New Weaponskills - Not what was expected

[Unleashhell]

I can understand why people are saying that you should be able to merit everything. Personally I don't see why you should be able to merit all the combat skills. Why even have a merit system? Just raise the cap on all combat skills and take off the merit system entirely. It would come out to be the same would it not? The merit system is designed for the player to customize two - three jobs that separate them from the rest of the jobs you level. Making those two or three jobs, the ones you put the most time into to gear and play the most. Keep in mind we are not talking job ability timers here we are talking combat skill only. Personally I would like to see 8 more upgrades in the combat skills category and an expansion in the "others" category, that adds other features to merit.

[Dreamin]

And if you have more than 2-3 jobs that you used on a regular basis? You can't be good at every one of them is that what you're saying?

[Zinato]

gogogo limited possibility:
Add a 3per slot/type limit to number of trial you can finish (3empyrean armor+2, 3relic+2, 3 weapon)
Add special Rare tag on R/EX armor that let you only get one item from the different "set" (if you get toci's you cant get heka's or mekira)
add a 1per slot limit on cursed equipment you can uncursed,salvage you can upgrade....
add a 3limit to job you can lvl over95 since you can't be efficient with more than 3

Oh i've got one, make 3 different types of customizable gear for a few armor slots, then make them customize further so that even the jobs that share gear dont benefit from the stats. Surely nothing like that would ever happen forcing you to choose something so helpful as -10% DT/pet haste 5% between something like smn or bst, greatly weakening the other. They wouldnt do that right?

[brayen]

Oh i've got one, make 3 different types of customizable gear for a few armor slots, then make them customize further so that even the jobs that share gear dont benefit from the stats. Surely nothing like that would ever happen forcing you to choose something so helpful as -10% DT/pet haste 5% between something like smn or bst, greatly weakening the other. They wouldnt do that right?

wow no u did not, u just pulled out the mini mission expansion rewards, omg those gears are so game breaking! did you know wearing them allows you to do something unique...oh wait it doesn't lol Christ 99% of the augments are and always were worthless on those rewards, did you really just use that as an argument? lol

[Zinato]

This is my problem the pet stats are not match to pet jobs, mage to mage, melee to melee, evasion to evasion. this is the one and only split that really suck because its such an incredible augment. And as you just stated most are crap, this one is of the few that is not.

[Unleashhell]

And if you have more than 2-3 jobs that you used on a regular basis? You can't be good at every one of them is that what you're saying?

Has nothing to do with being good at any or all of your jobs. It has to do with what is the point of the merit system for combat skills if everyone just want to be able to merit them all?

[Alhanelem]

I can understand why people are saying that you should be able to merit everything. Personally I don't see why you should be able to merit all the combat skills. Why even have a merit system? Just raise the cap on all combat skills and take off the merit system entirely. It would come out to be the same would it not? The merit system is designed for the player to customize two - three jobs that separate them from the rest of the jobs you level. Making those two or three jobs, the ones you put the most time into to gear and play the most. Keep in mind we are not talking job ability timers here we are talking combat skill only. Personally I would like to see 8 more upgrades in the combat skills category and an expansion in the "others" category, that adds other features to merit.

Pretty much this- Why even have the combat skill merits if you can get them all? May as well just raise the skill caps. Why even have merit WS if you can get them all? May as well make them auto-learnable.

People don't seem to understand why these things were placed in the merit system in the first place. If they wanted us to be able to get them all, they would have just made them generally available instead of having a merit point system.

That's why that game sucks, and I don't play it. x5

Your opinions are not facts. Clearly, all of those example games have plenty of fans. All of those example games have some mechanics similar to FFXI, and the best defense you can come up with is "those games suck so I don't play them?" That doesn't negate the point.

So basically, you hate any game where you can't be and get everything all at once. You hate making decisions and you want everything served to you on a silver platter. Where is the fun in that?

FFXI was designed to let you switch between jobs, yes. But it was NOT designed with the assumption that everyone would play every single job and level them all up to maximum- the developers themselves said they did not expect people to do this and were suprised at the number of people who did (this came up in discussions about storage space). Even for the people that do, most of them like playing certain jobs more than others, and will gear and merit for those jobs. They are still 100% capable of playing all 20 of them, they just tweak out their favorites a little more. This is not a bad thing, it's a good thing and should be encouraged.

You can't be good at every one of them is that what you're saying?

You CAN be good at every one of them. Merits are not so gamebreaking that a job is unplayable without its associated combat skill or magic skill merited to maximum or its weapon skill merited to maximum or attribute merited to maximum. Mathy elite types, feel free to chime in here and tell me the approximate impact on your performance with a weapon that doesn't have 8/8 merits in its combat skill vs the same one that does, but I don't think it's that significant. Unless you're a MNK, it's mostly about accuracy not damage, and what A+ skill DD can't easily max its accuracy anyway?

You can be good at all 20 jobs, and slightly better at a few of them. Just because you didn't 8/8 greataxe doesn't mean you can't bust one out on WAR if your group really needs it.

Merit points ARE talent trees, just without the tree structure.

A less punishing way to respec your merits is all the game really needs. Refund at least some of the merit points spent and have no time restrictions, or refund all merit points spent on something but place a cooldown on it. If you change your mind about something, it should be reasonably easy to do so. That way you can change something without going "crap, now I have to grind for a few more hours to change the merits I've already gotten". I think that's fair and reasonable.

[FrankReynolds]

Has nothing to do with being good at any or all of your jobs. It has to do with what is the point of the merit system for combat skills if everyone just want to be able to merit them all?

The point is that If you merit the skills then you are better than the people who didn't bother.

One of FFXI's biggest selling points is the ability to play multiple jobs / classes on one character. Merits in jobs specific categories are somewhat understandable because they don't limit you to just being good at one job, and rarely even force you to decide how to play the specific job that they are for, due to the fact that many of the categories are not something people would want to boost. Being limited to the number of merits that you can put into non job specific merits limits your ability to use the job change feature at all.

Unlocking them doesn't mean that people will just automatically have all the same crap.

[Seriha]

The "point" of the merit system is basically something to do with EXP once you're level capped instead of slowly letting us creep to level 255 or something that'd otherwise destroy game difficulty. If you're of the mind that everyone being 8/8 in all weapon and magic categories as well as capping job specific merits would do the same, I'm not really sure what to say other than it wouldn't.

I'm going to perform what some may consider blasphemy and bring up Rift's Planar Attunement system. It's basically that game's equivalent of merits. For every 500k EXP you get once you're 50, you're given 100 points than you can spend in one of the six elemental trees. Each tree has three tiers and the trees are all different per class. To unlock a given element's tier, you have to completely fill out the tier prior. To go from T1 to T2, it's something like 74 post-50 level ups. As for the what the system offers, each element tends to favor a given attribute or two like Vitality or Strength. Each slot on the grid, depending on the upgrade, can be leveled up to 4 times with each successful level costing more of the points you gain with each ding.

The kicker here is that Trion doesn't say, "You can only pick one element tree, sorry!" If you're ambitious enough, you can spend the great deal of time it would take to max all of them. When I was playing, depending on what I opted to do that day, I usually strove to get at least one PA level. This often involved doing a few world events, quest dailies, and then maybe tanking a dungeon for a guild run or two. It probably took me about two months to cap the Earth plane's T1, and I consider myself somewhere between the casual and hardcore line of player. And this is only one character in a game where if I wanted to be the Mage, Cleric, or Rogue callings, I'd have to level another character entirely and do it all again for them.

But you know what? I consider it an intelligent time sink. Why? For starters, it doesn't waste EXP post-50. It's something you can use to build your character alongside doing your usual activities. Finally, the only thing stopping you from utilizing it is yourself. Don't be fooled, though, even if an individual character is limited to one of the four callings, they still have a number of souls not unlike FFXI's job system, complete with the ability to mix and match. While I didn't personally take the time to chase gear for damage dealing purposes on my Warrior when a tank wasn't needed, the option was there, and my PA investments would've helped.

FFXI is ultimately no different in this regard. However, jobs like PLD, DRK, WAR, SAM, and DRG aren't locked to a generic warrior paradigm while a rogue type would contain THF, DNC, NIN, RNG, COR, and so on and so forth. Very few people level multiple characters on the same account. The game never encouraged it and there's no true benefit to doing so. As a consequence, the limitations of the merit system stick out like a sore thumb for those whose "favorites" don't synergize well with their merit choices. My current favorite jobs are probably RDM, BLU, DRK, and THF. Sword works for RDM and BLU, Dagger for THF and RDM, but Great Sword would only help DRK even though I also have WAR and PLD leveled. I ultimately wound up putting my combat merits in Sword, Dagger, Axe, and Club because I came to the conclusion that one-handed jobs needed the ATK/ACC help more than two-handers. I've never been big into the H2H jobs, ruling that out, and Katana only applies to NIN even though I realize they're also a one-handed job. If I had the choice to merit everything, though, you'd bet your britches I would. I wouldn't have it done the day after patch, or probably not even a month or two after. It'd still be something to do with a resource that I'll otherwise soon be wasting once I polish off STR merits and decide on a third WS to merit. Yeah, I'm one of the kooks with her other 75+ jobs' merits capped. Why? I play a fair deal. Why? I don't limit myself to my favorite jobs because sometimes my friends and linkshell need something specific that nobody else available can offer.

So, kindly bleep off with the logic that I have to settle for being inferior because someone with less play time or drive might have their feelings hurt by not being "as dedicated" as me or anyone like me. I just want to do my own thing in peace with my pals. Furthermore, the merit system can always be built upon, just like how the new WS or G2s were added to it.

[Greatguardian]

The New WSes are fucking awesome, and some of the crap I've read in this thread is just outright wrong.

Apex Arrow: Situationally the best Archery WS.

Blade: Shun: Best katana WS outside of abyssea barring Blade: Hi.

Entropy: Hands down the most damaging Scythe WS in the game by a large margin.

Exenterator: A THF/DNC WS with a 100% AGI mod, what else needs be said?

Last Stand: 4.4 fTP with 100% AGI mod for gun. THF can also use without /RNG.

Realmrazer: Sucks if you have Hexa.

Requiescat: Sucks because of the -20% Attack penalty, the 100% MND mod is pretty reasonably since it's mostly PLD/RDM/BLU.

Resolution: Extremely powerful now that the -ATK has been reduced to -8%. 100% STR mod.

Ruinator: Shits all over Rampage outside of Abyssea, barring obscene defense. 100% STR mod, Belt/Gorgets across all hits with base fTP of 1.0 and a large attack boost.

Shattersoul: If for some reason you're meleeing as a Mage, this is the best staff WS.

Shijin Spiral: Already known to be awesome.

Stardiver: Strongest Polearm WS in the game outside of abyssea. Twice the STR mod, slightly less fTP, but no gigantic ATK down like Drakes.

Tachi: Shoha: 100% STR mod, huge ATK bonus, and stacks with TP Bonus even better than Y/G/K.

Upheaval: Only really good with Mighty Strikes, in which case, it's the best.

List is crap.

Apex? Get a Gandiva.

Blade: Shun? Get a Kannagi.

Entropy? Tell the DRKs that.

Requiescat? Get an Almace.

Last Stand: Situationally comparable to Wildfire if and only if you have the Attack to support it, but not nearly as useful. Does not blow the Empyrean out of the water.

Realmrazer: No one else uses clubs. Paladin? Get an Almace. Blu? Get an Almace.

Shattersoul: No one really cares, to be honest. Could have been put to better use on a better weapon type.

Shijin: Requires a relic to barely edge out Verethragna. Get a Verethragna.

Oh yeah, Exenterator: What needs to be said is it only does well outside Abyssea, and only if you're not stacking a force-crit JA with it. Both dagger users have force-crit JAs. It's a situational sidegrade WS that's inherently tied down by the fact that you don't often see situations where Dagger users are actually in groups large enough to give them the support spells required (and to fight the large monster types required) to do a meaningful number of WS without a force-crit. WS frequency is inhibited when spamming weak mobs, which is where you most often see Dncs and Thfs.

"Fucking Awesome"? Hardly. Even the best are sidegrades aside from Tachi: Shoha and Stardiver, 2/12 relevant WS. No I'm not going to count Staff and Club because I honestly don't give a damn. No point giving awesome WS to those weapons if no one's capable of using them to any degree of proficiency.

Ruinator is a shame too considering it's actually decent, but it's BST so again no one cares. All of the good WS are tempered in some way by the jobs that actually use them aside from Shoha, but it's kinda obvious why SAM gets nice toys.