WHM Have NO Natural Refresh Capability, WHY?

[Wolfe]

I would like to say, I am a 90 RDM and WHM....and for you to state that about RDMs. Is completely disrespectful in my eyes. RDMs are masters of Refreshing as well as Enfeebling. So, please, back off of RDMs. lols

Anyways, I do agree that WHMs should get a Auto-Refresh JT. It would be useful. lol

Yes, it is disrespectful of RDM for me to say that. But before the level cap increase past 75, WHM were not wanted for meripo (merit parties) because a RDM was more useful. So hopefully you can see where my distaste of RDM comes from. I started the game on WHM and will probably die on WHM. No one ever lets me come on anything but WHM because I am good at it (maybe I should start letting people die, I'm sure that would fix the problem).

[Effilil]

I started the game on WHM and will probably die on WHM. No one ever lets me come on anything but WHM because I am good at it (maybe I should start letting people die, I'm sure that would fix the problem).

I'm very much the same way...and I have let people die and they STILL want me as whm on everything...

also...
Dagan is Empy club ws...not all whm are going to go through all the bother to make an empy club (I'm up to that leech VNM, but can't get my clear abyssite to change..0/100 on it so far...and no one doing it on my server the last few weeks) I really only dd on solo on whm when running around doing quests, so I'm not in a huge hurry to get that club finished

[Fredjan]

To the WHM/RDMs in this thead saying they /rdm so they can refresh themselves:

A WHM/SCH has pretty much the exact same thing in the form of 3mp/tic Sublimation at 90 (SCH45 gets the improved trait, and at level 85+ it's just insane for scholar but that's another subject for another job). At that point it's a question of MP conservation and flexibility from Light Arts' job abilities (/SCH) or convert with a 10minute timer (/RDM) and to me the choice is obvious. I - personally - have never used /rdm, and don't see the point of it outside of cases of having an easy-to-access dark based sleep or dispel without having to pop Dark Arts + Addendum: Black. RDM sub loses the entire point of MP conservation and flexibility (not to mention the conserve MP job trait itself) for raw MP, and that doesn't mean it's superior even without access to Refresh II from a Red Mage. But hey, to each their own.

In abyssea, most White Mages do use refresh atma as some have said here, and there's chances regardless of the sub you'll run low on MP (I feel /sch WHMs last the longest, but that's me). But in a lot of cases, I'll pop Sublimation, and have it fully charged and not even need it, and the buff eventually wears off. In cases like this, it doesn't really matter what the sub is. There's uses for even Black Mage sub (okay, one use... Stun). Conserve MP was the main reason I used /BLM back in the day, but /SCH has it. I have never /BLM'ed just for Warp for example outside of easy traveling to HP when I'm moving around. You'd be surprised how many people I know use it just for Warp after an event... hello, instant warp scroll, only 10 Conquest Points DO YOU HAVE IT?! I personally could get over 30000 instant warp scrolls. That's awesome.

/minor support job rant off. That isn't meant to offend people or anything, it's just how I feel about White Mage's support job options. To each their own, and I'll stick to my view of them. :P

To the point at hand (the topic):

I completely agree that White Mage could use something unique to itself that'd offer MP restoration/conservation. We have no natural refresh without having to resort to weaponskills or support jobs. I would definitely like to see WHM get something, even Auto-Refresh if naught else. Orison Pantaloons +2 was awesome and I feel it's one of the nicest pieces of empyrean armor out there. 5% of a cure amount doesn't seem like a ton but it's more than one'd think. As an example... 1532 Cure 6 for example (something I've managed to reach) would net ~76 MP back. Say I used Light Arts and Penury, lowering the cost to 113~ MP (not even considering further conserve MP procs which are possible). I'd end up spending only 37-38 MP to cure for 1500+. That's just win.

[Wolfe]

To the WHM/RDMs in this thead saying they /rdm so they can refresh themselves:

A WHM/SCH has pretty much the exact same thing in the form of 3mp/tic Sublimation at 90 (SCH45 gets the improved trait, and at level 85+ it's just insane for scholar but that's another subject for another job). At that point it's a question of MP conservation and flexibility from Light Arts' job abilities (/SCH) or convert with a 10minute timer (/RDM) and to me the choice is obvious. I - personally - have never used /rdm, and don't see the point of it outside of cases of having an easy-to-access dark based sleep or dispel without having to pop Dark Arts + Addendum: Black. RDM sub loses the entire point of MP conservation and flexibility (not to mention the conserve MP job trait itself) for raw MP, and that doesn't mean it's superior even without access to Refresh II from a Red Mage. But hey, to each their own.

In abyssea, most White Mages do use refresh atma as some have said here, and there's chances regardless of the sub you'll run low on MP (I feel /sch WHMs last the longest, but that's me). But in a lot of cases, I'll pop Sublimation, and have it fully charged and not even need it, and the buff eventually wears off. In cases like this, it doesn't really matter what the sub is. There's uses for even Black Mage sub (okay, one use... Stun). Conserve MP was the main reason I used /BLM back in the day, but /SCH has it. I have never /BLM'ed just for Warp for example outside of easy traveling to HP when I'm moving around. You'd be surprised how many people I know use it just for Warp after an event... hello, instant warp scroll, only 10 Conquest Points DO YOU HAVE IT?! I personally could get over 30000 instant warp scrolls. That's awesome.

/minor support job rant off. That isn't meant to offend people or anything, it's just how I feel about White Mage's support job options. To each their own, and I'll stick to my view of them. :P

To the point at hand (the topic):

I completely agree that White Mage could use something unique to itself that'd offer MP restoration/conservation. We have no natural refresh without having to resort to weaponskills or support jobs. I would definitely like to see WHM get something, even Auto-Refresh if naught else. Orison Pantaloons +2 was awesome and I feel it's one of the nicest pieces of empyrean armor out there. 5% of a cure amount doesn't seem like a ton but it's more than one'd think. As an example... 1532 Cure 6 for example (something I've managed to reach) would net ~76 MP back. Say I used Light Arts and Penury, lowering the cost to 113~ MP (not even considering further conserve MP procs which are possible). I'd end up spending only 37-38 MP to cure for 1500+. That's just win.

I think the main point is that every other mage job has some form of natural refresh, and WHM is the only one that doesn't. It really doesn't make much sense. We're the main job that is supposed to keep the parties alive, but we don't get any native abilities to back ourselves up.

One could argue that 89% of the time a WHM should have another job to support them in that area, but that still doesn't change the fact that we have nothing native to us. While every other job does, and has support from subjobs and other people's main jobs on top of it.

I wouldn't say that one is needed per say, but definitely would be nice. And make more sense.

Thank you both for seeing and understanding the point I was trying to make.

[Simian]

The Cobra Unit Robe set from Campaign has +13 MP conserve for the set. I was laughed at for using it prior to being able to convert and refresh from /RDM, but the set does go far in that category, it just does not add enough MP for those needing an MP pool boost like Galka do.

[Wolfe]

The Cobra Unit Robe set from Campaign has +13 MP conserve for the set. I was laughed at for using it prior to being able to convert and refresh from /RDM, but the set does go far in that category, it just does not add enough MP for those needing an MP pool boost like Galka do.

Again, WHM still has no "natural" form of refresh.

[Myrid]

disclaimer 1: only read the first page of posts. just putting in my 2 cents

disclaimer 2: I've been playing rdm for the entirety of my FFXI career (oct 2003). WHM was my second job, leveled in around 2005. Had done everything the game had to offer at the time of CoP (wyrms, bahamut), have been a little less hardcore since then.

WHM in abyssea is completely overpowered right now as long as you have minikin monstrosity atma. Don't even need anything else for 95% of fights. Reason being: Cure V and Cure VI. Nobody else can heal for 1k hp every 3 seconds (or so) when it's often needed with such huge HP pools (and such huge damage numbers).

Outside, however, it's the exact opposite when the whm is not tagging along with a rdm or brd. In this case rdm (refresh 2), sch (enhanced sub, light arts, penury) tend to pull away as better solo healers simply due to MP conservation. This is, again, considering you're the lone healer in the group, and resting would mean death. In any fight where you can rest, it's not a problem.

My fix ideas:
For rdm/sch: Give a special cure that cures a percentage of max HP (50%?). make sure it takes abyssea buffs into account. Give it a hefty MP cost and moderate cooldown (10s?) but cast time equal to c5. So whm would still be a better healer for most cases there. Could even give this spell to whm too, not that they'd use it. Outside of abyssea, it'd pretty much be another c4.

For whm: either - Give a job trait that occasionally returns 50% of a cure's mp back to the caster. Exact potency of that trait can be adjusted for balance.
or: a spell when used under solace uses the built up (and useless) "uber holy" charge to instead restore mp. Again, exact potency can be adjusted for balance.. but idea would be to grant about as much mp back as a sch would get for their enhanced sublimation, usable about as often.

[Baroka]

Hmmm cure cap is 50% so i have no use for harmony or rescurer. I use allure MM and Apoc. Ideal in af3 +2 body because of +2 refresh a tick. but yes it would be really nice if whm would get a refresh triat. As a main whm we could really use it sometimes. also i only /sch. love being able to aoe stoneskin regen and what not when exping

[kitykat]

Baroka.. i just wanted to say "I LOVE THAT PIC"!!! LOL

[Simian]

Then what is a sub job for if not to augment your main? Sorry, I am not seeing where 1 or 2 refresh/tic job trait would outweigh some of the other things needed by whm when I can get that refresh from subjobs and gear. It would be nice to have, I guess, but really, in all seriousness, can you even say that a refresh trait is as more of a need than adding much needed light damage spells that are far and away behind the current standard for any job at current max levels.

Someone once told me it isn't how much MP you have, it is how fast you can get it back, Part of getting it back is not spending it in the first place and Conserve MP works better on whm than it does on other jobs that have it. I can get 12mp/tic refresh outside of Abyssea. Is 1 or 2 mp/tic more going to save more than doing a Raise for less than a 100mp. If anything upgrade Conserve MP.

We can agree to disagree. I won't hold it against you, I promise. ...lol

"Without any kind of refresh, WHM drain their MP pool fast and the party will wipe."

Tell me you were not one of those WHM's that would not exp w/o a refresher prior to level cap increase. I had no problems handling an exp party w/o refresh.