Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

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Originally Posted by Shadow_Sama

It's still recycling spells, abilities, traits, and weaponskills. It's like like saying Ken and Ryu from Street Fighter are different, or Fox and Falco from Smash Bros. are different, when fundamentally. They're not.

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The Game Grumps would like a word with you.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

The guilds being centered around classes, with their respective jobs being quests involving other entities, in short, they are building lore around the armory system, and its removal would involve retconning whole swaths of story and render many achievements unattainable. You would still have rebalancing issues with or without classes, as they never truly escape the three mainstays of the mmorpg, tank, healer, dd. I would prefer they innovate a little with signature weapons rather than stick with each job eventually being hamstrung by a specific weapon with good stats that looks nothing like what they'd wield in their profession, just to be efficient in a party.

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I completely agree. I'm gonna go ahead and assume though, that Yoshi already saw this problem and has a solution we probably don't know. If so, I'm thrilled. It might actually give everyone what they want, which imho Awesome!!

Simple solution is to just make a class changing item just like we have a job change crystal I guess. That way weapons will no longer be tied and they can then let certain jobs use some of the same weapons. Then some of the abilities that have (Requires Axe, sword, Bow, etc can then be used on other classes than are able to equip the weapons.) Meh after second thought, sounds convoluted...

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Originally Posted by Shadow_Sama

It's still recycling spells, abilities, traits, and weaponskills. It's like like saying Ken and Ryu from Street Fighter are different, or Fox and Falco from Smash Bros. are different, when fundamentally. They're not.

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Lol, lets call Ryu shotokan master and ken flame shotokan user because his QCF punch is flamin!!!

I'm surprised there has been so much discussion on a topic that holds no meaning for2.0. At least not yet since we haven't been playing it and don't know if they made the class/solo job/party thing work the way it should. Full action overhaul means we should prob just wait and see. Maybe jobs will get skills that really define its party role nested of random skills. May be jobs will get more then 1 skill every 10 lvls, only time will tell.

Anyone who thnks everything was fine the way it was is fooling themselves because the devs are changing it and they wouldn't be if everything was fine.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

I'm surprised there has been so much discussion on a topic that holds no meaning for2.0. At least not yet since we haven't been playing it and don't know if they made the class/solo job/party thing work the way it should. Full action overhaul means we should prob just wait and see. Maybe jobs will get skills that really define its party role nested of random skills. May be jobs will get more then 1 skill every 10 lvls, only time will tell.

Anyone who thnks everything was fine the way it was is fooling themselves because the revs are changing it and they wouldn't be if everything was fine.

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Yeah I said this same thing (Wait and see) several times in this thread yet still get flamed by people who want classes to stay as they were and don't even read what people type and apparantly don't realise that classes and jobs are being changed in some way.

I still don't get why people are trying to stifle conversation just because we haven't seen the system yet. We are allowed to speculate and make edjucated guesses as to how the system will work out and how we feel it should work.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I still don't get why people are trying to stifle conversation just because we haven't seen the system yet. We are allowed to speculate and make edjucated guesses as to how the system will work out and how we feel it should work.

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Feel free to speculate, I'm referring to people using 1.0 as ground to stand on as if it holds any relevance in 2.0

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I still don't get why people are trying to stifle conversation just because we haven't seen the system yet. We are allowed to speculate and make edjucated guesses as to how the system will work out and how we feel it should work.

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Probably because it seems irrelevant to speculate on something we cannot see, don't have much data on and can't even play. Personally I like seeing people's thoughts on stuff like this. In this particular case I agree; the classes are more or less unnecessary if we've got jobs which are really just the same thing under a different name. I look forward to the changes. They need to get rid to redundancy.

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Originally Posted by LlenCoram

The Game Grumps would like a word with you.

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Lol, I like some of Egoraptor's work :)

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Originally Posted by EinSoFZ

Probably because it seems irrelevant to speculate on something we cannot see, don't have much data on and can't even play. Personally I like seeing people's thoughts on stuff like this. In this particular case I agree; the classes are more or less unnecessary if we've got jobs which are really just the same thing under a different name. I look forward to the changes. They need to get rid to redundancy.

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I've said this before but if classes got class only skills that were made for solo and lost them on changing to a job it would allow jobs to gain more job only skills. This would go a long way in defining the roles.

Also jbs should have traits instead of the class that way when switching you enhance in a way the class never could

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

I've said this before but if classes got class only skills that were made for solo and lost them on changing to a job it would allow jobs to gain more job only skills. This would go a long way in defining the roles.

Also jbs should have traits instead of the class that way when switching you enhance in a way the class never could

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This makes the most sense to me. I hope this is the case.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

I've said this before but if classes got class only skills that were made for solo and lost them on changing to a job it would allow jobs to gain more job only skills. This would go a long way in defining the roles.

Also jbs should have traits instead of the class that way when switching you enhance in a way the class never could

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That sounds feasible. My only thing would be how would a skill be designed such that it's made for solo but is acceptable for loss when on a job (party play I suppose)? Like, as it is now If were to lose an incredibly powerful WS on my class when I switched to job, I'd just be annoyed or feel stifled. If they made a job equivalent of the skill I lost, that'd be pointless.

Basically to me the problem would then become: what new skills do they add for both and how would they add them with still being redundant or making one or the other somewhat lamed...definitely don't remove anything that would combo. Oh gosh.

I realize they could make any number of random skills, but this is where that pure speculation without seeing what we've got comes in.

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Originally Posted by EinSoFZ

That sounds feasible. My only thing would be how would a skill be designed such that it's made for solo but is acceptable for loss when on a job (party play I suppose)? Like, as it is now If were to lose an incredibly powerful WS on my class when I switched to job, I'd just be annoyed or feel stifled. If they made a job equivalent of the skill I lost, that'd be pointless.

Basically to me the problem would then become: what new skills do they add for both and how would they add them with still being redundant or making one or the other somewhat lamed...definitely don't remove anything that would combo. Oh gosh.
I realize they could make any number of random skills, but this is where that pure speculation without seeing what we've got comes in.

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To me solo skills would be about self preservation and job skills would be about damage for dd, tanking for tank ect. The reason you wouldnt use a class in party would be, no traits so a lot of your abilitys would be nerfed and a mager loss of damage output

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

To me solo skills would be about self preservation and job skills would be about damage for dd, tanking for tank ect. The reason you wouldnt use a class in party would be, no traits so a lot of your abilitys would be nerfed and a mager loss of damage output

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It's all give take basically.

But if Traits enhance your Damage Dealing capabilities with your job, wouldn't it still be possible to solo because you are able to kill your targets much more quickly than you would solo as a Class ? Class = long drawn out battles ? Job = quick, smaller burst battles ?

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Originally Posted by Cedri

It's all give take basically.

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The key to make it work is applying traits to the job and not the class. If they don't do that then 2 different skill set would just become situational. Although I still think jobs would excel if classes got skills and lost them for job skills. Solo you should be able to deal damage at a fair pace while maintaining your hp by yourself. In a party you need to max dd and relay on someone else to heal you. If the skills are catered to these needs then it would work.

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Originally Posted by Shadow_Sama

But if Traits enhance your Damage Dealing capabilities with your job, wouldn't it still be possible to solo because you are able to kill your targets much more quickly than you would solo as a Class ? Class = long drawn out battles ? Job = quick, smaller burst battles ?

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It would depend on what the finished action list was. What if marauder got blood bath and war didn't. I would take the constant self curing over damage output or I would have to constantly rest for hp.

Why is this even an argument? Is there really concern for the way the class/job system is? Also, take a look at Archanist vs Summoner. Archanist is supposedly going to get Carbuncle while Summoner will not. Summoner will instead have several different types of small primal based summons.

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Originally Posted by Zoloe

Why is this even an argument? Is there really concern for the way the class/job system is? Also, take a look at Archanist vs Summoner. Archanist is supposedly going to get Carbuncle while Summoner will not. Summoner will instead have several different types of small primal based summons.

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Not sure if adding arc/summoner fixes the game... And as ive stated before 1.0 class job relation was flawed, I'm waiting til beta to see if they fixed it.

This is se's last chance and if you really think 1.0 class/job is gonna appeal to the masses you are dilisusional. There has to be a greater seperation between the 2 and have them perform solo/party roles as intended.

Some people( you know who you are) are getting way too hung up on the weapon problem. Godseijuro Hiko especially talking down to people he thinks dont understand, use your imagination a bit. Anyone remember how gla used to use dagger? or how cnj and whm can use both wand and staff?

IF drk gets added to gla it doesnt have to be as restrictive as you think. They can make GS or scyth that gla/drk can use but pld cannot. Also the 5 quested abilities can be very drk themed. We can also give them the freedom to experiment with the job a bit more instead of just demanding a copy of FFXI drk.

They could also add a thf class that can use gun/dagger/katana which would later branch into ninja and musketeer(lore friendly: considering the musketeers were pirates first)

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

Some people( you know who you are) are getting way too hung up on the weapon problem. Godseijuro Hiko especially talking down to people he thinks dont understand, use your imagination a bit. Anyone remember how gla used to use dagger? or how cnj and whm can use both wand and staff?

IF drk gets added to gla it doesnt have to be as restrictive as you think. They can make GS or scyth that gla/drk can use but pld cannot. Also the 5 quested abilities can be very drk themed. We can also give them the freedom to experiment with the job a bit more instead of just demanding a copy of FFXI drk.

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5 abilities alone don't make a Dark Knight. :/

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Originally Posted by Shadow_Sama

5 abilities alone don't make a Dark Knight. :/

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Oh I didnt know you were the authority on the subject. I apologize. What else exactly do we need? It doesnt have to be a copy of ffxi where you had a bunch of elemental crap you never use. Most drk used the drk specific spells and there wasnt a ton of those either.

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

Oh I didnt know you were the authority on the subject. I apologize. What else exactly do we need? It doesnt have to be a copy of ffxi where you had a bunch of elemental crap you never use. Most drk used the drk specific spells and there wasnt a ton of those either.

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Agreed with shadow, would be a bad move to have more then one job from a class with 1.0 mechanics. 5 abilitys don't make a new job.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

Agreed with shadow, would be a bad move to have more then one job from a class with 1.0 mechanics. 5 abilitys don't make a new job.

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Except they do... I shouldnt have to remind you of bard. They made bard out of something that had nothing in common with it. Point being it doesnt have to be the typical jobs you are used to, they have obviously branched away from that with ffxiv's jobs.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

Not sure if adding arc/summoner fixes the game... And as ive stated before 1.0 class job relation was flawed, I'm waiting til beta to see if they fixed it.

This is se's last chance and if you really think 1.0 class/job is gonna appeal to the masses you are dilisusional. There has to be a greater seperation between the 2 and have them perform solo/party roles as intended.

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I was just using Archanist/Summoner as an example of how jobs and classes already differ from each other. Classes, while more useful for solo, can definitely be used inside parties. While fighting Ifrit, we would often go as Thaumaturge instead of Black Mage to have raise and other abilities that BLM cannot use. Actually most of the time I would be a class in a party was to have raise or cure or something to ensure my survival as well as others if they needed it. Also, it can be a bit of a challenge to try to beat stuff with classes instead of jobs.

All I'm saying is it is not broken, adding Archanist and Summoner don't fix anything, they just add to everything.

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Originally Posted by Zoloe

I was just using Archanist/Summoner as an example of how jobs and classes already differ from each other. Classes, while more useful for solo, can definitely be used inside parties. While fighting Ifrit, we would often go as Thaumaturge instead of Black Mage to have raise and other abilities that BLM cannot use. Actually most of the time I would be a class in a party was to have raise or cure or something to ensure my survival as well as others if they needed it. Also, it can be a bit of a challenge to try to beat stuff with classes instead of jobs.

All I'm saying is it is not broken, adding Archanist and Summoner don't fix anything, they just add to everything.

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If you were doing ifrit on thm for raise then you were doing it wrong war has steel cyclone on 30 second timer with bloodbath making it the best solo skill in game. If it wnt flawed they wouldn't be fixing it so stop defending it..

Your comments about using classes in party's when they are intended for solo only further proves my point.

MY point was that they are fun to use.

Pffft "doing it wrong". What a load of BS.

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Originally Posted by Zoloe

MY point was that they are fun to use.

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If you were playing to have fun youre doing it wrong! All serious business up in here.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

Your comments about using classes in party's when they are intended for solo only further proves my point.

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Hmmmm, were classes originally intended for just solo play?

Hmm, I don't think the Class system has really gotten an opportunity to shine with the Job system yet. While perhaps not completely necessary to have, it does offer some good footing for areas like PvP, where classes that can customize itself more may be more beneficial than a Job which only excels in certain areas.

I "kind of" look at it as a talent tree from other MMO's. The Class System looks weird just because it really hasn't given you options yet.

I will try some examples:

I am a new Gladiator who just started the game. My weapons available to me are a sword+shield or a two-handed sword. I am given the option to focus on being a tank or become a DPS. That lv.1-30 area gives me the opportunity to decide which feeling or style of play I enjoy more. When I reach lv.30 I decide that I enjoy DPS more, which I decide to become a Dark Knight. What I also like is if I decide down the road I don't enjoy one role, I can start Paladin and see if that sparks for me.

WoW actually approaches classes like this also, not to the extent of FFXIV, but they do put you on a blank slate before choosing your role. Like if you are a Paladin in that game, the first ten levels gives you a little access to all roles you can become. Lv.10 comes around and then your talent tree is activated and you choose which role you prefer the most. Rather it be Retribution(DPS), Holy(Healing), or Protection(Tanking). You are given the option within a class.

FFXIV does almost the same exact thing as I said above. Perhaps to more of a extreme level, but I do get the purpose of keeping the Class system intact. They have already said in the past that Classes will still have it's advantages. My guess mostly is on the PvP side like I said above. Assuming you can still use abilities of other classes. It does actually sound clunky in a balance sense, but I guess we will see how they decide to approach it.

tl;dr: The Class system can work, it just needs time to flourish itself.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I am a new Gladiator who just started the game. My weapons available to me are a sword+shield or a two-handed sword. I am given the option to focus on being a tank or become a DPS. That lv.1-30 area gives me the opportunity to decide which feeling or style of play I enjoy more. When I reach lv.30 I decide that I enjoy DPS more, which I decide to become a Dark Knight. What I also like is if I decide down the road I don't enjoy one role, I can start Paladin and see if that sparks for me.

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What an awesome idea! :D
I've always thought it would be really cool to branch the classes out in this way, having them use multiple weapons that later become a defining weapon for a specific job. Maybe, at later levels, they could get more advanced weapons that are specific to that job.... scythe anyone? (everyone wants Dark Knight)

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Hmm, I don't think the Class system has really gotten an opportunity to shine with the Job system yet. While perhaps not completely necessary to have, it does offer some good footing for areas like PvP, where classes that can customize itself more may be more beneficial than a Job which only excels in certain areas.

I "kind of" look at it as a talent tree from other MMO's. The Class System looks weird just because it really hasn't given you options yet.

I will try some examples:

I am a new Gladiator who just started the game. My weapons available to me are a sword+shield or a two-handed sword. I am given the option to focus on being a tank or become a DPS. That lv.1-30 area gives me the opportunity to decide which feeling or style of play I enjoy more. When I reach lv.30 I decide that I enjoy DPS more, which I decide to become a Dark Knight. What I also like is if I decide down the road I don't enjoy one role, I can start Paladin and see if that sparks for me.

WoW actually approaches classes like this also, not to the extent of FFXIV, but they do put you on a blank slate before choosing your role. Like if you are a Paladin in that game, the first ten levels gives you a little access to all roles you can become. Lv.10 comes around and then your talent tree is activated and you choose which role you prefer the most. Rather it be Retribution(DPS), Holy(Healing), or Protection(Tanking). You are given the option within a class.

FFXIV does almost the same exact thing as I said above. Perhaps to more of a extreme level, but I do get the purpose of keeping the Class system intact. They have already said in the past that Classes will still have it's advantages. My guess mostly is on the PvP side like I said above. Assuming you can still use abilities of other classes. It does actually sound clunky in a balance sense, but I guess we will see how they decide to approach it.

tl;dr: The Class system can work, it just needs time to flourish itself.

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i dont know if you have sources for this example, but otherwise you have no way of knowing any of this as we have no idea how this is going to work post 2.0. Hell if DRK comes from gld then we are in big trouble as gld skills literally add nothing to DRK, MRD would be a better choice, but that aside, I feel like if they are going to make the system work, theyd have to open up more weapon choices to classes so you can "specialize" as you call it, and depending ont he weapon you are using it determines the sets of skills you unlock, that way as a DRK you have radically different skills from your WAR counterpart from the same class.

Fun idea before you think of it as running Velhart.

GLD doesnt have the skill set for DRK - the DRK sphere would have to kill a lot of GLD spells and then introduce a lot of its own. (Basically make a new class)

Otherwise you are going to have a very boring Drk. Going to dps you with my rampage phalanx skills!!! ;/

So then you either give skills that make no sense to be taken, or you create a very convoluted "take x" "get new x" "dont get new x" "new weapon y" and even while that would work it still wouldn't be a truly designed towards dark knight from gld.

while the inconsistencies if taken to the base and just saying "screw it"... the system will/can work.. its just... ugh.. why...

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Fun idea before you think of it as running Velhart.

GLD doesnt have the skill set for DRK - the DRK sphere would have to kill a lot of GLD spells and then introduce a lot of its own. (Basically make a new class)

Otherwise you are going to have a very boring Drk. Going to dps you with my rampage phalanx skills!!! ;/

So then you either give skills that make no sense to be taken, or you create a very convoluted "take x" "get new x" "dont get new x" "new weapon y" and even while that would work it still wouldn't be a truly designed towards dark knight from gld.

while the inconsistencies if taken to the base and just saying "screw it"... the system will/can work.. its just... ugh.. why...

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You forget about the sub class. GLA + THM + 5 DRK specific abilities/spells. We dont need a bunch of useless spells like ffxi.

And btw... what?? I dont even know what youre trying to say there. DRK sphere has to kill GLD spells?

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

You forget about the sub class. GLA + THM + 5 DRK specific abilities/spells. We dont need a bunch of useless spells like ffxi.

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Imo that is still a very lame/themed "Dark Knight". You may be happy with "cut here" "copy there" tada look its a disfigured new job.. but I'm not. (Also the THM addresses nothing about the physical DPS drk requires)

I can deal. But its not very pretty.


Sphere is the job sphere, the soul stones.

Drk doesnt have defensive spells - the GLD has defensive spells but those spells must carry into PLD. SO you have to have the sphere itself have the ability to kill certain class skills.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Imo that is still a very lame/themed "Dark Knight". You may be happy with "cut here" "copy there" tada look its a disfigured new job.. but I'm not. (Also the THM addresses nothing about the physical DPS drk requires)

I can deal. But its not very pretty.

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Still.. what? youve been dealing this entire time. This is how all jobs are currently put together, 2 classes + 5 new abilities = job

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

Still.. what? youve been dealing this entire time. This is how all jobs are currently put together, 2 classes + 5 new abilities = job

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So what? These forums are for feedback and someone started a thread on something I find annoying.

I know how all jobs are put together stating it is awkward.

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Originally Posted by Azurus

i dont know if you have sources for this example, but otherwise you have no way of knowing any of this as we have no idea how this is going to work post 2.0. Hell if DRK comes from gld then we are in big trouble as gld skills literally add nothing to DRK, MRD would be a better choice, but that aside, I feel like if they are going to make the system work, theyd have to open up more weapon choices to classes so you can "specialize" as you call it, and depending ont he weapon you are using it determines the sets of skills you unlock, that way as a DRK you have radically different skills from your WAR counterpart from the same class.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Fun idea before you think of it as running Velhart.

GLD doesnt have the skill set for DRK - the DRK sphere would have to kill a lot of GLD spells and then introduce a lot of its own. (Basically make a new class)

Otherwise you are going to have a very boring Drk. Going to dps you with my rampage phalanx skills!!! ;/

So then you either give skills that make no sense to be taken, or you create a very convoluted "take x" "get new x" "dont get new x" "new weapon y" and even while that would work it still wouldn't be a truly designed towards dark knight from gld.

while the inconsistencies if taken to the base and just saying "screw it"... the system will/can work.. its just... ugh.. why...

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To the both of you, the GLD > PLD - DRK was only there to explain my example, don't think too hard about it.

Yoshida has also said many times that more than one job will stem from a class. I really thought everyone would know this by now.

Ohh and one more thing. How do you all know what the ability palette will be in 2.0? With the new system in place, we could have a whole new set of abilities, or we can have the same exact thing. We don't know 100% yet. So saying DRK wouldn't work on GLD is only a statement you could consider in the current version. I would wait and see what GLD offers in 2.0 before jumping to conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

To the both of you, the GLD > PLD - DRK was only there to explain my example, don't think too hard about it.

Yoshida has also said many times that more than one job will stem from a class. I really thought everyone would know this by now.

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He said it can happen. Not that it will. And he said the battle team is looking into how feasible it is (meaning they are testing it).

Honestly if we have to use two jobs per class system (because a 1:1 ratio is way worse) then I think MRD - > DRK + THM would probably be better.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Ohh and one more thing. How do you all know what the ability palette will be in 2.0? With the new system in place, we could have a whole new set of abilities, or we can have the same exact thing. We don't know 100% yet. So saying DRK wouldn't work on GLD is only a statement you could consider in the current version. I would wait and see what GLD offers in 2.0 before jumping to conclusions.

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This whole thread is theorycrafting - we dont need to know. When we know we change our theories. Please dont use this as an "acceptable" way to shut people up as it is far from being correct.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

He said it can happen. Not that it will. And he said the battle team is looking into how feasible it is (meaning they are testing it).

Honestly if we have to use two jobs per class system (because a 1:1 ratio is way worse) then I think MRD - > DRK + THM would probably be better.

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I added something to my above post before you posted yours:

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Ohh and one more thing. How do you all know what the ability palette will be in 2.0? With the new system in place, we could have a whole new set of abilities, or we can have the same exact thing. We don't know 100% yet. So saying DRK wouldn't work on GLD is only a statement you could consider in the current version. I would wait and see what GLD offers in 2.0 before jumping to conclusions.

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