5.0 Job change wishlist

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

And you will note that if you don't play the DPS the way SE intended it, you do will do rubbish damage, hence the gauge shows you why.

If you play WHM, SCH or AST, none of their meters help you DPS. All WHM's lilies do is show you that you're not overhealing. SCH's Fey Gauge show you that you're actually using aetherflow and not just sitting on it. AST's gauge shows you what the cards do instead of blinding royal-roading things and hoping that was the one that does a party buff instead of personal buff. What does the lily actually do? Nothing. You get them if you aren't overhealing.

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Ghishlain already pointed out that you can still overheal and achieve lilies. You can heal a tank at 50,000 HP up to 55,000 HP with a 10,000 heal, generate a lily, and still overheal by 5,000. The only overheal it doesn’t show is when the overheal is 100%; that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t still proc at a 50% overheal, or even a 99% overheal.

DPS jobs rely on their gauge to actually function in their Stormblood incarnations. WHM does not. Most jobs could have continued to ignore the gauge if things were left on the status bar (Greased Lightning stacks, Blood the Dragon timer, Aethertrail/Dreadwyrm, to name a few), but aspects of their core performance has been made reliant on the Gauge. WHM has no such issue—you could hide the gauge away in some obscure part of your HUD, cover it up with a sticky note on your screen, and play WHM exactly the same without referring back to it with absolutely no detriment. That makes the gauge (and the lily system since it’s the only thing the gauge is used for) worthless.

There is a huge difference between saying that you can ignore DPS gauges and you can ignore the WHM gauge. Ignoring the DPS gauges actually detrimentally affects your performance; ignoring the WHM gauge does nothing. Nothing changes with the way the job plays, or your performance.

You really, really confuse me, because in one breath you say that there is nothing wrong with the lilies, and then in the next breath, it’s that the lilies are useless. And then you seem to be continuing to defend the purpose of a poorly implemented system. There is something wrong with the lilies if they are absolutely worthless to the core gameplay of the job.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Those 4% of players have a far better understanding than the developers who don't raid nor min/max to such a degree. Hence why good healers are able to perform their role while casting as few heals as possible. Intent matters little when gameplay functionality differs. If we played in the manner the dev team envisions, we could outright remove healers entirely from dungeon content. Trash mobs are so pitifully weak if you do single pulls, you simply don't need a healer, period.

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Did you even read that first sentence. Who knows how the game works? The dev's do. Do the devs QA everything for every possible meta possible ? No. Not unless you want content spaced 2 years apart. If we played like how the dev's intended, casting the HoT's would rip enmity from the tank every single time if not followed up by Lucid Dreaming. Instead the healer may as well not even exist since all the easy content can pretty much be handled by the tank alone.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Math and numbers do not lie. In fact, I can cite an example HyoMin and I did a few days ago. We did two Phantom Trains, one where we fully DPS'd and one where neither of us did anything except heal. In the latter, I had several Lilies yet my overall contribution to the group were 90% less than in the run where I dealt damage. Neither group were remotely in danger yet I was completely useless due to how low Normal mode content is tuned. I played "correctly," however the group would have benefited significantly more if I had been replaced by any DPS and they ran with only one healer. Apparently, healer DPS means nothing though...

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You are also overgeared for the content in normal mode.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Parsers don't guess the battle logs. They calculate everything in real time. Perhaps you would understand this if you bothered to hear the opposing side and not present yourself as some authority on a subject you know staggeringly little about.

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Please go read the developer of the ACT plugin's reddit posts and forum posts, you will find out just how inaccurate the thing is. Pieces of the source code to it are also scattered across various github's. You know what destroys the accuracy of it the most? Having anything else running (Eg youtube, netflix, spotify, etc.) Also one of the overlays is just a full blown web browser overlay, so no wonder it kills low-spec machines.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Content which is all mind numbingly easy. This is why people care about Savage when it comes to job optimization and not the normal mode equivalent. In the latter, you can die twenty times and it have absolutely no impact because half the content is braindead. As noted above, if I did standard single pulls in dungeons, healers have literally no value. Your favorite job is completely worthless because I simply won't take enough damage. I reiterate my aforementioned example of Phantom Train. When I played the Kisai way, focusing on virtually no DPS and spamming Cure II, I contributed a meager 10% compared to my previous run where I properly balanced healing and DPSing. I could have easily AFK'd, made a coffee and let them kill it. It would have changed nothing. I was that useless.

... if I applied this asinine logic to say, computer science. By your standards, my having no idea what I'm doing is a demonstration of skill. And when I learn the flow of things after a week, I've "sucked the fun of it."

Skill is someone gradually improving, which can only be accomplished with visible information. Without parsers, someone can spam Full Thrust combos without ever realizing doing so severely impacts their damage, thus they cannot improve without the information only theorycrafters provide. And how do theorycrafters obtain such valauble datat? Parsers. You are so utterly blinded by your seething hatred for the raid community you have lost any semblance of a rational thought. You accuse raiders of sucking out the fun and spreading toxicity yet your astounding levels of arrogance have completely derailed a thread that was never about parsers. So who is actually causing drama here?

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Without parsers, people would figure out the best rotation and such by trial-and-error. The drama starters are the people who aren't hiding the fact that they are parsing. You're trying to justify data-mining as if it was ever a good thing. I like knowing how things work, but not before I play it. A small portion of the playerbase is responsible for "the MSQ cutscenes" incident, and a small portion of the player base is responsible for the Koike incident. A small portion of players is what ruins things for everyone because they can't just be nice.

Now look at all the snark in this thread. This could have all ended with one post, but because certain forum users must get their burns in, it's now derailed the thread.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Then what's the point of them?

Actually, I am going to take issue with you on SCH gauge not helping DPS, because that HoT from Fey Union is AMAZING for DPSing. Does it directly affect my DPS? No, but it gives me windows where I can. I could Adlo-Excog-Fey Union and DPS for a long while before I even have to think about healing, and if I have Aetherflow to spare, I can last even longer.

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SCH is not my main healer, so I'll not comment about "the right meta" for the Scholar, because I'll only play it for Alliance Raids and MSQ roulette. The problem with the lilies is that people think they are some how losing out on some bonus, that really none of the healers have. It's not a limit break bar.

I posted this a few pages back in an edit:
https://youtu.be/JQSyPv45FrY

This is what the Lilies actually do. If you crit, it shaves 5 seconds off the recast... provided that you've used it. So if you're not using it, Secret of the Lily II, does nothing. What might not be visible (I did a solo run trying to mouse over the 4 abilities to show the cooldown changes) is that Assize CD is at 48 seconds when the third lily comes up, the same cure that did the crit. So while it's on oCD it counts down 13, 12, 11, crit, 5,4,3,2,1. So these are two separate oCD savings. So if you aren't using Asylum and Assize frequently, then a crit from a Cure isn't going to do anything for the cooldown. And if you wait till you have 3 lilies to use just to save 12 seconds on the oCD, that's also silly.

And yes it's a 20% proc, so it's not something you should fish for. If you get a lot of crits, then it's more useful, but that goes into what's really a BiS build and that I don't have an opinion on.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Now look at all the snark in this thread. This could have all ended with one post, but because certain forum users must get their burns in, it's now derailed the thread.

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Can I just point something out? Nowhere in the first comment was Lilies and DPS mentioned. You opened that can of worms. Someone was of the opinion that lilies are useless and should be changed in 5.0, without anything else mentioned, and you took it as a reason to comment on DPSing.

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Originally Posted by Azper

WHM: Scrap and/or rework the Lily system. Give us some more utility abilities.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Make WHM lilies not utterly useless.

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Those are the only two Lily mentions before you talked about WHM Lilies and DPSing.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Now look at all the snark in this thread. This could have all ended with one post, but because certain forum users must get their burns in, it's now derailed the thread.

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No. You derailed this thread, Kisai. You made it about DPS, when it was a thread talking about changes people would like to see in 5.0. Do not even dare and try to blame the others in this thread. You came in here looking to argue with people. If you did not, then why even bring up the comments you did:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There's nothing wrong with the lilies. Use the skills with the lower recast when they are ready to fire if you need it.

Players asking for the Lilies to have anything to do with DPS, or the Oath gauge for DPS are completely missing the point of their job. The gauges they added to all the jobs in SB are to help play the job's role, not deliver bigger booms. The job works exactly the same regardless if the gauge is there or not. To emphasize this, take a look at Bard. What does the gauge actually do? Nothing. It's there to basically tell you when you should be singing something, and alternating between the DoT and the main offensive skills. With the WHM, the lilies and confession stacks only generate when you aren't overhealing. If you don't always have three lilies, you are playing the job wrong. With PLD, the Shield Oath increases when you block an attack. When in sword oath, it increases when an auto-attack lands. Basically when you do your job correctly the gauges increase. That's the point. Thus the reward for doing the job correctly is having other related skills be usable more frequently. Don't ever expect this to change. It is not a limit break gauge.

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Your suggestions were added as an almost-afterthought, and were very hard to consider as the primary reason you commented in this thread considering you prefaced with this nonsense.

You don't know what a meta is, how they form, how they evolve. You don't know how parsers work, nor how they are utilised.

Please stop.

Hint: Developer intent means very little when it comes to the formation/evolution of metas.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

the Lilies neither hinder nor help you

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Yes, we know. That is the thing we want changed. The game has tooltips and tutorials devoted specifically to each Job gauge. They appear in the game website's official "Job guides". They have a unique UI element. All of these things suggest that it serves an important function. In fact, for a White Mage, it serves no practical function, in contrast to basically every other Job gauge. I'm glad we're all on the same page now.

But really, you deserve an Olympic Gold Medal in gymnastics for this, "I've said they don't help you all along," line given what you actually said in your opening salvo:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The gauges they added to all the jobs in SB are to help play the job's role

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Emphasis mine. HTH.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Now look at all the snark in this thread. This could have all ended with one post, but because certain forum users must get their burns in, it's now derailed the thread.

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You've really lost the plot, here. You're the one who came out guns-blazing, telling everyone they're playing the Job incorrectly by virtue of using its abilities, whilst being directly hostile to another person's recommendation which was directly pertinent to the thread's topic. I tried to respectfully lay out the case against the Lily gauge, which you ignored as you proceeded to ignite a flame war by acting like it was everyone else who was picking a fight. So the lesson here is: don't make a blanket claim that everyone else is stupid and incompetent and expect people to just accept it.

You intentionally provoked this, and I'm more convinced than ever that you must be trolling. You clearly have some grudge against "elitists" and "raiders" and whatever other faceless classes of posters you believe have kicked your puppy. You owe OP an apology.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Saito may even have a better understanding of BRD than I do, as he has had more experienced with the hardcore aspects of it, and where as I have only started to optimize it since the end of Creator.

For the record, I do play WHM. It may not be my main, but I think I have a fairly decent understanding of it, and I know that a lot of people in this thread (the WHM mains) have an even better understanding of it than I do. You are blinded by your skewed perceptions of raiders, parsers, FFLogs and the like, and you are so convinced that you are 100% right about everything you say that it is incredibly astounding. I think you need to come back to earth and accept that maybe, just maybe, the people in this thread are perhaps a bit more experienced than you are even willing to giving them credit for.

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To the bolded: Probably not. It seems we both began raiding at roughly the same time, and you cleared O8S earlier than I did.

I mained WHM for a time before switching to BRD too. I might understand the cure spam mentality if we were back in ARR, but HW gave WHM so many instant cast heals (and SB -SHORTENED- the cooldowns on most of them across the board - remember when Assize used to be 90 seconds? Or Benediction used to be 300 seconds? Pepperidge Farm remembers.) that expecting WHMs to spam cure to utilize the lily gauge to its fullest isn't feasible from a design standpoint. One could even go back to the SB class showcase, revealed during the live letter before SB's release where everyone finally saw their new skills and gauges for the first time. For every other job, it was obvious what the gauges did and how to build up charges/utilize them (sans Bard, except Bard was completely overhauled and -nobody- knew/was allowed to talk about how SB Bard worked until the information embargo was lifted two weeks later).

What happened during the WHM showcase in that trailer? Lilies proccing in not obvious ways, showed off Rescue which every healer has, and not even showing the lilies being consumed. It confused the hell out of most people that watched it, resulting in guesses that... Actually weren't that far off the mark in terms of overall disappointment. The hysteria that followed was a product of WHMs essentially being entirely kicked out of the meta during the Creator raid tier, when AST Balance was buffed to extremely broken levels, their Noct stance did not provide anywhere near enough shielding for WHM/AST combo to compete against SCH/AST combo, and SCH's shielding was incredibly broken in a raid tier where there was barely any raid-wide AoE. WHMs didn't die out upon SB release like many predicted, although that wasn't because of the lily gauge being better than people thought, it was because raid fights became longer, the frequency of AoEs increased (about doubled or tripled - O4S in particular was the first fight to introduce the 'top off everyone's HP or you get a highly debilitating debuff' concept to the game), and Scholar had been nerfed into the ground (the Adlo MP costs at the start of Stormblood meant that pre-shielding before pull was VERY costly) until the developers buffed them back up again via potency increases, slashing their MP costs, and reducing summon cast times a patch later.

And the above is a lesson on how context matters.

Again, it feels like a placeholder rather than a proper system, compared to the complexity and responsiveness of the meters for every other job. It doesn't help that the WHM meter is largely RNG-based. (BRD meter is largely RNG-based too, but it's tied to a key gameplay mechanic that we already had prior to Stormblood, and Bards gain a lot out of proper usage of the meter - basically turning us into machine guns at high skill level with high crit gear. And even BRDs still have a way to force procs. Why do WHMs have to wrestle with the RNG for their meter when every other job doesn't have to?)

As for the BRD (and slightly related to MCH) stuff we spoke of earlier, moving our enmity dumps from Refresh/Tactician to Repelling Shot/Blank sounds like a good idea. Tying our enmity dumps to party-wide resource regeneration is a questionable design decision, the same way that tying the only healer enmity dump to their primary MP regeneration skill is. Lord knows I stopped using Repelling Shot once we lost the bowmage gameplay and it no longer inflicted any damage. As it is now, it kind of only exists to look fancy at the risk of clipping into our GCDs, or if you need to re-position and manually moving isn't fast enough. Or accidentally repelling off of platforms.

Other things:
- I see us getting some sort of trait to force proc Straighter Shot for Refulgent Arrow use. Maybe an upgraded Barrage trait.
- Oh, maybe Army's Paeon could be potentially overhauled in that once you hit max stacks, it automatically resets the cooldown on Barrage? Combined with the above, it'd be absurdly broken, though. I like the Flaming Arrow idea better, because I really, REALLY miss Flaming Arrow, and with Flaming Arrow, Army's Paeon would retain the current feel of a song that exists between Ballad's AoE damage and Minuet's single target damage.

As for everything else about the holy train wreck of an argument exploding all around us: Everyone else already said what I wanted to say. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Did you even read that first sentence. Who knows how the game works? The dev's do. Do the devs QA everything for every possible meta possible ? No. Not unless you want content spaced 2 years apart. If we played like how the dev's intended, casting the HoT's would rip enmity from the tank every single time if not followed up by Lucid Dreaming. Instead the healer may as well not even exist since all the easy content can pretty much be handled by the tank alone.

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Did you? If the developers knew everything, why did they twice re-balance Ninja after outright citing the players found a superior rotation? Likewise, why can I heal more efficiently while simultaneously contributing 3,000 DPS when the intended way to play healers is to scarcely DPS at all? And if we played as the dev's intended, tanks would never leave Tank stance, thus there isn't a chance in hell HoT ripping aggro. Warrior generates so much enmity, you switch to Deliverance on your second or third GCD.

(Unchained) -> Tomahawk (Equilibrium) -> Heavy Swing (Deliverance)

With a Provoke+Shirk, that will hold off everyone, assuming they use their own aggro utility properly.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You are also overgeared for the content in normal mode.

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I ran all of Sigma normal in i340. It remained a complete joke that never required two healers.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Please go read the developer of the ACT plugin's reddit posts and forum posts, you will find out just how inaccurate the thing is. Pieces of the source code to it are also scattered across various github's. You know what destroys the accuracy of it the most? Having anything else running (Eg youtube, netflix, spotify, etc.) Also one of the overlays is just a full blown web browser overlay, so no wonder it kills low-spec machines.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...quc/?context=1

This post says otherwise. And you are flat out wrong regarding ACT's impact with things running in the background. I frequently have thirty tabs open and/or have Twitch playing while I run content. The numbers have never changed. Regardless, logs are adjusted accordingly when uploaded to account for any discrepancies. Of course, all knowing Kisai understands parsers better than the actual developers and raiders.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Without parsers, people would figure out the best rotation and such by trial-and-error. The drama starters are the people who aren't hiding the fact that they are parsing. You're trying to justify data-mining as if it was ever a good thing. I like knowing how things work, but not before I play it. A small portion of the playerbase is responsible for "the MSQ cutscenes" incident, and a small portion of the player base is responsible for the Koike incident. A small portion of players is what ruins things for everyone because they can't just be nice.

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And how do they know? Trial and error requires an objective error conclusion, which cannot be reached without data to rule out that valuable. This is why you see Monks who Tornado Kick on cooldown, Warriors who prioritize Fell Cleave over Upheaval when the latter is always better. Or they don't know pressing Inner Release too early will deny you five Fell Cleaves. Data-mining necessitates digging through files that aren't readily available. ACT uses the battle log itself and calculates what is relayed there. The Koike stemmed from sexual harassment and verbal abuse. Blaming parsers for that not only shows your immense bias but minimizes the vile behavior of people who did far worse than say "your numbers suck."

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Now look at all the snark in this thread. This could have all ended with one post, but because certain forum users must get their burns in, it's now derailed the thread.

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Nice try, honey. No, you came into a thread about brought up parsers entirely unprovoked. Don't attempt to shift the blame onto everyone else. You derailed this thread and you alone.

Lilies are bad but I don't know if I want SE to "try again", just get rid of them and call it a win because some other system they make to replace them has an equal chance of being as worthless or even damaging to WHM.

Also I'd like them to get rid of role actions. Just give every job access to all of their actions. The only good thing about the role actions system is how it works with level-sync, so instead I would make it a system where you just pick 5 of any of your skills and that lets you have them while synced at any level.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Lilies are bad but I don't know if I want SE to "try again", just get rid of them and call it a win because some other system they make to replace them has an equal chance of being as worthless or even damaging to WHM.

Also I'd like them to get rid of role actions. Just give every job access to all of their actions. The only good thing about the role actions system is how it works with level-sync, so instead I would make it a system where you just pick 5 of any of your skills and that lets you have them while synced at any level.

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Ooh, so I can actually go into level 50 content without missing a literal third of my song rotation? I like.

( It's not going to happen. ;_; )