WHM Have NO Natural Refresh Capability, WHY?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Whm doesn't need the refresh and even if they did need it we could *gasp* just get help from a job that actually can refresh in a game based on teamwork.

On the rare occasion that I do sub the affore mentioned job over SCH(Which is superior BTW.), I never remember to cast refresh on myself anyway.

[Khajit]

I didn't mean changing sj. Been up a bit too late?(It would be a fair guess that my timezone is ahead of yours and this is really late at night for you)

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I didn't mean changing sj. Been up a bit too late?(It would be a fair guess that my timezone is ahead of yours and this is really late at night for you)

It was mearly a statement of; That if I did have refresh, it would almost never be used.

[Khajit]

That part was kinda covered in the "even if they did need it" part of my initial statement.

[Wolfe]

A good WHM in Abyssea will have club skill leveled to proc Blue!! with Hexa Strike so this argument doesn't really hold up.

I personally never have an MP issue as WHM/RDM inside or outside of Abyssea. I used to always just /SCH before cap rose and I do still think it's a good sub but I just prefer the mindless casting of Refresh and not having to worry about a sublimation being dispelled (used to happen to me a lot).

Edit: And my best guess to answer your question is that up until the game got turned into Easy-mode there was still a need to keep people taking time to level up. Longer they take to level up the longer they play, the more money they make. The more you have to rest the more time it takes. Having a RDM or BRD in the party was always standard to make sure resting time was lowered. This forced some sense of teamwork (SE's premise for FFXI) essentially rewarding you for doing what they wanted you to do.

Actually, it still holds up. If you have club leveled enough to proc blue, you are NOT going to melee on the mob and feed it TP. If you do, you are an idiot. You will pop a wing or have a regain atma on for TP or, heaven forbid, have a SAM feed you TP. Which leads me right back to where I was, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET MP?

If all you are doing is proc'ing blue, how do you get MP back? Mystic Boon, right? Oh, wait, that's right, you don't use it because you are just there to proc blue. BUT, MP in Abyssea is not an issue. I am talking about outside Abyssea (that still exists, right?). Even though not many people like to do stuff outside Abyssea, there are still some dedicated players that want to complete the rest of the game.

Anyway, you are missing the point of this thread. WHM have no natural refresh and never have. Before and after Abyssea, there is STILL no refresh. Why have they still not addressed the issue? Pre-level 80 increase, you could truly see how screwed WHM got. Now you can finally see that they are "trying" to fix WHM because they realize that they have no way to get MP back, save for lolddwhm'ing. Everyone knows that you can grab a support job and get some kind of MP recovery. But I want to know why WHM by itself can not refresh. If WHM could get some form of natural refresh, it would be great to see what you could do with different support jobs. Because as of right now, all WHM gets to sub is RDM for convert and refresh, SCH for sublimation and light arts, and BLM if you are really bored and want Warp II access. I suppose you could sub SMN for avatars for S&G's.

And the point of "easy mode" for FFXI was that they were trying to break the game so that people would hate it and switch over to FFXIV. Thus why they didn't release just another 5 levels, they are releasing everything they have been holding back for their "rainy day." But after realizing that FFXIV bombed so hardcore, now they have to work on making FFXI NOT suck and are having a hell of a time doing it. I'm still waiting for them to release Rank 15, it's already in the data files, and has been for years.

[Wolfe]

I don't see why whms need an auto-refresh. Higher tier cures make the mp gained from the trait almost unnoticeable. If anything, whms should get conserve mp, but that would just be redundant due to the ability to sub sch. In the long run while spamming cures you'll notice that you have a larger mp pool with conserve mp than without it; and if you are idle waiting for those few tics of mp why not rest. It's not like kneeling down will kill you. In roughly one second you can be up curing your tank without any setbacks.

Yeah, kneeling down may not kill you, but the delay it takes to drop to a knee, AS your tank gets hit, now you have to try desperately to stand up and get a cure off before they die. It may not kill you, it sure as hell can kill your tank in a matter of seconds. I would call that a setback.

[Wolfe]

The reason we have ballad is because brds are SUPPORT jobs we have the ballad for YOU whms -.- if whms would stop running away from me when i ballad them or if they would stop being so close to the damn melee yea their refresh rate wouldn't be an issue(not saying you do this but you rly wouldn't believe the ammount of mages who run from ballad or the melee who feel they need ballad with their 10 mp pool -.-). Aside from being brd for over 6 years now I am also whm and I don't run into much mp problems, while yes it would be nice to have some sort of refresh native to whm I don't feel it is a NEED. To me it would mean I would not have to be as careful when playing whm lol. I have seen a galka whm with decent gear nothing amazing have no problem with healing while I have been with plenty of hume taru or mithra whm who have the hardest time keeping people healed and keeping mp up so another thing to consider is player skill~

Yes, I understand BRD is a support job, I stated that too. I was also using it to prove a point. DNC has a refresh dance as well. So does COR.

And while the Galka did not have a problem with MP, did you know that a Galka also has stronger cures than any other race? That does play a big factor.

I know player skill is something to consider, I have seen 3 WHM in an alliance run out of MP and get a full wipe. I came in (LS event that I arrived late to), told the 3 WHM to go job change and I was able to keep everyone alive without any issues what-so-ever. I am not trying to brag, but the 3 WHM's were pretty awful. Player skill can make or break a job.

[Wolfe]

Wolfe - we can agree to disagree on the fact that WHM needs natural refresh, but if you are talking about "natural" as in a Job Trait, then only SMN, PLD and BLU have that. RDM gets theirs from spells and gear just like WHM's. SMN did not even get Auto Refresh 2 until level 90 and that is only 2mp/tic. SCH gets their's from a Job Ability that has a timer unlike Job Traits which are always active. RDM is the same with Convert. So in essence, it is not a natural ability. If MP Conserve was adjusted to proc more often with greater reliability, I think you might find that to be better. Or just allow WHM's to perform self Devotion, which for me is 325+mp which is slightly less than a third of my normal overall MP pool.

"Natural" means the job by itself with no subjob or other item/equipment. Not just job trait, a spell or job ability would work as well.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Yeah, kneeling down may not kill you, but the delay it takes to drop to a knee, AS your tank gets hit, now you have to try desperately to stand up and get a cure off before they die. It may not kill you, it sure as hell can kill your tank in a matter of seconds. I would call that a setback.

This has been a non-issue for around 9 years. It's all part of the glorious micro management that is WHM.

[Wolfe]

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I think SE gave us Boon/Dagan ... to encourage us to get creative and open-minded. You can't melee everything, but BLM&DRK can't aspir everything. When you -CAN- take full advantage of these WS's, the returns on them are gamebreakingly good! We're talking filling your MP bar way more often than a RDM can convert, inside or outside Abyssea.

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be spiffy to see a "Panaloon Mastery" trait that gave us the Orison-Pantaloons-style cash back rewards on qualifying MP purchases (Converts x% of "Cure" amount to MP) or something.

But, you should at least try killaging before you write it off as useless or irrelevant or whatever. It's really fun and efficient, if you can adapt your playstyle.

I am not writing it off as useless or irrelevant, WHM are squishy jobs and not meant to DD. That does not mean that you can not DD. I have a friend that is an amazing DDWHM, him and another friend used to run around as RDM & WHM and duo stuff all the time, the WHM was the tank and DD (I know, when you look at the jobs you kind of wonder why the RDM was not the DD). He was a great DDWHM and I am actually working on gearing a DDWHM myself, just because it is fun. WHM will never be able to put out the kind of damage that the real DD jobs can, but it is still fun.

But I still stand by my previous statement, WHM need a natural refresh. They do not have one and I believe that if they did, the job would have so many other possibilities. I know I could use a few WS to recover MP, but if you are going DDWHM, you are trading off a lot of damage for a chance to recover some MP and even then, not that much. If you choose the right mob, yeah you can refill your MP nicely. But it is a crap shoot that is not worth the effort when you can just get a friend to kill the mob in a 1/10th of the time. And unless you have your club skill capped (or close to), you are not going to put out any damage and fighting mobs is going to be insanely slow.

I have a pretty decently geared DDWHM and even a DRG75 with gimp gear can out DD me and usually kill at least 3 times the mobs (tested with a few lolafdrg75). Yes, WHM can DD and recover MP. But in the amount of time that it takes to kill a mob, you might as well just quit.