SAM out classing all other DPS

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

That isn't the whole story, and I'm not letting SE off the hook here.
When AST came out, people said it wasn't strong enough and needed a lot of work in some areas (same for MCH, and there was the BRD thing with WM not being worth jack at first, though I don't remember this so well, so grain of salt with this one).

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They tend to wait to change things because it's the right approach, even if they're a bit bullish on their opinion of things (which isn't the right approach). They choose to balance things after the first raid tier for good reasons. They changed AST in 3.1, 3.2, and 3.3, AND 3.4 as well. They never let it sit.

They have been wrong about Job balance before, I think we all can agree. They only overbuff things, however, because people don't react to middling buffs as we saw with AST. And then you get the MCH/BRD counterbalance issue in situations where the buffs might suffice, but you have the DPS jealousy issue. Again, because the community refuses to chill when they think their Job is anything but meta. It won't stop happening, either, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

They tend to wait to change things because it's the right approach, even if they're a bit bullish on their opinion of things (which isn't the right approach). They choose to balance things after the first raid tier for good reasons. They changed AST in 3.1, 3.2, and 3.3, AND 3.4 as well. They never let it sit.

They have been wrong about Job balance before, I think we all can agree. They only overbuff things, however, because people don't react to middling buffs. Again, because the community refuses to chill when they think their Job is anything but meta.

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If the job launches on 3.0 and it's not in a good state and you wait until 3.1 to buff it... people who are learning the new jobs/playing story/progressing into the new raid tier are already invested into something else by the time the buffs start trickling in. You can gather data over a month or two, but you need to strike while the iron is hot. That said, the 3.2 buffs were fairly minimal. Ewer and Spire buffs did not change the fact that they were undesirable cards.

Plus, Gordias was quite unforgiving. I remember that at launch AST had lower potencies than the other two healers. I mean, whomever thought that one out clearly didn't think of AST in a serious raid scenario. Especially when it's "trump card" is so unreliable. They actually kept one of the healers legitimately unviable for a patch- the 3.1 buffs simply made AST usable to begin with. This should've been the starting point... I hope jobs like MCH aren't left in the dumpster for a whole patch :/

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

They actually kept one of the healers legitimately unviable for a patch- the 3.1 buffs simply made AST usable to begin with. This should've been the starting point... I hope jobs like MCH aren't left in the dumpster for a whole patch :/

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Again, they did the right thing by waiting to change things. Changing things mid-patch give certain teams, running certain comps, a better chance at world-first, while inadvertently making it potentially less approachable for those who don't. Not to mention, people who leveled and practiced a specific Job can't test the Job to it's true potential in content that is worth balancing around. Therefore, they'd have no data for the real performance of a Job to say what is capable of clearing all content in the game, or how easy or difficult they might have it.

"Striking while the iron is hot" in this context is no better than knee-jerk reaction 'balancing', and their patch schedule is to blame for any time wasted there, not balancing issues.

This is true for me as well; nin, monk, and rdm have all out dpsed me on occasion. They don't seem weak at all to me, but that's just my personal experience i guess. every other sam must be god tier in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

It would be great if I could see a post criticizing criticism of SAM that isn't from a 70 SAM whining about how their class is going to be nerfed to the ground, followed by some random anecdote of "but SAM doesn't really outdamage that much and I get beaten sometimes," and it's like yes, every gets their DPS beaten. That's what happens when you run into players that are better than you. Please stop stating the obvious. It has nothing to do with class balance. If someone plays a top tier character in a fighting game and loses a lot and/or loses period, it does not magically change that character's tier.

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Except, what he said is relevant unless you assume he is a bad sam player. Is he getting out dpsed because he just isn't a good samurai, or is it because the aforementioned classes might be more competitive than we're letting on.

Wait, who said losing a lot in a fighting game doesn't magically change a tier?

Commonly, the way that fighting game tiers are decided is by the rate at which a skilled player wins or loses vs. a specific character played by another skilled player. That's why the format for listing tiers is usually X character 10 : Y character 0, or Tager vs. Nu 3-10 matchup. Character popularity can skew how that looks as well. If strong players are using the character, it can definitely skew the results. Which is why you can see a pro, or multiple pros using a character and making the consensus that they're "Top Tier" but others can't find the same success. However, it's still a pretty big apples to oranges comparison to this game.

Ultimately, SAM is popular, which surprises no one. It would have been regardless of how powerful it was. And unless we go out and ask every player why they're on the Job, we can't make the assumption it's because it's too powerful and everyone's jumping to it because of that.

SAM,right now,is the "waiting for my main to get proper buffed" job for many main monks and goons.
Me included.

I don't care how much stronger Samurai is or isn't compared to other classes, I just want to enjoy Dragoon again and not feel like a liability to my static.... it's 2.0-2.4 all over again.

From what it looks like right now, SAM and BRD have a gaurenteed spot. What remains to be seen is if 3 SAM 1 BRD will do better than a more varied composition. We may get some add phases where there are like 15 adds at a time or something that may require a caster. Who knows.

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

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BRD/NIN/RDM and either MNK or SAM is what I hear most frequently.

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Mateus

I don't care how much stronger Samurai is or isn't compared to other classes, I just want to enjoy Dragoon again and not feel like a liability to my static.... it's 2.0-2.4 all over again.

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Other than the willfull ignorance about balancing issues, this is what upsets me the most. We've already BEEN here. And I certainly do not recall people being so magnanimous.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...80#post4263080

Just in case you thought SAM was getting nerfed :D

i can't read japanese haha what it say?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

i can't read japanese haha what it say?

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TL;DR from google translate is that SAM is getting adjustments in 4.05 with the release of Omega Savage. Adjustments for other jobs in 4.05 is likely.

Also tanks are getting enmity adjustments in 4.01 (they cite low level duties as an issue for maintaining hate) and they plan to do something about tank damage scaling and the i270 shire/alex jewelry in 4.05.

From an outsider looking in, I can't help but wonder:
If you care enough about min-maxing that you see a 10% difference and think "liability" or "garbage", then why are you not leveling multiple jobs?

There's always a Meta, and that meta changes nearly every time there's a balance patch or new content releases. If you level only one job, then you put yourself at risk of this same situation happening over and over, do you not? And it's not as though leveling multiple jobs is difficult.

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...80#post4263080

Just in case you thought SAM was getting nerfed :D

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It does not bode well that they specifically singled out Samurai in that post.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

It does not bode well that they specifically singled out Samurai in that post.

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"For now, everyone seems to be focusing on SAM damage and is comparing with other dps jobs, for dev teams however, they based the damage on numbers based on soloing enemies, and did not perform adjustments based on aligning with other jobs. Their direction is revealed to be this
Putting out damages without any support (Damage coming out from purely you yourself).
How will it affect you when you do mechanics (With jobs affected easily by mechanics doing high damage, while jobs affected not much by mechanics, doing lower damage)
When in full party, by raising the party member damage through actions, influencing other player member's damage, and its total. Now, with consideration of 3 points above, they have been doing adjustments as much as possible and aligning the jobs together and adjust from there. For example a DRG that in party raises huge damage in party DPS, but when in comes to single performance alone, it's overall damage will deal lower than SAM, while in reverse, since SAM has no party utility to begin with, SAM's single player performance is thus adjusted to be the highest of all. That's the gap they were aiming for. In addition to that, "jobs that affected easily by mechanics, and whether they can attack enemies while in range or not", all those factors mentioned above, are included as well."

Translation of the part singling out SAM.
It was their intent.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

It does not bode well that they specifically singled out Samurai in that post.

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Well, I'm just going to sigh and shrug when the meta once again becomes NIN/DRG. Those two have the strongest raid buffs, and even a tiny nerf to SAM will make them 100% undesirable. I've seen people singling SAM out due to having no utility and avoiding having them in party.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Translation of the part singling out SAM.
It was their intent.

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Of course it was their intent to single it out?
Did I ever imply it wasn't?

The point of this post is lost on me, because it seems you're trying to either make an argument or argue with something that isn't there.

Edit: I get your meaning now, you mean that the "intent" was that SAM does more damage. All this is doing is restating the obvious though, everyone knows SAM was supposed to do more damage. It's the how much more that matters. SE has already stated they're going to make adjustments to damage dealers at 4.05 and that they apparently already have an eye on what to rebalance. So we can only wait and see.

So classes that are affected by mechanics more are supposed to do more dmg? Well Sam doesn't seem bothered too much by mechanics as far as I can tell.
By that logic, Mnk or Blm dps should be a whole lot higher, being the ones most punished by mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Of course it was their intent to single it out?
Did I ever imply it wasn't?

The point of this post is lost on me, because it seems you're trying to either make an argument or argue with something that isn't there.

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"It doesn't bode well that they single SAM out in this post."

Point is, it doesn't mean anything that they were singled out in the post. But if it did, it certainly wouldn't be foreboding anything that you're implying. They don't think they hit the mark 100%, but this is exactly how they want it to be balanced. The degree of which, who knows. It certainly doesn't seem as if they're worried in the way everyone else is though. They make more comments on how 'playable' a Job is, which sounds more like QoL, and slight potency changes to reflect such things, if anything. Which was also reflected in the translation.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

"It doesn't bode well that they single SAM out in this post."

Point is, it doesn't mean anything that they were singled out in the post. But if it did, it certainly wouldn't be foreboding anything that you're implying, which you explicitly do when you say, "It doesn't bode well."

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You can't actually prove it doesn't mean anything, since the post is simply speaking of how they balanced the classes and the logic behind it. Not that "SAM is totally fine and just deal with it guys that's just how things are."

Like I said, we can only wait and see in two weeks when savage drops. Everything else is sheer conjecture or opinion, kind of like my post saying it "doesn't bode well." Am I not entitled to an opinion now?

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Originally Posted by Oscura

You can't actually prove it doesn't mean anything, since the post is simply speaking of how they balanced the classes and the logic behind it. Not that "SAM is totally fine and just deal with it guys that's just how things are."

Like I said, we can only wait and see in two weeks when savage drops. Everything else is sheer conjecture or opinion, kind of like my post saying it "doesn't bode well." Am I not entitled to an opinion now?

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It's all fair game.

It doesn't mean anything. Good or bad, for SAM or any melee. They mentioned their intent when balancing the Jobs, and the intent is for SAM to be ahead. Degrees of which, I'll give you. Otherwise, with their criteria for initial balancing, you can tell what the hierarchy will end up being, more or less. MNK and NIN are the only questions, because if they really are factoring those things together, it makes no sense why NIN would be as high as it is right now. The only thing left is straightening it out so that SAM is the highest, who cares to what extent. That MNK follows. That if DRG is going to be better support than NIN, that it is dead last. Or vice versa. Ideally, damage discrepancy from SAM to the lowest melee being equal to or a pinch higher than the expected rDPS contribution.

Other Job balancing doesn't really matter so much for the melee spot, unless they get this whole MCH/BRD thing going again, and/or they buff Disembowel back to 10%.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

It's all fair game.

It doesn't mean anything. Good or bad, for SAM or any melee. They mentioned their intent when balancing the Jobs, and the intent is for SAM to be ahead. Degrees of which, I'll give you. Otherwise, with their criteria for initial balancing, you can tell what the hierarchy will end up being, more or less. MNK and NIN are the only questions, because if they really are factoring those things together, it makes no sense why NIN would be as high as it is right now. The only thing left is straightening it out so that SAM is the highest, who cares to what extent. That MNK follows. That if DRG is going to be better support than NIN, that it is dead last. Or vice versa.

Other Job balancing doesn't really matter so much for the melee spot, unless they get this whole MCH/BRD thing going again, and/or they buff Disembowel back to 10%.

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I've never been of mind to think SAM would ever not be the top DPS, even in my statement of it not boding well, so I agree with you. (And yes, even after all my posts and arguing here.)

My statement was not reading too into it, just more mentioning that the sheer possibility of normalization and/or the "degree" at which SAM is ahead may be lessened, therefore causing people to exaggerate its "uselessness" in serious content. Whether it be pulled back or other classes pulled ahead. SAM will always be ahead in damage, that much is certain. Though as you have stated yourself, the community in general tends to exaggerate (or rather, worry) so already there's people running rampant with rumors about this.

As for NIN, I have no idea why it's so high, and no idea why SE's balancing team has consistently ignored it for so long. So I also agree with that as well.

People are saying SAM doesn't have utility, they have that slashing debuff. That's more than what us monks had before.

On a side note, monk feels bad to play now. ;w;

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Originally Posted by 0811

People are saying SAM doesn't have utility, they have that slashing debuff. That's more than what us monks had before.

On a side note, monk feels bad to play now. ;w;

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I think the issue with slashing for sam is the same that was with the int debuff previously for monk, where it's not the only job that can do it, thus why it doesn't really get counted.

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Originally Posted by 0811

People are saying SAM doesn't have utility, they have that slashing debuff. That's more than what us monks had before.

On a side note, monk feels bad to play now. ;w;

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It's also a dps loss for the SAM to use any point before roughly 30 seconds, as SAM loses on literal hundreds of points of potency.

You can't call that degree of ham stringing utility.

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Originally Posted by 0811

People are saying SAM doesn't have utility, they have that slashing debuff. That's more than what us monks had before.

On a side note, monk feels bad to play now. ;w;

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Ninja is always in a party and is always going to be using their slashing debuff.

Warrior also has a slashing debuff even if people are saying it's bad now.

There will realistically always be a non-samurai in the party that will give a slashing debuff so honestly I wouldn't call it utility, it just so happens one of its required Sen combos also happens to have a slashing debuff.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Ninja is always in a party and is always going to be using their slashing debuff.

Warrior also has a slashing debuff even if people are saying it's bad now.

There will realistically always be a non-samurai in the party that will give a slashing debuff so honestly I wouldn't call it utility, it just so happens one of its required Sen combos also happens to have a slashing debuff.

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Other classes benefit from it, 2 of which you will always have (tanks). I'd call that utility. It isn't much, but it is a thing.

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Originally Posted by Frowny

Other classes benefit from it, 2 of which you will always have (tanks). I'd call that utility. It isn't much, but it is a thing.

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See my previous post on why this is factually incorrect.

His logic on balancing makes sense.

The problem is, even if two classes put out the same damage- one more personal damage, one based on buffing the group, people will still complain about about the first class dealing more damage because people seem to prefer more personal DPS over buffing other players. It's really all about numbers in the end.

It's why I always wonder what this game would be like with pure DPS roles, who are all about personal damage, and pure Support roles, which are about buffing the DPS to high levels while providing other nice party buffs (I know there's at least one MMO that does this).

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Originally Posted by Oscura

It does not bode well that they specifically singled out Samurai in that post.

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Meaning, Sam won't nerfed, the others will get buffed instead to balance it out.

And looking at Omega normal mode, Blm could use a buff or change too lol.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

His logic on balancing makes sense.

The problem is, even if two classes put out the same damage- one more personal damage, one based on buffing the group, people will still complain about about the first class dealing more damage because people seem to prefer more personal DPS over buffing other players. It's really all about numbers in the end.

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Not really. 3.x MNK proves it. Highest single target dps, highest aoe melee dps, still #deletemnk.

Salt aside my problem with Sam is it their damage, I just wanna see that like any other memes dps bad play is punished with more then just a missed opportunity. As it stands if a bad Sam fucks up they still have enough damage to outshine other class with how high their potencies are. I think this can be adjusted if you increase the kenki generation of abilities but allow it and Sen to fall off over time.

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Originally Posted by Barghest1210

Salt aside my problem with Sam isnt their damage, I just wanna see that like any other melee dps bad play is punished with more then just a missed opportunity. As it stands if a bad Sam fucks up they still have enough damage to outshine other class with how high their potencies are. I think this can be adjusted if you increase the kenki generation of abilities but allow it and Sen to fall off over time.

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damn autocorrect

The latest post by Yoshida-san is enlightening. It is pleasing to read the devs are looking at the utility each damage dealer brings as well as its damage dealing capability as SE makes its adjustments. it makes me want to play both my samurai and my dragoon.

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Originally Posted by Barghest1210

damn autocorrect

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You know you can edit your posts, right? :P

Samurai is meant to be on top of the DPS chart, but seeing how ahead it is, it does exactly what is the on tin. For it to perform 200-300 above the second job, it makes sense. Now you can argue BLM is the same, little utility, but amazing damage, it should be on par with Samurai. However it is a range class that can constantly hit, but it requires deep knowledge of positioning and knowledge.

Do you feel rewarded on pulling off your rotation cleanly?

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

You know you can edit your posts, right? :P

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I'm not on the full site I'm at work on my phone and can't find the edit button :P

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

The latest post by Yoshida-san is enlightening. It is pleasing to read the devs are looking at the utility each damage dealer brings as well as its damage dealing capability as SE makes its adjustments. it makes me want to play both my samurai and my dragoon.

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I feel bad for replying to this, but this exact philosophy is dogshit anyway.

First of all ,why would you just completely change the paradigms of the class every expansion? Is the next expansion gonna have MNK be the 'support melee'? I've never really liked the idea of synergy anyway. When you focus too much on that you get classes that won't be used because their 'partner' is relatively bad so that is 2 classes that lose out (case in point see DRG + BRD/MCH vs SAM/SAM) but this is more of a personal thought rather than an actual argument. My issue is that I choose DRG as my main however I'm not much for support DPS. I could have surmised based on the class skills, but I had no idea of knowing the DRG would be a utility based melee. I honestly think the bulk of the utility should be left for the dexterity classes so it is more straightforward.

Their logic is flawed. As a visual aids I will use generic numbers to highlight what they were supposedly going for (based on the SSS dummies)

SAM - 0 offensive utility - 3850 dps
NIN/MNK - 1 offensive utility - 3625 dps (though in an actual fight, MNK has the edge from brotherhood actually having effect. At the same time trick attack isn't even on the same level as brotherhood, but this just highlights how they didn't think it through)
DRG - 3 offensive utilities - 3400 dps

Now you would look at that, and say based on that alone 'ah that makes sense'. However in a practical application, not only does nobody want to actually play a support dps as a DRG but DRG is plagued with practicality issues atm. Even if what DRG had was indeed sufficient, the class itself has a lower efficiency rating in fights due to how its resources works. So not only are DRGs weak, but they are also inflexible unlike the other dps which are similar to it (BRD/MCH, very flexible) so its more work for similar output to these classes.

Samurai on the other hand is fine. Regardless of how good or bad samurai is it will always be popular due to the nature of the class (weeb/rper/edge lord bait) but I think it could stay as it is.