[dev1049] New weapon skills

[FrankReynolds]

I NEVER said I don't like gearing aspect, stop putting words in my mouth. I only said it needs more than gearing aspect. You can , how'd you stand out if other ppl can get every other same gear too?

oh.

A character's uniqueness based on gear grinding, inventory filling and "play style"(which never exist in this game) is pretty lame.

And no. You can't "get every gear in this game literally".

What makes you think it's totally ok for a character with 10 job leveled, and spend 1/10 of time to gear/play PLD should be as good as a career PLD that plays PLD 95% of time, invest 95% of time to work on PLD? If someone's a career PLD, his PLD should be different than average PLDs, period.

If the guy with ten jobs spends more time on paladin than the guy with just paladin, then he should be better. You shouldn't get to be better at a job just because you didn't level another. The quality of your job should be based on the work you put in to it, not the work you didn't put into another job. My WHM mule shouldn't be better than my mains whm just because i leveled nin, monk, thf, dnc, war, red, blm, sum on my main. He's a mule. I put mad work into my main.

<cutting stuff out cuz this is getting ridiculously long> as best as the one who focus?(even though it's very hard in practice)

Again, no one has all the gear. Go read the voidwatch threads if you think gear is raining from the sky. Get over it.

your character needs an identity.

No. You need an identity, and your willing to sacrifice other peoples enjoyment to get one because its easier than getting one by working on your gear / skills.

And there are very little option to, besides grinding gear. You can't develope your own play style by focusing on it because everything is restricted in game code and there are only the most optimal result. If you see someone sucked at one job, it's mostly because of his player skill as an indiviual player, not as a character. If someone sucked at playing PLD, it's mostly because he doesn't read forums, didn't swap gear correctly, and have slower reaction/laggy internet, fat chances are that his other jobs are gonna suck too. Gear difference isn't strength/weakness, since you can literally cap gear and obtain everything. Playing skill difference isn't strength/weakness, since it's, err, player skill as indiviual, and you can be good at all your jobs or suck at all your jobs. Only making choices through race/mission reward/merit are strength/weakness. It addes spice to the game, not JUST about grind gear. You like to grind gear? Sure! But I'm talking about it needs MORE than that, it needs to allow players to make choices, and what's wrong with wanting more?

So what I'm getting from this is that you don't think people who practice, put in work and are skilled at the game should have stronger characters than people who dont have skill or put in work? You think that should be decided by what race / merit they choose?

Go do a survey, blah blah blah disadvantage.

I don't need to do a survey. There are thousands of reasons to pick taru as a character. Having low hp and weak melee stats is not one of them.

No, ppl probably won't pick a taru because they want to be a good DD class, but yes, many picked them because they want to make a "good" mage char. And I'm pretty sure many career taru BLMs love their char as a taru too. Why do you only see the weakness of one char but never see the strength? A taru is typical example of strength/weakness. Your DD is weaker, but your mage is stronger. Does that makes your taru gimp? No, because your taru is a better BLM than an Elvaan BLM in same gear.

Now your agreeing with me about the reasons behind picking a taru, but still insisting that people like being weaker at melee. They don't like the weak melee stats. They just like good mage stats more. Only insane people like being bad at something.

You already mentioned you got bored by reading in previous post, so I guess ;((((((

they are way too long.

So I'm going to make it bold one last time, if you still won't get it, then I have nothing to say, not my problem that you don't want to read.

1. I never "suggest" player to do 1/5 as they are now.

2. I suggest SE to make 1/5 STRONGER THAN EXISTING WS AND TOTALLY USEABLE SO PPL CAN GET MORE THAN 3.

So your suggestion is to make them just as good, but only require 1 merit instead of 5........

I feel I'm just talking to the wall, all the points I made about strength/weakness and making choices you don't seem to get it, and I got the feeling that you're not bothering to read at all, just insist that you're right and this game design(merit/race) is wrong because your taru DD isn't the best. I'm out of this pointless silly arguement unless you can come up with something new.

There is already enough difference between players just based on gear and skill to create individuality. I think your thinking everything is the same now because you see a lot of people in af3 in jeuno. Trust me. They all have different WS / PDT / MDT / EVA / MA / ACC / etc sets, macros, the list goes on. None of them have perfect gear. All of them play differently no matter how hard they try to be the same, and this will never change. If you are really that much in need of recognition for your individuality, try getting a face tattoo, or a really big piercing.

[Afania]

If the guy with ten jobs spends more time on paladin than the guy with just paladin, then he should be better. You shouldn't get to be better at a job just because you didn't level another. The quality of your job should be based on the work you put in to it, not the work you didn't put into another job. My WHM mule shouldn't be better than my mains whm just because i leveled nin, monk, thf, dnc, war, red, blm, sum on my main. He's a mule. I put mad work into my main.
.

Yes, I agree that ppl with 10 job lv and spend more time on PLD should be better than ppl with only one PLD and didn't spend as much time. I said it very clear that ppl who spent the most effort on a job
should be the best, right from the first post. And that's exactly how this game works atm, which I'm happy with and I don't think it needs a change at all. Someone can have 10 jobs lv, not PLD main, and have Aegis/Almace/Ochain/AF3+2. He doesn't have enmity+ merit, but his PLD is still better than a perle PLD main who only has enmity +5 merit. Why are you even worrying about ppl without enmity+ merit but has relic/empy can't beat a perle PLD with nothing but merit?

This is what's it like in this game right now and should just stay the same.

I'm not asking SE to remove the gear/skill difference entirely. There are already gear/skill difference in this game. But I see no reason to remove the merit/race difference, since those difference are very small compare with gear/skill difference. Only ppl who thinks this game is all about who is better and who is the best thinks that's important. If you really think so, you may as well go play a fighting game since every character stats are the same as long as you pick the same character.

This is a RPG, not a competitive game like fighting game, RPG is about personality, about creating background story, emotion, link to your character. And strength/weakness is part of personality. Making decision is part of it, to define the final look of character. Grinding gear/practicing skill has zero decision making element. I'm not asking SE to remove those element entirely, but there should be decision making element about developing your charater.


And I believe that's what SE wanted to, to give room to players to make decision, that's why they keep race/merit system or else they'd delete race/merit/storyline reward already.

No. You need an identity, and your willing to sacrifice other peoples enjoyment to get one because its easier than getting one by working on your gear / skills.
.

Me? Sacrifice other ppl's enjoyment? I'm not even the one who design the game, why is it my fault that this game has race/merit differernce >.> what you replied here isn't even rational. If you're not happy with the game because your character is X stat lower on one of the job due to race/merit, go play other games that has no race/merit system >.>

Now your agreeing with me about the reasons behind picking a taru, but still insisting that people like being weaker at melee. They don't like the weak melee stats. They just like good mage stats more. Only insane people like being bad at something.

I never insist that people like being weaker at melee.........

They just like good mage stats more, yes. Strength and weakness, a taru may hate his low STR, but may love his high INT and MP when playing mage classes.

If you can change race when you change job, or delete the race difference between each character, then they no longer have their mage advantage as a taru. You keep insisting on "weak melee" part as if every taru hates it, why not just let taru BLM main who enjoy playing BLM enjoy their superior stat.......

There is already enough difference between players just based on gear and skill to create individuality. I think your thinking everything is the same now because you see a lot of people in af3 in jeuno. Trust me. They all have different WS / PDT / MDT / EVA / MA / ACC / etc sets, macros, the list goes on. None of them have perfect gear. All of them play differently no matter how hard they try to be the same, and this will never change. If you are really that much in need of recognition for your individuality, try getting a face tattoo, or a really big piercing.

Yes, I agree that everyone has different WS/PDT/MDT etc sets, but the point is, there are "the best" WS/PDT/MDT/EVA set at certain situations because what's optimal is done by math. There are very little decision to be make when picking your gear sets, if your set is different from the best set, that only means your set isn't done, doesn't mean you make a decision to do so. Sometimes when you do get to make decision on gear sets, it's usually sidegrade only. 95% of gear set is if you don't use this set in that situation, you're doing it wrong.

And your definiation of individuality is about getting a face tattoo or big piercing? That's pretty shallow. But it seems you don't understand the concept at all, so w/e. I suggest you can play street fighter since every character you picked has same stat and it's pure skill based when you compete. No offense, SF is really a good game, just that when I control the character in a fighting game that character has nothing to do with me, but only a tool that I used to compete with other ppl since I never make any decision about how that character should develope.

[FrankReynolds]

Yes, I agree that ppl with 10 job lv and spend more time on PLD should be better than ppl with only one PLD and didn't spend as much time. I said it very clear that ppl who spent the most effort on a job
should be the best, right from the first post

Then why not let the guy get his weapon skills?

I'm not asking SE to remove those element entirely, but there should be decision making element about developing your charater.

Decision making should be about choosing whether or not to put in the effort. If all characters are the same because they have run out of things to put the effort into, SE should be adding more stuff for them to do to enhance / customize (which they are planning to do).

And I believe that's what SE wanted to, to give room to players to make decision, that's why they keep race/merit system or else they'd delete race/merit/storyline reward already.

They did to some extent. There are so many different gear swaps / improvements that can be made before you reach the point that changing race is the only thing you can do to improve performance, its ridiculous.

Me? Sacrifice other ppl's enjoyment? I'm not even the one who design the game, why is it my fault that this game has race/merit differernce >.> what you replied here isn't even rational. If you're not happy with the game because your character is X stat lower on one of the job due to race/merit, go play other games that has no race/merit system >.>

Actually I think I'll just state my opinion in the official forum, where they read and take into account players suggestions for changes and then continue playing this game(see bully threads, or the new limit break quest thread encase you were unaware of this).

I never insist that people like being weaker at melee.........

They just like good mage stats more, yes. Strength and weakness, a taru may hate his low STR, but may love his high INT and MP when playing mage classes.

If you can change race when you change job, or delete the race difference between each character, then they no longer have their mage advantage as a taru. You keep insisting on "weak melee" part as if every taru hates it, why not just let taru BLM main who enjoy playing BLM enjoy their superior stat.......

Actually I said:

None picked them (taru) because they like having low HP and Melee stats.

and you said:

your statement of "No one likes them they just accepts it" won't be true.

Insinuating that people do actually like having crappy melee stats.

Yes, I agree that everyone has different WS/PDT/MDT etc sets, but the point is, there are "the best" WS/PDT/MDT/EVA set at certain situations because what's optimal is done by math. There are very little decision to be make when picking your gear sets, if your set is different from the best set, that only means your set isn't done, doesn't mean you make a decision to do so. Sometimes when you do get to make decision on gear sets, it's usually sidegrade only. 95% of gear set is if you don't use this set in that situation, you're doing it wrong.

The same thing will happen with these WS. Limiting them just makes the problem worse. People are going to do the same thing they do with gear. They will math out which WS are the best, and get those 3. If you remove the cap, people at least have the option to merit more of them. It would be nice to have a bad ass Staff WS for my mage jobs, but there is no way I'm picking that and gimping my other jobs. No individuality for me. =/

And your definiation of individuality is about getting a face tattoo or big piercing?

That was clearly sarcasm. Please don't go tattoo your face.

That's pretty shallow. But it seems you don't understand the concept at all, so w/e. I suggest you can play street fighter ......

Nope, I'm gonna keep playing this, because there is a massive pool of gear that I still want (and I'll never have it all) to improve my character, and I will continue to gear based on what is best for me and the time I have available, not best overall. The player who has everything does not exist. Every player in this game is constantly sacrificing one piece of gear or another so that they can go after the one that makes the most sense for them. I don't need artificial limits in place to be an individual.

[Afania]

Then why not let the guy get his weapon skills?

So the problem is that 1/5 being too weak and should be fixed, not merit/race system.

Decision making should be about choosing whether or not to put in the effort. If all characters are the same because they have run out of things to put the effort into, SE should be adding more stuff for them to do to enhance / customize (which they are planning to do).

I don't really agree since it's a RPG and not a competitive game like a fighting game. A RPG shouldn't just let players define their character with only gears, but also that character's unique trait. Having an aegis on your PLD isn't your char's unique trait. What are your character's unique trait? My character is stronger(high STR) but not as smart as your character(low INT), your character is faster(high AGI) but not as durable(low HP) as his character. My character has talent in sword and learn it fast(sword 8/8), but I'm really bad at using a bow(bow 0/8) and so on. Those are the unique trait. That's what merit system/races are for. Deleting this entire system will erase the room for players to define their character with traits.

I can go dress up like MJ or Lady Gaga but I'm not going to become MJ or Lady Gaga since I don't have their unique trait. Just like face tatoo or big piercing or an Aegis can never define a person. What you're good at, have talent in, and what you're better/worse than other ppl in certain aspect is that character's unique trait.

Other RPGs allows players to define your character with more than just gears, idk why FFXI shouldn't just because you can job change. Unless 5% of performance is omgwtf the end of world. And it's not, you're not gonna lose 100 dollar if your NIN was 1% weaker than another NIN due to combat skill merits.

Tbh atm those differences between character are only like 3~5% of this game max, 95% of time you still compete with gear/skill/knowledge and so on, and you can still make up the character innate difference with effort. There are no point to make that 5% into 0% at all, in fact that's even more meaningful, to make up your character's innate weakness with effort is way more interesting than no weakness right from the beginning. Just leave that merit system alone and enjoy the variety between each char ;/

Actually I said:

and you said:

Insinuating that people do actually like having crappy melee stats.

Oh I thought you mean no one likes merit system/race. My bad. But yes, no one likes weak melee stats on melee job, doesn't mean everyone would want race/merit system to be erased.

The same thing will happen with these WS. Limiting them just makes the problem worse. People are going to do the same thing they do with gear. They will math out which WS are the best, and get those 3. If you remove the cap, people at least have the option to merit more of them. It would be nice to have a bad ass Staff WS for my mage jobs, but there is no way I'm picking that and gimping my other jobs. No individuality for me. =/

No the problem is really just 1/5 being too weak, not the cap on merit system. If there are no cap on merit system, how do you define your char with your traits? You will just max everything and lost uniqueness as a character. The cap on the merit system is there for the role-playing purpose, idk what's the super big deal over it, that you must remove it. Unless you value competition more than role-playing, but that's really not SE's vision of this game unless they change it.

[Economizer]

I wish I could say I love the comments about people not changing things on a forum that is supposed to be for player feedback, but I could never love the inane.

The cap on the merit system is there for the role-playing purpose, idk what's the super big deal over it, that you must remove it.

For a role play element, they certainly affect damage numbers in a large way. How about instead of hurting everyone else's ability to play what they want without having to spend eight hours remeriting a category or having to get a new character if they want to play a different job like idiots do in crappy MMOs not worth playing, we have no cap on the weapon skill merits.

Instead we have a cap on a specifically titled "Role Play Merits" section. There will be a cap of ten merits in the category, and it will have the following items in it:

• Red Tint
  Turns character model slightly more red.
• Green Tint
  Turns character model slightly more green.
• Blue Tint
  Turns character model slightly more blue.
• Tarutaru-izer
  Talk more-ithy like a Tarutaru.
• Mithra-izer
  Talk morrre like a Mithra.
• Knight-izer
  Talk moreth like a Knight.
• Pirate-izer
  Talk more like a Pirate, mate.
• Elite Mentor Icon
  Advanced Mentor Icon. Turns off after a set amount of time unless you have full merits.
• Victory Music
  Victory Fanfare is longer with each merit.

This way, nobody will be denied from a party over weapon skill merits ever, but you will still be able to show how much you care about role playing.

[FrankReynolds]

Edited for brevity

I don't wanna keep this long post stuff going, so I'll sum it up. I think advocating artificial weakness in place of increased power through play is a poor approach. Making the weapon skills more powerful at 1/5 would be the same as allowing people to merit them all 5/5, except that it would require less work to get them.

For a role play element, they certainly affect damage numbers in a large way. How about instead of hurting everyone else's ability to play what they want without having to spend eight hours remeriting a category or having to get a new character if they want to play a different job like idiots do in crappy MMOs not worth playing, we have no cap on the weapon skill merits.

Instead we have a cap on a specifically titled "Role Play Merits" section. There will be a cap of ten merits in the category, and it will have the following items in it:

...........

This way, nobody will be denied from a party over weapon skill merits ever, but you will still be able to show how much you care about role playing.

Now this is a good idea for giving characters personality. Things that don't make the game frustrating to play.