[DEV1010] Pet job adjustments

[Korpg]

Wait, you pull hate off of your avatar? Your avatar's Blood Pacts must really suck if you can pull hate off of an avatar, including meleeing, which I know you are so fond of doing while you are a SMN.

Before you say that avatars are ment to tank, think about it for a minute. Do you know of any avatar that has the ability to provoke? Or, outside of doing any BP:Rs, take hate off of a group of people and place it directly on the avatar? Only way that an avatar can keep constant hate is for that avatar to, you know, do decent damage, something along the lines of 2k damage every 45 seconds along with hits in between those 45 seconds. If you are doing that and still taking hate away from the avatar, take off that enmity + gear you have wearing, because that is the only way you would be able to take hate off of your avatar. Unless you do something stupid, like go as SMN/WAR and provoke every 30 seconds to keep your avatar alive while the mob beats the heck out of you....

[Dallas]

Wait, you pull hate off of your avatar? Your avatar's Blood Pacts must really suck if you can pull hate off of an avatar, including meleeing, which I know you are so fond of doing while you are a SMN.

Before you say that avatars are ment to tank, think about it for a minute. Do you know of any avatar that has the ability to provoke? Or, outside of doing any BP:Rs, take hate off of a group of people and place it directly on the avatar? Only way that an avatar can keep constant hate is for that avatar to, you know, do decent damage, something along the lines of 2k damage every 45 seconds along with hits in between those 45 seconds. If you are doing that and still taking hate away from the avatar, take off that enmity + gear you have wearing, because that is the only way you would be able to take hate off of your avatar. Unless you do something stupid, like go as SMN/WAR and provoke every 30 seconds to keep your avatar alive while the mob beats the heck out of you....

Re: Unless I do something stupid...

I use Hvergelmir for 600 damage critical for a normal swing. Before, I was dealing 200 damage per crit, up to 4 times per attack round. I only use 36% haste because /SAM is suicidal. The ONLY way to live is to stop attacking or get a monster critical hit BP from Garuda. That usually kills the mob, leaving 45 seconds before I can do it again. One hit without a BP will pull hate.

Please, try to get somewhere in the ballpark of my damage capabilities before telling me I need to sub /WAR and provoke to get hate. It's VERY easy to do, and you obviously haven't tried. I've been doing it since my antlion trial for my OA3. Good weapon, lots of haste, capped staff skill. Get to it.

Can't say I encountered that problem yet but I have farsha, attack 2-4axe and +2 everything and I constantly need to pull pet off monsters like Glamdring says

BST have Snarl, and it is used all the time. My suggestion is to give SMN, PUP and DRG access to the skill when subbed.

[Korpg]

Re: Unless I do something stupid...

I use Hvergelmir for 600 damage critical for a normal swing. Before, I was dealing 200 damage per crit, up to 4 times per attack round. I only use 36% haste because /SAM is suicidal. The ONLY way to live is to stop attacking or get a monster critical hit BP from Garuda. That usually kills the mob, leaving 45 seconds before I can do it again. One hit without a BP will pull hate.

Please, try to get somewhere in the ballpark of my damage capabilities before telling me I need to sub /WAR and provoke to get hate. It's VERY easy to do, and you obviously haven't tried. I've been doing it since my antlion trial for my OA3. Good weapon, lots of haste, capped staff skill. Get to it.

Sorry, I won't gimp myself on what my actual job is supposed to be when I'm in a party as SMN. Which is to provide both the support needed for the party and outstanding damage without having to have one more person for the WHM to have to worry about.

600 crits? I get 1k crits on my WAR. Why should I do anything in a party situation where I needed to be at my best come as something that does not remotely resemble a damage dealer, at least not in the position you are referring to. And also, while I'm WAR, I can do nice things as being able to proc red/blue, tank, and keep the mages alive, while still taking hits like a pro. You even admitted it, you can't take hits at all.

If I'm a Summoner during an event where they need me for a particular purpose, as in pulling, doing outstanding damage without feeding the mob TP, or helping to support everyone, I do that job, and I do it well. I don't try to be somebody I'm not. I have other jobs to do physical damage in massive quantities.

Go level WAR, and put your time into getting a Ukon. At least that will be one weapon not wasted.

[Dallas]

600 crits? I get 1k crits on my WAR. Why should I do anything in a party situation where I needed to be at my best come as something that does not remotely resemble a damage dealer, at least not in the position you are referring to. And also, while I'm WAR, I can do nice things as being able to proc red/blue, tank, and keep the mages alive, while still taking hits like a pro. You even admitted it, you can't take hits at all.

I love this argument. It's a fabulous argument. Now, I want you to be ABSOLUTELY SURE you never admit to me that you have ever cast Cure IV as a SMN/WHM. If you do, the math goes something like this:

600/1000 = 60% = fake DD
400/1200 = 33% = fake healer
600/1200 = 50% = fake healer throwing all SMN gear out

Yes, WAR hit more, but WHM cure more. It gets better... today I was breaking 700 damage with ease (769 is my new record), so I have not found my potential yet. Retribution broke 1600. I'm working through the kinks of an obviously superior weapon, which if you will notice, has 0% cure potency.

This thread is for things that are wrong with pet jobs. I guess we can add "fix lazy SMN" to the list.

[Korpg]

I love this argument. It's a fabulous argument. Now, I want you to be ABSOLUTELY SURE you never admit to me that you have ever cast Cure IV as a SMN/WHM. If you do, the math goes something like this:

600/1000 = 60% = fake DD
400/1200 = 33% = fake healer
600/1200 = 50% = fake healer throwing all SMN gear out

Yes, WAR hit more, but WHM cure more. It gets better... today I was breaking 700 damage with ease (769 is my new record), so I have not found my potential yet. Retribution broke 1600. I'm working through the kinks of an obviously superior weapon, which if you will notice, has 0% cure potency.

This thread is for things that are wrong with pet jobs. I guess we can add "fix lazy SMN" to the list.

First off, I have never done anything in a group as SMN/WHM. I am not a healer, I will never be a healer as SMN, and trying to do so is just an insult to SMNs and WHMs everywhere. My SMN is there for two thing, and that is to pop out 5k+ (10k if AF3 set bonus procs) Blood Pacts every 45 seconds, without giving the mob TP in the process, and pulling links off of the tank and having Ramuh tank 3+ mobs at one time if needed.

What you are suggesting as a melee SMN would be to lose 2 of the most essential atmas a DD SMN uses to actually do the type of damage it needs to do. Probably 3, since I doubt you would use Minkin at all either. You also lose 3 of the most essential atmas a tanking SMN needs to have on to actually be able to hold 3+ mobs without dying quickly. Hell, just yesterday I tanked Funeral Apkallu and a MPK attempt from another group to steal our bird by pulling Athamas and having one player die behind us, which Garuda was able to tank both of them with ease. Can you do that while trying to pop out 600+ crit hits?

What you are doing is sending a back line job to the front where it does not belong. While your style of play is acceptable to you, do not refer "lazy SMN" into the equation, because some people might try what you are suggesting and end up wiping their party in the process. If enough people do that, others are going to label SMN as "loljobs" like DRG was way back then and PUPs are now. I don't want your ideas to make SMN into a "loljob."

[Dallas]

First off, I have never done anything in a group as SMN/WHM.

You should have picked Door #1. Your playstyle does less damage, and heals less (I melee as /WHM because I need reraise). I call that "lack of support" playstyle, since it centers around refusing to do anything outside of BPs twice every 45 seconds.

I hope your hMP setup is in place, you are going to need it soon.

[Korpg]

You should have picked Door #1. Your playstyle does less damage, and heals less (I melee as /WHM because I need reraise). I call that "lack of support" playstyle, since it centers around refusing to do anything outside of BPs twice every 45 seconds.

I hope your hMP setup is in place, you are going to need it soon.

First off, think. I solo'd my SMN to 75, and I said in a group I'm never /WHM. Pre-Abyssea I was /SCH. For Sublimation. Post Abyssea I'm /RDM. For Dispel, Convert, and eventually Refresh. I have not rested for mp ever since Abyssea came out, because I actually have refresh atmas on, and free avatars even without refresh or avatar's favor. If I wanted my avatars to melee, they can, without worry about mp, without worry about getting myself killed in the process. When I blood pact, the refresh from Minkin alone is enough to gain the mp usage from blood pacts. If my group needs club or staff blue procs, guess what, I'm there ready to help them out with that too. Even though I don't melee often, doesn't mean I don't melee at all. I just know what is expected from me and I don't fool myself in turning my job into a substandard melee because SE gave SMNs a staff that happens to have a few more damage than a Great Katana.

Try using Beyond, Minkin, and Ultimate once. If you have the gear to give yourself free avatars, and a lot of Pet:MAB gear for BP:Rs, you too will find yourself asking why you got your staff in the first place.

[Dfoley]

First off, I have never done anything in a group as SMN/WHM. I am not a healer, I will never be a healer as SMN, and trying to do so is just an insult to SMNs and WHMs everywhere. My SMN is there for two thing, and that is to pop out 5k+ (10k if AF3 set bonus procs) Blood Pacts every 45 seconds, without giving the mob TP in the process, and pulling links off of the tank and having Ramuh tank 3+ mobs at one time if needed.

If enough people do that, others are going to label SMN as "loljobs" like DRG was way back then and PUPs are now. I don't want your ideas to make SMN into a "loljob."

2 major problems with your post
1) Almost every summoner leveled it as a smn/whm pre Abyssea so lets not like or try to diss it. If you didn't do it that way you leveled it entirely as a smn burn party in which case it makes you an lol or bandwagon summoner.

2) I must have missed the part where my pup is an lol job now. I out DD almost every job I play with. A fully geared pup with burts (lvl 89 weapon) can completly trash about any other job as far as dd goes, and is very close to a monk in DD from the master alone. Add in a pet thats doing 2.5k ws every 10-15s. Just make sure you look at 'how many kills can you get a minute' not 'how fast can you trash a single mob'. Trashing 1 mob super fast is nice, but if you have to wait 45 seconds per mob, lol. I suggest you come to ragnarok and I will show you how lol a pop isnt.

3) (super secret finale) Stop making up numbers, all of you. 5k+ (af3+2 bonus of 10K) may be possible but they sure arent common. And criting for 600 with Hvergelmir? Really? come one now, maybe with aftermath up but no where near commonly. Lets be honest, your not sitting on 25% gear haste and you are not even coming close to being able to get near the 80% reduction cap, so at best your doing 600 dmg max a swing, 200-300 average and all of that with a slow slow slow delay compared to everything else.

[Korpg]

2 major problems with your post
1) Almost every summoner leveled it as a smn/whm pre Abyssea so lets not like or try to diss it. If you didn't do it that way you leveled it entirely as a smn burn party in which case it makes you an lol or bandwagon summoner.

I had SMN/WHM before Abyssea, but only when I solo'd. Just for Reraise. If you read my post, you would see that I said in a group that I don't go as SMN/WHM. Because in a group I am not the main heal. I'm not even sub-heal. I'm in that group to do a massive amount of damage in a short period of time.

2) I must have missed the part where my pup is an lol job now. I out DD almost every job I play with. A fully geared pup with burts (lvl 89 weapon) can completly trash about any other job as far as dd goes, and is very close to a monk in DD from the master alone. Add in a pet thats doing 2.5k ws every 10-15s. Just make sure you look at 'how many kills can you get a minute' not 'how fast can you trash a single mob'. Trashing 1 mob super fast is nice, but if you have to wait 45 seconds per mob, lol. I suggest you come to ragnarok and I will show you how lol a pop isnt.

I didn't say your PUP is lol, I said that generic PUP is lol. You worked hard to make your Puppetmaster good, and thats good for you. But the majority of PUPs out there can't do the type of damage that most other DDs can. Even with their BLM frames. I didn't attack you, I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just stating a general idea about a job that most people have.

3) (super secret finale) Stop making up numbers, all of you. 5k+ (af3+2 bonus of 10K) may be possible but they sure arent common. And criting for 600 with Hvergelmir? Really? come one now, maybe with aftermath up but no where near commonly. Lets be honest, your not sitting on 25% gear haste and you are not even coming close to being able to get near the 80% reduction cap, so at best your doing 600 dmg max a swing, 200-300 average and all of that with a slow slow slow delay compared to everything else.

Heavenly Strike, with Atma of Beyond, Ultimate, and Minkin (+50 INT part) can do upwards of 5k damage on non-NM mobs. There are too many times in exp parties where I oneshot mobs that the puller just pulled, before anyone even engaged. With Set bonus on AF3, you can do double the damage than normal, so 10k isn't impossible. Even Karbuncle noted that.

As for critting for 600 on Emp staff, since nobody on Asura has made that staff yet, and probably won't unless they really want to waste their time like that, I will never verify nor deny that claim.

But you are right on the money that SMN is not a physical DD. They don't have the gear for it, nor the skill (sorry, but 335 skill on a weapon without any other upgrades is just not going to cut it when it is very easy for other jobs to get close to 400 skill on another weapon, like my GA skill on WAR is at 384 just on AF3 body and merits alone) to justify meleeing with it.

[Fyreus]

First off, I have never done anything in a group as SMN/WHM. I am not a healer, I will never be a healer as SMN, and trying to do so is just an insult to SMNs and WHMs everywhere. My SMN is there for two thing, and that is to pop out 5k+ (10k if AF3 set bonus procs) Blood Pacts every 45 seconds, without giving the mob TP in the process, and pulling links off of the tank and having Ramuh tank 3+ mobs at one time if needed.

What you are suggesting as a melee SMN would be to lose 2 of the most essential atmas a DD SMN uses to actually do the type of damage it needs to do. Probably 3, since I doubt you would use Minkin at all either. You also lose 3 of the most essential atmas a tanking SMN needs to have on to actually be able to hold 3+ mobs without dying quickly. Hell, just yesterday I tanked Funeral Apkallu and a MPK attempt from another group to steal our bird by pulling Athamas and having one player die behind us, which Garuda was able to tank both of them with ease. Can you do that while trying to pop out 600+ crit hits?

What you are doing is sending a back line job to the front where it does not belong. While your style of play is acceptable to you, do not refer "lazy SMN" into the equation, because some people might try what you are suggesting and end up wiping their party in the process. If enough people do that, others are going to label SMN as "loljobs" like DRG was way back then and PUPs are now. I don't want your ideas to make SMN into a "loljob."

You realize we all play smn differently? You also realize that you can be replaces by any other class easily in a group? His point is that he's using a different play style that se supports but the current lv75 -20enmity avatar hate mechanics are half sAsed and needs a patch such as every game goes through. Hitting a mob for 34dmg and wearing -9enmity YY body and having fenrir have to hit the same mob for 200ish damage (he pulled) to even get it's attention is a pain tbh.