Paladin: Possibilities

[Arcon]

I personally find this hilarious.

Red Mage has been using this argument for a long, long time, even longer than any other job and it has got them nowhere.

Summoner was in the same boat as Red Mage (and in a way still is until 75), and they clammored just as loudly (until 75).

Scholar, now that they're in full identity-crisis mode, are in the same boat as Red Mage since they are literally a White Mage and Black Mage wrapped into one and specifically meant to compete with the roles of those jobs instead of having it's own niche.

And now Paladins finally woke up and smelled the coffee, and want to use the same exact argument in that "this is what we're supposed to do"?

Allow me to be the first to say, this entire argument will collapse right on top of you. Red Mages and Summoners had to accept the reality that the game does not follow the history nor the lore behind them and Square will not take the steps to change that. So I have to say what literally thousands have said to them and say "deal with it".

I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere? Admitted, RDM isn't as useful as it used to be, it can still buff very well and almost heal as good as WHM. Maybe not on highest tier NMs, when high level cure spams would be required, but that, again, is kinda how it's supposed to be. White Mage should remain the best healer. Apart from that, lower tier cures, but still useful, almost the same buffs as WHM, at least the ones that matter, better enfeebling options, Refresh II, Phalanx II, Dia III, light nuking, etc. They may not be used for healing as much as they used to, but in my opinion, Lv75 was a bit unadjusted in that regard.

SMNs also are still SMNs, still useful, still good soloers (better than before), can be used to hold/kite/track mobs, magical/physical attacks, less MP worries, more avatars, more strategic uses, etc.

And all I hear SCH asking for is Cure V, which I can somewhat understand, but don't feel strongly either way (and I am a SCH as well). They can nuke on par with BLMs, have more strategic options, although most people are simply too lazy to utilize them.

Sorry, but I don't really see your argument at all. The game does follow the history and lore behind the job descriptions, and SE has repeatedly released updates to reflect that. The only exception I can think of is NIN. It took them years until they recognized NIN as a tank, because that's not what they wanted them to be, but what the players made them. And players held on to that idea so much, that they had no choice but to give in, and to this day NIN still retains its original qualities. All other jobs still retain their original ideas and qualities, SAM can tank decently with the right gear, DRG has utility functions, THF is a bit gimped in the Stealing/Mugging department, but that's it, they even got a huge TH boost now.

All in all, SE has done a nice job keeping the jobs at their respective duties. And as I said before, it's not even that PLD is inherently flawed, but the current game simply doesn't allow them to play their role as intended.

[Ravenmore]

You haven't read any of the rdm melee threads? How bout jack of all trades yet SE decided out the blue to nerf rdm tanking after they used rdm/nin on JoL and AV in thier little vid.

[Greatguardian]

I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere?

It got them an Accuracy buff on Composure and a Sword WS that decreases Magic Evasion. As a RDM who isn't obsessed with melee for some godforsaken reason, these buffs are annoying at best. Why? Opportunity cost. The more tweaks added to a useless feature, the fewer tweaks left for a useful one. Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.

And as I said before, it's not even that PLD is inherently flawed, but the current game simply doesn't allow them to play their role as intended.

The idea of a Blood Tank in FFXI is inherently flawed. In that sense, "Pure" Paladin is most definitely flawed from the get-go. I'm having trouble determining the scale with which you're talking about the "current game" here though. If you mean "Post-Abyssea/ToAU where DDs are stronger and take as little damage", I agree it keeps Pld/Nin from keeping up properly. If you mean "Final Fantasy XI with its current pDif/cRatio/Enmity functions", then you're right that it does prevent bloodtanking Paladin from ever being useful but I don't think it warrants a change on the scale which you tend to propose.

[Sarick]

Anyone wanting to put up a "counter-argument" should please, please, PLEASE, read this paragraph over and over and over and over... and over and over... and over and over.

Thank you.

Something to think about.

I once heard a saying that stated. "Sometimes the best defense is a good offense"

This is what makes monks counter tanking effective. With counterbash added or reprisal modified this might comply with the wise wisdom I quoted above. Even a job meant for taking damage and abuse should be allowed to utilize offensive damage mitigation. It's just common sense.

Take a for example, warships carry phalanx cannons to destroy incoming rockets before they hit. This is what phalanx really is as well but damage isn't reflected it's countered with a null effect. Reprisal in my book is just a form of a reactive armor added to the shield. To bad it doesn't last very long and has a relatively long recast.

[Ravenmore]

I know some would say rl is not the same as the game but we already use our weapons as a defensive tool though parrying sucks and it not relieable. Thats still not a good reason why a shield couldn't be used as a in a simlier way for offense.

Sar though when you wrote reactive armor first thing I thought of was the M-1's armor and a pld getting a shoulder fired RPG throw at them. See if PLD can "Tank" that(ok that was a pretty bad pun) .

[Mrbeansman]

You're typing an awful lot of words so far without saying a thing. In case you haven't noticed, this isn't the BlueGartr forum where you can be a d-bag for the sake of being one.

For anyone making these kinds of post you do know that acting like this is a great way to get shit canned into the alligator fuck house by Isladar right?

[Carth]

I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere? Admitted, RDM isn't as useful as it used to be, it can still buff very well and almost heal as good as WHM. Maybe not on highest tier NMs, when high level cure spams would be required, but that, again, is kinda how it's supposed to be. White Mage should remain the best healer. Apart from that, lower tier cures, but still useful, almost the same buffs as WHM, at least the ones that matter, better enfeebling options, Refresh II, Phalanx II, Dia III, light nuking, etc. They may not be used for healing as much as they used to, but in my opinion, Lv75 was a bit unadjusted in that regard.

Go on the RDM forums, because you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Seriously, go read it, because the above quote does not touch anything I have said.

SMNs also are still SMNs, still useful, still good soloers (better than before), can be used to hold/kite/track mobs, magical/physical attacks, less MP worries, more avatars, more strategic uses, etc.

Before 75. During the era when SMNs are just gimped WHMs because SE never bothered to fix the inherent flaw of SMN (their avatars suck without doing 1k+ blood pacts).

And all I hear SCH asking for is Cure V, which I can somewhat understand, but don't feel strongly either way (and I am a SCH as well). They can nuke on par with BLMs, have more strategic options, although most people are simply too lazy to utilize them.

No, SCH was better than BLM and right on par with WHM before Abyssea, because they were MP efficient. They casted more nukes and had similar methods of healing to a WHM. Now that they're second-rate to both jobs they finally realized who they were.

Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.

While I support melee buffs (because the job has no direction from what I've seen thus far), I personally don't care what RDM get as long as it's a good, or even just a decent update.

[Eeek]

It got them an Accuracy buff on Composure and a Sword WS that decreases Magic Evasion. As a RDM who isn't obsessed with melee for some godforsaken reason, these buffs are annoying at best. Why? Opportunity cost. The more tweaks added to a useless feature, the fewer tweaks left for a useful one. Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.

Oh God, I couldn't agree with this more.

(Although I do really like Composure for the buff duration bonuses.)

I'm building a melee set just for goofing off solo on RDM/NIN or RDM/BLU, but any RDM should be able to recognize that RDM is a bottom-of-the-barrel DD. RDM's strength is in party play, and while RDM isn't a premiere healer as in the 75cap days (and it never should have been the most sought-after healer), it's still a strong support mage. RDM cripples mobs with enfeebles while curing and nuking as needed.

I don't know why so few RDMs in-game take meleeing seriously while forum RDMs (across several forums) harp on it endlessly. It's like they will not let go of a 7-year-old grudge. I'd take their complaints more seriously if players were limited to one leveled job per character.

RDM isn't the only mage that can wield weapons. All of them can.

RDM is plenty strong even in the age of Abyssea. If my LS/friends have all the required jobs covered for NM killing sprees, then the first thing that happens is that I'm asked to change to RDM. The added support, nukes, and especially enfeebles make a very noticeable difference. I enjoy the hell out of it.

[Zyeriis]

Huh. I guess I confused this thread with one of the five freaking hundred (exaggeration) other threads on Paladin that I've responded to. After a while, it does get incredibly tiring of making what you deem "constructive" responses because people will just create a new thread the next day anyways and any effort I expended writing a nice, thoughtful suggestion would be for naught.

Can't say I didn't see that pathetic deflection coming: "i was wrong but i wasn't because I did what I said I did, just not here". Why'd you even bother posting? You know, aside from not actually contributing.

If it hasn't been made clear already, I can't stand repeating myself. With that said, I'm also not even required to post my own ideas for Paladin when discussing yours. I'll tell you the same thing I told Akujima in his thread. If you want to post a thesis, you have to be prepared to defend it from criticism. If your idea has holes, people will point out those holes. If your idea has flaws, people will take issue with the flaws. If your idea is closed minded (it is), people will be less likely to pay you an open mind when considering it.

If it hasn't been made clear yet, when I interjected, you had yet to say anything about anything. Do I need to go quote you again? If you want to post about a flaw in some one elses idea, you have to actually talk about one of those ideas. If you can't do that, and you weren't, then you're going to be called out on it.

A complete overhaul of the game's mechanics affects every single job in the game, not just Paladin. You say "Oh, well, it may be a slight DD nerf but really that's okay because they're too strong anyways". That doesn't mean it's right to ostracize each of the other 19 jobs in the game for the sake of buffing Paladin in such a way that, even then, only some of the game's Paladins would actually be happier.

Yes, because Paladin is the only job that would be positively affected by such a reconstruction of a system that you admit is flawed, and has been flawed from the beginning. Your opinion of whether or not it is necessary is irrelevant to it being a possible solution. It may not be a "necessary" tweak but, then again, there really isn't such a thing as a "necessary" tweak to anything in the game. They didn't "have" to "fix" hundreds of things over the years (such as having to "set" your mog-house) but they did.

Edit: You seem to fail to realize what revising the scale of str vs. vit would actually mean. You can call it a nerf all you want but you are only saying that because its a reduction. You also seem to think that it would only affect players but, here's the thing: it would affect enemies as well. It would make VIT/defense actually relevant, stat-wise and THAT's it. The entire game's damage would be scaled back, yes. So what? It would be the exact same thing, except everything and everyone would be tougher. From there, they could scale the enemies up to the already mentioned "level 110+" marks to make them challenging enough to warrant the use of PLD and blood tanking. Note that I'm stating both things as separate entities rather than just one (as you have done before). PLD wouldn't be the only blood tank but, you're right in regards to it being the best. I want to make blood tanking relevant, as it should be. "Evasion" tanking isn't actually "tanking", its contradictory to the term.

You need to learn to take and respond to criticism. All I've seen from you is rage, "Where is your argument????", "Stop Flaming", and "You're not contributing anything". I don't need to present an alternative in order to dislike your idea and post contrary to it. If I say you're wrong, you need to either accept that and change your presentation or deny that and show me why you're right. That's how a discussion works.

And you need to learn how to give criticism. All I've seen from you is "This is WHY Paladin is flawed", "You're wrong because I said so", "U mad!". I don't need to defend against criticisms that aren't there.

There's a difference between "pointing out a flaw and trying to figure out a way to get rid of that flaw" (called being constructive) and just knocking an idea because you think it would be too much work (called being lazy) or just saying the idea is flawed and putting absolutely no effort into proposing an alternative. You can claim you're trying to "discuss" something but you offer nothing other than: "you're wrong". Discussions aren't: "Here's an idea" > "You're wrong" > "Here's an idea" > "You're wrong", and this is disregarding the spew of posts you made before even your ever-so-elegant "pointing out flaws" posts where you said a lot of words but, ultimately said nothing at all.