Paladin: Possibilities

[Ravenmore]

One thing that they could do is like someone else mention making shields a offensive Weapon as well as a def one. This could be done with a stance like hasso with the same cooldown and duration. When in offensive you give up all the defense for it to act as a weapon where a block would do dmg to the mob on par with a sword attack. Remove the effect it goes back to what we have now. This would also effect Ochain plds by were the trade off would be to great but with a shield that good it would be worth it. Not a great idea but it would be a start and do less damage to the game then messing with the dmg calculations.

They could remove the atonement damage reduction that Abyssea NMs have and not give it to new NMs.

[Hayward]

As is the case with White Mages needing to be THE best healer in the game, Paladins need to be THE best tanks in the game. No two ways about it. This requires some extensive changes and, no, Almace and Ochain are not solutions but window dressing covering up serious flaws.

So far the only person I've read actually putting useful ideas out here has been Zyeriis. Most of the rest of this thread has been from sabermetric geeks who probably wouldn't care if Paladin existed or not or AllaGartr elitists who think the only solution is to kiss enough endgamer rear end to get an Almace & Ochain (90).

I've offered some solutions somewhere else but I'll list them here:

*Raise enmity cap by 100%, accelerate enmity gain, decelerate enmity loss. Make these part of an exclusive 4-tier Job Trait for Paladins (i.e. not applicable to /PLD nor available to any other job).

*Make Double Attack, Fencer, and 2 tiers of Attack Bonus native to Paladin.

*Give Paladins a Provoke-type ability that earns twice as much enmity as Provoke.

*Add a haste/counter effect to Reprisal or make them part of a new JA like Hasso/Seigan.

*change Defense Bonuses from a fixed number to a reduced percentage of overall damage taken, increasing with each tier (example: -2% (Lv. 10), -3% (Lv. 30), -5% (Lv. 50), -10% (Lv. 70), -15% (lv. 76), for a total of -35% DT; also preventing the abuse of /PLD that has been the case for /NIN for so long).

[TybudX]

@Bryth and GG
No, I understand how Retaliation works, I'm just forgetting that Ochain stops so much damage. Even with full on tanking gear (-50%) and good buffs a WAR is going to fall far behind on mitigation. I hadn't really thought about how much of a game changer Ochain was until now.

[Akujima]

All or most of your posts just consist of a simple formula: You're wrong. This is how you are wrong. I'm right. This is how I'm right. Completely leaving out the point or subject matter the OP was trying to portray.

Nevermind actually. This is $%#@'ed up because I was drunk while writing this... But just goes to show you that posting on these forums is so depressing, it resulted in my having to drink just to bring my consciousness down to the same level...-_-...

So I take back some of what I said, but not the points about RPG's or whatever...

[Mrbeansman]

As is the case with White Mages needing to be THE best healer in the game, Paladins need to be THE best tanks in the game. No two ways about it. This requires some extensive changes and, no, Almace and Ochain are not solutions but window dressing covering up serious flaws.

What pld should be is irrelevant. It's not the best tank it never was and it never will be get over it you can't always get what you want.

[Hayward]

@Mrbeansman:

I'd say from past history, it is absurd to say that Paladin's identity to S-E is irrelevant. I would guess you are the very type of sabermetrics geek who cares little about the things that make each job different--in other words, only numbers matter in the game. S-E, given past actions, appears to disagree or it would not have made such extensive efforts to return White Mage to the top of the healing order. What many of us are saying is that S-E needs to follow suit in the case of Paladin where tanking is concerned. Evasion tanking has its place, but that's called soloing in most cases. Counter-tanking by Monks can hardly be considered tanking in the sense of reducing one's own damage. If not for an alert White Mage, that Monk would not be long for the world no matter how much HP it has.

I stand by my post and repeat that it is necessary for S-E to return Paladins to the top of the tanking order with the same energy as they have done so with White Mage and healing.

[Sarick]

Here are a few suggestions.

Enmity Cap (possible fix)
New Ability Champion
While under this effect (equal to composure in recast and duration) each JA ability, attack or spell directly targeted on a claimed enemy reduces hate pool of others on it's hate list except the player with champion active. If multiple champions are active then the effects are multiplied but each paladin reduces the hate of each other equally in the enemies hate pool as well as others.

Tank damage mitigation and effectiveness.
May add effect counterbash to shield blocking (instead of successful block a counterbash may activate instead) or fix reprisal to be equivalent to counterstance in duration allowing reflected damage for longer.

I like the idea for cover like the OP mentioned but instead of making it a trait increase durations or decrease recast to make it user applied. To avoid balance issues this should overwrite shadows because while under this effect the player uncovers their real position to cover others.

Added durability from cheap shot attacks.
New Trait Safeguard, Divine Intervention, Lifeguard or Second Chance,
If total hp is over 50% deathblows from critical damage and instant death can result in HP dropping to 1 instead of a K.O.

That about sums it up..

[Mrbeansman]

@Mrbeansman:

I'd say from past history, it is absurd to say that Paladin's identity to S-E is irrelevant. I would guess you are the very type of sabermetrics geek who cares little about the things that make each job different--in other words, only numbers matter in the game. S-E, given past actions, appears to disagree or it would not have made such extensive efforts to return White Mage to the top of the healing order. What many of us are saying is that S-E needs to follow suit in the case of Paladin where tanking is concerned. Evasion tanking has its place, but that's called soloing in most cases. Counter-tanking by Monks can hardly be considered tanking in the sense of reducing one's own damage. If not for an alert White Mage, that Monk would not be long for the world no matter how much HP it has.

I stand by my post and repeat that it is necessary for S-E to return Paladins to the top of the tanking order with the same energy as they have done so with White Mage and healing.

Nothing was done that made whm the best the only thing that changed is that we got more hp so cure IV wasn't cutting it anymore. Can you give me on reason that pld should be the best tank that isn't based on what you want? The numbers are all that matters because the numbers are what makes the game go round. Sorry if you don't like it that's just how it is.

[Akujima]

Can you give me one reason that pld should be the best tank that isn't based on what you want?

"Paladin" is a Tank Class (or has the ability to become one) in nearly every single RPG out there.

At this current moment, PLD fails in all 3 aspects: As a Tank as a Healer or as a Melee. Face the facts.

It's not what I want, it just common sense.

[Zyeriis]

I'll post the same idea for the 3rd-ish time this thread: Native Fencer, Impetus, Berserk, or some other form of damage buff to Paladin to make them less of a waste of space.

Just because you skim my posts doesn't mean I don't mention constructive things. I simply don't repeat them over and over.

Also what Byrth said.

This was the nineteenth post you made in this thread.

Let's track down where you ever said anything about adding anything, especially anything about native fencer, impetus, or berserk. Oh, if you want to "tl:dr" I can assure you, you never posted about a single one of those things in this entire thread. *Begins copying and pasting*

First Post

Eh, it's arguable that a MNK, DRK, or WAR at the least could still tank better than/as well as PLD even on harder mobs outside Abyssea since they were doing so at 75 anyways. Shields aren't really anything special.

Doesn't add anything.

Second Post

D'oh, yes. Ochain is most definitely the exception to the rule. I'm trying to block it out of my memory right now because T2 VNM upgrade rates make me want to put my head through a wall.

Doesn't add anything.

Third post

It is if you have an Ochain, which definitely does have to be kept in mind since it's really not a "rare" or "difficult to acquire" shield. Also, Shields block TP moves and grant TP where Counters do not, and Counter hard caps at 75% where Ochain blocks at 90%+. Buffing shield in general is a poor choice when Ochain is already god-mode overpowered. Anything they give Shield as a whole has the potential to make Ochain PLD literally invincible.

Not a bad post but it still lacks any form of contribution or idea forming.

Fourth post

Only among low/mid-tier linkshells and players who generally did not know better. This has not been the case in the Endgame scene for the better part of half a decade now (2007-ish?). Half a dozen jobs all tanked better than Paladin before Abyssea, and still tank better than Paladin now.



Melee could always take hits. Like, seriously, this has never been a problem for melees. The only reason DD jobs got a bad rap for "Dying easily" is because most DDs sucked and didn't carry PDT/MDT sets. A Monk with 40 Def and -50% PDT in gear is going to take way less damage than a "Typical/Classic" Paladin in 600 Defense and 0 PDT.



Paladin is a sword wielding Melee job with access to White Magic, Shield bonuses, and some Defensive traits/JA. Whether or not that equates to being a tank is up to the players. As it stands, that particular combination is lackluster at best. Tanks do much better avoiding hits entirely than they would "Taking them for less damage". I had to put less damage in quotes because Paladin really doesn't take less damage than anyone else without an Ochain.

Doesn't add anything.

Fifth post

Okay.



Until it is against the ToS to play jobs any way the players want, this will always be the case.



No. This is an incorrect analogy. The Developers build the maze. The Players then determine the fastest/best/most efficient course throughout the maze. When Route A takes twice as much time and energy to traverse as Route B, Route A will likely be discarded in favor of Route B.



White Mage doesn't have to be a healer. It is simply well equipped to be a healer. Whether or not it is efficient for White Mage to be a healer is left to the determination of the player base.

Doesn't add anything

Sixth post

I never assumed there were two routes. Would you rather I had included 3 routes in my expository? 4? There are an infinite number of routes in any given maze when the player is free to move in all four directions. Players will still find the fastest/most efficient route. Players can also eliminate a near infinite amount of routes via common sense. It would not be prudent to go forward and then immediately take a step backwards. Nor would it be at all smart to repeat the above process multiple times. I figured that was common sense.

As for twisting words, kindly refrain from projecting your angst onto me. I have not twisted anything. I have taken your words at face value. Do not blame me if you find yourself unable to properly convey what it is you are trying to say.

Doesn't add anything.

Seventh post

The concept of Tanking, the Paladin job, and the desirability/love/adoration of Paladin pre-Abyssea are three different things. I will not address them together, as that would be a fallacy.

1) Desirability of Paladin pre-Abyssea:

As I already said, only mid/low-tier shells "Loved" Paladin as much as you claim it was loved. Good shells were already using Monk, Samurai, and Dark Knight tanks and killing things twice as fast. In these shells, the only Paladins were pretty much just the established oldies who loved their Aegis/Excal shinies. No Endgame Linkshell of any tier ever needed "More" Paladins. It was not in high demand. Either a shell had their tanks (whether they're Drks, Sams, Rdms, Mnks, or Plds), or they didn't and they weren't really a shell.

2) The Paladin Job:

I actually don't have anything more to say about Paladin. You haven't said anything about Paladin either. I'll leave this as is, as it is moot.

3) The concept of tanking:

It is always better to not get hit than to get hit. Period. Always. Every single time. Zero is always less than any positive number. That is all there is to it. As long as the option to not get hit exists, getting hit will never, ever be preferable, let alone ideal.

Doesn't add anything.

Eighth Post

I can engage in combat and still not get hit. Two birds with one stone. Booyah.

Doesn't add anything.

This is where I interject. 8 posts of non-contributions, I respond directly to you about how you're not contributing at all.

Ninth Post

True enough, ha.



It has everything to do with the post I specifically replied to. Don't be mad just because two people chose to post about something aside from Paladin Modifications #9001. We were on topic, get over it.



This is because all jobs are fundamentally the same. Jobs do not define your character. Jobs augment your base character with Skills, Traits, Abilities, and Spells. It does not make them function any differently from one another. That is simply how the game was designed, how it works, and how it will always work. This cannot be changed.

What you seem to want is a different game. In all honesty, that may be the best option for you. I'm not trying to tell you to "gtfo", but there is a market for video games for a reason. You seem to dislike how FFXI works from its very core. Your adjustments practically ask for an entirely new game with the Ninja/Final Fantasy label on it. I honestly think you would be happier just trying out different games until you find one that suits you better.



I refuse to be told what I "Can" or "Cannot" do based on my job. The Developers have always supported the freedom to attempt as wide a variety of techniques as the playerbase wants to. Heck, we have surprised them with our ingenuity quite a few times now. It does not matter how a job is "Meant" to be played, or what role it's "Supposed" to have. We, the players, will find the role that is most effective for it, even if that role is benchwarming.

@Karinya:

Utsusemi's already been nerfed a couple times. I doubt the Devs are in any rush at all to nerf Utsusemi or Haste just because some Paladins complain. That is, more than they've already nerfed them.

Doesn't add anything.

Tenth Post

I am a Paladin. An old one, and a good one. I've always considered it one of my favorite jobs. Unlike many other posters here, however, I'm in favor of realistic additions to the job rather than nonsense. You want a complete overhaul of the cRatio system. Arcon wants a complete overhaul of the Enmity system. As far as I'm concerned, both ideas are rubbish since you may as well rewrite the entire game from scratch if you want to fundamentally alter the core game mechanics in such a way.

I'm not sure you're understanding what I said earlier, either. Utsusemi and Haste have already been nerfed multiple times in the game's history. I simply find it unlikely that these core attributes are ever going to be considered for yet another nerf simply because a few people are upset that their job is not #1.

I never said that any amount of complaining would stop a nerf. I said that some paltry complaining is not going to cause one.

Doesn't add anything.

Eleventh Post

The system is what the system is. FFXI is a game, it has rules, it has a system in place. When the ideal playstyle in that system does not coincide with the style you want to play, you can either adjust yourself to match the game, or you attempt to adjust the game to match you.

I don't call every idea rubbish. I call rubbish ideas rubbish. I'm not sitting here insulting anyone. If someone considers being told they're wrong insulting, that's their own problem.

I believe calling the system broken is a matter of perspective. Is it working the way Tanaka-san and the Development Team envisioned it should over a decade ago? Probably not. Is the current system defunct in such a way that it prevents players from playing the game? No. The game can be played perfectly fine. People have been playing it fine for years now, with the same system intact.

Do I think the system is broken? Naw. People can play in this system just fine. The only ones who can't are those who insist that they should be able to play optimally while playing the game "The way they want".

Do I think Paladin could use some adjustments? Definitely. But anything involving Defense is a lost cause. CDC and Ochain were monumental steps in the right direction. Sure, it's a localized boost since it requires two Empyreans, but it's an incredibly solid boost. Paladin needs to not be a waste of a party slot in order for it to be useful, as right now plenty of other jobs can serve as a better tank that deals more damage and takes less.

Doesn't add anything.

Twelfth Post

They've been able to do that for ... years.

Doesn't add anything.

Thirteenth Post

I'm not trolling and it's not word play. DD jobs being able to survive while maintaining capped Enmity and dealing damage is nothing new and has been happening for years. I've seen people tank Khimaira on Corsair =/. It's not hard for anyone to stay alive against an NM, and if the Devs were to make it harder, Paladins would simply suffer too since they're not really much better at staying alive than some other jobs (and some are just plain better than Paladin at staying alive).

Doesn't add anything.

Fourteenth Post

How is saying that other jobs can hit capped PDT with damage-mitigating abilities of equal or greater strength than a shield "Basing things on personal experience"? It has nothing to do with personal experience. It is simply how the game works. Paladin does not really have anything so unique in the damage mitigation department that other jobs are unable to reach the same defensive peaks while maintaining a stronger offense. Obviously, this excludes Ochain.

I never called you rubbish. I called ideas rubbish, whether they're yours or not. You take things too personally. I'm the only one being personally "attacked" in this thread, and I'm not even getting mad about it. I've already mentioned once or twice (honestly, why repeat myself 5 dozen times?), as have plenty of other posters of a similar mindset, that Paladin only really needs a proper offensive buff to make it relevant enough that it wouldn't be a complete and utter waste of a slot.

I mean, as far as Abyssea is concerned Paladin will always be a waste of a slot, but who cares? Abyssea is midgame content in a niche environment. Making Paladin interchangeable or even occasionally viable among DD tanks is more than sufficient for overworld content, and the way to do that is to give Paladin more of a punch. Considering the premise of the job, it's unlikely Paladin will ever really be "Top Dog" or "Absolutely Vital" in FFXI.

All that is said is that you want an offensive buff, while giving no ideas. Thus, doesn't add anything.

Up to 15 posts already?

If an idea here had potential I'd run with it. All I see in your post is:

"I want to play Dungeons and Dragons Online. I do not care that this is Final Fantasy XI, and is its own Entity with its own rules and mechanics. If Class A and Class B do not do what they do in other games, then the rules and mechanics are obviously flawed."

If you want to play a game that is not Final Fantasy XI, play a game that is not Final Fantasy XI. Meanwhile, those of us who can cope with the fact that there are certain fundamental things about the game that will always remain the same will be brainstorming ideas for the advancement of the Paladin job that are feasible to implement and actually address the problems Paladin has.

And for what it's worth, Byrth's post was directed at Zy, not me.

@Zy: I never said Paladin has never been the best at anything. I said, for the past few years, other jobs have been able to tank better than Paladin on pretty much every NM in the game. From a purely defensive standpoint? RDM does it way better, Dark Knight does it just as well, Monk does it better, Samurai can do it just as well, and Ninja can do it just as well depending on the NM. From an Enmity standpoint? Pretty much every DD in the game does it as well or better. From a Damage standpoint? Again, most jobs do it better.

This has nothing to do with personal experience. This has nothing to do with some Paladins sucking or some DDs being amazing. I've had the privilege of playing with some absolutely amazing Paladins, and I'm not a huge slouch myself. Other jobs can simply mitigate damage more consistently while dealing more damage and, thus, maintaining equal/greater enmity values and ending fights sooner.

Edit2: As for Paladin being the best damage mitigation right now, blame that on Ochain. It's an incredibly powerful shield, and I've mentioned another half dozen times in this thread alone that I'm leaving it out of the picture for now.

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Sixteenth Post

Last I checked, you determined a game's genre based on what it is; you don't determine what it is based on the game's genre.

If it is so disturbing to call FFXI an MMORPG, call it something else. Or just call it FFXI. I thought you were the one telling me to think outside the box in your Shuriken thread. Now you want FFXI to conform to the box or else? Classy.

Finally, if I piss you off so much, you're welcome to vent about me on other sites where you're free to call me a doo doo head without fear of moderator reprisal. Link me for lulz please.

Doesn't add anything.

Seventeenth Post

Adjusting fundamental mechanics formulas is like changing the rules of Monopoly 5 hours into the game because you don't think collecting $200 every time you pass go is enough for people who don't have Boardwalk and Park Place.

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Eighteenth Post

If you can't tell the difference between adjusting fStr and cRatio/pDif calculations and adjusting the EXP loss curve then I just don't know what else to tell you.

Oh, and I'm not trolling. I'm simply putting up with your repeated personal attacks without retaliating or reporting you like a champ. Does that really hurt your feelings so much? You seem pretty mad.

Edit: Nvm, he's way more mad.

Doesn't add anything.

Guess what post came next?