new PLD job ability idea, may solve problems

[Greatguardian]

People play jobs in the manner in which they are most effective in their current state. People use jobs which are most effective for the content they are doing at the current time. There is no static identity. Paladin of 2004 is not Paladin of 2010. If it was, Terra's Staff would still be god-tier.

[wish12oz]

People play jobs in the manner in which they are most effective in their current state. People use jobs which are most effective for the content they are doing at the current time. There is no static identity. Paladin of 2004 is not Paladin of 2010. If it was, Terra's Staff would still be god-tier.

You haven't lived til you've fought Tiamat using pld/wars in full koenig and terra staves as tanks, oh and aerial armor rotations. That was some pro stuff back when grand wyrms first came out. lol

[Arcon]

Oh okay, because it's an opinion I'm not allowed to say it's totally dumb. Gotcha.

Yes.

(NO, Blue and Red procs are NOT going for it and if you want I can write out exactly why PLD is worthless in the Trigger department)

Please do. You mentioned PLD being useless for that before, and I explained how it was wrong, unless your definition of worthless is not being the best at all at the same time. If you know more than me, please elaborate. PLD is one of the best general stagger jobs in the game right now. It's also a good healing job inside Abyssea, same as anything with access to Cure IV.

If "Paladin" in FFXI is not your white knight ideal, play a game where it is or get over it instead of moaning about it all the time. Same goes for every other "Cliche" job.

Moaning is basically what these forums are for. Or call it constructive criticism. Or call it random suggestions. You'd be right on all accounts.

To get on topic, as several people pointed out before, PLD doesn't need to be fixed, the game needs to be fixed:

• Defense is drastically underpowered, increase the value of this status attribute
• Possibly adjust PDT/MDT/MDB calculations accordingly. 50% cap for PDT/MDT is nothing to write home about.
• Increase shield block rate or effect, possibly both

  Some people suggested 100% block rate, or 100% damage blocked, which is ridiculous. But right now, shield doesn't give us much of a boost, considering we're a natively blood tanking job.

• Revamp the enmity system

  Maybe I shouldn't have posted it in the Battle Contents forum, since it barely got any views. There have been a few suggestions to adjust enmity on here, most of which didn't make sense. I suggested a new system here. This would alleviate some issues inherent to the enmity system right now.

Paladins don't need to be better damage dealers if the enmity system is adjusted. They were never supposed to shine in damage. People are blinded by Abyssea, which is really pointless to get upset about. It's one single event, one that will be outdated in a bit, or at least put down to a less important role, which is AF3 farming grounds. Many jobs didn't have uses for particular events/battlefields before, it's the same thing here.

Still, PLD is losing its efficiency even outside of Abyssea, since melee damage gets ever higher, thus enmity generation ever more of a problem. Maybe it will change with the next update, but it doesn't change that these aspects are outdated and could use a redesign. Defense, for example, was always rather useless, enmity cap was always too easy to reach and limited playstyle, etc. Would love to see some of these things addressed.

[Bubeeky]

I'm don't know about any fixes, as I don't play pld, but I have many pld friends and I have to say, as a whm, watching a thf tank while the pld is regulated to back up healing and no melee just isn't right...you can't tell me that with situations like that that there's nothing wrong with pld and that it doesn't need to be fixed somehow...

[Greatguardian]

Yes.

No.

Please do. You mentioned PLD being useless for that before, and I explained how it was wrong, unless your definition of worthless is not being the best at all at the same time. If you know more than me, please elaborate. PLD is one of the best general stagger jobs in the game right now. It's also a good healing job inside Abyssea, same as anything with access to Cure IV.

Blue procs: Worthless because having Sword Blues isn't going to do you any good if you end up with Scythe, or Katana, or any of the myriad other non-PLD Weapon classes in Slashing Blue time. If you are after Blue procs, you should be bringing a MNK and a WHM, period. The second best, but still absolutely horrible option is to bring a THF, DRG, and RNG together for the Piercing time procs. Slashing is absolutely terrible and no one in their right mind should be attempting Blue procs during Slashing hours.

Grellow Procs: Flash. Holy. Banish 2. Banish 3. Unfortunately, if you're doing Grellow within Light-potential hours, you need Banishga 2 to complete your set. In order to get Banishga 2, you need a WHM. If you have a WHM, PLD is redundant at best and useless at worst.

Red Procs: Here is where a lot of people give Paladin way, way more credit than it deserves. Yes, Paladin has a large number of Red procs. Unfortunately, it doesn't have enough of the right ones to make it at all useful in this regard. Every Red proc PLD has, WAR also has. In order for PLD to not be redundant, you have to assume that there is not a WAR in the group.

If there is not a WAR in the group, your best option for additional Red procs becomes Ninja. Unfortunately, a lot of Paladin procs also overlap with Ninja. The only Weaponskills that Paladin has that Ninja does not are Sunburst and Freezebite. Unfortunately, this only brings you up to 12/13 reds. Neither Paladin nor Ninja has Shadow of Death. Since you are assuming that there is not a WAR in the group, this means that the only job which has native access to your last Red proc is Dark Knight. Your only other options are a BST or BLM subbing Warrior or Dark Knight, which is beyond ridiculous.

In a nutshell, in order for Paladin to not be completely redundant for Red procs, your group must not have a Warrior, and must also have a Dark Knight. If you can't figure out what's wrong with that situation, then I just can't say anything else.

If you somehow "Countered" this argument in a previous thread, I did not see it and I'd be more than welcome to hear it again.

Moaning is basically what these forums are for. Or call it constructive criticism. Or call it random suggestions. You'd be right on all accounts.

No. Providing Feedback does not equate to whining, moaning, and bitching in an incoherent mess.

To get on topic, as several people pointed out before, PLD doesn't need to be fixed, the game needs to be fixed:
Defense is drastically underpowered, increase the value of this status attribute

Because job adjustments equate to changing fundamental game mechanics. No. Defense will never be more worthwhile on any existing content, ever. The only way to make Defense worthwhile for potential new content is to tailor-make new NMs whose Attack scores are abysmal but whose Damage scores are massive. I've already mentioned this in another thread. So far, NMs of this type have only been implemented in a single area in the entire game (an Assault). If they were a pilot program, it's obvious that it failed and it is unlikely that we will see this sort of thing in the future.

[*]Possibly adjust PDT/MDT/MDB calculations accordingly. 50% cap for PDT/MDT is nothing to write home about.

This is also never going to happen. The 50% hard cap on player PDT/MDT is extremely important in the preservation of game balance. Removing it, or adjusting it, has the potential to be massively exploited and make Invincible players (see: Ducal Guard SMN pre-nerf, and Ducal Guard BST which is still invincible)

Increase shield block rate or effect, possibly both
Some people suggested 100% block rate, or 100% damage blocked, which is ridiculous. But right now, shield doesn't give us much of a boost, considering we're a natively blood tanking job.

Shields that aren't Ochain are practically worthless as it stands right now. Fortunately, Ochain is fairly easy to get and is practically a license to god-mode so there's no real point in powering up Shields. Any buff given to Shields will positively break the entire game with Ochain.

Revamp the enmity system
[Maybe I shouldn't have posted it in the Battle Contents forum, since it barely got any views. There have been a few suggestions to adjust enmity on here, most of which didn't make sense. I suggested a new system here. This would alleviate some issues inherent to the enmity system right now.

Again, you're trying to alter fundamental game mechanics in order to make Paladin more viable instead of altering Paladin to be more viable in the game's existing rule-set. This is never the way to fix jobs.

Paladins don't need to be better damage dealers if the enmity system is adjusted. They were never supposed to shine in damage. People are blinded by Abyssea, which is really pointless to get upset about. It's one single event, one that will be outdated in a bit, or at least put down to a less important role, which is AF3 farming grounds. Many jobs didn't have uses for particular events/battlefields before, it's the same thing here.

Still, PLD is losing its efficiency even outside of Abyssea, since melee damage gets ever higher, thus enmity generation ever more of a problem. Maybe it will change with the next update, but it doesn't change that these aspects are outdated and could use a redesign. Defense, for example, was always rather useless, enmity cap was always too easy to reach and limited playstyle, etc. Would love to see some of these things addressed.

Paladin has always had the potential to be a strong DD while performing its other duties. The only reason it took so long for people to jump on the bandwagon was a lack of general player knowledge. Atonement did not start PLD DD'ing, it simply made it mainstream. Any PLD worth a shit has had a Vorpal Blade set for half a decade now.

Any solution that requires changing the game to fit Paladin instead of changing Paladin to fit the game is not a solution at all.

[Malamasala]

I'm don't know about any fixes, as I don't play pld, but I have many pld friends and I have to say, as a whm, watching a thf tank while the pld is regulated to back up healing and no melee just isn't right...you can't tell me that with situations like that that there's nothing wrong with pld and that it doesn't need to be fixed somehow...

I've main healed on Summoner until Abyssea. If Summoner didn't get any update in all those years to fix their problem, we certainly do not need to work on PLD for another decade. (We can give them useless stuff though. How about another defender?)

[Chiibi]

But, but... THF, DRK and DNC NEED boosts....

Dancer needs a boost? explain please

[Sparthos]

Dancer needs a boost? explain please

DNC healing is all stuck on one timer, status removal is abysmal, steps are underwhelming are three complaints offhand.

[Arcon]

No.

Yes.

Blue procs: Worthless because having Sword Blues isn't going to do you any good if you end up with Scythe, or Katana, or any of the myriad other non-PLD Weapon classes in Slashing Blue time. If you are after Blue procs, you should be bringing a MNK and a WHM, period. The second best, but still absolutely horrible option is to bring a THF, DRG, and RNG together for the Piercing time procs. Slashing is absolutely terrible and no one in their right mind should be attempting Blue procs during Slashing hours.

Grellow Procs: Flash. Holy. Banish 2. Banish 3. Unfortunately, if you're doing Grellow within Light-potential hours, you need Banishga 2 to complete your set. In order to get Banishga 2, you need a WHM. If you have a WHM, PLD is redundant at best and useless at worst.

Red Procs: Here is where a lot of people give Paladin way, way more credit than it deserves. Yes, Paladin has a large number of Red procs. Unfortunately, it doesn't have enough of the right ones to make it at all useful in this regard. Every Red proc PLD has, WAR also has. In order for PLD to not be redundant, you have to assume that there is not a WAR in the group.

If there is not a WAR in the group, your best option for additional Red procs becomes Ninja. Unfortunately, a lot of Paladin procs also overlap with Ninja. The only Weaponskills that Paladin has that Ninja does not are Sunburst and Freezebite. Unfortunately, this only brings you up to 12/13 reds. Neither Paladin nor Ninja has Shadow of Death. Since you are assuming that there is not a WAR in the group, this means that the only job which has native access to your last Red proc is Dark Knight. Your only other options are a BST or BLM subbing Warrior or Dark Knight, which is beyond ridiculous.

In a nutshell, in order for Paladin to not be completely redundant for Red procs, your group must not have a Warrior, and must also have a Dark Knight. If you can't figure out what's wrong with that situation, then I just can't say anything else.

If you somehow "Countered" this argument in a previous thread, I did not see it and I'd be more than welcome to hear it again.

There is no argument, because you're making two assumptions that are not or not always met. Firstly you assume that you have other people/jobs available, sometimes you don't. Secondly, you assume that you can choose the time you're gonna do this at, blunt, slashing or piercing. However, if you saved up TEs and stay in zone to get random KIs/Atmas/Abyssites while you're there, you're not gonna wait till piercing and then ask a RNG friend to come out. You're gonna try to make the best of it, and PLD is great for that. It still isn't the best, and I know that, but it doesn't change the fact that it's good. You seem to be annoyed because it's the best, and I knew you were gonna say that:

[..] unless your definition of worthless is not being the best at all at the same time

Also, PLD can do all WAR red !! except for Shadow of Darkness. Also, not sure why you mention slashing when PLD can do 9/15 blunt WS. And this thread is the one I'm talking about.

No. Providing Feedback does not equate to whining, moaning, and bitching in an incoherent mess.

The point is, that if it's moaning or whining or bitching is often judged by the wrong people. People often call any kind of criticism they don't agree with moaning to make it seem less respectable (happened in this thread too).

Because job adjustments equate to changing fundamental game mechanics.

How do you figure?

No. Defense will never be more worthwhile on any existing content, ever. The only way to make Defense worthwhile for potential new content is to tailor-make new NMs whose Attack scores are abysmal but whose Damage scores are massive. I've already mentioned this in another thread. So far, NMs of this type have only been implemented in a single area in the entire game (an Assault). If they were a pilot program, it's obvious that it failed and it is unlikely that we will see this sort of thing in the future.

Speculation.

This is also never going to happen. The 50% hard cap on player PDT/MDT is extremely important in the preservation of game balance. Removing it, or adjusting it, has the potential to be massively exploited and make Invincible players (see: Ducal Guard SMN pre-nerf, and Ducal Guard BST which is still invincible)

Abyssea talk again. Also, I didn't say to raise the cap to 100%, I just said to raise it. 50% reduction isn't much. Obviously it's about moderation, just like with the haste cap. Saying 80% PDT is too much is like saying 80% haste is too much, but I don't see anyone complaining about that (although I do remember a lot of complaining when it was reduced).

Shields that aren't Ochain are practically worthless as it stands right now. Fortunately, Ochain is fairly easy to get and is practically a license to god-mode so there's no real point in powering up Shields. Any buff given to Shields will positively break the entire game with Ochain.

So you're ok with the fact that they force one item on you to be efficient? Ochain stands in no relation to any shield before, in fact I dare to say it stands in no relation to any item before. It's the Black Belt +3 for Paladins. Something overpowered like this needs to be adjusted in some way, it's a lot more broken than Aegis was at 75. Either way, right now PLDs are forced to use Ochain, and ignoring an entire part of the game dynamic for one single item, I'm sure that's not what the dev team had in mind.

Again, you're trying to alter fundamental game mechanics in order to make Paladin more viable instead of altering Paladin to be more viable in the game's existing rule-set.

Completely wrong, this enmity adjustment has nothing to do with PLDs at all. It's something that's bothered me for the longest time, inside and outside of Abyssea, with or without PLDs, or any tanks for that matter. In fact, just changing that the way I wanted it to wouldn't help PLDs tank better without some other adjustments.

This is never the way to fix jobs.

While it didn't really apply here, it's still wrong. Some jobs depend on a certain game dynamic, so a broken dynamic results in a broken job. The real argument is whether or not it's broken, and in my opinion it is.

Paladin has always had the potential to be a strong DD while performing its other duties. The only reason it took so long for people to jump on the bandwagon was a lack of general player knowledge. Atonement did not start PLD DD'ing, it simply made it mainstream. Any PLD worth a shit has had a Vorpal Blade set for half a decade now.

How do you define strong? Stronger than people expected it to be? Yes, definitely. I loved going to Nyzul on PLD just to prove to bandwagon SAMs I could out damage them. Strong enough to generate enmity through damage? To some degree, yes, unless it was a HNM (before Atonement). Strong enough to compete with decent damage dealers on any kind of important NM? No.

[Alhanelem]

Any solution that requires changing the game to fit Paladin

If a flawed game mechanic can be improved such that PLD is able to do its job properly, without damaging any other job's ability to perform, then it should be. It's not changing the game to fit paladin, it's changing the game to fit balance as a whole.

The current enmity mechanics are flawed, especially in abyssea where even non-DDs can cap their hate. There should not be an easily reachable hate cieling.

The problem with PLD is there's little reason to use it over anything else even when it is effective. The best solution is a trait or ability for PLD that gives them a tanking advantage, given the fact that it's what PLD was built to do. It needs something that stands out as special. (Until reprisal, PLD had no exclusive magic, whereas its counterpart DRK had several).