[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Malithar]

like I said for the party situation it would be 3 or more chars going red simultaneously-likely from an AoE TP or spell. Well any main healer is going to hit up the tank 1st, then the DD, but WHICH dd, the war, the mnk, the sam? you can be down the depth list for that cure, and that isn't a bad backline, it's just too many DD to healers, and healers need to get MP even with refresh gear. If you are solo... well trust healers aren't always the quickest off the ball, if you are /dnc there are still stun and para effects (or even worse in that situation, TP reset). In other words, stuff happens but many DD, especially wars that I see do not come prepared for it. Then they blame the healer, or the stunner. Well sorry, but you may be 3-4 in the cure list. Oh, and the mob isn't sitting still while we are working our way to you. It's not backline malice or incompetence, we just have LOTS of stuff to do.

No, I'd blame the healer in that situation. There's a nifty line of spells called Curaga (or Ascension Cure IV) that work excellent in that very situation. You're there to DD, if equipping a -DT set isn't enough to save you, a shield will not push you over some magical threshold.

For what it's worth, I Whm occasionally, and I'd be annoyed if I saw a War bothering with a shield.

[Dale]

No, I'd blame the healer in that situation. There's a nifty line of spells called Curaga (or Ascension Cure IV) that work excellent in that very situation. You're there to DD, if equipping a -DT set isn't enough to save you, a shield will not push you over some magical threshold.

For what it's worth, I Whm occasionally, and I'd be annoyed if I saw a War bothering with a shield.

Why would seeing a Warrior using a shield annoy you?

[Atomic_Skull]

Why would seeing a Warrior using a shield annoy you?

Same reason seeing a THF using a sword annoys me I imagine.

[Dale]

Same reason seeing a THF using a sword annoys me I imagine.

If the weapon a person is using in a video game causes you annoyance, you must have a very carefree life

I'm sure you can find better things to get annoyed about.

[Malithar]

Why would seeing a Warrior using a shield annoy you?

Because they're clearly gearing for defense in situations (read; anything at all, ever) where it is not needed. As the Whm, I'd be annoyed that someone was being un-optimal for the role they were brought to, when they will not die. It's intentionally gimping yourself for 0 gain, only loss.

If it helps, think of it as "I don't trust you to keep me alive, so I'm going to intentionally do worse at the roll I was brought for in order to 'insure' my safety." 'Insure' because a shield will do jack all.

[Dale]

Because they're clearly gearing for defense in situations (read; anything at all, ever) where it is not needed. As the Whm, I'd be annoyed that someone was being un-optimal for the role they were brought to, when they will not die. It's intentionally gimping yourself for 0 gain, only loss.

If it helps, think of it as "I don't trust you to keep me alive, so I'm going to intentionally do worse at the roll I was brought for in order to 'insure' my safety." 'Insure' because a shield will do jack all.

But that is just your opinion. And like you know what, everyone has one.

As long as you are winning the fight and the warrior with the shield isn't playing stupid or getting people killed - I see no legitimate reason to be annoyed by it. Seems to me you let silly things bother you. I have seen some very good warriors who go sword and board.

Also: I should point out there is a lot more to playing your job than just always doing damage. Any player who limits himself to such a small task is the one who is really gimping the group if you ask me. So I would agree with Glamdring. Players should expand their thought process and breadth of capabilities when possible. To always assume its the healer's job to keep you alive no matter in any situation is a good way to end up on the floor dead blaming others.

[Malithar]

the warrior with the shield isn't playing stupid

..That is playing stupid.

Also: I should point out there is a lot more to playing your job than just always doing damage. Any player who limits himself to such a small task is the one who is really gimping the group if you ask me. So I would agree with Glamdring. Players should expand their thought process and breadth of capabilities when possible. To always assume its the healer's job to keep you alive no matter what is a good way to end up on the floor dead blaming others.

As a healer, I'll be the first to say it: It is my job to ensure that no one ends up on the floor no matter what. There's very few things in this game anymore that have the damage output to really be a threat with a competent healer and support. The things that are a risk, you use -DT sets, Scherzo, Earthern Armor, or Geo-Wilt/Fend. I don't know how else to put it, but a shield on a War is not helping anyone at all. Good DDs aren't just limited to... good DD, but that's their role. That's why they're there. The good ones will know to voke incoming mobs, do a hate grabbing action after a hate wipe, maintain shadows, -DT sets on when/if needed, WS/SC when is optimal, stack JAs in such a way to get the most out of them, etc. They're not single minded, even Sam and Mnk, two DDs that are considered some of the most single minded around benefit greatly from playing smart and following the above points. But a shield on a War...no, this does absolutely nothing except for gimp the role you're brought for. I played War extensively before it became obvious that my Geo would be infinitely more useful in any content than it. I even skilled shield just cause. But it serves nearly 0 purpose, kiting is the only thing that even remotely comes to mind, and even that's a stretch; what's honestly kited anymore? Is that +30ish defense of whatever even going to make a difference?

As far as letting things bother me, it's more a pride matter. As I said in the previous post, I'd be annoyed if a War in my party had a shield. That's directly saying "I don't trust you to keep me alive." Because guess what, that War didn't get an invite to come and pseudo-kinda-sorta be a tank, he came to DD. His role is to DD. If he tanks from pumping out better numbers than the rest, awesome, I don't have to bother healing a bunch of others except for after TP moves and spells. But he better not toss on a shield because 1, he doesn't need it to survive, and 2, it's not helping the himself or the run. It's gimping himself for...what? Because he's an outside the box thinker that's ahead of his time? He won't be in my runs anymore, I know that much.

Again, you should be careful not to expect everyone else to live up to your own individual reasoning.

Just because you think there is no good reason to, doesn't mean everyone else does.

Name an honest to god good reason for a War to use a shield in a party situation. And don't do some mouth breather setup like Dnc main healer and 5 DDs without any protective JAs/spells/gear.

A War's role is DD. -DT sets, spells, and JAs are more than enough to survive anything. In what way does a shield help a War fulfill his role? And no, Fencer isn't enough to close the gap. And no, the defense provided by the shield doesn't magically make you able to tank. If anything, you'd tank worse because you're doing far less damage, while still taking similar amounts of damage, thus bleeding hate. So what use is there to it?

[Dale]

..That is playing stupid.



As a healer, I'll be the first to say it: It is my job to ensure that no one ends up on the floor no matter what. There's very few things in this game anymore that have the damage output to really be a threat with a competent healer and support. The things that are a risk, you use -DT sets, Scherzo, Earthern Armor, or Geo-Wilt/Fend. I don't know how else to put it, but a shield on a War is not helping anyone at all. Good DDs aren't just limited to... good DD, but that's their role. That's why they're there. The good ones will know to voke incoming mobs, do a hate grabbing action after a hate wipe, maintain shadows, -DT sets on when/if needed, WS/SC when is optimal, stack JAs in such a way to get the most out of them, etc. They're not single minded, even Sam and Mnk, two DDs that are considered some of the most single minded around benefit greatly from playing smart and following the above points. But a shield on a War...no, this does absolutely nothing except for gimp the role you're brought for. I played War extensively before it became obvious that my Geo would be infinitely more useful in any content than it. I even skilled shield just cause. But it serves nearly 0 purpose, kiting is the only thing that even remotely comes to mind, and even that's a stretch; what's honestly kited anymore? Is that +30ish defense of whatever even going to make a difference?

As far as letting things bother me, it's more a pride matter. As I said in the previous post, I'd be annoyed if a War in my party had a shield. That's directly saying "I don't trust you to keep me alive." Because guess what, that War didn't get an invite to come and pseudo-kinda-sorta be a tank, he came to DD. His role is to DD. If he tanks from pumping out better numbers than the rest, awesome, I don't have to bother healing a bunch of others except for after TP moves and spells. But he better not toss on a shield because 1, he doesn't need it to survive, and 2, it's not helping the himself or the run. It's gimping himself for...what? Because he's an outside the box thinker that's ahead of his time? He won't be in my runs anymore, I know that much.



Name an honest to god good reason for a War to use a shield in a party situation. And don't do some mouth breather setup like Dnc main healer and 5 DDs without any protective JAs/spells/gear.

A War's role is DD. -DT sets, spells, and JAs are more than enough to survive anything. In what way does a shield help a War fulfill his role? And no, Fencer isn't enough to close the gap. And no, the defense provided by the shield doesn't magically make you able to tank. If anything, you'd tank worse because you're doing far less damage, while still taking similar amounts of damage, thus bleeding hate. So what use is there to it?

I'll respond broadly to a few points.

That is your opinion that using a shield as a warrior is stupid. The warrior using a shield obviously disagrees. But you can feel it's stupid if you want. That's your right. Just don't openly mock him or make rude comments to him because of it. Because that is your issue if you want to let silly things like that cause you personal annoyance. Not his. And he shouldn't have to suffer because of another player's intolerance (for the record I'm not saying you do mock warriors who use shields. But just in case you do I am asking you not to).

Also: it's not your job your job as a healer to ensure no one ends up on the floor no matter what. You of course do what you can to prevent it. But to say it's a healer's job to keep everyone alive no matter what is an impossible standard you will never be able to live up to. And to expect other healers to live up to such an insane job description is unreasonable.

As far as you asking me to give you honest to god good reasons to use a shield in a party situation I will let a warrior do that. I don't play the job, so I'm not qualified to answer such a question. All I know is I have played with some very good warriors who used shields. So it's not as horrible as you are making out.

[Afania]

I'll respond broadly to a few points.

That is your opinion that using a shield as a warrior is stupid. The warrior using a shield obviously disagrees. But you can feel it's stupid if you want. That's your right. Just don't openly mock him or make rude comments to him because of it. Because that is your issue if you want to let silly things like that cause you personal annoyance. Not his. And he shouldn't have to suffer because of another player's intolerance (for the record I'm not saying you do mock warriors who use shields. But just in case you do I am asking you not to).

Also: it's not your job your job as a healer to ensure no one ends up on the floor no matter what. You of course do what you can to prevent it. But to say it's a healer's job to keep everyone alive no matter what is an impossible standard you will never be able to live up to. And to expect other healers to live up to such an insane job description is unreasonable.

As far as you asking me to give you honest to god good reasons to use a shield in a party situation I will let a warrior do that. I don't play the job, so I'm not qualified to answer such a question. All I know is I have played with some very good warriors who used shields. So it's not as horrible as you are making out.

WAR shouldn't use a shield is an opinion based on math and calculations. "I like apple" is an opinion, it's personal preference that has nothing to do with math and numbers. "1+1=2" is math and fact, it's not an opinion. This is FFXI, everything is based on math and numbers, this isn't an art class that you have your own free will to choose how you want to get things done.

You lose more than you gain by using a shield, WAR can't use a shield as effectively as a PLD, on the other hand, the killing speed decrease is very noticeable. The result is, you take A LOT longer to kill stuff, the WHM wastes more MP, things got harder to kill and it requires more support because the entire event become a pain in the ass to do.

Further more, there are many other means to reduce dmg taken, DT- sets, /NIN, scherzo, defense buffs, or better pt setup. If you take at look at your DPS decrease v.s a bit higher survive-ability that doesn't make a zomg difference, it's hardly worth it.

Telling the WAR "you shouldn't use a shield" isn't disrespect, because the WAR is hindering the pt performance. The WAR that's using a shield isn't respecting everyone else's time to begin with.

If the WAR take that comment personal, then I have nothing to say.......

Also, everyone has right to feel "annoyed" if they see a player purposely choose a way to play the game that wastes 5 other player's time. This has nothing to do with personality/disrespect.

[Afania]

Why would seeing a Warrior using a shield annoy you?

Seeing a warrior using a shield wouldn't annoy me if there's a good reason, it's hard to find a good reason though.