Enmity imbalance?

[nyheen]

did some testing with bst/nin in rala waterways and man the enmity is a bit over the top. most of the time i was tanking more then my pet. i bet it gonna be a pain to deal with in dynamis

[Camiie]

Here's what happens on to me on BST. Send pet in to get in a hit or two. Heel. Mob starts hitting me. Working as intended?

[xiozen]

The most probable reason enmity is really wonky now is due how things were adjusted. Remember there are two parts to enmity. There is the more volatile part determined mostly by raw damage and healing numbers, and the more static part which is generated by actions. The volatile portion got reduced to about 30% of what it was for endgame content, and the reductions begin around level 50 content. The static portion was not adjusted. So what this means is will not be able to tank by pure damage like many seem to have gotten used to. So abilities like provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles will need to be used again, along with enmity+/- equipment depending on jobs.

The more static enmity generation of non-damage spells and abilities will likely be adjusted in the near future, hopefully as a stop gap till the system as a whole gets reworked.

Now this hurts pet jobs more than others, because pets generate their enmity almost exclusively by damage. While pet commands generate the more static enmity which was not adjusted. Anyone who leveled BST or SMN pre-GoV by soloing mobs can tell you on longer fights it took longer and longer for the pet to regain agro when just the basic fight commands were used, let alone when issued other commands as well.

This is by far the best QFT regarding this topic and is practically in line with what the devs stated about the adjustments to the enmity system...

just to reiterate what was previously stated: having enmity+ gear will increase the likelihood of the "tank" maintaining hate... since the adjustment to the system as it currently stands (past level 50) significantly reduces the amount of enmity gained from fighting the mob face-to-face... in a nutshell (PLD will RULE the day) under these conditions... with proper enmity gaining equipment, if you have a Paladin and said PLD has enmity+ gear or gear which mitigates enmity decay while taking damage etc..., you won't have problems with enmity. Even having other jobs with enmity+ gear will help while also taking advantage of the abilities/spells that increase enmity (provoke, flash etc.)

I use PUP as my primary job and for now, haven't had many issues since I've only been using WHM automaton in adoulin areas, with proper set-up and positioning w/ regards to master and automaton, the enmity never becomes an issue...but I can, with certainty, see how this is a nightmare for other jobs... as such, this definitely needs to be re-worked/fixed/fine tuned.

[saevel]

The most probable reason enmity is really wonky now is due how things were adjusted. Remember there are two parts to enmity. There is the more volatile part determined mostly by raw damage and healing numbers, and the more static part which is generated by actions. The volatile portion got reduced to about 30% of what it was for endgame content, and the reductions begin around level 50 content. The static portion was not adjusted. So what this means is will not be able to tank by pure damage like many seem to have gotten used to. So abilities like provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles will need to be used again, along with enmity+/- equipment depending on jobs.

The more static enmity generation of non-damage spells and abilities will likely be adjusted in the near future, hopefully as a stop gap till the system as a whole gets reworked.

Now this hurts pet jobs more than others, because pets generate their enmity almost exclusively by damage. While pet commands generate the more static enmity which was not adjusted. Anyone who leveled BST or SMN pre-GoV by soloing mobs can tell you on longer fights it took longer and longer for the pet to regain agro when just the basic fight commands were used, let alone when issued other commands as well.

Whatever anyone does DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GUY.

He has it all incredibly, stupidly wrong. It's like he glanced over a hate guide written in 2005.

"Enmity" is a number composed of two other numbers, Cumulative Enmity (CE) and Volatile Enmity (VE), each has a cap of 10,000 and together form the enmity cap of 20,000. Different actions generate different amounts of CE / VE for example. +enmity on gear is just a flat +%. +5 enmity would be +5% to the value generated, -5 would be -5%.

Flash
180 CE
1280 VE

Provoke
1 CE
1800 VE

You can look up specific values at Kanican's LJ site. All the formulas were fleshed out and we now know exactly how enmity works, no guessing is needed.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

Now the primary difference between CE and VE is in how they degrade. VE will degrade at a set rate of 60 units per
second no matter what, taking damage will not reduce it. CE will only degrade when you take damage at the rate of

[ CE Loss ] = 1800 x [ Damage Taken ] / [ Target Max HP ]

Now out of all the sources for CE the #1 is damage by a long shot. Previously it was approximately 1 damage = 1 CE and 1 CE = 3 VE @99 (actual ratios are dependent on targets level). This means laying down a 2000 damage WS generated 2000 CE and 6000 VE making it pretty easy to cap hate with damage.

SE's "adjustment" was just a .3 multiplier to enmity generated from damage / cures. Note I just said cures, cures generate CE/VE like damage does with the exception of Cure V generating a static amount. Cure V is a 400 CE and 700 VE before -enmity gear.

Knowing all this it's pretty easy to calculate out how much enmity someone is generating and how much their losing from damage. That same 2000 WS now generates 600 CE and 1800 VE. A 200 damage melee hit will generate 60 CE and 180 VE. Damage will still beat other sources for enmity, it just takes some time to build up CE.

What's really hurting you guys is enmity loss from getting your face punched in. The "defense" adjustments weren't adjustments to the actual value of defense but to the monsters attack ratio cap. 500 defense means the same now as it did two weeks ago. 200 defense means substantially less now then it did two weeks ago, provided the monster has more then 400 attack. With Protect V most people aren't going to have to worry about "defense" issues, just don't go under 400 and your ok as very few monsters have attack over 700~750. This means berserk and LR are fine to just, just don't use both at once. Counter stance could now be a death sentence (not sure what the *new* defense calculations have it at) on anything with 600 or more attack. You absolutely most remove all defense down debuffs the monster put on you. Over the years SE went crazy with handing out AoE -50 ~ 90% defense down debuffs to everything they created. That can instantly double the damage you take. Finally some NM's are just going to suck period. SE designed certain NM's with Tp attacks that have insane attack boosts, Sutr's Heavy Strike and Pil's Flank Opening are prime examples. Unless your a BLU rocking 800+ defense those attacks are going to really hurt. I tried to warn SE to think this through but they didn't listen and even told me I was over thinking it.

Yeah we see the results now.

[Godofgods]

What you're describing simply isn't possible unless someone is doing something horribly wrong (Doing bad damage, taking way more damage than they should be, etc) or there's a bug somewhere in the system, because both cures and damage enmity were adjusted to 30% of their original values.

yea, your right, its a lie. Everyone got together and decided to commutatively complain about this because we had nothing better to do. And there is nothing else going on in this game that was worthy enough of or time... -_-

[Karah]

I've been noticing that basically anything cast by a mage is pulling enmity off anything else.

I'll engage, bully, SA > Mercy stroke > then cast regen, cure2/3 and the mage gets hate, it's a bit much.

Even 10-20 melee rounds generates lower enmity than auspice, or boost-str.

[saevel]

I've been noticing that basically anything cast by a mage is pulling enmity off anything else.

I'll engage, bully, SA > Mercy stroke > then cast regen, cure2/3 and the mage gets hate, it's a bit much.

Even 10-20 melee rounds generates lower enmity than auspice, or boost-str.

Not possible. We know the hate values for both of those, their incredibly small, a fly farting would generate more hate.

2 / 3 questions

#1 How much total damage are you doing within a 30 / 60 / 90s period. That makes a very big difference early on when you have no CE / VE built up. This is the only thing "hate tools" are good for, that initial spike.

#2 How much total damage is the NM doing to you within that same 30 / 60 / 90s period.

#3 What heals and for how much is your WHM curing for. Before a 400HP cure used to be 186 CE and 1116 VE before -enmity or tranqual heart. No that same 400HP cure would be 56 CE and 335 VE. 800HP Cure IV would now be 112CE and 670 VE. These are all slight approximations, but they should be good to within the second digit. Cure V is 400CE and 700 VE. People should notice that Cure IV is now more enmity efficient then Cure V.

To "tank" things you need an initial VE spike then a period where your building CE by spamming WS's. After you got a solid hold on CE you can open up a bit. Make a PDT / MDT set, it is a life saver by not only requiring less healing (and thus less enmity generation) from your healer but also reducing your hate bleed from big TP moves.

[noirin]

This hate update does seem to hurt anyone outside of tank jobs rather hard.As a Bst wandering Adoulin by myself,i absolutely cannot use Guttler while fighting things or my pet will never,ever pull hate on its own. Heck I have to stay in my pdt kit just to keep my pets around long enough to solo any mobs.Even then,turning and giving my pets some time to kill the mob [lets say,halfway or so] still results in my taking direct hate the moment i turn for a hit.
Waltzing anytime during that also is rather suicidal,as the mob instantly will hit me and undo my recovery.

That being said though, a few days ago when i was doing quests with a small team [me Bst,Pup and a Pld] then we had no issues at all coasting around and killing the occasional Velkk and NM for things. So while this adjustment is seriously hurting my Solo/Mage efforts, it did do the 1 thing SE clearly wanted-Made Tanks and heavy defense jobs more desirable to anyone partaking in the current content.

Sadly,they need to realize not all of us like to wander around as tanks.

[Karah]

Obviously, it was hyperbole, but not that far from accurate. I'm well aware of the values, and mechanics.

It's that the (umbrils in that post) take so little damage from melee, that ~2,000 damage wasn't enough to hold enmity over a single cast of auspice, or regen 4.

Obviously after being hit, as they have near perfect accuracy. (in a "standard" tp set)

Enmity needed adjusting, I just think they overshot it, by a little (lot).

[Hawklaser]

Whatever anyone does DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS GUY.

He has it all incredibly, stupidly wrong. It's like he glanced over a hate guide written in 2005.

"Enmity" is a number composed of two other numbers, Cumulative Enmity (CE) and Volatile Enmity (VE), each has a cap of 10,000 and together form the enmity cap of 20,000. Different actions generate different amounts of CE / VE for example. +enmity on gear is just a flat +%. +5 enmity would be +5% to the value generated, -5 would be -5%.

Flash
180 CE
1280 VE

Provoke
1 CE
1800 VE

You can look up specific values at Kanican's LJ site. All the formulas were fleshed out and we now know exactly how enmity works, no guessing is needed.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

Now the primary difference between CE and VE is in how they degrade. VE will degrade at a set rate of 60 units per
second no matter what, taking damage will not reduce it. CE will only degrade when you take damage at the rate of



Now out of all the sources for CE the #1 is damage by a long shot. Previously it was approximately 1 damage = 1 CE and 1 CE = 3 VE @99 (actual ratios are dependent on targets level). This means laying down a 2000 damage WS generated 2000 CE and 6000 VE making it pretty easy to cap hate with damage.

SE's "adjustment" was just a .3 multiplier to enmity generated from damage / cures. Note I just said cures, cures generate CE/VE like damage does with the exception of Cure V generating a static amount. Cure V is a 400 CE and 700 VE before -enmity gear.

Knowing all this it's pretty easy to calculate out how much enmity someone is generating and how much their losing from damage. That same 2000 WS now generates 600 CE and 1800 VE. A 200 damage melee hit will generate 60 CE and 180 VE. Damage will still beat other sources for enmity, it just takes some time to build up CE.

What's really hurting you guys is enmity loss from getting your face punched in. The "defense" adjustments weren't adjustments to the actual value of defense but to the monsters attack ratio cap. 500 defense means the same now as it did two weeks ago. 200 defense means substantially less now then it did two weeks ago, provided the monster has more then 400 attack. With Protect V most people aren't going to have to worry about "defense" issues, just don't go under 400 and your ok as very few monsters have attack over 700~750. This means berserk and LR are fine to just, just don't use both at once. Counter stance could now be a death sentence (not sure what the *new* defense calculations have it at) on anything with 600 or more attack. You absolutely most remove all defense down debuffs the monster put on you. Over the years SE went crazy with handing out AoE -50 ~ 90% defense down debuffs to everything they created. That can instantly double the damage you take. Finally some NM's are just going to suck period. SE designed certain NM's with Tp attacks that have insane attack boosts, Sutr's Heavy Strike and Pil's Flank Opening are prime examples. Unless your a BLU rocking 800+ defense those attacks are going to really hurt. I tried to warn SE to think this through but they didn't listen and even told me I was over thinking it.

Yeah we see the results now.

Sorry for getting the terms wrong, but the description still fits if you read what I posted instead of latching on to the wrong terminology. Also, I was not making a claim as to how the enmity system as a whole worked, but was trying to point out the fact that with the changes people will not be able to rely on damage alone to establish and maintain hate now, and would need to be using more hate tools such as provoke, flash, and ninjitsu enfeebles.

The only other part that could be affecting things being so wonky now, is not really something players can do much about. And that is if the hate decay for getting smacked is still working at 100% instead of at 30% like enmity generated from raw damage and healing numbers. Which would be making hate decay much faster than it is generated with out the use of non-damage/healing enmity generation tools.