit.

FFXIV, where they don't have damage meters, it's not that big of an issue. And I'd like to keep it that way.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

They absolutely are not tuned around minimum ilvl.

You couldnt design later savage floors around having minimum ilvl, in fact, as you would be overwhelmingly likely to have multiple savage pieces from earlier tiers by the time you could access them (and they dont scale in terms of min ilvl like that), meaning they would already be undertuned before you could even see the fight for the first time.

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Well then what is the assumed ilevel? There's a reason why min ilevel exists if not they why even bother having something so arbitrary?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

On the other hand, others would like to enjoy their game without having to pick up slack from players that want to be deliberately lazy.



Most people don’t care how others play unless it becomes detrimental or an annoyance to them during cooperative content. Everyone is free to do what they want—but when Billy joins Alliance Roulette and decides to AFK the entire time in Sycrus Tower, the rest of the alliance is allowed to call him out and criticize him for that. As well as dismiss him.

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The example you gave falls under the category of "a time and place for criticism." I'm not saying that you shouldn't call out and kick players who are AFK in group PvP. I'm saying that if Billy queues up for leveling roulette at level 30 and doesn't notice that his auto-gear recommender button threw on cloth pants because his metal pants are still level 10, then maybe you should cut him a little slack as long as bosses are being successfully cleared. If Billy spends half the fight idle or AFK, that's another matter. I haven't ever seen it in this game, but in WoW, I saw many players who would run into low-level instances decked out in heirloom gear (which was far superior to anything available to new players). They would post DPS meters after every fight and whine about how they were carrying the group. I haven't seen that behavior in this game, and I'd like to keep it that way.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Well then what is the assumed ilevel? There's a reason why min ilevel exists if not they why even bother having something so arbitrary?

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I believe the minimum item level is more so a “recommendation” of what would be ideal to have as the absolute minimum going into the content. But I don’t think that the developers use it as a hard-and-fast metric for balance.

I’d wager that the presumed item level for something like E4S would be a few item levels above the minimum i450 required for entry. I don’t know if they’d push it quite to i460...however, it’s possible that they assume that’s around the item level most players would have once they reached the content. Because, let’s face it: not every raider goes for Week 1 clears, when clearing would be the most challenging. And not every player can push the damage required for minimum item level clears.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

The example you gave falls under the category of "a time and place for criticism." I'm not saying that you shouldn't call out and kick players who are AFK in group PvP. I'm saying that if Billy queues up for leveling roulette at level 30 and doesn't notice that his auto-gear recommender button threw on cloth pants because his metal pants are still level 10, then maybe you should cut him a little slack as long as bosses are being successfully cleared.

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While the lower level content has become more and more trivial as the years have passed, I think the undergearing issues you have presented here would also fall under your “a time and place for criticism” criterion. If you enter, for example, Stone Vigil with level 30 DoM pants on your tank because your only other tank-specific pants are level 10, I think it’s warranted that you receive some criticism for that because it’s straight gear neglect. I’m not saying people are allowed to suddenly cuss you out for it, but they are more than within their right to call you out for gear neglect. While I know a lot of people like to use the “but we still cleared” reasoning for defending poor gear, I don’t really like that excuse. Yeah, maybe you did clear: but the healer had to work harder to keep you alive because you neglected your gear.

And Stone Vigil is also one of the ARR dungeons that can’t be entirely facerolled—it still hurts quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

If it was posted in chat, then it was potentially harassment, unintended or not. Why didn't he PM the numbers to the player who asked for them?

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I’m sorry, how it is harassment to tell someone who willingly asked for their numbers their numbers? Please explain your logic here.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

There was actually a thread on here a couple months back about a person who was pulled into GM Gaol and given a temp ban for posting numbers in chat to a player who explicitly asked how they were doing. There was no harassment involved, yet someone still reported them because “omg parser bad”.

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If it was posted in chat, then it was potentially harassment, unintended or not. Why didn't he PM the numbers to the player who asked for them?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You say that, but you've never spent 2 hours wiping in 24 man raids because you get grouped up with a bunch of those people who never bothered to learn mechanics and expect the rest of the group to be able to carry them, or don't understand they are bad cuz people stopped trying to help because of attitudes like yours.

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Why are you even raiding with players like that? Find a good FC and raid with them. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Why are you even raiding with players like that? Find a good FC and raid with them. Problem solved.

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...Valkyrie is talking about 24-man raids. Not 8-man Savage raids. Pardon, but not everyone is in a large FC where they can grab 23 other people to do their weekly 24-man run with, nor should they really be expected to do that. 24-mans are largely done in the Duty Finder in all regions.

People could also just learn how to do the mechanics and not expect to be carried. Novel concept.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m sorry, how it is harassment to tell someone who willingly asked for their numbers their numbers? Please explain your logic here.

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I explicitly said that those numbers should have been communicated to the player who willing asked for their numbers via PM (personal message). The harassment was in broadcasting them to the entire chat. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Eh, not worth it. Person could be baiting plus you will always have those logs if the GM decides to check your history. Just don't post about it AT ALL in-game. Whether you have good intentions or not.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I explicitly said that those numbers should have been communicated to the player who willing asked for their numbers via PM (personal message). The harassment was in broadcasting them to the entire chat. Sorry I wasn't clear.

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Again, how is that harassment? If the person asks for their numbers, they lose the right to be offended by what they see, if I'm being honest. As for PMs, there is no PM system in this game aside from /tell. I think it's important to note that you cannot send cross-server /tells without being on an individual's friend's list first, and this is a relatively new feature. Before, you had to be on the same server as the person to /tell them; even when cross-world PF first became a thing in Patch 3.4.

Sorry, your reasoning still falls flat here, in my opinion. Person A asked for their numbers, and Person A cannot choose to suddenly be offended or "feel harassed" if Person B gives them what they requested. Especially if it wasn't asked to be given to them in a private manner, and these requests generally aren't (in my experience, people tend to say "Was anyone parsing that? How did I do?" - most parties are silent because of what I mentioned in the post you replied to being likely to happen).

The report wasn't likely to have come from the person requesting their numbers, anyways. It was more likely to have come from a Person C, who got up in arms because "omg parser bad" and decided to report despite no actual harassment occurring. There are individuals like that out there.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Eh, not worth it. Person could be baiting plus you will always have those logs if the GM decides to check your history. Just don't post about it AT ALL in-game. Whether you have good intentions or not.

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I agree that it's not worth it to do it at all, but some people think they're being helpful or nice providing what another asked for. I am just disagreeing with Ronduwil's notion that posting requested numbers = harassment. He'd have a case if he were talking about someone who didn't request their performance and was having it posted without their permission, but I don't think he has much of one with regards to someone who explicitly asked "How did I do".

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

...Valkyrie is talking about 24-man raids. Not 8-man Savage raids. Pardon, but not everyone is in a large FC where they can grab 23 other people to do their weekly 24-man run with, nor should they really be expected to do that. 24-mans are largely done in the Duty Finder in all regions.

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Coming from WoW, I find this point of view hilariously refreshing. There are tons of thread wars in WoW over whether 25-man raids should be accessible through the WoW equivalent of duty finder (Raid Finder/LFR). The consensus among the elitists there is that widely accessible 25-man content breeds bad players who get used to being carried and should therefore be limited exclusively to pre-made groups. Personally, I think that raids available through duty finder should have no more than 10 people. Any more than that, and it's tough to maintain accountability. The problem is not that people aren't learning how to do mechanics and expecting to be carried. The problem is that 4% of the players aren't learning the mechanics, and odds are that one of those guys will be in your group every time when you're running with 24 random people.

6 years


We've been having this same exact conversation for near 6 years with no inclination of square wanting to bend a knee for people who get sour experiences because they have (reportable I might add) asshats in their party.

How many more years is this gonna go on before people just give up and realize that SE don't care about them aslong as they're used in their intended manner without harassing people or speaking about it openly, and no constant moaning, lying about data protection (was literally a thing around 2.0) or outright lying/pretending that you can napkin math your DPS + gear variables will change it.