New Weaponskills - Not what was expected

**Prothscar** · 01-06-2012 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by darkhorror

Have you tested it out on BST? as I know it's sure as hell isn't 5%

Limules on the test server indicated 5% when I ran the test during my stint on abusing that system as much as I could. Feel free to do it yourself.

**darkhorror** · 01-06-2012 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Prothscar

Limules on the test server indicated 5% when I ran the test during my stint on abusing that system as much as I could. Feel free to do it yourself.

I guess you never tested it on BST, BLU corrosive ooze sucks, Beastmasters doesn't. I am going to sleep now and I couldn't get my attack low enough to test to see exact number yet but it's well over 25%. as fighting beetles where I brought my attack low enough so they would con high defense. Then used corrosive ooze they then conned low defense, I didn't have low enough attack to get it to where they would con neutral, i'll test tomorrow while using a dagger so I can lower my attack enough to see how much def- it actually is.

**Return1** · 01-06-2012 04:09 PM

Apex? Get a Gandiva.

Not everyone wants to bother with a Gandiva. Newer testing shows that Jishnu's is retard strong. The only use for Apex is ridiculously strong High Evasion/Defense mobs. That and SAM. Still useful and arguably the best outside of Jishnu's.

Blade: Shun? Get a Kannagi.

Same stupid argument? Well, Blade: Shun and Blade: Hi outside abyssea really comes down to mob defense, and crit rate. Blade: Shun has a better WSC mod with 100% DEX, and a higher fTP value, the only thing in Hi's favor are Shun's attack penalty and crits. So for events where you rip through a lot of low defense trash mobs, Shun is a great tool to have. Dynamis, Einherjar, Limbus, Nyzul, etc for example.

Entropy? Tell the DRKs that.

DRKs, and on this board in particular, are pathetically bad in general. As a fairly amazing long-time DRK myself, I can vouch for it being 100% better than every scythe WS by miles. Catastrophe with a 90+ Apoc was handily our Strongest Scythe WS. Now Entropy is. In the past an INT mod may have been less than desirable but today INT gear makes for wonderful WS piece. Twilight Helm, Twilight Mail, Relic +2 hands, Dilaram's/Bale +2 Sollerets for example all have great INT boosts and are amazing for WS. All jobs get access for good INT Rings, Earring, and Ammo. The neck and waist are always Belt/Gorget so that's a wash. So INT mods are not so lol anymore, and that goes for almost all mods but CHR anymore.

TL;DR: The DRKs who think Entropy sucks for a Scythe WS are retards. I would not be surprised if they don't gear for INT because they think INT mod only affects MP drain.

Requiescat? Get an Almace.

Requiescat sucks, but if it didn't have that -20% attack, it could be a sturdy WS. As it stands, it's current main use is for BLUs wanting to close Self Darkness with Quadrastrike for ridiculous numbers, which actually makes it very useful. Keep making the "get this weapon argument".

Shijin: Requires a relic to barely edge out Verethragna. Get a Verethragna.

Get a Spharai you gimp!

See how that works?

You can't even say that it's not the same either, because nowadays you can easily pump out gil for a relic in the same amount of time as it takes to farm your own Empyrean.

Oh yeah, Exenterator: What needs to be said is it only does well outside Abyssea, and only if you're not stacking a force-crit JA with it. Both dagger users have force-crit JAs. It's a situational sidegrade WS that's inherently tied down by the fact that you don't often see situations where Dagger users are actually in groups large enough to give them the support spells required (and to fight the large monster types required) to do a meaningful number of WS without a force-crit. WS frequency is inhibited when spamming weak mobs, which is where you most often see Dncs and Thfs.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

You're Wrong.

You won't find a DNC or THF worth a damn that has anything bad to say about Exenterator. It's the best unstacked outside abyssea and if you're worth a damn, most of your WSes are likely to be unstacked. The mods is damn amazing too.

Ruinator is a shame too considering it's actually decent, but it's BST so again no one cares. All of the good WS are tempered in some way by the jobs that actually use them aside from Shoha, but it's kinda obvious why SAM gets nice toys.

BST is kinda a big deal now. Lots of people have or are leveling it because it's pretty useful for soloing anything just about anything in the game, it's also now a legit heavy DD thanks to new pets that kick ass, compared to the old weaklings they had before. Ruinator is amazing 5/5.

Last Stand: Situationally comparable to Wildfire if and only if you have the Attack to support it, but not nearly as useful. Does not blow the Empyrean out of the water.

The situation is outside of abyssea, then yes, Last stand is situationally useful. As endgame starts to finally balance out, you're going to see even more magic resistant mobs coming. It also depends on Buffs/debuffs on the target and the job using the gun. For example on RNG you have to be in a pretty poor situation on a mob with no magic damage resistance for Wildfire to pull ahead. Otherwise you'd use a big ass gun and a big ass bullet and use Last stand.

Fun side note: On trash mobs THF can play with multihit daggers and a culverin and spam last stand like a KC RNG in the old days. No real point but it's pretty fun.

"Fucking Awesome"? Hardly. Even the best are sidegrades aside from Tachi: Shoha and Stardiver, 2/12 relevant WS. No I'm not going to count Staff and Club because I honestly don't give a damn. No point giving awesome WS to those weapons if no one's capable of using them to any degree of proficiency.

Tachi: Shoha, Stardiver, Entropy, Resolution, Ruinator, Exenterator, Shijin Spiral, and Last stand are at least situationally if not ALWAYS the strongest WS of their weapon type outside of abyssea. That qualifies them as fucking awesome.

Blade Shun is pretty damn close to awesome, it's a solid upgrade barring Kannagi

Apex, Upheaval, and Requiescat are situationally useful.

Realmrazer is just sad and lonely hoping someone's taking WAR/PLD/SAM to apollyon SE lol.

You've shown you know very little about a lot.

**Greatguardian** · 01-06-2012 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I wouldn't say "Destroy", The WS itself is rather powerful, In Voidwatch I've peaked 3k+ Stacked or higher. I don't really pay much attention, I Can dig up some parses. But its pretty good.

But yah, Mercy Stroke/Rudra's is what puts it to shame, But your THF Friend should use it -alot- If you're fighting a mob you zerg/Beat to piss almost non-stop. (Like say, Akvan, or anytime you have a Fanatics up)

Well, It really does perform quite well in dynamis, Unstacked and Stacked - Again, Unless you have Rudra's Mercy.

Either way, I think despite how baddly i word somethings, We essentially agree. its great uNstacked/Stacked if you don't have a Relic. Still, as far as THF Weaponskills Go? its #1 Unstacked, #3 Stacked.

I use it enormously, But this will probably slow down when i get my Mandau :X

We're basically on the same page, yeah. I just figure if I'm going to knock Shijin down as being inferior to Smite unless you have Spharai, then it's at least consistent to say that Extent is inferior to Rudra/Mercy unless you're stacking it outside Abyssea (Stacked Rudra/Mercy will always win in/out, and Evis unstacked should win inside).

It's just not often that I see unstacked dagger WS outside Abyssea, personally. Especially after the introduction of White proc, and given just how big a pain in the ass a lot of the new NMs are if fought for too long, terrorlock zergs with White are pretty much the most effective way to VW at the moment and one-handers are generally not too apt in those situations.

If someone doesn't have Rudra's/Mercy, Extent is nice. But that's also like saying Raging Rush is nice if you don't have Ukko's Fury. I'm more concerned with the end-goal than the interim WS. If something can't stay useful past a certain point of character development, then it's really not that useful at all.

Edit:

Post above me,

Am building Spharai, because it's better. No complaints there.

See discussion on Extenterator over the past couple of pages for comments there. Extent is worthless because Thief and Dancer are not useful on any content where Extent would actually be used at all.

No one gives a shit about BST or BST solo.

Ranger? Get a Gandiva. Corsair? Last Stand is not beating Wildfire unless you're rocking Gjallar Mins, RCB, possibly Berserk (though subbing WAR is a bad idea overall), and fighting a fairly weak target. It's situationally useful on targets that resist Fire or Magical damage. It is not an Arma-killer.

I missed Resolution, though.

Resolution, Tachi: Shoha, and Stardiver are pretty nice and are actually used to some effect on quasi-relevant jobs.

Ruinator sucks because BST is trash. Shijin Spiral is literally only able to keep pace with Vereth when you have a 130Million gil weapon and a literally perfect WS set - hardly a WS that blows Smite out of the water. Last Stand is weaker than Wildfire on the only job that should be using it at all unless you're getting extreme buffs. Entropy is irrelevant because Resolution is better.

Having fun with your Spherical Chickens?

I like doing math in a vacuum too. It's so much easier when you don't have to look at the reality of the situation and realize that a WS could have 15 fTP and a 300% STR mod and no one would give a flying fuck about it if that WS was SCH specific on Staff.

**Prothscar** · 01-06-2012 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by darkhorror

I guess you never tested it on BST, BLU corrosive ooze sucks, Beastmasters doesn't. I am going to sleep now and I couldn't get my attack low enough to test to see exact number yet but it's well over 25%. as fighting beetles where I brought my attack low enough so they would con high defense. Then used corrosive ooze they then conned low defense, I didn't have low enough attack to get it to where they would con neutral, i'll test tomorrow while using a dagger so I can lower my attack enough to see how much def- it actually is.

What part of that makes you think I wasn't on BST? Again, use limules. They're far easier to manage. Accounting for possible errors in the test, most I could see is 25% for a somewhat short duration. 33% for both sounds high.

Just went and got two sample sets very quickly.

No debuff
444 atk
278 def

Debuff 1
332 atk
208 def

Debuff 2
296 atk
185 def

Set 1 coincides with almost exactly a 25% decrease to both stats.

Set 2 coincides with an oddball decimal between 33% and 34% decreases to both stats.

Variable effect seems likely, or it may degrade over time.

Another odd set.

388
243

Almost exactly coincides with a 12.5% decrease to both stats.

Possibly a bug with the test server, as a variable Attack/Defense debuff doesn't seem right.

**Return1** · 01-06-2012 05:17 PM

So essentially your argument is I think these jobs are useless so any powerful WSes for them sucks?

God you're a gigantic retard.

And so is your Get <Item> Argument, like you're gonna solo it fast if you have a life (the having a life argument is valid here because if you have a life sitting in a room by yourself fighting polygons by yourself for hours on end is just...), or your group is going to be cool farming you every time you want to pick up a job, before you.

Of course you think THF is useless in content where Exenterator would be used, like Dynamis/Nyzul/Limbus, all things where TH plays a large role and have been or will soon be upgraded.

Entropy is irrelevant because Resolution is better.

Entropy isn't so far behind Resolution as you would think. Resolution is ahead in fTP, and the STR mod is better than Entropy's INT mod, though not by nearly as much as people imagine today. But the tradeoff is the -8% ATK, and slower WS due to a 6-hit vs 5-hit.

The best DRK DD setup involves Apoc and Entropy builds.

The only reason most DRKs complain about Entropy is that they suck.

Though it's hyperbole, a SCH with a 15fTP and 300%STR WS would be the best DD in the game, but people like you would still call it useless. Which is funny because thet's the position BST is in now as a DD. It's actually pretty high up there thanks to gear/pet/ability advancements, but fools still disregard it.

**FrankReynolds** · 01-06-2012 10:41 PM