Cure V

[Motenten]

Since those arguing for Cure V are doing a poor job of it, I thought I'd play devil's advocate and weigh in with a counter to Hyrist.

Comparitive healing performance.

One point that must be addressed is the apparent full maintainability of the MP cost of these cures compared to whm's potential. Whm can spam Cure V all day and barely notice. Rdm and sch have better MP recovery options than whm, so they 'should' be able to perform at the same level, at least with respect to this one spell.

First, we must consider MP expenditure rate. For these purposes, we will assume that the mage is casting nothing but Cure V.


Amount cured per spell:

Note: Found an error in the wiki. The scale values given for Cure V after the soft cap are half what they should be; between soft cap and hard cap, scale should be 2 instead of 1; after hard cap, scale should be 17/3 instead of 17/6. This somewhat impacts the comparitive scale I used in my earlier posts, and I may need to revisit them.

Assumed Cure Potency of 50% for each; gear for rdm and sch only guesstimated.

Whm:
- Assumed capped healing magic of 396 + 25 gear
- 87 mnd (estimate) +54 gear
- 80 vit (estimate)
- Power: 755
- Cured: 1086

Rdm:
- Light Arts healing magic of 376
- 83 mnd (estimate) +54 gear?
- 77 vit (estimate)
- Power: 752
- Cured: 1084

Sch:
- Light Arts healing magic of 376
- 81 mnd (estimate) +49 gear?
- 77 vit (estimate)
- Power: 731
- Guaranteed light weather: +10%
- Cured: 1181




Cost per spell:
Whm:
- 135 base
- Assumed /sch for Light Arts: -13
- Conserve MP: -8.5
- AF3+2 pants: -54
- Total: 59.5

Rdm:
- 135 base
- Assumed /sch for Light Arts: -13
- Conserve MP: -8.5
- Total: 113.5

Sch:
- 135 base
- Assumed Light Arts: -13
- Conserve MP: -8.5
- Total: 113.5


MP Recovery rates:
Whm:
- /sch Sublimation ~~3 MP/tick equivalent
- Refresh gear of 5/tick (excluding Moonshade Earring and refresh hairpin as being on the greater rarity side)
- Total: 8/tick

Rdm:
- Refresh II - 7 MP/tick
- Refresh gear of 5/tick
- Total: 12/tick

Sch:
- Sublimation ~~ 7 MP/tick equivalent (8 at 95? need to check)
- Refresh gear of 4/tick
- Total: 11/tick


Time required to recover MP spent:
Whm:
- 59.5 / 8 = 7.4 ticks

Rdm:
- 113.5 / 12 = 9.5 ticks

Sch:
- 113.5 / 11 = 10.3 ticks


Recast for Cure V with a bit of haste is about 2.5 ticks.

Net MP cost if recasting every 4 ticks:

Whm:
- 3.4 * 8 = 27.2 MP

Rdm:
- 5.5 * 12 = 66 MP

Sch:
- 6.3 * 11 = 69.3 MP


Time it would take to run out of MP:

Whm:
- ~1000 MP / 27.2 = 37.8 4-tick blocks = 441 seconds (7 min, 21 seconds)

Rdm:
- ~1800 MP / 66 = 27.3 4-tick blocks = 327 seconds (5 min, 27 seconds)

Sch (assumed /rdm):
- ~1800 MP / 69.3 = 26.0 4-tick blocks = 312 seconds (5 min, 12 seconds)

Though sch can extend that a bit with more strategems than the others have available, and shouldn't need to cast quite as often due to higher cure potential.


If the rdm is subbing /whm for curagas or /blm for stun, its values would be revised to:

Cost per spell:
Rdm/whm:
- 135 base
- Total: 135
Rdm/blm:
- 135 base
- Conserve MP: -9.5
- Total: 125.5

Time required to recover MP spent:
Rdm/whm:
- 135 / 12 = 11.25 ticks
Rdm/blm:
- 125.5 / 12 = 10.5 ticks


Net MP cost if recasting every 4 ticks:
Rdm/whm:
- 7.25 * 12 = 87 MP
Rdm/whm:
- 6.5 * 12 = 78 MP

Time it would take to run out of MP:
Rdm/whm:
- ~1800 MP / 87 = 20.7 4-tick blocks = 248 seconds (4 min, 8 seconds)
Rdm/blm:
- ~1800 MP / 78 = 23.1 4-tick blocks = 277 seconds (4 min, 37 seconds)



Overall, you're looking at 4-5 minutes of near-constant Cure V spam before rdm or sch would exhaust themselves and whm's longevity would give it the lead.

At what point would Convert equalize the picture? In the above where you're exhausting yourself in about 5 minutes, that means each MP pool only lasted about 2.5 minutes, and you burned out your reserve long before it could be replenished.

Let's say fully merited rdm Convert. You need one MP pool to last 8 min 20 sec so that you can Convert back to a full pool. So, taking half the MP used (900) and making it last 500 seconds means a net loss of no more than 1.8 MP/second, or 5.4 MP/tick. Given 12 MP/tick refresh, that means you can use 17.4 MP per tick.

Number of ticks a Cure V would need to be spread across to make it cost 17.4 MP per tick:
rdm/sch: 6.5
rdm/whm: 7.8
rdm/blm: 7.2

So something like 20-23 seconds between Cure V casts in order to last a Convert cycle.

For sch, it has to last 600 seconds, meaning 1.5 MP/second or 4.5 MP/tick. With 11/tick refresh, that's 15.5 MP/tick usable. Shortest interval for Cure V in order to last a Convert cycle: 22 seconds.

Rate at which a whm could use Cure V without exhausting themselves: one Cure V every 22 seconds.

So for perpetual longevity when treated in isolation, all three jobs have about the same restriction on casting rates, in the 20-22 second region, though rdm/sch seems to have a bit of an edge.

Suppose you add a brd to the mix, and get Ballad II & III with +2 Ballad from AF3 and instrument, totalling 9 MP/tick. How does that affect each of the above?

Whm: 10.5 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Rdm/sch: 13 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Rdm/whm: 15.3 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Rdm/blm: 14.3 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Sch: 13.9 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP

And now whm is back to having a significant edge over the others in the rate at which it can spam spells, being able to cast about 25%-30% more often. Because of whm's lower spell costs and lower starting refresh, additional refresh is significantly more useful for them.


Other features that whm brings to the table that the others do not: Cure VI (a huge waste of MP, but can be useful in emergencies), Curagas (situationally useful), cureskin (useful in some circumstances, but doesn't work with curagas), better barspells, and situationally useful -na advantages (Esuna and Sacrifice).

Rdm brings the potential for Stun if subbing /blm, and both rdm and sch have the option of switching over to nuking.

Basically, pretty much all of whm's advantages would be 'situational', though those situations are likely to be prominant in any difficult fights (AOE damage, magical damage, fights lasting long enough that rationing Convert matters (more than 15 minutes), rapid curebombing with Cure V + Cure VI). At the same time, rdm's nuking potential drops considerably for those same fights. Sch can do reasonably well nuking, but has to choose between the two styles and generally stick with just one at a time.


One could then argue that there is a reasonable balance among the three jobs most commonly regarded as 'healers' if you allowed all three to have Cure V. In difficult fights whm still has a clear edge, and in less difficult fights all three can perform adequately while rdm and sch have the option to bring their other advantages to the fore.


The primary downside is that whm is now suffering a (perceived) deficit in overall capability due to its lack on the damage front compared to rdm and sch. That deficit can be turned around and shown to be an advantage for rdm, which means that any further grants to rdm (either in the melee or enfeebling departments) are likely to be pulled back or severely curtailed, lest players begin the "nerf rdm" chant.

At the same time, while greater curing power may mean more incentive to force players into that role, it also means less time actually spent curing since you can get done with one spell what used to take two. Less time curing means more time that can be used on other actions, and so increases its usefulness as a whole.

[Raksha]

Should probably include the twilight cape bonus for SCH if you're going to count permanent light weather.

[Motenten]

Eh, that's a pretty minor bonus. Goes from 4% cure potency from the new cape to 5% bonus applied after potency. So either 1.5 * 1.1 or 1.46 * 1.15, which is 1.65 to 1.679, or a 1.75% increase. Worthwhile, certainly, but has minimal impact on the numbers I was focusing on, which is more about the rate at which casting is maintainable.

[saevel]

And in which world are you always curing exactly for the max HP amount? This is where paper math fails in reference to WHM +2 pants. You won't be getting back full amounts each and every cast, and most definitely not outside abyssea.

Tank has 1500~1600 HP assuming full merits and good tanking gear (Haste / Acc / Attack + PDT + shield). At 1K per cure V you'd have to wait for the tank to get into 500 ~ 600 HP before casting it. Otherwise your wasting part of the MP regeneration bonus on +2 pants.

Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.

Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.

So even with all those assumptions, WHM barely pass's RDM in MP longevity. It shouldn't barely pass it, it should completely destroy it.

And finally, the argument isn't whether RDM will or won't be better then WHM with Cure V, we all assumed that RDM should be vastly inferior. Your argument actually supports the "no Cure V" group as it shows that RDM isn't far behind WHM in actual cure power. Add that to RDM and you get main healing + buffing + debuffing + nuking + crowd control. None of those are the best, but their all "just good enough" to make due. You won't be putting a RDM into a tank alliance for main healing, you'll be sticking them with 4~5 DD's in the "DD party" and having them spam Cure V over and over again until they die of boredom. Cure V would lock RDM to two subs, /WHM and /SCH. This is because DD's will demand things like paralyna, silena, erase and cursna along with the usually "Haste me B****" demands.

SE finally has a chance to give RDM unique roles and abilities after years of being forced to be a mediocre healer. Giving RDM "Cure V" would erase that chance and we're back to EXACTLY where we were in 2005/2006. Instead of "Cure IV, Haste, Refresh" it's would be "Cure V, Haste, Refresh II". I refuse to play as a job that is remembered only for three spells.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.

Stop using gimps as your measuring bar. All 4 items are easy to get. I see plenty of Whms Brds Blms Rdms etc. with the +2 magian staff on my server and even people's mules have finished the staff so no it is not difficult.

Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.

This has nothing to do with /sch's mp efficiency.

So even with all those assumptions, WHM barely pass's RDM in MP longevity for single target curing. It shouldn't barely pass it, it should completely destroy it.

I'm not sure why you're okay with Rdm with native Refresh II + Emp+2 pants bonus and merited Convert not only still losing to Whm in MP longevity, but you want Whm to be even better than it already is?

And finally, the argument isn't whether RDM will or won't be better then WHM with Cure V, we all assumed that RDM should be vastly inferior. Your argument actually supports the "no Cure V" group as it shows that RDM isn't far behind WHM in actual cure power for single target cures]. Add that to RDM and you get main healing + buffing + debuffing + nuking + crowd control. None of those are the best, but their all "just good enough" to make due.

Bolded the part you left out.

Since you somehow haven't noticed, Whm is better at number 1 and 2, passable at 3, worse at 4, worse at 5 if /sch and passable /Rdm. So I will say your 'just good enough' statement applies to them as well.

You won't be putting a RDM into a tank alliance for main healing, you'll be sticking them with 4~5 DD's in the "DD party" and having them spam Cure V over and over again until they die of boredom. Cure V would lock RDM to two subs, /WHM and /SCH. This is because DD's will demand things like paralyna, silena, erase and cursna along with the usually "Haste me B****" demands.

/Sch is already our best mage sub, /Blm (or for special people like you, /drk) will still be used for Stun, /Nin will still be used for shadows/meleeing. /Whm is for Stona/easy access barspells that's it. It actually says a lot that your DDs are making such foul demands at you.

SE finally has a chance to give RDM unique roles and abilities after years of being forced to be a mediocre healer. Giving RDM "Cure V" would erase that chance and we're back to EXACTLY where we were in 2005/2006. Instead of "Cure IV, Haste, Refresh" it's would be "Cure V, Haste, Refresh II". I refuse to play as a job that is remembered only for three spells.

And this goes to show you're stuck in a mentality for a situation that no longer exists.

[Quetzacoatl]

And this goes to show you're stuck in a mentality for a situation that no longer exists.

For now. For now.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And one that won't regardless of learning it or not. If you didn't need C5 you didn't need much curing power in the first place - Whm is superfluous.

You need C5 - You're fighting something strong enough to warrant extra healing power - Whm is a clear lead for such fights in single target and Aoe curing and buffing and damage mitigation.

[Motenten]

And in which world are you always curing exactly for the max HP amount? This is where paper math fails in reference to WHM +2 pants. You won't be getting back full amounts each and every cast, and most definitely not outside abyssea.

Valid point. I was conflating the cureskin effect (which gives full potency regardless of how much you actually cured for) with the whm af3+2 pants. As such this can be considered the upper limit of whm's longevity.

Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.

It doesn't matter what gear set I choose, someone will argue that it's not a valid set to work with. As such I just chose the easiest to justify: the standard top-end gear.

Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.

I find that losing sublimation to damage taken is a rare event, and as such won't try to figure its effects into the model. The model itself is obviously simplified for the basic reason that I'm trying to find the limits of certain values. If you wish to argue against it, you need to present math showing what variances cause the model to diverge significantly, and what degree of variance is necessary to cause that deviation.

For example, at what amount cured (due to the AF3 pants) does whm's perpetual-MP casting rate drop to match sch or rdm's when factoring in a brd?

For simplicity, I'll look at 13 seconds for rdm and 14 seconds for sch, compared to the base 10.5 for whm.

13 s = 4.33 ticks
14 s = 4.66 ticks

whm refresh rate w/brd: 17/tick

Amount of MP recovered in 4.33 and 4.66 ticks at 17/tick: 73.6 and 79.2 MP.

Base cost of Cure 5 without AF3 pants: 113.5

Pants savings required: 39.9 and 34.3

Amount cured to get those savings: 798 and 686

So if the whm is curing for 700-800 HP per cure, they'll be able to maintain perpetual MP while casting at the same rate as rdm or sch.

Further, given that they're curing that quickly and the target is still taking damage, it follows that cureskin is being fully utilized. 800 HP cures with AF3+2 body give a 280 point stoneskin, which means that the whm would be covering for pretty much the same amount of damage per cast (1080) as the rdm (~1085).



Also, while given brief mention in the original post, a closer look at sch's strategem use is probably in order.

Given that strategems for sch main refresh at one every 45 seconds, and given the rough range of perpetual recast rates with brd (10-15 seconds), we could reasonably suppose one use of Penury every 4th cast. With Conserve MP, that works out to an average cost of 62.3 MP instead of 113.5 MP. Four casts would thus cost 113.5*3 + 62.3 = 402.8 MP, or an average of 100.7 MP per cast.

At 11 MP/tick refresh, that's 9.2 ticks to recover the MP (without brd), and a net loss of 57.2 MP per cast (12 second recast rate). Longevity would be 6 minutes 17 seconds before running out of MP. That would put sch well above rdm, but still below the ideal whm value.

Add in brd and the rate at which it can cast and maintain its MP within a Convert cycle is one Cure V every 12.3 seconds.


Whm would then need to cure for 900 per Cure V to maintain a rate on par with sch (one per 12 seconds).


And since, given your tone, you do not quite understand the purpose of my post, I'll reiterate: I personally do not think it would be appropriate to give rdm Cure V (I'm more inclined to allow it for sch), but I'm trying to make a good faith effort to argue in its favor so as to get a better idea of the actual comparisons involved.

Currently my conclusion is this: Adding Cure V to rdm would not drastically overshadow whm, and give rdm a decently useful position as a secondary healer on difficult fights, and allow it to be a main healer on easier fights, theoretically increasing player's options for who they bring as a healer (actual playerbase trends are of course more difficult to guess).

However it would also mean that rdm would forever be stuck in its current fairly mediocre state with respect to any melee or enfeebling enhancements that might otherwise be considered. I, personally, would greatly prefer expansion of its enfeebling specialties instead of a bland "slap a band-aid on it" approach. Whether the dev team has the creativity and the skill to pull that off, though, I can't say.

[Vold]

Why this thread has reached 200 posts boggles my mind. RDM without cure V by now is pure insanity and a load of hogwash. This ain't even remotely in the same league as Utsusemi San, for example. Why the hell is this even a debate? Are people just trolling each other? WHM will destroy RDM even if it had cure VI so I don't know why RDM doesn't have cure V yet. If it and SCH reach 99 without that spell it will be one of the greatest injustices I've ever seen in this games history.

WHM has a solid #1 lead for healer. RDM having access to cure V is never going to make the slightest difference to that lead. What it will do for RDM is make it once more a viable #2 healer to spot heal for the WHM. That is why you give RDM cure V and this thread should end now. But it won't, because people don't want to think about jobs working together as a team to fit the roles they are designed for, they just want their job to be better than the other period so they are ensured invites on the job they want.

Yep, this is FFXI, alright.

[saevel]

@Motenten

I apologize if my tone was off, I've been dealing this these people for too long I think.

I was bringing up those points to illustrate that even at its best, WHM is barely ahead of RDM for longevity, otherwise known as brute cure power. Giving RDM Cure V would put it close enough to WHM that it would be determined "good enough" for main healing duties. What many of the pro camp here doesn't realize, or they do and are being dishonest, is that giving RDM Cure V would put it back into the exact same position as it was in 2005/2006. Forever locked into three spells (Haste Cure Refresh). That is a very very bad thing. RDM's don't want to be stuck main healing four to five melee's, its stressful and ultimately its a suck position to be forced into. Of course you have many people coming in that have absolutely zero intentions of playing the job and instead want to use other RDM's to heal them rather then having to find a WHM. Or worse, they play RDM but only as a method to acquire gear for their PUP, BST, DRG, SMN, COR or what have you. They don't care about the job nor actually enjoying the job, but just it's viability / desirability as a loot whore.