I chose BRD for swift gameplay, if I wanted to cast I would have chosen a Mage.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

I think you missed the whole explanation in the live letter where they said they will not increase dps without losing mobility. It's called balance. Had nothing to do with the support skills. The support skills just make the job required in raids.

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Ya the new live letter confirmed my suspecion on why Bard had low DPS in the first place.

Bard's mobility gave them a advantage over both Melee and Mage DPS which preventing them from facing any risk their HP with the only thing that can threating them is player error.

To balance their high mobility over the other DPS Job SE lowered Bard's DPS to prevent Bard from becoming the Perfect DPS Job that has no flaws.

Now to give them higher DPS that can get them near or same DPS as the other DPS Jobs they must sacrifice their mobility to balance out their gameplay.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Ya the new live letter confirmed my suspicion on why Bard had low DPS in the first place.

Bard's mobility gave them a advantage over both Melee and Mage DPS which preventing them from facing any risk their HP with the only thing that can threatened them is player error.

To balance their high mobility over the other DPS Job SE lowered Bard's DPS to prevent Bard from becoming the Perfect DPS Job that has no flaws.

Now to give them higher DPS that can get them near or same DPS as the other DPS Jobs they must sacrifice their mobility to balance out their gameplay.

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Basically almost nailed it here. It was also "Bards can attack while moving, therefore they have advantage over handling mechanics as well as the ability to support party members."

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Ya the new live letter confirmed my suspecion on why Bard had low DPS in the first place.

Bard's mobility gave them a advantage over both Melee and Mage DPS which preventing them from facing any risk their HP with the only thing that can threating them is player error.

To balance their high mobility over the other DPS Job SE lowered Bard's DPS to prevent Bard from becoming the Perfect DPS Job that has no flaws.

Now to give them higher DPS that can get them near or same DPS as the other DPS Jobs they must sacrifice their mobility to balance out their gameplay.

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Only the way they fixed it was slapping a skill on top of a skill kit that doesn't work properly with it since the kit wasn't built for cast times.
The idea is not wrong, the execution is.

And to top it off, the stance does not bring the dps on par with the other dps, while it does put the BRD in a spot where they do loose their advantage over the other classes meaning that it should bring them on par with casters if they manage to stay in this stance the whole time.

Now you would argue, "but BRD has utility", however that's when the built in 15% dmg reduction comes in. If bard would use the utility they will end up below the other dps, but if not they should be on par since they don't have the advantages that everyone speaks of anymore.

So yeah, bards still have plenty to complain about. It's not the actual change that's the main issue though and what people seem to misunderstand.
It's the fact that it's implemented so poorly.

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

We're not moving any more/less than we were before, why does everyone think we have less mobility when we don't?

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I guess the ADHD players that ran around all the time just because they could?

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

We're not moving any more/less than we were before, why does everyone think we have less mobility when we don't?

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That's like asking why does BLM have more dmg than the BRD?
They'r not moving any more/less than the a BRD in WM either.

The reasoning behind the lowered dmg from what he was saying was mobility.
Well in WM that reason is gone, so where's the damage?

Let alone that WM actually breaks the flow of OGCD abilities since it does not allow for double weaving.
Compared to a BLM or MCH kit that were made to work with what they have where BLM barely have any OGCD's to watch for and MCH can force instant casts on their abilities to gurantee easy OGCD usage or movement.
The bard has a non stop flow of OGCD abilities which in WM can not be done fluently since it doesn't fit the kit in it's current state.

The big problem here is that all the adjustments they'll eventually make will be around balancing WM when the fact is that WE DON'T WANT TO USE WM AT ALL.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Fun is subjective.

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it is "NOT" applicable here i think because,
i've chosen the class because i like/love to have "fun"(the way it is played) with the class i've chose, this is a decision every player has to make based on the things he likes and therefor chooses the class and later the job that fits his way of "fun", if this is not true then everyone would play the same thing.(or is this wrong?)

i have to say i'm at a loss atm because of this, true my main is a Archer LvL25 but it is "fun" to play and it is the thing i want to play.

this destroys the "fun" i have atm, if i have to relearn everything, or have to play something i don't want to play, but as i said i'm just a LvL 25 Archer so i have to see and try it out because i really "Like" the game.

part two or just more of me :/


and sorry if this is not the right forum thread to ask this, but there seem to be a lot of "Experts" here, or not?
are there any guides i can read up, for better understanding what i have in front of me?(leveling an archer/pugilist to a bard and LvL60)

btw, sorry for my english, and i hope i could explain good enough what i tried to say.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

And to top it off, the stance does not bring the dps on par with the other dps, while it does put the BRD in a spot where they do loose their advantage over the other classes meaning that it should bring them on par with casters if they manage to stay in this stance the whole time.

Now you would argue, "but BRD has utility", however that's when the built in 15% dmg reduction comes in. If bard would use the utility they will end up below the other dps, but if not they should be on par since they don't have the advantages that everyone speaks of anymore.

So yeah, bards still have plenty to complain about. It's not the actual change that's the main issue though and what people seem to misunderstand.
It's the fact that it's implemented so poorly.

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Doesn't work like that. If bard does as much dps as a mage, then people won't bring mages because bard is BETTER not the same. The fact that they even have support skills which no other class has give them an advantage in party selection. The only to balance it so all classes get chosen in content is to differ their dps based on there advantage. Then they balance the skill in the fight so there's a downside to having buffs up 100%. What is the issue here? If bards have no penalty for songs, then people will stack bards so they have 100% up time. Also, casters are literally rooted to the ground 100% of the time. Bard cast is less than GCD.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Doesn't work like that. If bard does as much dps as a mage, then people won't bring mages because bard is BETTER not the same. The fact that they even have support skills which no other class has give them an advantage in party selection. The only to balance it so all classes get chosen in content is to differ their dps based on there advantage. Then they balance the skill in the fight so there's a downside to having buffs up 100%. What is the issue here? If bards have no penalty for songs, then people will stack bards so they have 100% up time. Also, casters are literally rooted to the ground 100% of the time. Bard cast is less than GCD.

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Warrior can literally outdps bard right now.
Why don't we see Warriors being stacked yet with your logic?

What is bards utility of songs without casters in party? TP/MP regen. How much of that is needed? Just one bard is enough.
Foe's would still put mages ahead of bards in that regard and BLM comes with Apoc, virust, e4e and smn with rez, stronger virus and e4e.

And like I just mentioned, the regen songs themselves already have built in dps reduction, by simply using them the dmg would alredy be lowered.
Also in raids there are plenty of mechanics that affect physical but not magical dmg, thus having the need for magic dps which can be buffed by foe's making it worth not stacking bards.
Let alone how the LB generation works promoting no class stacking.

The only reason bard was ever stacked in 2.0 is because they could output high dps while not being affected by mechanics so much due to freedom of movement.
This is not the case anymore, we need to be inside WM now giving us cast times, thus removing that advantage of why you'd stack bard even more.

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Originally Posted by Aryalandi

People need to learn to relax and do what real bards do.

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Seduce tavern wenches and nobles' daughters, manipulate their enemies with silver tongues and gain proficiency using swords, daggers and bows?

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Originally Posted by ZeratoTyrael

The point is, BRDs were used to playing with a certain playstyle for almost 2 years. BLMs are expecting to be immobile because that's how it plays from the beginning, Enochian just embraces that further, while BRDs went from being one of the most mobile jobs to being immobile essentially over night. You play the entire game from ARR 2.0 to 3.0 and suddenly WM not only changes your rotation but it changes the entire playstyle of the job. I agree that something had to be done about their essentially unrivaled mobility to damage ratio, but it should have been done a bit more gracefully. Perfect example would be to take a few cues from Marksmanship Hunter in WoW (a sin I know!). Have maybe 2ish shots you have to actually stand still and cast, 1 being a maintenance buff/debuff shot you have to keep up every so often, and 1 being damage shot that's a short CD or procs from something else....boom done. Reduced mobility while still retaining the mobility playstyle with the other shots. That's just a rough draft, but I feel WM was not the right way to go about it. WM having to be cast was a disaster all on its own and removing the cast time does help indeed, but I still feel WM is as clunky of a solution as they could have come up with.

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I can agree with this. I'll mention my other suggestion again by saying that if they're hellbent on giving the job cast times, give Windbite and Bloodletter cast times, leave the rest of the skills as is. WM would have to be replaced with something else but you'd cut down on some of the mobility by having to stand still every time you want to use a BL proc.

I'm leaning towards the issue being the implementation like some others have stated. I would have rather they did something like revamping ACC/CRIT calculations to nerf us while moving than how they thrust WM on us like this. Think that would have been a much easier learning curve than this mess, but would have essentially served the same purpose.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Warrior can literally outdps bard right now.
Why don't we see Warriors being stacked yet with your logic?
...
The only reason bard was ever stacked in 2.0 is because they could output high dps while not being affected by mechanics so much due to freedom of movement.
This is not the case anymore, we need to be inside WM now giving us cast times, thus removing that advantage of why you'd stack bard even more.

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Warriors aren't stacked because bard is better (read the statement you quoted)... If you read into the statement, you'd realize that everything you mentioned has been adjusted with anti stacking measures. Remember virus in 2.0? You probably don't but you used to have 100% uptime. Now, why would anyone but the scholar use virus when you get the same immunity? Apocostasis? That used to be the worst move in the game until adjustments. I think the point went over your head. But you seem to get the point in your final statement, so that confuses me. Do you know why they restricted mobility and increased dps?

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Warrior can literally outdps bard right now.
Why don't we see Warriors being stacked yet with your logic?

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This was answered in the Live Letter a couple of days ago.

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Q4. Even though they’re a tank, warriors can deal a lot of damage, will paladin and dark knight be able to deal a similar amount of damage?

A4. The reason warriors DPS is high is because they have a debuff where they can decrease a target’s slashing resistance.

As an off tank, dark knights can also utilize the benefits from this debuff’s effect and that will also allow them to output similar amounts of damage. Paladins are specialized in defense so their damage output is a little bit lower.

As for how warriors can output more DPS while main tanking, paladins have strong physical damage reduction and powerful actions like Hallowed Ground, dark knights have a strong magical damage reduction in Dark Mind, so these are the differences from the job designs.

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If resistance is being brought into this, quite possibly, with a Bard and Dragoon pairing, the Bard would do more damage, no? o:

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

If resistance is being brought into this, quite possibly, with a Bard and Dragoon pairing, the Bard would do more damage, no? o:

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No because we are piercing?
If I hear a war go look at my fell cleave hit for 7k one more time I'm going to lose my mind

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Originally Posted by NyssaElf

No because we are piercing?

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Yes, because you are piercing.

Disembowel
Reduces targets piercing resist by 10%.

A DRG skill.....

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Yes, because you are piercing.

Disembowel
Reduces targets piercing resist by 10%.

A DRG skill.....

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Yea sure not what I'm saying. He said bring a tank for it's "slashing resisting" and a drg would make us do more damage. Drg yes war no

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Originally Posted by NyssaElf

Yea sure not what I'm saying. He said bring a tank for it's "slashing resisting" and a drg would make us do more damage. Drg yes war no

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Wat.
Read my question more carefully. I said that bringing a Dragoon for the piercing debuff would increase Bards damage output. The Warrior part was only to address the fact that we can include resist debuffs.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

He might have changed it, as says Bard and Dragoon now.

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It wasn't edited though. You can see the original in the person's post. :u

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Originally Posted by NyssaElf

Yea sure not what I'm saying. He said bring a tank for it's "slashing resisting" and a drg would make us do more damage. Drg yes war no

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He might have changed it, as says Bard and Dragoon now.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

This was answered in the Live Letter a couple of days ago.



If resistance is being brought into this, quite possibly, with a Bard and Dragoon pairing, the Bard would do more damage, no? o:

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With that logic you can say the DRG does less damage than the other melee by like 120dps because DRG comes with piercing resist down.
Then with the same logic DRG should be parsing 10% above the other melee dps because you know, without the resist down it does less right?
Yet the DRG is balanced around doing dmg with that piercing resist debuff up.

Just because they'r the developers doesn't make their excuse right.

Bard doesn't come with a built in piercing resistance down debuff, if we did then this argument could be made.

Also even with the DRG debuff bard is doing about the same as WAR because it's behind WAR without the debuff.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Snip

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I think you're missing my point by a longshot. I only mentioned that the damage output by Bards would increase when there's a Dragoon in the party. People were arguing that Warriors deal much more damage than Bards without their initiate slashing resistance debuff being mentioned. I just pointed that out is all. :u

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I think you're missing my point by a longshot. I only mentioned that the damage output by Bards would increase when there's a Dragoon in the party. People were arguing that Warriors deal much more damage than Bards without their initiate slashing resistance debuff being mentioned. I just pointed that out is all. :u

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And I'm pointing out that the WAR comes with slashing debuff so it's never without it.
Bard doesn't come with a handy piercing resistance debuff of its own, it needs a DRG for that.

Well Ninja and Monk also have their own debuffs :3.

Dragon Kick increase blunt damage on top of increasing caster damage (Monk is Blunt) and Dancing Edge increases slashing (War/Ninja)

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

And I'm pointing out that the WAR comes with slashing debuff so it's never without it.
Bard doesn't come with a handy piercing resistance debuff of its own, it needs a DRG for that.

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I question whether or not you actually read the post. Was only stating that a Bard would do more damage if paired with a Dragoon. You're just going in circles, so I'll just end it here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

Going to have to forgive them. It takes a wind up time for longshot now because of WM.

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Someone caught on! Mission accomplished. C:<

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I think you're missing my point by a longshot.

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Going to have to forgive them. It takes a wind up time for longshot now because of WM.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I question whether or not you actually read the post. Was only stating that a Bard would do more damage if paired with a Dragoon. You're just going in circles, so I'll just end it here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit:




Someone caught on! Mission accomplished. C:<

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You'r the one missing my point.
Let me expand on it too.
Warrior fills a tank spot, yet it does more dmg than a bard or pretty much the same if still not more if there is a drg to give brd piercing debuff.

The bard has to work harder for the dmg now than ever, yet is compensated by doing the same damage as a tank while filling a DPS spot.

Who's not seeing the point exactly?

Tank > Dps in damage, no issues there whatsoever right?

I've had bards in my group do very well. If you're being outdps'd by a warrior in Deliverance stance, then the problem is you, not the warrior.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

I've had bards in my group do very well. If you're being outdps'd by a warrior in Deliverance stance, then the problem is you, not the warrior.

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Or you'r comparing shitty warriors to good bards?

Argument works both ways.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Or you'r comparing shitty warriors to good bards?

Argument works both ways.

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Didn't say bad warriors. That's your own input. But thanks for playing.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

Didn't say bad warriors. That's your own input. But thanks for playing.

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But I did say it for you though, so you'r welcome.

You bards are so mean to everyone now lol.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

So it's okay for guys like Verius to call someone bad and then it's not okay for someone to call his warriors bad instead, because calling his warrior bad without any evidence is mean, but calling a bard bad without any evidence is perfectly fine?

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I'm not even talking about him.
Just the way you guys are acting lately, I'm scared ya'll going to have a heart attack.

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Originally Posted by Mhikail

You bards are so mean to everyone now lol.

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So it's okay for guys like Verius to call someone bad and then it's not okay for someone to call his warriors bad instead, because calling his warrior bad without any evidence is mean, but calling a bard bad without any evidence is perfectly fine?

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

Didn't say bad warriors. That's your own input. But thanks for playing.

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if your being out-dpsed as a bard, your either doing your job horribly or perfectly. not really much of an argument though, seeing as how warriors are dealing dps like damage in certain situations.

The DPS is fine with WM... that's not the argument.

The argument is CAST BARS, we never asked for them... even if they gave me cast bars while moving, it doesn't change the fact that I rolled BRD for the swift playstyle, not to be casting like a mage...

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

But I did say it for you though, so you'r welcome.

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Wasn't talking about bad warriors though, but thanks for playing.

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

The DPS is fine with WM... that's not the argument.

The argument is CAST BARS, we never asked for them... even if they gave me cast bars while moving, it doesn't change the fact that I rolled BRD for the swift playstyle, not to be casting like a mage...

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Going back to my suggestion, would you settle for having 4 instants and 4 cast skills? This is assuming that mobility is what somehow breaks BRD and makes it OP. Part of the reason for my suggesting Bloodletter getting a cast time is because it wouldn't interfere much with the rest of the abilities, since it means you'd have to stand still when reacting to BL procs but not much more than that.

I think when you first start the Archer class, the game tells you that you can move AND use weaponskills unlike other classes. I think SE should have made WM different, different from making BRDs a turret class.

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Originally Posted by DCILuther

I think when you first start the Archer class,

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When I first rolled an archer when ARR first came out I would have never expected to be forced to become a bard. That was a stupid design decision to begin with and made me quit the game until rogue came out. Anyone who's managed to get over the fact that they are some kind of support class are now being told they are a caster.

What the hell happened to being an archer? I'd still play that class if it were even a thing, but unfortunately you are even more gimped by not becoming a bard.

Simple, they should have released BRD and RNG....

BRD could have cast times, strong songs and buffs to the group.. with a healing/buffing limit break.
Weapons: Bow Main Hand / Harp Off-Hand
Overall Potency on Abilities: Medium/Low

RNG could have been instant bow attacks, strong piercing damage and a DPS limit break.
Weapons: Bow Main Hand
Overall Potency on Abilities: Medium/High

But eh... I'm slowly adjusting to WM, even though I absolutely hate the playstyle.

Got my MCH to 52 today, was looking forward to Gauss Barrel. Once I got it, it felt slow, clunky, looked awful, etc. I retired my MCH immediately and decided I probably won't ever touch the Bard either. It's just...not very fun or exciting, IMO.

inb4 "Good, we don't want you running around the battlefield anyways and ruining our day!" Well, news flash, I stood still as a MCH the entire time I DPSed except for when it was necessary to move.