Cure V

[saevel]

And in which world are you always curing exactly for the max HP amount? This is where paper math fails in reference to WHM +2 pants. You won't be getting back full amounts each and every cast, and most definitely not outside abyssea.

Tank has 1500~1600 HP assuming full merits and good tanking gear (Haste / Acc / Attack + PDT + shield). At 1K per cure V you'd have to wait for the tank to get into 500 ~ 600 HP before casting it. Otherwise your wasting part of the MP regeneration bonus on +2 pants.

Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.

Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.

So even with all those assumptions, WHM barely pass's RDM in MP longevity. It shouldn't barely pass it, it should completely destroy it.

And finally, the argument isn't whether RDM will or won't be better then WHM with Cure V, we all assumed that RDM should be vastly inferior. Your argument actually supports the "no Cure V" group as it shows that RDM isn't far behind WHM in actual cure power. Add that to RDM and you get main healing + buffing + debuffing + nuking + crowd control. None of those are the best, but their all "just good enough" to make due. You won't be putting a RDM into a tank alliance for main healing, you'll be sticking them with 4~5 DD's in the "DD party" and having them spam Cure V over and over again until they die of boredom. Cure V would lock RDM to two subs, /WHM and /SCH. This is because DD's will demand things like paralyna, silena, erase and cursna along with the usually "Haste me B****" demands.

SE finally has a chance to give RDM unique roles and abilities after years of being forced to be a mediocre healer. Giving RDM "Cure V" would erase that chance and we're back to EXACTLY where we were in 2005/2006. Instead of "Cure IV, Haste, Refresh" it's would be "Cure V, Haste, Refresh II". I refuse to play as a job that is remembered only for three spells.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.

Stop using gimps as your measuring bar. All 4 items are easy to get. I see plenty of Whms Brds Blms Rdms etc. with the +2 magian staff on my server and even people's mules have finished the staff so no it is not difficult.

Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.

This has nothing to do with /sch's mp efficiency.

So even with all those assumptions, WHM barely pass's RDM in MP longevity for single target curing. It shouldn't barely pass it, it should completely destroy it.

I'm not sure why you're okay with Rdm with native Refresh II + Emp+2 pants bonus and merited Convert not only still losing to Whm in MP longevity, but you want Whm to be even better than it already is?

And finally, the argument isn't whether RDM will or won't be better then WHM with Cure V, we all assumed that RDM should be vastly inferior. Your argument actually supports the "no Cure V" group as it shows that RDM isn't far behind WHM in actual cure power for single target cures]. Add that to RDM and you get main healing + buffing + debuffing + nuking + crowd control. None of those are the best, but their all "just good enough" to make due.

Bolded the part you left out.

Since you somehow haven't noticed, Whm is better at number 1 and 2, passable at 3, worse at 4, worse at 5 if /sch and passable /Rdm. So I will say your 'just good enough' statement applies to them as well.

You won't be putting a RDM into a tank alliance for main healing, you'll be sticking them with 4~5 DD's in the "DD party" and having them spam Cure V over and over again until they die of boredom. Cure V would lock RDM to two subs, /WHM and /SCH. This is because DD's will demand things like paralyna, silena, erase and cursna along with the usually "Haste me B****" demands.

/Sch is already our best mage sub, /Blm (or for special people like you, /drk) will still be used for Stun, /Nin will still be used for shadows/meleeing. /Whm is for Stona/easy access barspells that's it. It actually says a lot that your DDs are making such foul demands at you.

SE finally has a chance to give RDM unique roles and abilities after years of being forced to be a mediocre healer. Giving RDM "Cure V" would erase that chance and we're back to EXACTLY where we were in 2005/2006. Instead of "Cure IV, Haste, Refresh" it's would be "Cure V, Haste, Refresh II". I refuse to play as a job that is remembered only for three spells.

And this goes to show you're stuck in a mentality for a situation that no longer exists.

[Quetzacoatl]

And this goes to show you're stuck in a mentality for a situation that no longer exists.

For now. For now.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And one that won't regardless of learning it or not. If you didn't need C5 you didn't need much curing power in the first place - Whm is superfluous.

You need C5 - You're fighting something strong enough to warrant extra healing power - Whm is a clear lead for such fights in single target and Aoe curing and buffing and damage mitigation.

[Motenten]

And in which world are you always curing exactly for the max HP amount? This is where paper math fails in reference to WHM +2 pants. You won't be getting back full amounts each and every cast, and most definitely not outside abyssea.

Valid point. I was conflating the cureskin effect (which gives full potency regardless of how much you actually cured for) with the whm af3+2 pants. As such this can be considered the upper limit of whm's longevity.

Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.

It doesn't matter what gear set I choose, someone will argue that it's not a valid set to work with. As such I just chose the easiest to justify: the standard top-end gear.

Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.

I find that losing sublimation to damage taken is a rare event, and as such won't try to figure its effects into the model. The model itself is obviously simplified for the basic reason that I'm trying to find the limits of certain values. If you wish to argue against it, you need to present math showing what variances cause the model to diverge significantly, and what degree of variance is necessary to cause that deviation.

For example, at what amount cured (due to the AF3 pants) does whm's perpetual-MP casting rate drop to match sch or rdm's when factoring in a brd?

For simplicity, I'll look at 13 seconds for rdm and 14 seconds for sch, compared to the base 10.5 for whm.

13 s = 4.33 ticks
14 s = 4.66 ticks

whm refresh rate w/brd: 17/tick

Amount of MP recovered in 4.33 and 4.66 ticks at 17/tick: 73.6 and 79.2 MP.

Base cost of Cure 5 without AF3 pants: 113.5

Pants savings required: 39.9 and 34.3

Amount cured to get those savings: 798 and 686

So if the whm is curing for 700-800 HP per cure, they'll be able to maintain perpetual MP while casting at the same rate as rdm or sch.

Further, given that they're curing that quickly and the target is still taking damage, it follows that cureskin is being fully utilized. 800 HP cures with AF3+2 body give a 280 point stoneskin, which means that the whm would be covering for pretty much the same amount of damage per cast (1080) as the rdm (~1085).



Also, while given brief mention in the original post, a closer look at sch's strategem use is probably in order.

Given that strategems for sch main refresh at one every 45 seconds, and given the rough range of perpetual recast rates with brd (10-15 seconds), we could reasonably suppose one use of Penury every 4th cast. With Conserve MP, that works out to an average cost of 62.3 MP instead of 113.5 MP. Four casts would thus cost 113.5*3 + 62.3 = 402.8 MP, or an average of 100.7 MP per cast.

At 11 MP/tick refresh, that's 9.2 ticks to recover the MP (without brd), and a net loss of 57.2 MP per cast (12 second recast rate). Longevity would be 6 minutes 17 seconds before running out of MP. That would put sch well above rdm, but still below the ideal whm value.

Add in brd and the rate at which it can cast and maintain its MP within a Convert cycle is one Cure V every 12.3 seconds.


Whm would then need to cure for 900 per Cure V to maintain a rate on par with sch (one per 12 seconds).


And since, given your tone, you do not quite understand the purpose of my post, I'll reiterate: I personally do not think it would be appropriate to give rdm Cure V (I'm more inclined to allow it for sch), but I'm trying to make a good faith effort to argue in its favor so as to get a better idea of the actual comparisons involved.

Currently my conclusion is this: Adding Cure V to rdm would not drastically overshadow whm, and give rdm a decently useful position as a secondary healer on difficult fights, and allow it to be a main healer on easier fights, theoretically increasing player's options for who they bring as a healer (actual playerbase trends are of course more difficult to guess).

However it would also mean that rdm would forever be stuck in its current fairly mediocre state with respect to any melee or enfeebling enhancements that might otherwise be considered. I, personally, would greatly prefer expansion of its enfeebling specialties instead of a bland "slap a band-aid on it" approach. Whether the dev team has the creativity and the skill to pull that off, though, I can't say.

[Vold]

Why this thread has reached 200 posts boggles my mind. RDM without cure V by now is pure insanity and a load of hogwash. This ain't even remotely in the same league as Utsusemi San, for example. Why the hell is this even a debate? Are people just trolling each other? WHM will destroy RDM even if it had cure VI so I don't know why RDM doesn't have cure V yet. If it and SCH reach 99 without that spell it will be one of the greatest injustices I've ever seen in this games history.

WHM has a solid #1 lead for healer. RDM having access to cure V is never going to make the slightest difference to that lead. What it will do for RDM is make it once more a viable #2 healer to spot heal for the WHM. That is why you give RDM cure V and this thread should end now. But it won't, because people don't want to think about jobs working together as a team to fit the roles they are designed for, they just want their job to be better than the other period so they are ensured invites on the job they want.

Yep, this is FFXI, alright.

[CapriciousOne]

Why this thread has reached 200 posts boggles my mind. RDM without cure V by now is pure insanity and a load of hogwash. This ain't even remotely in the same league as Utsusemi San, for example. Why the hell is this even a debate? Are people just trolling each other? WHM will destroy RDM even if it had cure VI so I don't know why RDM doesn't have cure V yet. If it and SCH reach 99 without that spell it will be one of the greatest injustices I've ever seen in this games history.

WHM has a solid #1 lead for healer. RDM having access to cure V is never going to make the slightest difference to that lead. What it will do for RDM is make it once more a viable #2 healer to spot heal for the WHM. That is why you give RDM cure V and this thread should end now. But it won't, because people don't want to think about jobs working together as a team to fit the roles they are designed for, they just want their job to be better than the other period so they are ensured invites on the job they want.

Yep, this is FFXI, alright.

A- freaking-MEN bro, I couldn't have said it better myself and has always been my issue. I dont like main healing myself and will refuse invites if one even ask me to. Even further if I am in the party already and ask me to do so I will leave it. Sure I can fulfill the role but the fact of the matter is whm is designed to fulfill that role BY DESIGN. I and i'm sure many other RDM would have no problem lending the WHM their support but expecting to do it all just is ass backwards to me when another job is more qualified. It is more about ego and wanting thier favorite job to be better than everybody elses for most people. I just ask for stuff that make my solo game more manageable myself. I dont need to be better than everybody else I just like not being dependent on others to get crap done and is why I chose RDM in the first place. Sometimes I think people lose sight of that with this job. You're not meant to be the best at everything just sufficient enough to get shit done by leveraging ALL of your skills not MELEE only or MAGIC only, but BOTH. Anything more than that to me is just greedy and is a display of complete incompetence at the job and the game.

[saevel]

A- freaking-MEN bro, I couldn't have said it better myself and has always been my issue. I dont like main healing myself and will refuse invites if one even ask me to. Even further if I am in the party already and ask me to do so I will leave it. Sure I can fulfill the role but the fact of the matter is whm is designed to fulfill that role BY DESIGN. I and i'm sure many other RDM would have no problem lending the WHM their support but expecting to do it all just is ass backwards to me when another job is more qualified. It is more about ego and wanting thier favorite job to be better than everybody elses for most people. I just ask for stuff that make my solo game more manageable myself. I dont need to be better than everybody else I just like not being dependent on others to get crap done and is why I chose RDM in the first place. Sometimes I think people lose sight of that with this job. You're not meant to be the best at everything just sufficient enough to get shit done by leveraging ALL of your skills not MELEE only or MAGIC only, but BOTH. Anything more than that to me is just greedy and is a display of complete incompetence at the job and the game.

While I support you in theory, one of the previous posters has already demonstrated that a RDM with Cure V wouldn't be very far behind WHM in cure power. Blame it on SE's rotten scaling of Healing Magic Skill as it effects Cures. In real use people would just see "Cure V" and immediately throw the RDM into a main healing spot. They've been doing that since 2004, it's not gonna change all of a sudden. Doing this would immediately end any and all enhancements SE would do to RDM. Cause no matter what, for all eternity people would just see RDM has a healer -1. Not the best but "good enough", and that's all people care about. Heck I've seen many alliances try to main heal with RDM's right now, doesn't work very well, and you get one tired RDM, but they thing Cure = main healer.

I don't mind supporting a WHM and taking on part of the healing load, and Cure V would make that tons easier. But I would get to "support" for about two weeks until people noticed that you can just do WHM + RDM/WHM x 2 in an 18 main alliance instead of WHM x 3. Of course the WHM would take care of the two tanks, but the RDM's would be forced to babysit the melee's or if he's lucky the BLMs.

[CapriciousOne]

While I support you in theory, one of the previous posters has already demonstrated that a RDM with Cure V wouldn't be very far behind WHM in cure power. Blame it on SE's rotten scaling of Healing Magic Skill as it effects Cures. In real use people would just see "Cure V" and immediately throw the RDM into a main healing spot. They've been doing that since 2004, it's not gonna change all of a sudden. Doing this would immediately end any and all enhancements SE would do to RDM. Cause no matter what, for all eternity people would just see RDM has a healer -1. Not the best but "good enough", and that's all people care about. Heck I've seen many alliances try to main heal with RDM's right now, doesn't work very well, and you get one tired RDM, but they thing Cure = main healer.

I don't mind supporting a WHM and taking on part of the healing load, and Cure V would make that tons easier. But I would get to "support" for about two weeks until people noticed that you can just do WHM + RDM/WHM x 2 in an 18 main alliance instead of WHM x 3. Of course the WHM would take care of the two tanks, but the RDM's would be forced to babysit the melee's or if he's lucky the BLMs.

Well again as far as the player base attitude goes, when will more of you RDM just give them the finger and not accept the role they keep placing upon you if you arent satisfied with fulfilling it? I mean grow some fucking balls already. I mean for a single job that basically can substitue for any and every job there is why arent we uniting against this bull shit? RDM will not as good as the specialists can still be sufficient enough to get shit done. RDM is essentially a nuker, healer, damage dealer, enfeebler, and tank even if it is to a lesser degree of the specialist. Essentially we are an entire party on our own so to me it is only logical to put 6, 12, or even 18 RDM together and say the hell with everybody else and let them fend for theirselves WITHOUT US. I see it as they need us more than we need them so SCREW THEM ALL !!! LMFAO let them all die without us.

[saevel]

Well again as far as the player base attitude goes, when will more of you RDM just give them the finger and not accept the role they keep placing upon you if you arent satisfied with fulfilling it? I mean grow some fucking balls already. I mean for a single job that basically can substitue for any and every job there is why arent we uniting against this bull shit? RDM will not as good as the specialists can still be sufficient enough to get shit done. RDM is essentially a nuker, healer, damage dealer, enfeebler, and tank even if it is to a lesser degree of the specialist. Essentially we are an entire party on our own so to me it is only logical to put 6, 12, or even 18 RDM together and say the hell with everybody else and let them fend for theirselves WITHOUT US. I see it as they need us more than we need them so SCREW THEM ALL !!! LMFAO let them all die without us.

I already do that, or well my LS has me come RDM/NIN or RDM/DRK pretty much all the time now. I'm not concerned about my placement or play style, this is for the up and coming RDM's or those who what to try this style of play. Giving RDM Cure V would actually make my job easier as my /ma "Cure IV" <stal> macro would be much more efficient.

That being said, the vast majority of players still think of RDM as a "healer -1" to be used when a WHM isn't around. And the only way to break them of this mentality is to show case RDM's other assets and skillsets, which requires a fundamental shift in how people think. Just tossing Cure V will further enforce the idea of RDM being a WHM-1. It's why I would much rather us have some other form of healing via Enhancing Magic, likely through a Regen type spell.