New Weaponskills - Not what was expected

[Prothscar]

You must have tested on blue before because you said it was 5% which is what BLU does for corrosive ooze.

Your results could be due to some sort of resistance though that would be strange, also what buffs, food, gear did you have when getting those numbers?

I did a test vs beetles where I know their defense, it did lower their defense by 33%. aka their (mob defense)*.666, or (mob defense)/1.5

I guess now I need to go look for something with a lot of fire resistance which I can test on.

For the fifth time I did not test on BLU

[Mavrick]

What part of that makes you think I wasn't on BST? Again, use limules. They're far easier to manage. Accounting for possible errors in the test, most I could see is 25% for a somewhat short duration. 33% for both sounds high.

The quote below was taken from a test conducted when the Slug pet and Corrosive Ooze was first released... So unless something was changes they should still be accurate.

Checked again just to be certain:
After using Corrosive Ooze on Chasm Gnat I then brawled on it until it used Pandemic Nip (transfers enfeebles from monster to player), at which point Attack Down and Defense Down was transferred to me.

Before gaining Attack/Defense Down effects
Attack: 549
Defense: 440

After gaining Attack/Defense Down effects
Attack: 366
Defense: 293

So basically lost roughly 1/3 of my original attack and defense.

Duration seems to be around ~90 seconds...

[FrankReynolds]

Which is why you get to choose. Thanks for proving my point.

Ok, I choose to cap 15/15 strength Dex and INT. Can you show me where I do that in the menu? no? guess I don't really get to choose do I? I can either pick being a mediocre DD or a mediocre mage. That's really not much of a choice at all. Take a look at the census. Everyone is meriting the same crap. Removing these caps does nothing but allowing people to play their jobs a little better (IF They choose to invest the time to merit them).

Such a person doesn't care that they aren't getting invited to many things on SAM. They only have it there for when another SAM is not available within their group/linkshell.

Really? Your telling me that it's impossible that that guy could want to cap his merits?

Please point me to the proof that they "knew" this. They knew a few hardcore elitists with no life would do it. They don't balance most of the game around hardcore elitists, because they are a very small percentage of the population.

uhhhh....People who have gone to abyssea exp parties are not a small percentage of the population.

If you can get everything, then there's no real customization now is there?

I was unaware that they added the free relic moogle to the live server so that everyone could have mythics relics and empys at their disposal. Do people not have to earn / quest gear anymore? Is there a new moogle that gives you every piece of gear and leaves nothing up to you but picking your merits? Did they make it so that you automatically get capped merits now?

Since when are the merits the only way to differentiate yourself from another player (not that they do that now. I guarantee that you have nearly the same merits as most other people)?

Actually, not-fully-merited jobs do not "suck." Maybe to your standards, but not to normal person standards. Not meriting a combat skill doesn't cut your damage in half or make your job nonfunctional. You won't perform *as well*, but you can still do what's needed in a pinch if someone who did merit that stuff isn't avialable. The whole goddam point is to make people different.

Actually, since you believe that everyone has the same gear, and there is nothing left to differentiate them but merits..... not having the merits does in fact mean that they suck. Merits can't be unimportant to performance, and also be the only means to differentiate characters at the same time. They are either important or they unimportant. If you don't think they make a significant difference in play, then you should have no reason to care if I cap them all.


Why is being different so important to you? You should be worried about being good. If being good means doing something that no one else thought of yet, then you should do it anyways. They will catch on. If being good means wearing the same gear as everyone else, then you should do that too. Merits are performance enhancements. You can always get a funny T-shirt or something if you want to be different. All this different talk really sounds like "I want to be better than the next guy, but he has access to the same stuff as me ; ;". Isn't him being WHM and you being a Puppet master enough difference?

[Alhanelem]

NOTE: If you'd like to condense all this crap into a single sentence, here we go: "Letting everyone merit all merits to the maximum would be worse for the game than just leaving it as it is now, because it would promote conformity to singular strategies and make many jobs more forgotten than they already are."

The rest of this post is not worth reading unless you're the person whom I'm quoting, so I'll just minimize it for the rest of you.

Actually, since you believe that everyone has the same gear

Where did I say I believe that? Stop twisting words.

Why is being different so important to you? You should be worried about being good.

I'm not worried about being good. Being good is something that happens because you put work and effort into what you do, and I do that. This is just another conformity vs uniqueness debate. I can just flip it around and ask why you want everything to be the same, except gear? and why is gear an acceptable exception when the merit system isn't?

All this different talk really sounds like "I want to be better than the next guy, but he has access to the same stuff as me ; ;".

it might "sound like" it to you, but that's not what it is. It's "I want to be different" not "I want to be better."

Isn't him being WHM and you being a Puppet master enough difference?

Not by itself, nope. "Him" can be better at one and I can be better at another job. The current merit system facilitates that- people who focus on certain jobs can stand out on them more- however this doesn't prevent anyone else from filling the role if that person isn't there.

Really? Your telling me that it's impossible that that guy could want to cap his merits?

No, I'm not telling you that. Given the chance, everyone would want to get all of everything. Why have less when you can have more. MORE MORE MORE GIMME MORE! The merit system makes you make decisions. It's no different than running into a fork in the road. You have to go one way or the other. Are you unable to make such decisions?

uhhhh....People who have gone to abyssea exp parties are not a small percentage of the population.

"people who have gone to abyssea exp parties" and "hardcore elitists" are not the same group of people. The game is not specifically balanced around meeting the needs of the top 0.1% of the playerbase. I suppose you're trying to argue that everyone has gone to an abyssea EXP party and leveled up every job to 99 just because it's not a hard thing to do. It still takes time and some people don't want to play some jobs and most people don't like EXPing so much that they want to level up a job just for the sake of leveling it.

The merit system ensures that people who level up every job can't easily be the best at all of them, totally undermining the efforts of players who have dedicated themselves to mastery of a few classes - not just one, as you can easily choose several within the limits of the merit system-

Players should not be forced to level up all 20 jobs to 99 in order to be considered "good." Devotion to a few and strengthening them as much as possible should make them more valuable when those jobs are needed than the person who leveled up all 20 jobs and doesn't have the best gear and merits for all of them. Because of how fast EXP has gotten and how easy certain events have gotten, it's getting harder and harder to be a master of a few versus a jack of many. If everyone is able to play all classes optimally, then it's really almost like there's only one real class in the game, and on top of that, everyone will just form fit into the most optimal strategy- after all, everybody has everything, so there's no excuse for anything other than the first strategy people find that works to be used. Letting everyone have everything limits possibilities, because everyone will gravitate toward the same method for everything. Someone PLEASE tell me why this is a good thing.

Finally, tying this more to the topic: If you need to have the weapon skills just for the sake of having them, then go ahead and merit all of them. They won't be as strong, sure, but you have them all.

[Windwhisper]

i peronally think. Since new WS are below most existing once even when 5/5 merited we should have had the option to upgrade each and every one of the new ones to 5/5. many of us have more than just 3 jobs they like to play and would have loved to actually use the WS for their main weapon.

Seeing a 3/5 Realmrazer doing 350ish dmg with 300 TP is simply disspointing and not worth the 3 merits at all.

[FrankReynolds]

Where did I say I believe that? Stop twisting words.

It's not twisting words. It's deductive reasoning. If you think that the only way to differentiate your character from the next is through merits, then clearly that means that all differences in gear and play style have been eliminated. Hence : "everyone has the same gear".

I'm not worried about being good. Being good is something that happens because you put work and effort into what you do, and I do that. This is just another conformity vs uniqueness debate. I can just flip it around and ask why you want everything to be the same, except gear? and why is gear an acceptable exception when the merit system isn't?

Because the amount of effort required to completely max out all gear is substantial enough that no one would conceivably achieve that. Thus the chances of a player capping out on gear will be limited to a few jobs at most. Merits on the other hand can be easily capped out, and therefore create an artificial barrier that has very little to do with skill, time or effort. If people could cap all those categories, most still wouldn't by choice. I challenge you to point me at even one player who can say that they have absolutely nothing left that they can do to make their gear better, and are therefore powerless to be different. Some will say they are done, but if you put their gear under a microscope, you will find flaw. There is always room to tweak gear, and the degree to which it is done is up to the player to determine ( choice ).

it might "sound like" it to you, but that's not what it is. It's "I want to be different" not "I want to be better."

Then why are you worrying about performance enhancing traits? Become a melee mage, or play samurai as a support job.

Not by itself, nope. "Him" can be better at one and I can be better at another job. The current merit system facilitates that- people who focus on certain jobs can stand out on them more- however this doesn't prevent anyone else from filling the role if that person isn't there.

IF I play 8 hours a day on 2 jobs, and you play 2 hours a day on 1, you getting to be better at the 1 despite the fact that I play them more is ridiculous.

Are you unable to make such decisions?

When leveling 1 job was an enormous freaking chore, having that fork was not really much of a fork at all. The choice was easy because most people only had a couple jobs and rarely had to sacrifice anything. Many of them had unpopular jobs, and had a hard time even getting the merits in the first place. That is no longer the case.

"people who have gone to abyssea exp parties" and "hardcore elitists" are not the same group of people. The game is not specifically balanced around meeting the needs of the top 0.1% of the playerbase. I suppose you're trying to argue that everyone has gone to an abyssea EXP party and leveled up every job to 99 just because it's not a hard thing to do. It still takes time and some people don't want to play some jobs and most people don't like EXPing so much that they want to level up a job just for the sake of leveling it.

I know, that's why we don't need the caps. People aren't going to do everything anyways. It's simply an added benefit to the longtime players and people who have more time. Everyone isn't going to suddenly have all the merits and all be the same like you describe. They will all still have 3-7 jobs leveled on avg, and ignore the categories that don't suit their needs.

The merit system ensures that people who level up every job can't easily be the best at all of them, totally undermining the efforts of players who have dedicated themselves to mastery of a few classes - not just one, as you can easily choose several within the limits of the merit system-

Sounds good in theory. In practice, That guy who has all jobs 99 probably has shit gear for half of them, and even if he magically got all the best gear for every job, he still wouldn't play them all as well as someone who plays that with a passion. I thought you wanted to be different anyways, not the best.

Letting everyone have everything limits possibilities, because everyone will gravitate toward the same method for everything. Someone PLEASE tell me why this is a good thing.

Its not letting everyone have everything. They still have to gear and master these jobs. I really don't know where your getting that.

[Alhanelem]

If you think that the only way to differentiate your character from the next is through merits, then clearly that means that all differences in gear and play style have been eliminated. Hence

I don't think that it's the ONLY way to differentiate. But I DO think (because it's a fact) that the merit system was designed to provide more ways to differentiate your character. Also, gear doesn't differentiate us as much as I would like because you see a lot of people gravitating toward a small pool of gear deemed to be "the best." Merits do have a similar problem, but it's not as pronounced because not every potential choice to be made with merits is as clear-cut.

Its not letting everyone have everything. They still have to gear and master these jobs. I really don't know where your getting that.

It IS letting everyone have everything. Everyone is talking about how easy it is to get EXP and merits. using the logic poised by others, it should take very little time to "master" those jobs.

i peronally think. Since new WS are below most existing once even when 5/5 merited we should have had the option to upgrade each and every one of the new ones to 5/5. many of us have more than just 3 jobs they like to play and would have loved to actually use the WS for their main weapon.

It doesn't follow. The problem you pose doesn't really tie in at all to why you think people should be able to get everything. The quality of the weapon skills is not a reason to allow getting them all. If you think they're so bad, even 5/5, then that should make your decision about which ones to get even easier. Why waste your time getting them at all if you're so disappointed by them?

IF I play 8 hours a day on 2 jobs, and you play 2 hours a day on 1, you getting to be better at the 1 despite the fact that I play them more is ridiculous.

You're not making much sense with your example, because you're playing more on each of the two jobs than the other person is on one. You're going to be buffed up and stronger on both of them before the other person gets done with one. So no, I'm not going to be stronger on the one job then you are on either of the two- We're still within the limits of the merit system here. Now if we both spent 4 hours playing, yes, I do deserve to be stronger on the one job than you are on either of the two. However, you still have an advantage of greater flexibility for any given situation. Leveling up a few classes vs. all of them should be a simple matter of being jack of many trades vs master of few. The flexibility of being able to choose any job compensates for the slight decrease in power from not having optimal merits for all of those jobs.

People aren't going to do everything anyways.

But some people WILL get everything, otherwise we wouldn't have any reason to be asking for it. And those few people who do get everything will have an even bigger advantage over those who don't, forcing people to do things they might not really want to do just to keep up, sucking some of the fun out of playing.

Supporters of removing the limits are treating the merit system as nothing more than post levelcap level-ups. That's part of its purpose, but not the whole purpose. Customization is part of the purpose too, and there is no customization if you get to obtain all merits.

[Unleashhell]

Most people won't bother to merit everything. Especially if the caps on these require high numbers of merits, like 30 - 50 per level. Capping WS and non job specific stuff doesn't make everyone a special snowflake. It just annoys the people who want to do more.

Think hard. Do you want your <insert job here> to be the best one around because you spent time getting all your gear sets, and macros, and play style straight? or do you want it to be because there was a lack of competition due to people being capped on merits, and not liking that job as much? Personally, I want my dancer to be bad ass because I made it bad ass. Not because everyone else merited GA, GK, and H2h.

"Most people won't bother to merit everything."
......
Isnt this my point? If people wont bother meriting all their combat skills anyway (your words) why do we need to have them all meritable? So back to having 3-4 jobs being able to merit combat skills fully is the way it should be then. They should raise the amount of limit points so you can merit 4-5 weapons instead of 3.

And to your second part of what you are saying, no I'm not to concerned about the other jobs past the 3 I can fully merit combat skills for. Reason why? because I hardly ever play them... I leveled those jobs for flexibility not to be the best most awesome uber spectacular person at every job. TBH I suck at mage jobs, why should I care if the combat skills are merited or not for mage jobs? I'm on PLD 95% of the time I play because its the job I love the most. The reverse might be for someone who is a career WHM. If they hate or know they suck at melee jobs why should they care about being able to merit the combat skills for those jobs?

I think being able to merit 5 offensive combat skills fully is perfect imo.

[Alhanelem]

The number of weaponskills to cap should be upped to match the number of skills you can cap. And if they increase the number of skills again, I'd be fine with them increasing the WS number again. But they shouldn't just up and unlock it all.

[Return1]

What happened to Relics/Emps being easy to grind out?

No one said they were hard. They're time consuming. Very time consuming.

Extenterator should almost never be used in Dynamis unless you're doing Arch NMs, and we have no idea where Nyzul and Limbus changes will leave the job. Current Nyzul changes look like complete and utter trash, so it may not be relevant at all. How does Dynamis flow? Sit and try to proc mob > Proc > Run behind it > SA Mercy > mob is dead. Rinse and repeat.

Then you're doing it wrong. Solo in dynamis you should be killing as fast as possible on WS proc mobs, that means most of your WSes are unstacked. Why? Forgotten items sell for far more than currency, and sell fast. Forgotten items drop rate is independent of procs. You can solo farm the equivalent of 300-500 currency in forgotten items and sell them. Groups should do the same, though some groups prefer a BST or DNC to tag along for White Procs. BST is good because pet WSes count as JA and they only nerfed AoE Spells and WSes ability to proc multiple mobs.

Limbus has seen a bit of a rebirth since people are doing it to get their AF+1 and ABCs ready for AF+2.

It doesn't matter if Nyzul 2.0 is trash,it's focus is slaughter, and people are going to do it because +5 pieces are fucking awesome. Hell Nyzul 1.0 has also seen a bit of a resurgence because people are farming Askar/Denali/Goliard that they didn't bother with before.

A SCH with a 15fTP and 300% STR WS would still be shit because you're throwing a nice WS onto a shit job with no gear, abilities, or traits to back up the power of the WS. You'll never, ever cap cRatio on SCH and you sure as hell aren't going to be TP'ing or WS'ing in any reasonable setup. A 300% STR WSC is extremely gear-dependent, and if there's one thing SCH certainly isn't overflowing with it's STR/DD gear.

It's ignorant shit like this that proves you have no idea how game mechanics work. Off the top of my head a Hume SCH/Melee can easily break 150 STR outside abyssea. That's 382 base DMG before you count the weapon and fSTR. Say it only came out to 450 base DMG. That's 6750 DMG after fTP. With enough buffs and debuffs, SCH could reach 1.0 cRatio on just about anything in the game. SCH could also sub THF for upwards of 13000 damage on NMs. This is outside abyssea, and without DA/TA figured in.

I'd like to see what you consider "high up there", but you'll probably just throw more spherical chickens at me like how Analhelm insists that PUP is "a really good DD if anyone gives it a chance".

Your whole argument essentially boils down to jobs that aren't MNK or WAR suck. That's your only argument, which doesn't even fit. You're saying a WS is useless, but it just happens to be the strongest of its type. We should just delete Axes and BST because you were wrong about it? You're backpedaling into a retarded argument because you know you fucked up.

I also hate to shatter your sad -wannabe- elitist worldviews circa 2006, but jobs like PUP, BST, and DRK have really caught up in the DD department.

PUP was laughably bad because it had a C in HTH, no MA despite specializing in HTH, couldn't use the strongest HTH WSes, horrible gear (fucking belicose mantle at 75?), and a weak pet with a long cooldown. Now PUP has B+ HTH, native MA, Stringing Pummel and Victory Smite, melee and pet enhancing gear that is actually good, a stronger pet with new/improved attachments, and DEA. It's a completely different job.

BST sucked because it had no native DD boosts, and it's jug pets were pathetically weak. Now BST has jug pets that are far more powerful, we're talking leagues ahead in DD, and now a new WS that helps BST's lack of native ATK boosts by having a big one built in. Not to mention boosts to pets through gear, new JT, and pet survival options.

DRK sucked because it was a WAR-5. Now with the LR buff and endark it's actually up there on its own without SE Zergs.


Shit has changed and as we go on, outside abyssea, the gaps between jobs are at an all time low and shrinking.