[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Dale]

If someone is wasting your time by being a bad player, then I don't see why someone wouldn't be annoyed. I don't think I've heard of people being annoyed at bad players they don't play with, they usually just laugh at them.

One of the problems with your exact attitude is that people are often complaining about how they don't get invites in the game, and if anybody tells them its because of their favored job being terrible in the current game or because they gear/play poorly, they're usually the ones that actually get angry and act rude, as opposed to the people who know what they're doing. I've seen this over and over again, apparently giving advice = rude. A large portion of the playerbase has gotten jaded about that and basically nobody helps each other anymore, because people are almost never receptive to anything you have to say. (BTW, my favorite job is NIN, which has consistently been a terrible job except for exp grinding the old fashioned way and the Abyssea era, and some really niche things like Ark Angel EV)

If you've ever heard rumors of Japanese PUGs being more pleasant, I can tell you from first-hand experience that it's partially because Japanese players have a larger portion of people that are receptive to people giving them advice on how to play the game.

This isn't really a problem restricted to this game, this happens in basically every MMO. People that take the time and effort to learn how to play the game are always going to be annoyed at players that not just waste their time by being bad, but are also completely uninterested in improving and get defensive if you try to help them.

I'll try to respond to this.

I specifically pointed out if you didn't want to group with a warrior who uses a shield I recognize your right not to do. And just because another player chooses to wear a shield that in no way wastes your time. So I don't understand what you are complaining about here. You can spend your time playing with who ever you want. I was never advocating forcing you to group with warriors who use shields.

And I'm going to stick to my guns on this. Because if seeing a warrior using a shield on this game annoys you, then I think you need better things to worry about. Because that is just not a good reason to get annoyed at someone in my opinion. That warrior is paying a subscription to play this game just like you and should be left alone to use a shield if he wants without being mocked or ridiculed for it.

As far as your other comments about my attitude... and why you somehow think this relates to people complaining about not getting invites or how you have trouble finding players who are receptive to your advice or play to your standards. I suspect your real problem in this area may have more to do with your limited view of how people should play and how you give out your advice rather my attitude. But that is just a guess. Because I have no problem getting invites or finding good players to play with Kincard. So perhaps it's not my attitude that is the problem here But you are of course entitled to your opinion.

[Dale]

WAR shouldn't use a shield is an opinion based on math and calculations. "I like apple" is an opinion, it's personal preference that has nothing to do with math and numbers. "1+1=2" is math and fact, it's not an opinion. This is FFXI, everything is based on math and numbers, this isn't an art class that you have your own free will to choose how you want to get things done.

You lose more than you gain by using a shield, WAR can't use a shield as effectively as a PLD, on the other hand, the killing speed decrease is very noticeable. The result is, you take A LOT longer to kill stuff, the WHM wastes more MP, things got harder to kill and it requires more support because the entire event become a pain in the ass to do.

Further more, there are many other means to reduce dmg taken, DT- sets, /NIN, scherzo, defense buffs, or better pt setup. If you take at look at your DPS decrease v.s a bit higher survive-ability that doesn't make a zomg difference, it's hardly worth it.

Telling the WAR "you shouldn't use a shield" isn't disrespect, because the WAR is hindering the pt performance. The WAR that's using a shield isn't respecting everyone else's time to begin with.

If the WAR take that comment personal, then I have nothing to say.......

Also, everyone has right to feel "annoyed" if they see a player purposely choose a way to play the game that wastes 5 other player's time. This has nothing to do with personality/disrespect.

Not everyone plays the game to be as mathematically effective at damage as possible Afania. That is what you don't seem to understand. Nor do they need to to be to be successful at this game. That is just a personal choice you make. And to expect everyone else to make that same choice is unreasonable.

And again: no one is forcing anyone to play with a warrior who uses a shield. No one is wasting your time or making you play with other players you do not approve of. You are free to play with whoever you want and however you want.

Now I agree with you that giving a warrior your opinion that they shouldn't use a shield is not a show of disrespect. But to get annoyed at someone because they do use a shield however is a different story.

People just need to learn to live and let live some and come to grips with the fact not everyone is going to play this game exactly as they think they should.

[detlef]

A WAR with a shield is as effective as a WAR equipping nothing at all in the offhand slot. Are people seriously encouraging this kind of play?

[Kincard]

Except this entire conversation started under the context that someone got annoyed by a bad player they were playing with. The only person not following the conversation is you, and it's funny how you say all this stuff about being nice to others while being incredibly passive-aggressive yourself. You're not fooling anybody.

Stuff

I'm sure there are lots and lots of elitist players that act like dicks without provocation, but the majority of my experience is that terrible players simply do not take any criticism well, even if its worded in the nicest way possible. I find that for the most part, people that are willing to learn about the game probably go out seeking the information themselves and end up not really needing it anyway.

[Seillan]

Except this entire conversation started under the context that someone got annoyed by a bad player they were playing with. The only person not following the conversation is you, and it's funny how you say all this stuff about being nice to others while being incredibly passive-aggressive yourself. You're not fooling anybody.



I'm sure there are lots and lots of elitist players that act like dicks without provocation, but the majority of my experience is that terrible players simply do not take any criticism well, even if its worded in the nicest way possible. I find that for the most part, people that are willing to learn about the game probably go out seeking the information themselves and end up not really needing it anyway.

Edit: Misunderstanding on my part.

[detlef]

The first paragraph of his post is probably directed at Dale. It is likely that only the portion of his post directly after your quote is directed at you.

[Seillan]

The first paragraph of his post is probably directed at Dale. It is likely that only the portion of his post directly after your quote is directed at you.

Ah, well if that's the case I apologize for the overreaction. I figured that top part was in response to posts I made in the other thread pertaining to this subject, since the conversations are somewhat linked.

Edited: clarification

[Dale]

Except this entire conversation started under the context that someone got annoyed by a bad player they were playing with. The only person not following the conversation is you, and it's funny how you say all this stuff about being nice to others while being incredibly passive-aggressive yourself. You're not fooling anybody.
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I'm not much for being passive aggressive Kincard. If I want to be aggressive with someone, I won't be a passive about it.

I did find you blaming my attitude for the fact you can't find good players or that people are not receptive to your advice to be misplaced however. So I suggested it might be your attitude to blame instead. In other words: maybe you are just being too picky about how good that player should be. And maybe you are not giving them advice in a way that makes them want to consider it. But I pointed out that was just a guess. But in any case - if anyone was being passive aggressive in this conversation I would say it's you - trying to blame me for your troubles on the game simply because I think its silly to get annoyed at a warrior because they are using a shield.

And rather they are playing with this warrior using a shield or not - there is nothing to stop that person from simply leaving the group if the shield annoys them so much. So I don't understand what difference that makes. Either way, no one is forcing anyone to play with a warrior who is using a shield.

I'll end by saying something life has taught me: (because it may help you with your social predicaments on the game). Advice is best given when asked for.

[Dale]

A WAR with a shield is as effective as a WAR equipping nothing at all in the offhand slot. Are people seriously encouraging this kind of play?

I'm not encouraging anything except for people not to get annoyed at once another over what I would consider silly reasons.

If a warrior wants to use a shield, then that's his/her choice. No reason to get annoyed at a person over it.

[Afania]

Not everyone plays the game to be as mathematically effective at damage as possible Afania.

Yes, of course you can pay $12 a month and afk 24/7 watching youtube to waste sub, nobody would say a word about it.

You know that if I choose to be a doctor, my job is to save lives. If I don't want to save lives, then I change profession.

The point of playing a DD job, obviously is to do dmg. Equipping a shield on a DD job is choosing to do less dmg for no reason.

And again: no one is forcing anyone to play with a warrior who uses a shield. No one is wasting your time or making you play with other players you do not approve of. You are free to play with whoever you want and however you want.

I don't think who you pt with is relevant in this discussion though, you're sugar coating everything into "personal preference", which I don't agree with when it comes to MMO. There are little to no room for "personal preference" in MMO.