A Ninja without Throwing...

[wish12oz]

Here, I spent 5 min out in altep fighting dolls, I did all of 4 WS's, here they are.
A mithkabob and berserk were my only buffs aside from atma/cruor buffs.
The last weak WS I did with the mob at like 10%, it was only 1 of the 3 hits Hi usually gets, and was to show what a single hit of Hi can do on those weak dolls.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2.../weakdolls.jpg

With a stalwarts or minuet or chaos roll, any sort of attack buff really, probably even Dia2, would easily push me over into the 6-7k range. Anything else you would like to not prove?

[Charismatic]

With zerk and food you match the damage he does /SAM, yeah... that proved me wrong in that Blade: Hi is as powerful as Jishnu's Radiance.

[wish12oz]

With zerk and food you match the damage he does /SAM, yeah... that proved me wrong in that Blade: Hi is as powerful as Jishnu's Radiance.

Smart RNGs always sub SAM?
I fail to see how using the job abilities you always have is cheating. I also doubt he was doing 6-7k every time, completely unbuffed, but then, you could always go take your own SS's and prove it. Go for it, I would love to see it.
And what kind of gimp would be out exping or whatever doing dominion ops without at least cheap food?

[Charismatic]

And what kind of gimp would be out exping or whatever doing dominion ops without at least cheap food?

Oh, i dunno... probably the kind that oneshots them without it >.>
I'm pretty sure if when you engage an enemy, hit your WS macro... then the enemy dies, without using any food, that using food is irrelevant.

And I never said anything was cheating, stop putting words in my mouth. But yes, you have clearly convinced me that Blade: Hi is as strong as Jishnu's Radiance when the NIN is buffed and the RNG is not. Obviously this puts the weaponskills on equal footing.

[wish12oz]

Oh, i dunno... probably the kind that oneshots them without it >.>
I'm pretty sure if when you engage an enemy, hit your WS macro... then the enemy dies, without using any food, that using food is irrelevant.

Because you never do anything besides WS. So Only WSing matters.
And you never provided any evidence aside from 'cause i said so' to prove Jishnus does more then 200 damage to those dolls, at least I went out and killed a few of them and took SS's.

And I never said anything was cheating, stop putting words in my mouth. But yes, you have clearly convinced me that Blade: Hi is as strong as Jishnu's Radiance when the NIN is buffed and the RNG is not. Obviously this puts the weaponskills on equal footing.

Cause I'm sure your RNG friend wasn't using hasso, or velocity shot, or cruor buffs, or atmas, or whatever else, so that berserk from my SJ was such a huge buff right? And I'm sorry, I wasn't aware we were dealing with the poor crowd where people cant afford cheap food, and weren't using it while exping. When did not using food while exping become acceptable? When did exping without 2 BRDs or BRD+COR or 2BRDs and a COR become acceptable for that matter......


But anyway~
The point I was making originally was that the WS damage is close enough that a damage comparison between the two is not needed. By what you have said we've established that in 3 WS's without effort or high spikes in damage from TA's or DA's +allhitcrits on my part, I averaged between 0% and 15% lower WS damage then you said your friend was doing with jishnus. And all you did was loleyeballit, which means its probably a much lower average then you think.
And this is exactly the point I was making.
A RNG doing 15% more WS damage than a NIN is not going to save it. The RNG's WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then the NINs for it to matter, because the NIN does 2.4x more WS's then the RNG.
To explain this clearly to you, unless your friend is doing 14k WS's, my NIN would do more overall WS damage then he does after fighting stuff for more then 10 min, and overall damage over time is what matters. Not to mention the fact that in the time it takes for a perfectly geared RNG to shoot once, a NIN gets 18 hits in.....

[Greatguardian]

Obviously the only real answer is that MNK is better than both NIN and RNG. 7k WS? Pshawwww.



Also, not using Red Curry Buns fulltime (or at least Bison Steak on trash mobs) when they're 40k/stack (6k/3hr food for steak) and you (read: your friend) have an Empyrean Weapon is just insulting to the bow.

[Charismatic]

I don't see how not using food when it's not doing much of anything for you is an insult to anything. If you're one shotting without food, how is it an insult not to use it?
You guys make no sense.

[wish12oz]

I don't see how not using food when it's not doing much of anything for you is an insult to anything. If you're one shotting without food....

He most likely was not 1 shotting them with WS's, and you do stuff other then WS....
Like shoot arrows to gain TP, or barrage, or.... whateverelseRNGdoes.....

It's nice of you to not argue that RNG does more damage then NIN anymore too, glad to see you can handle math.

[axlzero]

why not give ninja throwing weapons that stack to 99 and give status effects to target? Or can do elemental damage even better a ninja can use elemental spells combined with a throwing weapon to do massive damage burst. another option is improve sange and overhaul it

[wish12oz]

why not give ninja throwing weapons that stack to 99 and give status effects to target? Or can do elemental damage even better a ninja can use elemental spells combined with a throwing weapon to do massive damage burst. another option is improve sange and overhaul it

I'm assuming you didn't read the thread, because well, I wouldnt read it either.
And the answer is simply because even if you did that, it would still not be useful enough to actually use.
You have to make the damage so broken it's not even realistic for it to be done to fix the problems with throwing at lvl 90, and we're not even at the new cap yet. The simple truth is that unless they let throwing be affected by haste, it will never be worth using. If you think this is wrong, here's the math for why throwing is so terrible, propose ideas to make it useful when you understand this:

Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

Also: we have slow and blind, the rest isn't really really useful, and if new enfeebling spells are added they should go to RDM.