A Ninja without Throwing...

[Shoko]

Hi, RNG is useless and is already out of a job, it is the absolute worst DD in the game, everything else does way more damage then it does, and its obnoxious when rngs stand far away and pull hate, so most intelligent people won't even bring RNGs to anything.

And if you bothered to read the thread, you would of noticed repeatedly how shurikens need to be completely broken, like 300+++ damage to even be half useful. 120-130 is jackishtnothing and would do nothing. Can you please read the effing thread before you post garbage?



Same thing to you too, learn game mechanics and read the thread, your uninformed opinions serve no purpose in a debate about game mechanics and math. Fixing ranged damage mechanics so they're useful at max level would break the game. The only possible solution is letting haste affect ranged delay, and that would not fix throwing by itself.

I only came back to this thread to respond to this, but you really make obnoxious and stupid posts. How's that NIN treating ya now that you don't have to RDM/DRK refresh and stun at Tiamat anymore? lol

Actually I really don't know you, but from what I realize, you're a dense person that strives to make himself feel better by dumbing down everyone's ideas. Also one that feels NIN will be playing at an optimal pace (BRD, Haste, DNC) 100% of the time, which just isn't possible.

Also, a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg within Abyssea and outside of it. Peace. This will be the last post ever addressing anything you say, I'd rather listen to everyone else's post (including GG) instead of your babble.

[wish12oz]

I only came back to this thread to respond to this, but you really make obnoxious and stupid posts. How's that NIN treating ya now that you don't have to RDM/DRK refresh and stun at Tiamat anymore? lol

If you know of my comments about Tiamat, maybe you should look for the math I posted about fighting Tiamat with PO, and why no RDM would have enough MP to do it the way they wanted. And yes, the game is always more fun when when you don't have to play with people who cannot keep up with what the new best strategies are, and how to use them effectively.

Actually I really don't know you, but from what I realize, you're a dense person that strives to make himself feel better by dumbing down everyone's ideas. Also one that feels NIN will be playing at an optimal pace (BRD, Haste, DNC) 100% of the time, which just isn't possible.

This is entirely wrong, you do not need anything but gear, haste spell and marches to hit the attack delay reduction cap.
Keep in mind that any good bard will have at least a +2 march horn and +2 hands for march+1, and if they don't, through minimal effort you can acquire both of them for the bard if it's someone you hang out with a lot.

BRD with +2 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+3 Total):
Advancing is 10.9375%
Victory is 14.0625%
We'll say 11 and 14 to make it easy.

Should that bard have a Ghorn, or after the update should they add a +3 march instrument, which they will eventually, just look at how every other song is getting a +3 instrument. (except ballad)

BRD with +3 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+4 Total):
Advancing is 12.5%
Victory is 15.625%
We'll say 12 and 16 to make it easy.

Base dual wield of Ninja at Lvl 90 is 35%.
Haste spell is 15%
Gear haste caps at 25% (and is very very very easy to reach)
gear + spell + both marches+3
25 + 15 + 11 + 14 = 65% haste

gear + spell + both marches+4
25 + 15 + 12 + 16 = 68% haste

so 65% haste for march+3, 68% haste for march+4

If we assume you have normal everyday ninja gear along with base dual wield.
Base DW 35%
Suppanomimi 5%
AF3+2 head 5%
af1 body 5%
This brings DW from 35% to 50%

Adding 50% DW to 65% haste bring your delay reduction to 82.5%, 80% is the cap

So as you can see, with normal gear ninja easily has access to, and a bard with march+3, which is also easy to get, you can easily exceed the delay reduction cap.

Also, a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg within Abyssea and outside of it. Peace. This will be the last post ever addressing anything you say, I'd rather listen to everyone else's post (including GG) instead of your babble.

This is also incorrect, here's why:

The only RNG I know has a gandiva, so we'll be using the gandiva for comparison, and assuming an ACC rate of 100% because I don't feel like applying 95% acc to everything, because that will just tip the scales in the NIN's favor even more.

Kannagi+kamome delay is (210+180) 390.
Apply 80% delay reduction to that, and you get 78.
Lets look at attacking now, 2 attacks per 78 delay, 54% of the time you get an extra attack, so we can safely say, you get 3 attacks per round. (apoc 15% TA, eponas 3% TA (18% TA) eponas 3% DA, brutal 5% DA, /war 10% DA (18% DA) so we do 18+18+18 = 54.
So ninja comes out to 3 attacks per 78 delay time.

Gandiva+arrow delay is (490+90) 580.
For the sake of this arguement we're going to assume the rng is standing far away, and only shooting, so he's going to have a 580 delay between attacks.

-------math from here down is incorrect, see below post for correction-------
Now, lets say we have a 50% rapid shot rate (which is way more then you have) So 50% of the time the bow delay is reduced to 0. so we can take away half the 490, to make it 245, 245+90 = 335.
Now lets apply all the snapshot availible to the 245, Lets say you have a 5% body, 3% belt and 5% hat...... (mirke, impulse, af3+2 hat, and Im not even sure the hat is 5%) and velocity shot is 10%.
5+3+5+10 = 23% snapshot
245 x .77 = 188.65
So we'll say your new delay is 188+90 for 278.
So RNG gets 1 attack for every 278 delay.

278 divided by 78 is 3.5641etc
we'll say 3.5
So basically, ninja gets 3.5 attack rounds per RNG attack round under the best possible circumstances for RNG.
At 3 hits/round NIN gets (3.5x3) 10.5 attacks per a RNG's 1 attack.
Looking at just melee attacks, 1 shot from a RNG needs to do as much as 10.5 attacks from a ninja, for the RNG to be on even ground.


Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage, so we'll leave WS damage comparisons out of this. But we will talk about WS frequency.
A good RNG will almost have a 4 hit inside abyssea, so we'll say they have a 4 hit.
My NIN gets just under 5tp/hit, and 11 from WSing. Which means I need 22.25 hits between WS's, at 3 hits/round this means I need 7.5 rounds of attacks between WS's.

So which happens faster? 3 rounds from a RNG, or 7.5 rounds from a NIN?
If we look at the thread higher up, it says we get 3.5 rounds on nin per round on RNG, so in those 3 rounds for RNG to get 100 TP, a NIN gets 10.5 rounds.
What this means is a NIN actually gets MORE WS's then a RNG in the same amount of time.

How much more?
well, if NIN gets 10.5 rounds and needs 7.5 every time a RNG gets 100TP, that means in the time it takes a RNG to get 200TP, NIN gets 21 rounds, which is -almost- enough to have gained 300tp. If the RNG wasnt mashing on his ranged attack macro as fast as possible and getting every shot off as soon as possible, the NIN would actually reach the 22.5 rounds needed to get 300 tp.
So basically, for every 2 WS's the RNG gets, the NIN gets 3.

What does all this mean?
It means every RNG WS needs to do 1.5x as much damage as the NINs, and Every attack the RNG makes needs to equal 10.5 attacks by the NIN for the RNG to stay even in damage with the NIN, and this is assuming everything is in the RNGs favor, 50% rapid shot, a 4 hit, max snapshot, and very little fumbling between attacks.

So, while actually playing the game is it even remotely realistic for a RNG to keep up?
Absolutely not.
But feel free to provide your own indept analysis to counter me, I welcome the chance to debate this with you.