New Weaponskills - Not what was expected

[Unleashhell]

The point is that If you merit the skills then you are better than the people who didn't bother.

One of FFXI's biggest selling points is the ability to play multiple jobs / classes on one character. Merits in jobs specific categories are somewhat understandable because they don't limit you to just being good at one job, and rarely even force you to decide how to play the specific job that they are for, due to the fact that many of the categories are not something people would want to boost. Being limited to the number of merits that you can put into non job specific merits limits your ability to use the job change feature at all.

Unlocking them doesn't mean that people will just automatically have all the same crap.

So again why even have a combat skill merit category? Why not just cap the skill for all weapons at a certain point? Maybe I'm not wording things correctly, but for instance if you cap at sword at 424 then add your 8/8 merits you will have 440 skill. Why not just raise the skill level to cap out at 440 to begin with and eliminate the combat skill merit category all together? Being everyone wants to fully merit every single combat skill to its fullest it totally makes the combat merit system pointless. Once you fully merit every skill to its cap there is no diversity between people in the combat skill category if they all have capped combat skill merits.

[FrankReynolds]

So again why even have a combat skill merit category? Why not just cap the skill for all weapons at a certain point? Maybe I'm not wording things correctly, but for instance if you cap at sword at 424 then add your 8/8 merits you will have 440 skill. Why not just raise the skill level to cap out at 440 to begin with and eliminate the combat skill merit category all together? Being everyone wants to fully merit every single combat skill to its fullest it totally makes the combat merit system pointless. Once you fully merit every skill to its cap there is no diversity between people in the combat skill category if they all have capped combat skill merits.

Most people won't bother to merit everything. Especially if the caps on these require high numbers of merits, like 30 - 50 per level. Capping WS and non job specific stuff doesn't make everyone a special snowflake. It just annoys the people who want to do more.

Think hard. Do you want your <insert job here> to be the best one around because you spent time getting all your gear sets, and macros, and play style straight? or do you want it to be because there was a lack of competition due to people being capped on merits, and not liking that job as much? Personally, I want my dancer to be bad ass because I made it bad ass. Not because everyone else merited GA, GK, and H2h.

[Seriha]

The "point" of the merit system is basically something to do with EXP once you're level capped instead of slowly letting us creep to level 255 or something that'd otherwise destroy game difficulty. If you're of the mind that everyone being 8/8 in all weapon and magic categories as well as capping job specific merits would do the same, I'm not really sure what to say other than it wouldn't.

I'm going to perform what some may consider blasphemy and bring up Rift's Planar Attunement system. It's basically that game's equivalent of merits. For every 500k EXP you get once you're 50, you're given 100 points than you can spend in one of the six elemental trees. Each tree has three tiers and the trees are all different per class. To unlock a given element's tier, you have to completely fill out the tier prior. To go from T1 to T2, it's something like 74 post-50 level ups. As for the what the system offers, each element tends to favor a given attribute or two like Vitality or Strength. Each slot on the grid, depending on the upgrade, can be leveled up to 4 times with each successful level costing more of the points you gain with each ding.

The kicker here is that Trion doesn't say, "You can only pick one element tree, sorry!" If you're ambitious enough, you can spend the great deal of time it would take to max all of them. When I was playing, depending on what I opted to do that day, I usually strove to get at least one PA level. This often involved doing a few world events, quest dailies, and then maybe tanking a dungeon for a guild run or two. It probably took me about two months to cap the Earth plane's T1, and I consider myself somewhere between the casual and hardcore line of player. And this is only one character in a game where if I wanted to be the Mage, Cleric, or Rogue callings, I'd have to level another character entirely and do it all again for them.

But you know what? I consider it an intelligent time sink. Why? For starters, it doesn't waste EXP post-50. It's something you can use to build your character alongside doing your usual activities. Finally, the only thing stopping you from utilizing it is yourself. Don't be fooled, though, even if an individual character is limited to one of the four callings, they still have a number of souls not unlike FFXI's job system, complete with the ability to mix and match. While I didn't personally take the time to chase gear for damage dealing purposes on my Warrior when a tank wasn't needed, the option was there, and my PA investments would've helped.

FFXI is ultimately no different in this regard. However, jobs like PLD, DRK, WAR, SAM, and DRG aren't locked to a generic warrior paradigm while a rogue type would contain THF, DNC, NIN, RNG, COR, and so on and so forth. Very few people level multiple characters on the same account. The game never encouraged it and there's no true benefit to doing so. As a consequence, the limitations of the merit system stick out like a sore thumb for those whose "favorites" don't synergize well with their merit choices. My current favorite jobs are probably RDM, BLU, DRK, and THF. Sword works for RDM and BLU, Dagger for THF and RDM, but Great Sword would only help DRK even though I also have WAR and PLD leveled. I ultimately wound up putting my combat merits in Sword, Dagger, Axe, and Club because I came to the conclusion that one-handed jobs needed the ATK/ACC help more than two-handers. I've never been big into the H2H jobs, ruling that out, and Katana only applies to NIN even though I realize they're also a one-handed job. If I had the choice to merit everything, though, you'd bet your britches I would. I wouldn't have it done the day after patch, or probably not even a month or two after. It'd still be something to do with a resource that I'll otherwise soon be wasting once I polish off STR merits and decide on a third WS to merit. Yeah, I'm one of the kooks with her other 75+ jobs' merits capped. Why? I play a fair deal. Why? I don't limit myself to my favorite jobs because sometimes my friends and linkshell need something specific that nobody else available can offer.

So, kindly bleep off with the logic that I have to settle for being inferior because someone with less play time or drive might have their feelings hurt by not being "as dedicated" as me or anyone like me. I just want to do my own thing in peace with my pals. Furthermore, the merit system can always be built upon, just like how the new WS or G2s were added to it.

[Karbuncle]

Oh yeah, Exenterator: What needs to be said is it only does well outside Abyssea, and only if you're not stacking a force-crit JA with it. Both dagger users have force-crit JAs. It's a situational sidegrade WS that's inherently tied down by the fact that you don't often see situations where Dagger users are actually in groups large enough to give them the support spells required (and to fight the large monster types required) to do a meaningful number of WS without a force-crit. WS frequency is inhibited when spamming weak mobs, which is where you most often see Dncs and Thfs.

Really the first time I've seen you say something pretty bad.

Exenterator perform exceptionally well Stacked, as much as unstacked. Being the best Unstacked WS we have give it its Bad-ass Status as is. I'm not sure If you've done a lot of VW on THF (Probably not, Useless etc), but you rarely, RARELY, have SA or TA up when you have TP. more than 80% of my WS I pop off Without SA or TA Timers being up, and Exenterator can do upward 1800~1900 Unstacked on Some of the mobs(Usually around 900~1400) (Hit it a few times on Akvan, Nothing special, Can provide proof if needed :X, But again, Nothing special)

Point being, for a THF WS, It stacks right up there, and its only outclassed "Stacked" If you have Rudra's or Mercy, Its also the best Stacked WS if you don't have Rudra's/Mercy.

Its really nowhere near a Sidegrade, It so far outclasses Evisceration(anywhere outside OF Brokebyssea) and DE its definitely an Upgrade WS, one of the better ones.

Sure, you won't use THF a lot in these situations, Most LS's don't, But for a Thief WS, Ignoring pointless arguments like "lol why bring a THF", its definitely an upgrade to a Thief's arsenal.

Maybe I'm reading what you said wrong :X

[Greatguardian]

Really the first time I've seen you say something pretty bad.

Abyssea is irrelevant, Completely. Anyone with half a brain knows Abyssea is broken so far in favor of Crits theres nothing that can hope to surpass it. Really absolutely no logical reason to mention it.

Exenterator perform exceptionally well Stacked, as much as unstacked. Being the best Unstacked WS we have give it its Bad-ass Status as is. I'm not sure If you've done a lot of VW on THF (Probably not, Useless etc), but you rarely, RARELY, have SA or TA up when you have TP. more than 80% of my WS I pop off Without SA or TA Timers being up, and Exenterator can do upward 1800~1900 Unstacked on Some of the mobs(Usually around 900~1400) (Hit it a few times on Akvan, Nothing special, Can provide proof if needed :X, But again, Nothing special)

Point being, for a THF WS, It stacks right up there, and its only outclassed "Stacked" If you have Rudra's or Mercy, Its also the best Stacked WS if you don't have Rudra's/Mercy.

Its really nowhere near a Sidegrade, It so far outclasses Evisceration(anywhere outside OF Brokebyssea) and DE its definitely an Upgrade WS, one of the better ones.

Sure, you won't use THF a lot in these situations, Most LS's don't, But for a Thief WS, Ignoring pointless arguments like "lol why bring a THF", its definitely an upgrade to a Thief's arsenal.

Maybe I'm reading what you said wrong :X

It's an upgrade over non-Emp/Relic WS for sure, but I'm taking all of the WS in the context of the real "best" counterparts. I don't use Thf myself, but I find that my Mandau buddy very rarely uses Extent because it's so badly outclassed when stacked. Both Rudra's and Mercy should destroy it stacked.

Personally I just don't really see Thf used often outside of Abyssea or Dynamis, which is why I brought those two events up. In Dynamis, you lose out on theoretical WS frequency because you're fighting a lot of weak monsters and waiting for procs a lot, which means you're basically able to SA every WS. In Abyssea, Evisceration will beat it unstacked so there's no contest there either.

If a THF is actually around in Voidwatch, it's probably their best unstacked WS (though still handily beaten by Rudra/Mercy stacked), that's just not a very common application for the WS since Thf and Dnc aren't the most popular additions to VW (especially since TH can't bypass the light cap - changing this would be an incredible buff to the job and would hopefully help a bit in making Voidwatch drops less head-smashingly terrible). It's like how Shattersoul and Ruinator are pretty nice WS on paper, but SmnMelee and Bst being SmnMelee and Bst make the WS significantly less useful in practice. Extenterator is nice outside Abyssea on strong monsters where you have the WS frequency to use multiple unstacked WS. People just don't actually do that.

[Karbuncle]

It's an upgrade over non-Emp/Relic WS for sure, but I'm taking all of the WS in the context of the real "best" counterparts. I don't use Thf myself, but I find that my Mandau buddy very rarely uses Extent because it's so badly outclassed when stacked. Both Rudra's and Mercy should destroy it stacked.

I wouldn't say "Destroy", The WS itself is rather powerful, In Voidwatch I've peaked 3k+ Stacked or higher. I don't really pay much attention, I Can dig up some parses. But its pretty good.

But yah, Mercy Stroke/Rudra's is what puts it to shame, But your THF Friend should use it -alot- If you're fighting a mob you zerg/Beat to piss almost non-stop. (Like say, Akvan, or anytime you have a Fanatics up)

Personally I just don't really see Thf used often outside of Abyssea or Dynamis, which is why I brought those two events up. In Dynamis, you lose out on theoretical WS frequency because you're fighting a lot of weak monsters and waiting for procs a lot, which means you're basically able to SA every WS. In Abyssea, Evisceration will beat it unstacked so there's no contest there either.

Well, It really does perform quite well in dynamis, Unstacked and Stacked - Again, Unless you have Rudra's Mercy.

Either way, I think despite how baddly i word somethings, We essentially agree. its great uNstacked/Stacked if you don't have a Relic. Still, as far as THF Weaponskills Go? its #1 Unstacked, #3 Stacked.

I use it enormously, But this will probably slow down when i get my Mandau :X

[Greatguardian]

I wouldn't say "Destroy", The WS itself is rather powerful, In Voidwatch I've peaked 3k+ Stacked or higher. I don't really pay much attention, I Can dig up some parses. But its pretty good.

But yah, Mercy Stroke/Rudra's is what puts it to shame, But your THF Friend should use it -alot- If you're fighting a mob you zerg/Beat to piss almost non-stop. (Like say, Akvan, or anytime you have a Fanatics up)



Well, It really does perform quite well in dynamis, Unstacked and Stacked - Again, Unless you have Rudra's Mercy.

Either way, I think despite how baddly i word somethings, We essentially agree. its great uNstacked/Stacked if you don't have a Relic. Still, as far as THF Weaponskills Go? its #1 Unstacked, #3 Stacked.

I use it enormously, But this will probably slow down when i get my Mandau :X

We're basically on the same page, yeah. I just figure if I'm going to knock Shijin down as being inferior to Smite unless you have Spharai, then it's at least consistent to say that Extent is inferior to Rudra/Mercy unless you're stacking it outside Abyssea (Stacked Rudra/Mercy will always win in/out, and Evis unstacked should win inside).

It's just not often that I see unstacked dagger WS outside Abyssea, personally. Especially after the introduction of White proc, and given just how big a pain in the ass a lot of the new NMs are if fought for too long, terrorlock zergs with White are pretty much the most effective way to VW at the moment and one-handers are generally not too apt in those situations.

If someone doesn't have Rudra's/Mercy, Extent is nice. But that's also like saying Raging Rush is nice if you don't have Ukko's Fury. I'm more concerned with the end-goal than the interim WS. If something can't stay useful past a certain point of character development, then it's really not that useful at all.

Edit:

Post above me,

Am building Spharai, because it's better. No complaints there.

See discussion on Extenterator over the past couple of pages for comments there. Extent is worthless because Thief and Dancer are not useful on any content where Extent would actually be used at all.

No one gives a shit about BST or BST solo.

Ranger? Get a Gandiva. Corsair? Last Stand is not beating Wildfire unless you're rocking Gjallar Mins, RCB, possibly Berserk (though subbing WAR is a bad idea overall), and fighting a fairly weak target. It's situationally useful on targets that resist Fire or Magical damage. It is not an Arma-killer.

I missed Resolution, though.

Resolution, Tachi: Shoha, and Stardiver are pretty nice and are actually used to some effect on quasi-relevant jobs.

Ruinator sucks because BST is trash. Shijin Spiral is literally only able to keep pace with Vereth when you have a 130Million gil weapon and a literally perfect WS set - hardly a WS that blows Smite out of the water. Last Stand is weaker than Wildfire on the only job that should be using it at all unless you're getting extreme buffs. Entropy is irrelevant because Resolution is better.

Having fun with your Spherical Chickens?

I like doing math in a vacuum too. It's so much easier when you don't have to look at the reality of the situation and realize that a WS could have 15 fTP and a 300% STR mod and no one would give a flying fuck about it if that WS was SCH specific on Staff.

[darkhorror]

Ruinator is quite nice. with normal 5 hits landing(which included DW) you have an ftp of 6.0 at 100% up to 9.6 if you manage 8 hits, an attack bonus higher than 22%, STR mod.

Also BST is underestimated, with something like it's slug pet you can use corrosive ooze which drops the mobs def and attack by a lot, I think 33% though I haven't tested that. This will raise the entire alliance damage by a lot.

[Prothscar]

Slug pet's Corrosive Ooze is analogous of the monster and blue magic version of 5% for both attack and defense down. Sure as shit is not 33%.

[darkhorror]

Slug pet's Corrosive Ooze is analogous of the monster and blue magic version of 5% for both attack and defense down. Sure as shit is not 33%.

Have you tested it out on BST? as I know it's sure as hell isn't 5%